Sleepy Hollow in the Media

[phoenics]

Ok, so there are three things I thought of as a response after reading your post.

 

1. I agree that it would do a world of good to see her more in interviews and for people to see how excited she is about playing Abbie Mills. I really enjoyed the SAG foundation interview with TM, NB, OJ and LG because I got insight into all of their individual processes and could see how much each of them enjoyed their part. But like I will go on more about in my second point, I genuinely believe that if a person is not junket/interview compatible, forcing them always leads to disaster. They almost always make people less pleased than when they didn't hear from the actor.

 

2. As you said she's an introvert. She doesn't do much to create hype or whatever and maybe she should. But I simply doubt  it. A lot of the actresses I really like, and quite a few of them are in genre stuff, don't even have a twitter account and even if they do, it's low key and rarely self promoting. It doesn't affect their popularity and in fact people like them better because they feel more genuine. They get a small but substantial glimpse into who is the person they're a fan of and appreciate the little insights and respect their privacy. Example: Jennifer Lawrence! doesn't have a twitter account, barely seen when there is no promo and yet people love her and enjoy the little pieces they get when she does appear because none of it is forced. Maybe it's a fake image but it relies on the balance of not being seen much until promo time. And, what a coincidence, her fans focus on her, her character, and what she feels and does as opposed to the contrived love triangle she is a part of. She basically got super lucky and skipped the early young adult phase where you are only half a ship name (although I think it's changing because YA are much more female driven these days). So basically that type of self promotion is only good when you're planning on being part of a long term ship, which NB was/is not. I don't think she wants to do the show for the next 5 years and sustain her popularity on shipping. Also, her career was doing well before those guys came along, she kept busy in critically acclaimed projects. Honestly, I must stress that the idea that she should even worry about NR taking her place is downgrading (however unintentional) because that links Abbie's place in the show with her value as dictated by how Crane sees her. I know it is not mean spirited but acting like they are in competition for lead position is insulting because it parks Abbie in the LL(always has the "most important female!" connotation, however secondary they actually are to the story/plot and viewers)/LI position and not a lead in her own right.

 

3. The point of comparing her to CP is what I have the most trouble with. And I certainly don't get what it has to do with being an actress of colour versus not. Honestly, I think Scandal has given unrealistic expectations as to the power of social media on programming and careers for any actors, M/WOCs inluded. Sure they made the tweet part of it an event but it's not a sustainable model for most types of shows. On Scandal, even on your best day you don't catch all of the details and the drama is overplayed and designed to make you talk about it. This year in TV, more than ever, I think show runners have realised that the whole twitter moments thing is a double edge sword and mostly goes with a decrease in internal consistency and logic. It makes sense, the more gasp motivated a story is, the more leaps in logic and narration are needed to sustain the pace. A genre show, especially one with a high mythology content, can not afford to have random scenes and jumbled plotlines just to surprise! the viewer at the end. In fact, the more foreshadowing and retracing one can do in those shows the better appraised it is. But it also has to have a good balance between wink-wink and anvils. Genre shows are meant for internal digestion and then sharing and thinking over the possible outcomes.

So I can't validate the idea that social media is as vital as people make it out to be. 

I also can't validate the idea that CP is an example that NB should follow as their situations, aside from being in a genre show, are completely different. Abbie is a lead in her own right without whom the story literally could not happen as it was even more hers than Ichabod's at the start. Iris West was a love interest at her conception. She was created as a reward and gauge for the hero's emotional and interpersonal changes. You can't see those two as similar just because they are high up on the call sheet WoC. Their narrative purposes are different. Iris West could disappear now and only reappear the last seaso'(s last episode as a sign of the Flash being where he needed to end up and it wouldn't be weird. Candice is on the show as the hero's LI, her longevity on the show depends on that status. She doesn't have a comic book destiny that merits an origin story like Laurel on Arrow so she relies on being wanted onscreen more. Also, as you mentioned, CP is savvy and knew she was stepping in hot waters because half the people had already decided she was Laurel 2.0 (hmm...sound familiar?) and Caitlin was Felicity 2.0 which is complete and utter bullshit. [side note: So glad people pulled their heads out of their asses long enough to look past their differing genitalia and see that Cisco is the Felicity of the Flash.] The other half might have other problems like she is her own person and wasn't introduced as a simpering damsel pining after Barry or maybe melanin, who the hell knows. Anyway, she knew she had to court people to her side from the offset and her position is a lot more fan dependent that Nicole's is. Nicole did not come into the show under that cloud, signed up for an action packed role and is a lead in her own right. Courting shippers is meaningless for her. If the show stays afloat because of shippers only; it will slowly sink anyway because keeping shippers happy all the time is impossible and tending to every whim of the viewers' is the best way to crash and burn. If the viewership is mostly shippers, or simply people who keep up to see if they get together, they probably don't translate into long term fans so her post SH career is impacted neither positively nor negatively by their content/dissatisfaction. If they lose interest and the show gets cancelled, she will just get back to her previous status. Note also the difference in profile and filmography between the two actresses, NB has more thorough experience, has been on stage, TV and film. Sure they talk about twitter numbers getting people parts but I bet if we were to dig deeper, the trend would be that it's with people that haven't proved their worth on a part as big or are TV only teen-show stars, etc. So twitter is a good boost but there's only so far it can take someone and I believe Nicole is already further than that cut off point.

 

Also, let's be real, if her fans need her supporting the ship to continue liking her than they are simple fans of the ship not of Nicole. And even if they were die hard Nicole fans, it is not in her duty or even interest really to do everything to keep them happy. Her job is to give a performance. Everything else is icing. I don't know if there are as many  De Niro "fans" as there were Robert Pattinson "fans" during the dark days of Twilight's reign and yet there is no question who is the most successful, accomplished, talented and not to mention influential of the two. Heck taking two female performers, Charlize Theron pulls objectively more weight than J-Law and we know who has more fake twitters and fansites in her name. I could go on for a while with these types of comparisons but I'd like to think my  point is made.

I don't think your point is made, sorry. I think from your perspective it is, but you're really missing my point - which is rooted in my perspective as an American black woman watching American black female leads navigate white Hollywood.

I have a feeling the mods are gonna make us move this, so I will put my comment in spoiler tags too... but I have a feeling we're way off topic, lol. Though it does kinda go with a discussion of media kinda?

I don't think you understand what it's like as an AMERICAN black woman to watch black leads on a show and to worry about their staying power. I also don't think you have any understanding of what it's like to watch black female leads relegated to "strong black woman with no social life or love life" over and over, or for their lives to be erased or hardly mentioned, or never mentioned as much as their white co-stars, etc.. This is why Scandal was so groundbreaking, tbh. We'd never gotten to see that before.

Did you see an article around the time SH premiered which asked if Nicole Beharie was the next Kerry Washington? If not, you should read it - there's a REASON that connection was made. Did you know that Scandal was the first drama ever with a black female lead? Then SH was the second. That's a big deal and yes it's important. That's why the two are compared. That's also why I brought CP into this - it's relevant when we have so few black American female leads - relevant enough that we feel we have to do everything possible to protect them and keep them around because representation matters.

I've seen it's a little different in the UK - Merlin is one of my fave shows and I love how they handled Gwen - but she still went through a lot of ugliness (the actress) and racism - much of it coming from American fans.

Again - my points about NB aren't about shipping. I don't know how many times I have to say it. I also don't care if you get it or not. You aren't a black woman, so maybe you cannot comprehend what it's like to watch hardly ANY images of yourself in media (aside from ugly stereotypes) so that when you do see them you would do nearly anything and everything to protect them and sustain them.

