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I, for one, am interested to see if we get to see any more of the Moscow side of things this time. It would be cool to see Stan and the FBI try to shake things up over there, too.

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Reviving this thread to muse a little about future possible plot developments.

 

We've got Martha's gun and Martha's gun lessons. In one of the choppy season promos we got a glimpse of Martha sitting in a toilet cubicle with the little recorder that picks up the bugged pen. She seemed to be crying in anguish/fear. Now we have the new Agent Aderholt chatting her up. He seems bright and he brings "fresh eyes" to the office setup. I predict that he's going to start suspecting her and that eventually she will use the gun on him, possibly to save Phillip, even after she knows how deeply Phillip has betrayed her. 

 

I really enjoy Martha's character and the fake marriage (at times hilarious and at times scary intense) and I hope her story line has unexpected twists.

Edited by RedHawk
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Interesting.

 

I could see Martha beginning an attraction to him, getting closer, realizing she jumped at the first guy to come on to her, and there are other fish in the sea.  After an argument with Clark, or after his refusal to consider kids, she may begin to confide in Aderholt it bits and drabs.  Aderholt might be the one to figure out Clark is not exactly on the up and up.

 

I keep thinking the gun comes into play on Clark, but it could easily go either way.

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The thing about Martha is that every time the producers have talked about that "marriage", they have specifically cited examples in which, upon hearing the truth, the deceived woman would refuse to believe it despite all evidence. The show is pretty devoted to showing things as they were (with some obvious veers off the course), and I keep thinking the showrunners have been basically telling us this will happen.

 

Then again, they may just be throwing us off to hit us with a hell of a twist!

 

I have a storyline theory of my own, concerning Paige. I think before she even finds out about her parents, something's going to happen at night when they're out, like Henry getting really sick or the house being burgled. And I think when asked by doctors or cops, Paige, without even knowing what her parents are up to, will cover for them. Which would make for an interesting feeling in that house, this idea of "Paige knows that something's up, she just doesn't necessarily want to know what it is anymore". It's a third option with Paige, letting her live in semi-ignorance if that's what she wants.

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And I think when asked by doctors or cops, Paige, without even knowing what her parents are up to, will cover for them.

 

 

I agree that this is quite likely. Children fall in with whatever seems normal to them and will defend it even though they know it's not normal. They often follow the "family line", similar to the "Party line", when dealing with outsiders. Paige does know, at least subconsciously, that her parents are hiding things and not telling the kids the truth. Remember that crazy "vacation" they took suddenly last season? Paige made it clear she was not buying into that but she eventually rolled with it. 

 

If Paige does cover, perhaps Elizabeth will see it as an example of how she's "ready" to know the truth, and Phillip will be sad to realize how aware his daughter is that they are not a "normal" family.

Edited by RedHawk
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The KGB been bugging P& E work cars to see what they been saving.  And they not been liking what they have been hearing

 

This has been bothering me for a while, actually.  They both speak so freely`and it might just be one of those "just go with it, it would take up too much time to show them regularly check their home for bugs" things that go along with any premise.  However, since they are almost constantly bugging the hell out of other places, it is a little distracting that they seldom bother to try and cover their conversations any longer.  

 

Even poor, dim Annalise attempted to reveal what she (at least thought) she was doing in a covert manner.  Maybe it would just be too much of a dramatic strain to always have to show Phillip and Elizabeth putting on some kind of cover sound and whispering everything directly into the others ear.  It would be sort of comedic to try and have the fight like that.  So maybe it is just one of the "just go with it" deals.  

 

But every time the show does something like "significant shot of the Gadd's pen" I wonder who might be listening to Elizabeth and Phillip.  Clearly not anyone in the FBI...because we have met the show's depiction of them and the only time they actually twig to something important is to better set them up to have their butts collectively kicked, killed or exploited.   

 

It would be pretty funny if the show just incorporated the regularly found bug in Phillip and Elizabeth's home.  Like P&E know not to talk by the living room foyer table, because that's where the most recent bug was found.  Then later Elizabeth is gesturing significantly to the coffee maker in the kitchen and moving away from it.  Just something that would show they know they aren't trusted.  That was supposed to be such a significant part of the KGB and the East German Stasi, etc.  They kept people in line by making them believe they were always watched.  