It's THAT serious.

My points about CP were all about how she recognizes the currency she has with her fans and uses that to ensure she has staying power. NB never does that - and sometimes comes off as though she wouldn't mind losing her lead status to someone else. As a woman of color and a black woman, I'm HYPER aware of the fact that I have no real power in this world - and that black actresses have little to no real power in this world. Not really. At any moment, some high level executive could just decide that "Welp, the grand diversity experiment is OVER - bring back the white female lead/love interest". Black women who watch this show KNOW it to be true - it's happened so many times in the past and we know what the patterns look like. NB is the co-lead of Sleepy Hollow, so the story needs her, yes. But the show could just as easily decide to create a "Twisted" situation where there are many people who can be witnesses and before you can say "Person of Interest", she could be erased from the show.

So - my points about CP are mostly about how she recognizes and uses the currency she has with fans AND actively engages with fans. I'm not just talking about shippers - please stop misunderstanding me. Even Iris West fans care more about Iris' actual story and journey apart from Barry than his relationship with her. This season - largely due, I believe to CP's efforts - we are getting a ton of Iris growth and story that really isn't about Barry or being involved with him at all and THAT is what I'm talking about. But CP caped for herself and caped for getting Iris a story that stood ON ITS OWN. Please don't confuse Iris with "just a love interest". She never should have been just that - and in canon she's more. Thankfully the show got the memo - largely due to CP caping and us caping for her.

The fact that you're using Jennifer Lawrence (a WHITE ACTRESS) to illustrate any point here confuses me. She doesn't HAVE to stay 10 steps ahead to ensure a spot for herself. All she has to do is not mess up. There will always be roles for her. They had to race bend Iris West for CP and Sleepy Hollow got the benefit of a Diversity-loving Exec at Fox who made sure they created a diverse cast (and now he's gone, even though Fox seems to be renewing their interest in diversity) - but how long will that TREND last?

Sorry - but black women in the narrative being erased is a very common thing - even with Shonda leading Scandal, plenty of fans believe even she erased Olivia in favor of Mellie last season.

It's not about social media or twitter. It's about getting yourself out there in the press and doing interviews and sending messages to the fans that they have been heard and hyping them up for you and your character. NB rarely - if ever - does that. CP does. It matters. Representation matters and caping for that as a black woman (sorry, it just does) MATTERS. NB is extremely talented - but that doesn't mean that her spot can't be snatched. We just came off of a season where Goffman tried to snatch it from her. Let's be honest.

Also, your comments about Iris West from a comic canon perspective are way off - she cannot be erased from this show without completely rewriting The Flash mythology - I'm a huge comic nerd. It would be like removing Lois Lane from Superman - you can't really do it. But that's another topic.

You have some other great points to discuss, but I have a splitting headache at this point and I'm starting to feel very shabby, so I will have to get to them later... :)

Edited September 11, 2015 by phoenics

[Writing Wrongs]

I just noticed on Amazon that some companion books to the show are coming out:

http://www.amazon.com/Sleepy-Hollow-Tara-Bennett/dp/1782762442/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sleepy-Hollow-Creating-Heroes-Monsters/dp/1783298375/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y

[jhlipton]

I just noticed on Amazon that some companion books to the show are coming out:

http://www.amazon.com/Sleepy-Hollow-Tara-Bennett/dp/1782762442/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sleepy-Hollow-Creating-Heroes-Monsters/dp/1783298375/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y

 

Regarding the first book:

Featuring exclusive interviews with cast and crew, along with never before published artwork and sketches, Sleepy Hollow unearths all the secrets of the worldwide hit Fox show.

 

 

We need something like this for season 2!

[fantique]

I don't think your point is made, sorry. I think from your perspective it is, but you're really missing my point - which is rooted in my perspective as a black woman watching black female leads navigate white Hollywood.

I have a feeling the mods are gonna make us move this, so I will put my comment in spoiler tags too... but I have a feeling we're way off topic, lol. Though it does kinda go with a discussion of media kinda?

I don't think you understand what it's like as a black woman to watch black leads on a show and to worry about their staying power. I also don't think you have any understanding of what it's like to watch black female leads relegated to "strong black woman with no social life or love life" over and over, or for their lives to be erased or hardly mentioned, or never mentioned as much as their white co-stars, etc.. This is why Scandal was so groundbreaking, tbh. We'd never gotten to see that before.

Again - my points about NB aren't about shipping. I don't know how many times I have to say it. I also don't care if you get it or not. You aren't a black woman, so maybe you cannot comprehend what it's like to watch hardly ANY images of yourself in media (aside from ugly stereotypes) so that when you do see them you would do nearly anything and everything to protect them and sustain them.

It's THAT serious.

My points about CP were all about how she recognizes the currency she has with her fans and uses that to ensure she has staying power. NB never does that - and sometimes comes off as though she wouldn't mind losing her lead status to someone else. As a woman of color and a black woman, I'm HYPER aware of the fact that I have no real power in this world - and that black actresses have little to no real power in this world. Not really. At any moment, some high level executive could just decide that "Welp, the grand diversity experiment is OVER - bring back the white female lead/love interest". Black women who watch this show KNOW it to be true - it's happened so many times in the past and we know what the patterns look like. NB is the co-lead of Sleepy Hollow, so the story needs her, yes. But the show could just as easily decide to create a "Twisted" situation where there are many people who can be witnesses and before you can say "Person of Interest", she could be erased from the show.

So - my points about CP are mostly about how she recognizes and uses the currency she has with fans AND actively engages with fans. I'm not just talking about shippers - please stop misunderstanding me. Even Iris West fans care more about Iris' actual story and journey apart from Barry than his relationship with her. This season - largely due, I believe to CP's efforts - we are getting a ton of Iris growth and story that really isn't about Barry or being involved with him at all and THAT is what I'm talking about. But CP caped for herself and caped for getting Iris a story that stood ON ITS OWN. Please don't confuse Iris with "just a love interest". She never should have been just that - and in canon she's more. Thankfully the show got the memo - largely due to CP caping and us caping for her.

The fact that you're using Jennifer Lawrence (a WHITE ACTRESS) to illustrate any point here confuses me. She doesn't HAVE to stay 10 steps ahead to ensure a spot for herself. All she has to do is not mess up. There will always be roles for her. They had to race bend Iris West for CP and Sleepy Hollow got the benefit of a Diversity-loving Exec at Fox who made sure they created a diverse cast (and now he's gone, even though Fox seems to be renewing their interest in diversity) - but how long will that TREND last?

Sorry - but black women in the narrative being erased is a very common thing - even with Shonda leading Scandal, plenty of fans believe even she erased Olivia in favor of Mellie last season.

It's not about social media or twitter. It's about getting yourself out there in the press and doing interviews and sending messages to the fans that they have been heard and hyping them up for you and your character. NB rarely - if ever - does that. CP does. It matters. Representation matters and caping for that as a black woman (sorry, it just does) MATTERS. NB is extremely talented - but that doesn't mean that her spot can't be snatched. We just came off of a season where Goffman tried to snatch it from her. Let's be honest.

Also, your comments about Iris West from a comic canon perspective are way off - she cannot be erased from this show without completely rewriting The Flash mythology - I'm a huge comic nerd. It would be like removing Lois Lane from Superman - you can't really do it. But that's another topic.

You have some other great points to discuss, but I have a splitting headache at this point and I'm starting to feel very shabby, so I will have to get to them later... :)

First of all, thanks for the response, and yeah, I think since this is still very much on the discussion of Nicole on social media and in interactive mediatised events, this in topic enough but mods do move me as you will if not.

 

Second of all...I think there has been a miscommunication here somewhere (and my post in the UO thread before reading your response makes that clear)... I am black, 100%, unadulterated west African to be precise. So that's why the "as a black woman" stance to justify what I consider to be extremely demanding and capricious expectations out of Nicole doesn't make sense to me. Nicole doesn't have to solve or be aware of all the problems I have seen for others or experienced myself as a black woman just because I am a fan of hers. We have different origins, experiences and challenges. She is an actress, her job is to fight for the opportunity to play as varied as a collection of roles as she can to display her acting chops, the rest is optional. In this particular case, Nicole has portrayed more feminine women and she wants this character to be a badass. Saying she shouldn't because there is a trope of the loveless black woman going around, even if that's not her experience, is simply restrictive and seems unreasonable to me. Coupled with the exasperated, condescending tone...well it rubs me the wrong way.

 

 

What if I brought my "African" (cue eyeroll because this is reductive but I doubt most of you heard of my country) baggage every time people say "Africa" on TV/movies like it's a fucking country or I see a clearly West African playing an East African part? Do I condemn the actor for daring to want to work even though a two minute google image search would make it clear that there is no way in hell to confuse a typical Ethiopian with a typical Nigerian? Do I put my baggage on decidedly erroneous patriotic fantasies where American soldiers are heroes saving the world as opposed to pawns sent to play war games to justify the US' over inflated military budget? Especially when most Western countries' interventions in Africa (and I do mean the continent in its entirety) is to profit off the disarray in some way or another? I don't assume that everyone has the same priorities, concerns and experiences as me, and I certainly don't charge them of solving them through a medium that can not do it even if it tried.

 

Forget J-Law. What about Lupita Nyong'o? She has a twitter managed by her PR team with occasional tweets from herself. She is a style icon so there is a lot about what she wears and stuff and her projects but I don't see a lot a fan interaction. Or her retweeting fans a storm or whatever. She appears at promotional events, has fun and when presented with fan appreciation, shows how grateful she is. Except for the PR twitter and the style icon bit, I don't see much difference between Lupita and Nicole's behaviours. And is Lupita's career suffering from not constantly courting fans? Is anyone thinking "sigh...if only she was on twitter more retweeting fan art, she would have her own franchise"? 

 

Now Nicole, she was not happy with season 2, and is excited about season 3. She is getting her own independent storyline she, and I assumed most viewers, craved in season 2. They are exploring her character having an arc and making decisions independent of Ichabod. What is she supposed to be fighting for?  Your example of CP and Iris makes me even less convinced by your self promotion arguments since CP is fighting for what it seems Nicole will have this season and had the first season already. So again what is she supposed to be fighting for? She is already getting a storyline (whether it's good, well...) and a seemingly even section of the plot dedicated to her. I guess I am lost as to what you think she should be aspiring to that she is not getting. I mean the example you are giving me of ideal self promotion is trying to get for her character what Abbie already has. As for the Iris stuff, well of course I don't have the canon perspective, all I have to go on is the show and the fact that they clearly meant her as only a love interest, which -as you said yourself- is being rectified because the actress wants something better for herself. And I am glad for her. Her goals are good ones to have because the Flash isn't forever. I still don't think comparing the promotion CP uses to NB's style is fair because their starting point is different, and they have different experiences and personalities.

I want to check that I am not misunderstanding here: you're saying that despite being an introvert, she should force herself to go out there more because you feel her fans are the only reason she has staying power on SH, and maybe the industry at large? Yet the example you give me is fighting for what Nicole already has. Now, you can be excused for not knowing I'm black, but there is no denying hat Nicole is and surely had to deal with some shitty stuff we probably would never be privy to unless we joined the industry ourselves. Why do you feel she is not aware of the difficulty of her own position? That's the condescension I was referring to in my first rant, who are we to tell this woman how hard her life is and how hard she needs to work to insure her own livelihood? Like she is too stupid to understand her situation. You think that going to Julliard and then England she never encountered racism in her career until Sleepy Hollow? What? Did she have an anti-racism bracelet? What gives people the right to decide what she should feel is best for her? And what is that exactly since you're citing someone fighting for what she already has?

I really want to understand your position here. Because sure, I would have loved to have one costume to disguise in as a kid from the cartoons I watched (which were anime) and then I moved to France when I was 7, in a small town where I went to a Catholic school as one of the only three non white students (one was my cousin and the other was Algerian). I had painstaking conversations about the various stages of my hair as it got braided and the boys pulled my hair when it had "grown overnight" to prove it was a wig. So I am indeed accustomed to an environment where I don't see many people like me on TV or in fact around me outside of my family. Then I stopped watching TV almost completely from age 10 until 4 years ago (I'm 22). Maybe all the hardship of not having people like me onscreen went past me during my identity questioning years (when I was not watching TV) or maybe I just didn't feel that bothered about who was and wasn't portrayed on TV. American shows are prevalent there and since I didn't know the US, I didn't care because I never expected to see "me" on the programs. I still don't care about seeing people like me on TV. To me, entertainment is about escapism, getting out of my own head and bonus point if it makes me think thanks to realism but I don't place any stakes in it. The diversity problem irritates the shit out of me because I need good artists/performers to give a shit about what I am watching/reading/listening and the fact that talented people are being excluded because of something as fucking dumb as race/ethnicity is seriously mind-blowingly moronic.

 

Honestly, I don't know why I don't have that anxiety over the tropes and the idea of Abbie just disappearing. It certainly helps that I think Nicole can do much better somewhere else with more talented story tellers so I don't see it as a career shattering thing if she is no longer on the show. I wouldn't care because I wouldn't be watching it. I fell in love with Grace Abigail Mills from the pilot, she is what grounded me to the Sleepy Hollow world. If she's not there, it's their loss not the other way around. 

 

I am sure I sound harsh and maybe delusional but I am just explaining where I am coming from, literally. The reason for my posts in the first place is that I honestly don't get the way people project onto Nicole and her career as if she owes them something. Sure the hashtag brought a light on it but most critical reviews were already talking about the problems of season 2 and its misuse of Abbie/Nicole. The execs had already stepped in at least twice by then to try and keep it Beharie. All the signs point to her having the network in her corner if not the the producers and writers. As for the newcomers, we'll see, I guess. So I don't see why she should feel fearful when the people that have power over the writing team are clearly team Abbie/Nicole and were way before all the hashtag debacle. And more importantly, I certainly don't believe that her success depends on entertaining fans' hopes that she doesn't have for herself on a show that is likely ending within a year or two. As for the interviews and stuff, as I understand it it's not entirely in her hands and it is the extra stuff that is not included in the job she chose. Some people act because they want to be famous and some do because it's just what they want to do. Her surprise and bashfulness at fan response and the fact that she is so clearly an introvert leads me to believe that she's not that into the spotlight stuff and it also makes me think that if she doesn't do press stuff more often, there is a reason. Either way, she made a choice, it's her career and she should not feel indebted to people to the point that she does things that make her uncomfortable because she feels she has no choice. 

Edited September 11, 2015 by fantique

[jhlipton]

In this particular case, Nicole has portrayed more feminine women and she wants this character to be a badass. Saying she shouldn't because there is a trope of the loveless black woman going around, even if that's not her experience, is simply restrictive and seems unreasonable to me. Coupled with the exasperated, condescending tone...well it rubs me the wrong way.