 

In fact, tapes from the Stasi were released after the reunification (fairly long after) of people like Katrina Witt being recorded, so it wasn't just some legend.   

Edited by stillshimpy
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Wanted to throw out an idea for how things come to a head with Paige: In Fall '82, Kathy Boudin, one of the last fugitives from the Weather Underground was captured and it got a fair amount of news coverage. I'm half-expecting that coverage to become part of the story line here, i.e. Paige reads about it and begins to think that, given Gregory's criminal activities, her parents might well have been involved in something similar and all of the fishy stuff about having no relatives and taking weird trips in the middle of the night means they're '60s activists on the run.

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Wanted to throw out an idea for how things come to a head with Paige: In Fall '82, Kathy Boudin, one of the last fugitives from the Weather Underground was captured and it got a fair amount of news coverage. I'm half-expecting that coverage to become part of the story line here, i.e. Paige reads about it and begins to think that, given Gregory's criminal activities, her parents might well have been involved in something similar and all of the fishy stuff about having no relatives and taking weird trips in the middle of the night means they're '60s activists on the run.

 

 

That is exactly what I'm expecting to happen to, that Paige thinks she's figured out her parents' secret and it's this. Makes perfect sense. It's a smart conclusion based on the info she has.

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There was some discussion in the 3.8 thread about how long the show could go on and where it would end. Assuming that it goes five or six years, rather than going year-by-year, I can see a jump in time to when the Berlin Wall fell. We would see how Philip and Elizabeth dealt with this and where Paige and all the other characters are. That's assuming that the creators either know how long they want to go, or that FX lets them know the last season is the last season.

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Years, ago, on a trip to Europe, I met a man who had spent his whole life as an East German communist, only to see the Berlin Wall fall.  He was lost and shattered.  Everything he had been taught -- everything he believed in -- had crumbled apart.    

 

Absent some kind of epiphany, that's how I expect Elizabeth to react.  Phillip could gladly stay in the US as a budding capitalist.  (Assuming either or both still live and have the freedom to choose.  Unrealistic assumptions.) 

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The KGB basically just had a bad few months and then changed their name.  I think Philip and Elizabeth would still have a job, if they wanted it.

 

Speculated in the episode thread that it would be smarter for "Clark" to die than for them to kill Martha.  With the threat to the USA and FBI now dead, why would Martha confess and ruin what's left of her life.

 

On the flip side, if SHE died right after the bug was found, they would be scrubbing her life, her apartment, neighbors, parents with a everything they had.  Why risk a stray print, or hair, or any of it?

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Umbelina, even if Clark dies, that doesn't stop the FBI from investigating.  That investigation (lie detector, e.g.) could easily uncover Martha.  Martha could then give a near-perfect description of Clark -- and maybe his 'sister' as well.  Stan would probably recognize Phillip in the artist's sketch.  P&E's covers are blown. 

 

If the KGB kills Martha, they avoid all that.  They can stage the death, make it look like suicide.  They can plant evidence, including hairs and fingerprints and anything else that points in other directions besides P&E.  This lets them control events far more than simply hoping that both a) Martha stays silent, and b) the FBI never discovers who placed the bug.  

 

Time is their enemy though.  It seems to me if they do act, they will do so real soon. 

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Absent some kind of epiphany, that's how I expect Elizabeth to react.  Phillip could gladly stay in the US as a budding capitalist.  (Assuming either or both still live and have the freedom to choose.  Unrealistic assumptions.)

Thats one of the ways I see this show ending. The Berlin Wall falls, and we see Elizabeth watching on TV, utterly horrified, while Philip just looks thoughtful. I could see Philip being upset that all the sacrifices he made, and all the people he killed, were basically for nothing, but he would bounce back, and try to settle in the US, or somewhere where he could just live a quiet life. Elizabeth would be devastated. 

 

Of course, the other way I see the show playing out is something happening (with the kids?) that makes Philip finally defect, and Elizabeth is ordered to kill him. The only thing is, I am really not sure how that would play out...