Let's look at her film roles:

I haven't seen The Express; Apartment 4E; The Last Fall; The Mirror Between Us; or Woman Thou Art Loosed: On the 7th Day

American Violet -- Very loving of all those around her (except her husband and his awful girlfriend) and probably the most "kick-ass" character in the film. Hard to believe this was her first major role.

My Last Day Without You -- Loving and powerful, but not "kick-ass"

Shame -- Loving and powerful, [she decides the limits of the affair] but not "kick-ass"

42 -- Loving.

So aqll-in-all, I would agree with this -- she has definitely played more "feminine" roles, and has never gone the "loveless" route, so a chance to totally bad-ass, but not loveless probably feels like a great role.

I wouldn't care because I wouldn't be watching it. I fell in love with Grace Abigail Mills from the pilot, she is what grounded me to the Sleepy Hollow world. If she's not there, it's their loss not the other way around.

Removed from the "Spoiler Section" -- same for me.

[Julia]

I was disturbed by how Abbie was treated last season, partly because she was marginalized when she was one of the things i was watching the show for, and partly because when she was there she was treated as a third wheel at best and at worst some kind of cosmic PA.

 

I feel very strongly about her getting more screen time and more interaction with Ichabod. I've just spent the last twenty years trying to teach the female human I was raising that it doesn't make you more important to be someone's girlfriend, so I'm feeling a little more hesitant about that part.

[fantique]

Let's look at her film roles:

I haven't seen The Express; Apartment 4E; The Last Fall; The Mirror Between Us; or Woman Thou Art Loosed: On the 7th Day

This is on my Netflix watch list. Fun factoid, she is Lance Gross' girlfriend in it! No wonder she's happy about him joining the team ;D

[phoenics]

First of all, thanks for the response, and yeah, I think since this is still very much on the discussion of Nicole on social media and in interactive mediatised events, this in topic enough but mods do move me as you will if not.

 

Second of all...I think there has been a miscommunication here somewhere (and my post in the UO thread before reading your response makes that clear)... I am black, 100%, unadulterated west African to be precise. So that's why the "as a black woman" stance to justify what I consider to be extremely demanding and capricious expectations out of Nicole doesn't make sense to me. Nicole doesn't have to solve or be aware of all the problems I have seen for others or experienced myself as a black woman just because I am a fan of hers. We have different origins, experiences and challenges. She is an actress, her job is to fight for the opportunity to play as varied as a collection of roles as she can to display her acting chops, the rest is optional. In this particular case, Nicole has portrayed more feminine women and she wants this character to be a badass. Saying she shouldn't because there is a trope of the loveless black woman going around, even if that's not her experience, is simply restrictive and seems unreasonable to me. Coupled with the exasperated, condescending tone...well it rubs me the wrong way.

Your posts rub me the wrong way as well. I think you keep reducing everyone's points down to trivialities because you yourself haven't experienced things the same way we have. That's fine - but stop dismissing our experiences as black women growing up in America, dealing with American racism - constantly for many many years. You're 22? Keep living.

And sorry - but her job is to stay employed - and that comes with a lot of things she needs to do - press being one of them. And being diplomatic is another - if it weren't, Tom wouldn't be trying to be diplomatic about Ichabbie. You may see that as being beneath him and her and perhaps it is, but it's reality.

I think the reason why you're getting so upset is that you're trying to look at this the way it SHOULD be and are literally ignoring the reality of the racist society that we're living in. I may think all of this is unfair (and honestly, CP on The Flash shouldn't HAVE to cape so hard for Iris West and for herself, but the REALITY is that if she DOESN'T use the currency that she has with the fans, it would be so much easier for her to just be completely erased from that show. As it is, the show KNOWS she is hugely popular and thus they'd think twice before dropping her. And that's because of her efforts as well as the efforts of her fans.

But she shouldn't HAVE to do that.

Neither should NB.

But that's not reality. The REALITY is, we live in a racist society that tends to erase women of color - specifically black women. In Hollywood and especially on tv. The fact that KW on Scandal was the first drama ever with a black female lead should give one pause.

 

What if I brought my "African" (cue eyeroll because this is reductive but I doubt most of you heard of my country) baggage every time people say "Africa" on TV/movies like it's a fucking country or I see a clearly West African playing an East African part? Do I condemn the actor for daring to want to work even though a two minute google image search would make it clear that there is no way in hell to confuse a typical Ethiopian with a typical Nigerian? Do I put my baggage on decidedly erroneous patriotic fantasies where American soldiers are heroes saving the world as opposed to pawns sent to play war games to justify the US' over inflated military budget? Especially when most Western countries' interventions in Africa (and I do mean the continent in its entirety) is to profit off the disarray in some way or another? I don't assume that everyone has the same priorities, concerns and experiences as me, and I certainly don't charge them of solving them through a medium that can not do it even if it tried.

That's you. Not all of us. Some of us have read the research papers about how images in media impact self esteem and thus we refuse to sit back quietly and do nothing. We refuse to be silent about it. When we see a twitter comment from a mother who exclaims to Candice Patton about how much her five year old daughter loves her as Iris because "she's so pretty - she's like me" - well, for some of us, that's what makes it worth it and that's what makes it worth fighting the good fight and refusing to be silent about the tropes and stereotypes that have defined AMERICAN television for so long.

And honestly - to all of the examples you listed - I would make comments about those things - and people these days ARE making comments about those things. And that's good. Finally, people have decided to finally refuse to just say silent in the face of those things.

You don't want to? Then don't. But don't get upset because some of us refuse to just be silent and because some of us know that we can't just "do our jobs". It isn't fair - it's just how it's going to be until things become fair. Or else some folks will simply be out of an (acting) job.

 

 

Forget J-Law. What about Lupita Nyong'o? She has a twitter managed by her PR team with occasional tweets from herself. She is a style icon so there is a lot about what she wears and stuff and her projects but I don't see a lot a fan interaction. Or her retweeting fans a storm or whatever. She appears at promotional events, has fun and when presented with fan appreciation, shows how grateful she is. Except for the PR twitter and the style icon bit, I don't see much difference between Lupita and Nicole's behaviours. And is Lupita's career suffering from not constantly courting fans? Is anyone thinking "sigh...if only she was on twitter more retweeting fan art, she would have her own franchise"? 

Lupita has "made it" so to speak - and has the ability to pick and choose her roles. Not all, but most. NB is NOT in the same league right now in terms of her star currency. But I hesitate to say that she's "made it" because even the Academy Award nominated Taraji Henson was treated poorly on Person of Interest. She was never really given her due and she wasn't promoted. And then the show got rid of her. It doesn't matter what they said at the beginning - if the producers had any inkling she could be a box office smash, they never would have let her go. And usually, Hollywood makes the assumption about black women that they can't be a box office smash and based on the way Fox does PR for Sleepy Hollow - they've decided that Nicole Beharie CANNOT bring in whatever demos they want her to.

I believe they are wrong - but my point is that clearly that's what THEY think. Maybe shoring up her fanbase and using some of her currency would change that. It would at least help some of us who cape so hard for her feel like she cares.

My only point is that NB should learn to use her currency - that doesn't mean she has to go on an all out blitz, but she might do well to learn how to cape for herself in subtle ways. I've seen other actresses who are introverts manage this well - I think NB needs a manager or agent to help her.

 

 

 

Now Nicole, she was not happy with season 2, and is excited about season 3. She is getting her own independent storyline she, and I assumed most viewers, craved in season 2. They are exploring her character having an arc and making decisions independent of Ichabod.

We won't know this for sure until we see what airs. Some of the press from this year sounds similar to last year - hence people's nervousness.

 

What is she supposed to be fighting for?  

Exactly what you claim she's going to get this season - though we have no real way of knowing if that's going to happen. Your posts make it sound like without Ichabbie, Abbie will get the star treatment. As Kimberella so eloquently said in the unpopular opinions thread, WE HAVEN'T gotten any Ichabbie and Abbie still doesn't have a real story on her own and hasn't since 1.05!

Where is the story you claim she's had? With Luke on the floor in some cabin knocked out? We've seen her apartment ONCE! And from 1.05 all the way through S2, it was about Ichabod - any Abbie story was barely mentioned and contained to ONE episode with Jenny.

 

Your example of CP and Iris makes me even less convinced by your self promotion arguments since CP is fighting for what it seems Nicole will have this season and had the first season already.

Abbie had her own story up until 1.05 and since then it's been pretty much non-existent. Please refer to kimberella's post in the unpopular opinions thread, because she said it so well. You're acting like Abbie has had this wonderful arc when in reality her arc was DROPPED and was really only a prop for Ichabod getting Katrina out of Purgatory - because after that... NOTHING.

And you're making assumptions about S2. And who's to say that it wasn't OUR caping for NB and the critics who latched onto #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter (they were NOT caping for Abbie before that hashtag) that got NB this story?

 

Honestly, I don't know why I don't have that anxiety over the tropes and the idea of Abbie just disappearing.

Keep living. Some of us have been dealing with this mess for longer than you've been alive. And you've had years to actually see black female leads since you were a teenager. That's major. For some of us, all we saw were tropes, so we get a little sensitive to seeing those same tropes and to seeing promising black female leads reduced to tropes. Especially when people literally try to force you into those tropes in real life because they don't know any better - and no one does anything because racism.

Again - keep living.

 

 

I am sure I sound harsh and maybe delusional but I am just explaining where I am coming from, literally. The reason for my posts in the first place is that I honestly don't get the way people project onto Nicole and her career as if she owes them something. Sure the hashtag brought a light on it but most critical reviews were already talking about the problems of season 2 and its misuse of Abbie/Nicole.

I don't think this is true - remember the mess with the writer over not being "real fans"? That happened and then it was only then that critics started going in - because then we (here on this site) cited the critics back to said writer as proof that we weren't just crazy fans and that our thoughts had merit that was backed up by critics.

 

The execs had already stepped in at least twice by then to try and keep it Beharie. All the signs point to her having the network in her corner if not the the producers and writers.

Only in a token sense. Sorry not sorry.

I honestly believe she came in real danger of being killed off the show last season. If Goffman thought he could have gotten away with it, he would have killed her off. Or relegated her so far to the back burner that she ceased to matter. She's already relegated to side kick status in much of the press for S2 and in that one poster, Katrina was elevated to the same level of prominence as her. For fans who watched Twisted - that was eerily similar.

No one is saying that it's fair that NB can't just do her job acting. It's not fair. She should be promoted even so. The PR department should promote her. But they NEVER DO. So she has to pick up that slack - or her manager does. That's just how the game is played. You can either understand that, or keep railing idealistically that it shouldn't be so. The latter simply doesn't work - I've seen it happen too many times where it just doesn't work.

I think at this point we are talking past each other and I also think there is a generational gap here. You cannot understand my perspective because you honestly haven't lived it - which I guess in some ways is a good thing. You got to be a teenager and see a drama with a black female lead (that was history making). And in the past 5 years, you've been able to see 5 black female leads of tv dramas. All before you hit age 23. If I add Megan Good's show, that's SIX. It's unprecedented. And prior to this, we pretty much had nothing but stereotypes and tropes (sassy black side kick, sexless strong black woman, angry black woman, etc). So, it's great that you just want NB to be able to just do her job and go home.

I think we all wish it could be that way. Heck, I usually ignore a message board for shows I like - simply because I have no need to be there if I'm enjoying said show. It's usually when a show goes off the rails that I come in search of like minded friends to find out what the heck happened. Kinda like with Sleepy Hollow. I loved most of S1 and I came here to find out what the heck happened.

Edited September 12, 2015 by phoenics

[jhlipton]

Since I'm not ranting, and my comments are oblique to yours and fantique's conversation,I'm unspoiling these comments...
 

And sorry - but her job is to stay employed - and that comes with a lot of things she needs to do - press being one of them.

Basically, I agree with you -- institutional racism is so deep, and downright impossible for people to see.  That's certainly at least part of the reason the HatStand was promoted over an outstanding actress.
 
On one point though, I dunno -- looking at her movies, she seems to be getting plum roles without doing the press junkets.  You seem to be making the assumption that, for her, it's Sleepy Hollow or unemployment, and that may not be the case.
 

The fact that KW on Scandal was the first drama ever with a black female.

I was going to mention Julia, but that was a sitcom

Edited September 12, 2015 by jhlipton

[phoenics]

Yeah - sitcoms don't have the same cache. Dramas are an area of "serious" tv that black women typically did not break into until Shonda Rhimes and Scandal. And it took a black producer for us to get that. Others are just following her lead.

I'm speaking largely of NB and Sleepy Hollow. I'm talking about her ability to keep her lead role in television, which is a different ballgame than a few movies. This is why I've said over and over that NB does NOT understand fandoms. Her experience has been movies. With movies, you do the one or two press things and that's it. You don't have to continually engage with fandoms or play the press in order to help craft the narrative for you or your character. Television is a different game - I learned that from Lee Bell (of Bold and the Beautiful fame) herself.

I think that her lack of press is a problem. She very well may be able to leave SH and go on to have an amazing film career, but I kinda laugh at the notion because usually there is only room for one - maybe two - "IT" black movie actresses at a time. Ask any black actress and they will tell you that the roles are few and far between. Hollywood just doesn't create enough roles for black women to even try out for - many of the casting calls default to white women. And in Sleepy Hollow's case, they were ACTIVELY trying to have a diverse cast due to the efforts of an executive at Fox who is no longer there (and you could tell for S2). And now, Fox has probably decided to work on Megan Good's show, along with TPH's show - which means NB has even less currency than she had before.

That's why the comparison to J-Law was so laughable. Taraji P Henson was nominated for an Oscar, but still treated like a D actress for years after that - until Empire.

I don't know where you think NB is going to just be some kind of breakout star after SH. The list of movies you listed were not mainstream hits by any stretch of the imagination. If that's all she wants to do, then maybe she has a shot - but her inability to promote herself says otherwise. 42 is the role that "America" would have counted as a "real role".

I would love it if I didn't have to worry about NB's prospects - but reality and history have taught me otherwise. It just typically doesn't work that way in Hollywood. Even great non-black actresses have fallen into this trap.

I do think fantique has a point though - NB shouldn't have to cape for fandom wish fulfillment. That was never my point though - I don't get why she thought that - unless it was simply her confusion over my point that NB needed to be more diplomatic about Ichabbie rather than looking hostile about it. That's what prompted my comments about NB not understanding fandom. But fantique seemed to think that just that reference to Ichabbie meant that I was demanding that NB cape for Ichabbie when I never said anything of the sort... it's sad that my meaning was so misconstrued to make an argument against an argument I never made.

My only points: NB needs to do for her character too and not rely solely on her fans to cape for her and she needs to appear more diplomatic about Ichabbie since so many of her fans love it. That doesn't mean cape for it - that just means don't be hostile towards the idea of it. It's how you manage fandoms. And she'll learn that one way or the other - fandoms have a way of teaching folks a lesson.