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Personally I am not sure where it will end and I am not making any particular guesses especially real world guesses. My major point in the 3.8 episode thread was that the show can't go on forever and has no intention to. I cannot see it lasting until the wall falls. That is a long time for an episodic show and actors will get tired and want to leave to play new rolls and there is no way the quality can continue for another decade. I see another three years tops.

Which means one of two things: the Jennings get caught or they don't. Both are possible outcomes that I would very much like to see. I would very much like to see the Jennings do everything asked of them and yet Russian Communism fails and the Berlin Wall falls and the effect that ultimately has on them. I would also like to see Philip make a desperate move to save his children and confess to Stan not realizing that Martha has already done it. The confrontation scene alone would be worth the price of admission.

<~~~<<edited because my phone likes to make up words.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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Umbelina, even if Clark dies, that doesn't stop the FBI from investigating.  That investigation (lie detector, e.g.) could easily uncover Martha.  Martha could then give a near-perfect description of Clark -- and maybe his 'sister' as well.  Stan would probably recognize Phillip in the artist's sketch.  P&E's covers are blown. 

 

If the KGB kills Martha, they avoid all that.  They can stage the death, make it look like suicide.  They can plant evidence, including hairs and fingerprints and anything else that points in other directions besides P&E.  This lets them control events far more than simply hoping that both a) Martha stays silent, and b) the FBI never discovers who placed the bug.  

 

Time is their enemy though.  It seems to me if they do act, they will do so real soon. 

No matter what they do about Martha, it's problematic.  There is no way in hell they could eliminate all traces of Clark in Martha's apartment.  Even if they painted the entire place, that would be a huge red flag.

 

Martha suddenly dying now though?  To me that's the worst thing they could do, the FBI is on high alert, any death would be investigated with the proverbial "fine toothed comb" and every single inch of her life would get the same treatment. 

 

I think eventually she would probably be killed, but for now?  They need a different solution.  Philip has been too sloppy about prints, hairs, touching wine bottles or toothpaste tubes, all of it.  He got a bit too complacent as things went on, or maybe it was inevitable.  I can't imagine that no one else has ever seen him come or go either, I'm sure he tried to cover that, but it's a fricking apartment, someone could have been looking out the window, etc.

 

Thats one of the ways I see this show ending. The Berlin Wall falls, and we see Elizabeth watching on TV, utterly horrified, while Philip just looks thoughtful. I could see Philip being upset that all the sacrifices he made, and all the people he killed, were basically for nothing, but he would bounce back, and try to settle in the US, or somewhere where he could just live a quiet life. Elizabeth would be devastated. 

 

Of course, the other way I see the show playing out is something happening (with the kids?) that makes Philip finally defect, and Elizabeth is ordered to kill him. The only thing is, I am really not sure how that would play out...

Or, disillusioned, with no good solutions, they are simply forced to be absorbed (as most KGB were) into the new KGB, the FSB.

 

"Light covers" which is what Philip used, are not designed to stand up to intense scrutiny.

Edited by Umbelina
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Well, after reading this thread, I'm wondering if there could be a gas explosion in Martha's building.  It destroys her entire apt and all its contents, plus Martha.  They could even place a body inside they could determine is her fake husband or the one the neighbors say was coming to stay overnight once a week.  And Martha's parents would also have to die right, since they could identify Clark?

 

I've been trying to imagine how the show ends with this family.  Will we be able to see this on The Americans?  Who do Philip and Elizabeth report to when The Center fails to exist?  There are still Russian spies here, no?

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The show doesn't usually go in for the whole "OMG, so and so has been working for X all along but really they're working for Y!" Everyone keeps predicting that somebody's going to do that and they never do. The closest they come is when a character is marked as having something off about them. Jared, for instance, was a mystery from day one, as is Zinaida. Hiding Martha being a double agent is a trick that erases the stuff we're watching now. 

 

Plus I love that the FBI now orchestrated the murder of Betty because they couldn't be bothered to take any safety precautions for their own bugging of the mail robot. 

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Yeah, but Martha suddenly being all Suzy Homemaker, everything is FINE Clark, oh by the way the Mail Robot is out for repair, and ooops!  There is the phone! right after realizing Clark is bugging the FBI, and is NOT on the US side?

 

Martha confessing makes sense.  The FBI turning the tables and possibly feeding bad info through the Mail Robot, or following Clark to lead to other spies?  Rings true.  We didn't find out THIS week, that doesn't mean we won't find out next week.

 

Also, I agree that Stan is no longer trusted much.  Interesting.

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Yeah, but Martha suddenly being all Suzy Homemaker, everything is FINE Clark, oh by the way the Mail Robot is out for repair, and ooops!  There is the phone! right after realizing Clark is bugging the FBI, and is NOT on the US side?

Martha confessing makes sense.  The FBI turning the tables and possibly feeding bad info through the Mail Robot, or following Clark to lead to other spies?  Rings true.  We didn't find out THIS week, that doesn't mean we won't find out next week.

Also, I agree that Stan is no longer trusted much.  Interesting.

 

 

I don't see Martha being strange in that scene at all, actually. Last week she accepted Clark's claims of love and slept with him. Now she's moving forward with that--she's always been Suzy Homemaker with Clark. The story about Gaad seemed like Martha coming up with ways she protect herself, hopefully. If she confessed she'd be in big trouble.

 

We could, of course, find out next week that we missed Martha's whole confession and the FBI coming up with a plan for her, but I'd still think it was annoying that Gaad and Amador didn't, that I remember, act like there was any new operation going on at all. And I can't see how the Jennings aren't just blown at this point. 

Edited by sistermagpie
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I did read it but it didn't really present anything new to me. I don't think they ought to need Stan to blow Philip's identity if they've got Clark. If the whole point is to watch Clark to see what he does, watch him be Philip. 

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I just think they may feel Stan is a mole.  He's met secretly with a KGB agent at least twice now, and as an FBI agent he is REQUIRED to report those meetings.  It's not optional.  He acted quite wonky about Nina too, and now they are dealing with the pen bug as well.  Stan's already a few steps over lines FBI are allowed to cross, quite a few really, and I don't think they bought his story about what just happened with Zenaida either.

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I completely believe they don't trust Stan--nor should they. The guy's record since he got there has been horrible. And wait, why are we even saying they think he's a mole? He pretty much is one! He's compromised.

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Stan has had issues, but he did shoot that assassin once.  Recall the guy was going to a laundry mat?  I can't recall how, but Stan came out the hero on that one.  Still, he's had some issues, but so has Gaad.

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Stan's in deep shit.  He's colluding with a KGB agent over a spy girlfriend.  He's breaking all kinds of oaths to do that, not to mention rules.  He's also likely under surveillance, after the pen bug, and perhaps before that too, with his questionable fighting for Nina.  If the FBI, or at the very least Taffet, isn't watching him like a hawk?  Then they truly are incompetent.

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I think Martha's phone call with the child services was a dead give-away. She was unusually calm while telling them she had changed her mind about adopting.

The (slightly) surprising thing to me about that call was its time.  It was the evening.  Martha had finished work; Clark had just arrived for dinner.  Would child services call at that hour?

 

I felt either the call was genuine -- in which case Martha was showing her further submission to Clark -- or it was a checkup call.  The main problem with a checkup call is that it means the FBI is onto P&E and the show has pretty well come to an end. 

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All Stan has to do is be spotted with Oleg and he's suspect #1 in the office bugging. Probably would be immediately arrested. What soes he think will happen -- Nina will return to his arms? Unbeknownst to both Oleg and Stan, she's doing fine for herself. Give her a couple of weeks and she'll work her way up to being Andropov's mistress.

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I'm wondering about two major real-works things that have to factor in. The first is KAL 007, which was shot down in August 1983. With Paige now knowing, how does that play into the Jennings' worldview. I don't know how it was portrayed in the USSR, but here it was shown as as close to evil as one could be.

 

The second, silly as it sounds, is the movie Red Dawn, which was released in 1984. Very popular, especially with kids Henry's age. 

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I'm wondering about two major real-works things that have to factor in. The first is KAL 007, which was shot down in August 1983. With Paige now knowing, how does that play into the Jennings' worldview. I don't know how it was portrayed in the USSR, but here it was shown as as close to evil as one could be.