Last point - it's completely reasonable that NB just wants to have a badass character to play - but it's simply not true that she isn't aware of the tropes associated with black women characters and that she actively does speak to the writers about this because she recognizes the tropes and doesn't want Abbie to fall into them. That's from press she did in S1 - I wish she'd do more like that. I think it's been a lot of radio silence since those times. Maybe it got to be too much for her - hence she probably needs a manager to help her manage press now since her introverted tendencies make it so hard for her (I'm assuming).

[cynic]

I don't tend to read interviews or follow social media, and I didn't know caping was a word until this discussion (/old), so I think I'll stay out of the 'what she should be doing' fray.

I will say this though and as always this is all IMHO. Sleepy Hollow is, at its heart, a buddy cop show. Sure, one of the cops isn't actually a cop and is from the 18th century and yes, they fight mystical evil instead of criminals, but still that's the set up. And the heart of a buddy cop show and its greatest asset is always the relationship between the partners. It's only natural that people will care about that and are disappointed when things disrupt that dynamic. That doesn't mean they don't care about the characters individually, but the duo is the main draw. I don't see why NB or anyone would be "insulted" by that.

As for shipping, I hate the implication that often creeps into conversations about it that romantic relationships are somehow less worthy than other types of relationships and that wanting to see one means that you're not interested in anything else. I also don't see how a person in a relationship can't also be a badass and important character in their own right. Why is it an either/or situation? That attitude is what seems limiting to me.

And yes, as a WoC in my forties who has never seen a black woman on TV in a healthy, romantic OTP, it does make me rather sad that the one show where they finally break the romance formula is this one.

[DearEvette]

Finally getting some photos of Ab & Ichabod for new season.  I like the shorter hair on her.  Not too keen on it for him because I like longer hair Ichabod.  But it is kinda growing on me.... (no pun intended).

 

http://thetorontokid.tumblr.com/post/128895023951/more-sleepy-hollow-filming-in-lawrenceville-ga

 

also

 

http://www.screenspy.com/articles/tv/photos/sleepy-hollow-3x01-gallery-i-witness/

[OnceSane]

Folks, we've had quite the summer going over what happened last season and the various press appearances as we approach the new season. It's become heated and downright rude in here, which is against our site's main rule of "Be Civil". Also, the conversation is going in circles; if you've stated your point several times, it's time to stop. Let's move on from the Nicole Beharie and how she presents herself/what she owes the fandom/Abbie topic. The horse is well and truly beaten and it's time to let the horse be dead. Thanks.

[cynic]

I love that wavy bob on her. I would totally get a similar cut, but I would need an army of hairdressers to achieve that "naturally wavy" look. In my experience, the effortlessly gorgeous styles are the ones that take the most work!

 

As for him, yeah his hair is at a bit of an awkward length. Now that Mison is no longer wearing a wig, I'm hoping that he'll continue to grow it out a bit. I do find it hilarious that Abbie and Crane are continuing to mirror each with their hair though. 

 

I do wish that the show had decided to change up Crane's clothing too. Now that Crane has had a chance to find himself and acclimate more to the modern world, I think it would have been a perfect time to update his wardrobe. I would love to see him in a plain button down shirt and modern, but classy trousers under his coat.

[Yolapukka]

I think the Sleepy Hollow facebook page is doing a nice job of stepping up their promotion of the show, I'd like to see them doing a great job. and by that I don't necessarily mean more posts, although that would be nice as long as they don't go overboard and get spammy about it. I wish they would put a little more thought into putting up shareable posts that might be intriguing to those who haven't watched in the past or lost interest due to too much (boring) CFD. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by yuggapukka

[phoenics]

I love that wavy bob on her. I would totally get a similar cut, but I would need an army of hairdressers to achieve that "naturally wavy" look. In my experience, the effortlessly gorgeous styles are the ones that take the most work!

I hope they keep her look up during the season - that's one of those looks that doesn't wear well if you don't take care of it, iykwim. It's super cute though. If I wasn't rocking a natural, I'd try that style out. But even when I occasionally straighten mine - it's too long for that - but ooh maybe I could try the tuck under method for a faux bob...! I'm so gonna try it.

As for him, yeah his hair is at a bit of an awkward length. Now that Mison is no longer wearing a wig, I'm hoping that he'll continue to grow it out a bit. I do find it hilarious that Abbie and Crane are continuing to mirror each with their hair though. 

 

I do wish that the show had decided to change up Crane's clothing too. Now that Crane has had a chance to find himself and acclimate more to the modern world, I think it would have been a perfect time to update his wardrobe. I would love to see him in a plain button down shirt and modern, but classy trousers under his coat.

I dunno - doesn't that get in the way of the "man out of time" thing? I feel like the only way I can tolerate Crane's arrogance is for him to still be in his colonial uniform - because without it he's just a jerk, lol.

[WearyTraveler]

It's great that the witnesses are so connected that their hair length matches.  IIRC, some articles stated that the premiere will show Crane and Mills reuniting after they've spent a few months apart; I can hear the dialog in my head: "You cut your hair", "so did you".... he, he!

Edited September 12, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[cynic]

Sleepy Hollow has won the first virtual reality Emmy for their Oculus Rift Experience. It won in the "Interactive Media, User Experience and Visual Design" category. i was able to do this experience at 2014's San Diego Comic Con and it was a lot of fun, though very short. I also got a virtual postcard of me decapitated! It's cuter than it sounds. :)

 

http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/14/emmy-award-sleepy-hollow-oculus-vr/

[DearEvette]

There are finally some good quality videos of the SH Dragoncon panel on youtube.... here is one but there are a bunch others.

 

[tv echo]

Edited September 15, 2015 by tv echo

[cynic]

Season 3 poster.

http://tvline.com/2015/09/15/sleepy-hollow-season-3-art-abbie-ichabod-silhouette/

 

[Miss Dee]

I really like that. It's visually appealing, and I like that you can interpret it as being out the outs with each other or having each other's backs.

With Ichabod and Abbie not seeing each other for a couple of years, I'd like them to be a bit frosty with each other to start with before they eventually yell it and then hug it out, and end up as close as before. So this poster could be a transition from "I'm not speaking to you because I'm pissed and secretly hurt" to "They're gonna have to go through me to get to you."

Edited September 16, 2015 by Miss Dee

[DearEvette]

Oooh, snap!

 

From Tvline:
 

 

Question: On Sleepy Hollow, we’ve seen Crane’s father, but what about his mother? —Morgan
Ausiello: Good question! Too bad it’s one that won’t be answered for a while, if ever. Mark Goffman, the series’ former showrunner, told TVLine last year that Crane’s mother would be covered in Season 2… but that never came to pass. New showrunner Clifton Campbell now says, “We just felt, because of last season and some of the responses from the fans, that we should probably give Crane’s family a rest.”

 

[Julia]

New showrunner Clifton Campbell now says, “We just felt, because of last season and some of the responses from the fans, that we should probably give Crane’s family a rest.”

Well, isn't he clever.

Personally, if Victor Garber promises not to heave his swelling bosoms at me I'd be OK with seeing him again.

[phoenics]

Well, at least he's learning, lol.

[fantique]

Season 3 poster.

http://tvline.com/2015/09/15/sleepy-hollow-season-3-art-abbie-ichabod-silhouette/

 

It has a both beautiful and creepy vibe, like an Edgar Allan Poe inspired drawing. And the colour combo is really cool. I like it! Even though those birds creep the frack out of me.

 

Personally, if Victor Garber promises not to heave his swelling bosoms at me I'd be OK with seeing him again.

*Snort* This made me almost spit my drink due to the image of him in a corset my brain conjured.

Edited September 19, 2015 by fantique

[HalcyonDays]

"We just felt, because of last season and some of the responses from the fans, that we should probably give Crane’s family a rest.”

 

Kinda sad about that because I wanted to know WHY Crane and his dad didn't get along. And you know, Victor Garber. I would have loved to see more of him on the show. Waste.

[WearyTraveler]

See? They can't win!  LOL!

 

People should be jumping for joy that there's no more CFD, taking to twitter and demonstrating how happy that makes them.  I mean, if we're going to have equally impactful reactions to good and bad news....

[catrox14]

Garber is now a regular on Legends of Tomorrow on the CW so maybe they couldn't get him back if they wanted to

[Julia]

See? They can't win!  LOL!

 

People should be jumping for joy that there's no more CFD, taking to twitter and demonstrating how happy that makes them.  I mean, if we're going to have equally impactful reactions to good and bad news....

 

The only impactful reaction I've seen anyone in the audience have over the last two years was leaving the show in numbers large enough to endanger its renewal. Censoring our reactions in hopes that the people writing the show will magically figure out exactly what we want to watch and give it to us if we just don't piss them off by having opinions seems as if it might be less effective.

 

JMO, of course.

[Yolapukka]

I'd be happy to see more of Crane's family in another season, but I think the showrunners made a good decision in staying away from it in this coming season and giving us a break from all the CFD baggage and retcons that the show had to carry last year. Is it just me, or does it sound like a story about Ichabod's family history was dropped in order to give more time to instructing us about the fabulousness of the expired witch?

 

I'm tickled about the addition of Joe Corbin because he relates directly to the Mills sisters and their past. I'm not going to lie though, as much as I will appreciate him, for the first few episodes I'm still going to think of Orlando Jones and how much I miss his presence when I see Zach Appelman. Hopefully after that Joe will be delighting me sufficiently that  I no longer see him through that prism. Conceptually at least, the character is a great addition to Sleepy Hollow. 

Edited September 19, 2015 by yuggapukka

[WearyTraveler]

The only impactful reaction I've seen anyone in the audience have over the last two years was leaving the show in numbers large enough to endanger its renewal. Censoring our reactions in hopes that the people writing the show will magically figure out exactly what we want to watch and give it to us if we just don't piss them off by having opinions seems as if it might be less effective.

 

JMO, of course.

 

I'm advocating the exact opposite of censoring.  I don't think you understood my comment at all.

[Julia]

I'm advocating the exact opposite of censoring.  I don't think you understood my comment at all.

 

My apologies. I understood your comment to mean that people should be jumping for joy and taking to twitter to talk about how happy they are rather than discussing things which concern them. My bad.

[WearyTraveler]

My apologies. I understood your comment to mean that people should be jumping for joy and taking to twitter to talk about how happy they are rather than discussing things which concern them. My bad.

 

Well, I meant they should do both. Complain when they don't like it, but also show their support when they like a new development, so as to encourage the showrunners to keep doing the good things.

[HalcyonDays]

See? They can't win!  LOL!

 

People should be jumping for joy that there's no more CFD, taking to twitter and demonstrating how happy that makes them.  I mean, if we're going to have equally impactful reactions to good and bad news....

 

There Ichabod Crane and his own family drama, and then there's Crane Family Drama. I wanted to see the former - his poor relationship with his father, leaving his family behind to go to America, does he have siblings, why a teacher at Ofxord, why did he go into the military (probably drafted), as a upper class member, how did he deal with the harsh life, etc etc. I'm thinking more like how we see the lives of people on TURN.

 

instead, we spent:

 

...more time instructing us about the fabulousness of the expired witch...(yuggapukka)

 

CFD should really be renamed Katrina Crane Family Drama, since everything stemmed from her and her idiotic and selfish decisions. The purgatory scene with Mison and Garber was one of my favourites and I wanted to flesh out more of their relationship. C'est la vie.

[phoenics]

Well, I meant they should do both. Complain when they don't like it, but also show their support when they like a new development, so as to encourage the showrunners to keep doing the good things.

Yeah - what's that saying? For every good thing you might see 1 or 2 people talking about it, but when something bad happens, everyone tells like 10 people? Same principle here.

But even if people took to twitter et al to praise Clifton and Co. here for this - I don't know how that would come out: "Thanks Cliffy for realizing that CFD tanked the show last year and promising not to do that!"

I just feel like there's not much to do except wait and see. C&C should take silence on this as a good thing.

There Ichabod Crane and his own family drama, and then there's Crane Family Drama. I wanted to see the former - his poor relationship with his father, leaving his family behind to go to America, does he have siblings, why a teacher at Ofxord, why did he go into the military (probably drafted), as a upper class member, how did he deal with the harsh life, etc etc. I'm thinking more like how we see the lives of people on TURN.

 

instead, we spent:

 

 

CFD should really be renamed Katrina Crane Family Drama, since everything stemmed from her and her idiotic and selfish decisions. The purgatory scene with Mison and Garber was one of my favourites and I wanted to flesh out more of their relationship. C'est la vie.

I do love Victor Garber - but he's on LoT and sometimes The Flash, so he might be hard to get. Also, I think C&C are right to back off of Crane and his family drama - any of it - for at least half a season. We haven't really gotten any Abbie backstory since the middle of Season 1, save that one lone episode of Mama in S2. I still want to know how Moloch knew about her and how being hunted all their lives impacted their father - is he dead? What else happened during the years Abbie was stealing?

It just seems like there's a lot there. But I wouldn't want it to take over the show - just as I wouldn't want any Crane story taking over either.

I feel like the show needs to prove to fans that it can be trusted before they do too much with any Crane Family Drama (even non-Katrina family drama). I am kinda exhausted just thinking of it, lol. I think the Betsy Ross stuff will probably be the "CFD" for this season to be honest.

[cynic]

...But even if people took to twitter et al to praise Clifton and Co. here for this - I don't know how that would come out: "Thanks Cliffy for realizing that CFD tanked the show last year and promising not to do that!"...

*snort* Actually, that was my first thought after reading the quote, but yeah, we probably shouldn't tweet that.

 

...I feel like the show needs to prove to fans that it can be trusted before they do too much with any Crane Family Drama (even non-Katrina family drama). I am kinda exhausted just thinking of it, lol. I think the Betsy Ross stuff will probably be the "CFD" for this season to be honest....

Yeah, I'm still very nervous about this whole Betsy thing. I'm afraid that she's going to be as much of a time-sucking black hole as the CFD was and I would hate to have them introduce even more Crane family on top of that. I'm glad they're giving it a rest, honestly. As much as I like Victor Garber, his character here and the associated storyline never appealed to me. I prefer it when the Crane flashbacks are mainly used to advance the mysteries or to explore the historical events (SH's version of them anyway). I want to see Crane with Washington, Franklin, etc, not with his dad.

[Julia]

As much as I like Victor Garber, his character here and the associated storyline never appealed to me. I prefer it when the Crane flashbacks are mainly used to advance the mysteries or to explore the historical events (SH's version of them anyway). I want to see Crane with Washington, Franklin, etc, not with his dad.

 

I was kind of intrigued by the suggestion, in Purgatory, that Ichabod's dad might have been on the other side in more ways than one.

 

It's not out of the question that the new plotline will be more compelling than the old one (although it would help if they would quit shuttling between "trust us because we're the same writers" and "trust us because we're new writers"), but if the character announcement was accurate and they really are going for Yeoman and Beldame Smith, UST superspies, I'd probably vote for Victor Garber. JMO.

[phoenics]

Yeah - I'm so not here for any Mr. & Mrs. Smith mess with Crane and anyone OTHER than Abbie.

[HalcyonDays]

So, not really SH news, but still media involving a SH actor.

 

In her acceptance speech for the Emmy for Best Lead Actress - Drama, Viola Davis - during her thank you/acceptance speech - gave a little shoutout to the most prominent and well-known black women in today's TV landscape....

 

To quote, "The TarajiPHensons, The KerryWashingtons, The HalleBerrys, the NicoleBeharies".....!!!

 

That's right baby! Loved it - teared me up, man. And (offtopic) but well deserved win for Viola! (and I want her dress.....and TM's pantsuit, and Taraji's dress and shoes....godammit!)

 

On that note.....promo??

[cynic]

Aw, good for Viola and I love the shout out. 

 

...It's not out of the question that the new plotline will be more compelling than the old one (although it would help if they would quit shuttling between "trust us because we're the same writers" and "trust us because we're new writers"), but if the character announcement was accurate and they really are going for Yeoman and Beldame Smith, UST superspies, I'd probably vote for Victor Garber. JMO.

Well yeah, if I had to vote for one, I would prefer Garber over sexy Betsy. I'm afraid we're stuck with her for the meantime though. Really though, I'd personally rather have neither, at least for a little while. I miss focusing on the Crane and Abbie fighting the Apocalypse. 

[Indi]

“We just felt, because of last season and some of the responses from the fans, that we should probably give Crane’s family a rest.”

 

Thank god for small favors. I'm saying small, because there's still the Katrina 2.0 issue and all the Ichy focus-pulling flashbacks. All it means is that there won't be Ichy family drama for a while, but I still expect lots of Ichy drama. I don't think this relief will last long though. If there is a S4, I'm sure the CFD will be back with a vengeance.

 

So, not really SH news, but still media involving a SH actor.

 

In her acceptance speech for the Emmy for Best Lead Actress - Drama, Viola Davis - during her thank you/acceptance speech - gave a little shoutout to the most prominent and well-known black women in today's TV landscape....

 

To quote, "The TarajiPHensons, The KerryWashingtons, The HalleBerrys, the NicoleBeharies".....!!!

 

That's right baby! Loved it - teared me up, man. And (offtopic) but well deserved win for Viola! (and I want her dress.....and TM's pantsuit, and Taraji's dress and shoes....godammit!)

 

On that note.....promo??

 

That whole speech was amazing! Congrats to Viola!

 

[DearEvette]

So, not really SH news, but still media involving a SH actor.

 

In her acceptance speech for the Emmy for Best Lead Actress - Drama, Viola Davis - during her thank you/acceptance speech - gave a little shoutout to the most prominent and well-known black women in today's TV landscape....

 

To quote, "The TarajiPHensons, The KerryWashingtons, The HalleBerrys, the NicoleBeharies".....!!!

 

That's right baby! Loved it - teared me up, man. And (offtopic) but well deserved win for Viola! (and I want her dress.....and TM's pantsuit, and Taraji's dress and shoes....godammit!)

 

On that note.....promo??

 

 

I really love what she did there.  She won for leading actress in a drama, so she acknowledged, by name, all the other current black actresses in lead roles in dramas: Kerry, Taraji, Halle, Nicole, Gabrielle and Megan.  She did her homework.  That speech was everything!

 

re: Promo, I am so over Fox I can't stand it.  They ought to be ashamed of themselves.  No a single promo of Sleepy Hollow during the whole telecast.  They promod' every single live action fox show -- multiple times -- except Sleepy Hollow and Bones -- oddly.   There are people who have no idea the show is going to be on Thursdays.  They had great platform, a large audience, probably a very diverse audience given the nomniees and couldn't even throw Sleepy Hollow a bone.

[jhlipton]

There Ichabod Crane and his own family drama, and then there's Crane Family Drama. I wanted to see the former - his poor relationship with his father, leaving his family behind to go to America, does he have siblings, why a teacher at Ofxord, why did he go into the military (probably drafted), as a upper class member, how did he deal with the harsh life, etc etc. I'm thinking more like how we see the lives of people on TURN.

 

I love ya, HD, but I have to agree with the others here -- give any CFD a rest for at least half a season.  Get their footing and their bearings and win us back before going down that road.  At this point, what got Ichy to where he is now isn't half as interesting as what the gang will do going forward.

[Julia]

So, not really SH news, but still media involving a SH actor.

In her acceptance speech for the Emmy for Best Lead Actress - Drama, Viola Davis - during her thank you/acceptance speech - gave a little shoutout to the most prominent and well-known black women in today's TV landscape....

To quote, "The TarajiPHensons, The KerryWashingtons, The HalleBerrys, the NicoleBeharies".....!!!

That's right baby! Loved it - teared me up, man. And (offtopic) but well deserved win for Viola! (and I want her dress.....and TM's pantsuit, and Taraji's dress and shoes....godammit!)

On that note.....promo??

And Alessandra Stanley of the New York Times choked on her lonely mojito.

Awesome.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Julia

[Iamsweetdee]

I really love what she did there.  She won for leading actress in a drama, so she acknowledged, by name, all the other current black actresses in lead roles in dramas: Kerry, Taraji, Halle, Nicole, Gabrielle and Megan.  She did her homework.  That speech was everything!

 

She left out one or two, but the thought was there (Thandie and SRW, for example).  Always happens when trying to name folks. 

[BestestAuntEver]

I saw that and loved it, Halcyon. It helped to make up for a poor day of football predictions.

[Miss Dee]

While there is a long way to go, it's encouraging that in trying to name all the leading black actresses on television one would have to do some homework and not know a scanty 2-3 names off the top of one's head.

[cynic]

 

There Ichabod Crane and his own family drama, and then there's Crane Family Drama. I wanted to see the former - his poor relationship with his father, leaving his family behind to go to America, does he have siblings, why a teacher at Ofxord, why did he go into the military (probably drafted), as a upper class member, how did he deal with the harsh life, etc etc. I'm thinking more like how we see the lives of people on TURN.

I love ya, HD, but I have to agree with the others here -- give any CFD a rest for at least half a season.  Get their footing and their bearings and win us back before going down that road.  At this point, what got Ichy to where he is now isn't half as interesting as what the gang will do going forward.

 

ITA. I enjoy Turn, but that is a very different show. That show is about a spies in the Revolution and it's natural that a large portion of that show will be about what people's lives were like during that time period. SH is about a man out of time and a modern day cop fighting supernatural threats. While we should find some info about BOTH of their lives to enhance the characterization, the show's not about what Crane's life was like in the past. It's about his and Abbie's life now and getting bogged down in backstory just stalls the forward momentum of the current plot. And since season 2 was bogged down by making everything all about Crane's past, I think that it would best if the show focused on something else for a while, like the actual Apocalypse for starters. Once they're back on track, then they can filter in more Crane's family and his previous life, though I would still hope that they used any non-plot specific flashbacks in moderation and didn't lose sight of the present story.

[Trini]

re: Promo, I am so over Fox I can't stand it.  They ought to be ashamed of themselves.  No a single promo of Sleepy Hollow during the whole telecast.  They promod' every single live action fox show -- multiple times -- except Sleepy Hollow and Bones -- oddly.   There are people who have no idea the show is going to be on Thursdays.  They had great platform, a large audience, probably a very diverse audience given the nomniees and couldn't even throw Sleepy Hollow a bone.

 

That's really odd. I get not promoting aging Bones, but Sleepy Hollow is worth a mention.