 

The second, silly as it sounds, is the movie Red Dawn, which was released in 1984. Very popular, especially with kids Henry's age. 

 

You may want to scoot over to wikipedia which lists the episode titles, and look at the title for the season finale. And then look up (also in wikipedia - just search for that date to see what significant events took place) what Reagan did on that date.

 

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(edited)

I've been reading all the speculation on Martha being a double-agent, and I don't believe it one bit. For stylistic reasons. Logically, all the specualtion is plausible. However, this is not Alias, or X-Files, or Lost. The writers of this series have always written it such that the audience knows everything even though the individual characters do not. Even back in season 1, where they mislead the most ("The colonel") and let the audience go down the garden path of thinking that the colonel was a double-agent, the actuals were pretty straight-forward. There was no conspiracy within conspiracy within conspiracy plotting which is the hallmark of so much garbage (I'm looking at you - Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D) out there on TV.

 

Yes, Zinaida, is a conspiracy within a conspiracy, but the key thing to note is that the audience is very much in on it.

 

Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Edited by parandroid
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So is this trip to Kenya a device for the couple to get their daughter out of the house and their spying business for next season?  Wouldn't it make more sense to send her on this trip BEFORE spilling the beans.  Now, she could be tempted to let her guard down when in another country and sharing with others.  Still, I just can't figure out what they are going to do with her now that she knows.  Does she just carry on as normal?  I can't see her actually joining in, just yet.  Maybe, she'll want to go away to a boarding school or something.  I wouldn't mind if she did leave for some reason. The character annoys me.

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(edited)

Okay, I just looked up the Reagan speech on the season finale date title. So, he gave that speech to the association of evangelicals. Does Paige or her church count as evangelicals? I have to admit I'm kind of unfamiliar with churches that are supposedly very liberal. I still think they ought to have Paige betray her parents to Stan at some point. I think it's believable, I think she'd do it, and I think this is how they could get Philip (not Elizabeth) to flip and save the kids.

 

Plus, with Martha and Paige finding out big things this season, they can't have Stan in the dark forever. I could totally see him ultimately cutting a deal with Philip to take down Elizabeth (and others) in the end. Admittedly, I'd really like for that to happen because I hate Elizabeth.

 

The other thing is, obviously, she's going to be the one defending the Soviet Union to Paige and all the things they do (not sure if they're going to end up telling her about all the murders they commit), but is Philip? I can't see that. I don't even think he believes in this Cause anymore, he only stays because of Elizabeth. Paige isn't going to get a two-pronged, full-throated defense of the SU from her parents, she may even be able to pick up on Philip's reluctance about all of it eventually. And that could add to her deciding to betray them.

Edited by ruby24
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Does he? He's never said anything that makes me think he believes in Socialism particularly. He bought that new car because he wanted it, he bought Paige that album because he felt like giving her something. Plus, obviously the biggest factor is that he actively wanted to defect in the first episode. I haven't really seen anything from him (other than his aversion to religion, but there are plenty of non-religious Americans) that suggests he still wouldn't be willing to give all this up if Elizabeth wanted to.

 

He doesn't want his kids a part of it, he doesn't want to have to kill Martha. To me his love for Elizabeth is the one thing that keeps him committed to this.

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(edited)

Being tired and wanting to get out of the spy game does not mean he has different political views. He wanted to retire, not fight for the other side either. He might not spout rhetoric like Elizabeth but he's agreed with her about basic things, he seems openly invested in the Soviet side when the Cold War comes up, he was once shown reading a socialist book, he's never argued about capitalism being better either. The producers have said he has no problem doing his job, that the Socialist cause is "bred into his bones." I don't think it's something he thinks about, but when he told Paige what he did he sounded perfectly happy with it. If he thought he was working for something that was bad I think he'd feel even more negatively about it than he does.

 

Philip could just as easily be a jaded, exhausted American spy who would be happy to give all this up if his wife would, who didn't want his kids part of the spy game and didn't want to kill his second Russian wife. It wouldn't mean he wasn't fine with other people continuing the fight on the US side.

Edited by sistermagpie
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I don't know- I just haven't seen the evidence of him being that committed. I mean yeah, he was raised on it, but that doesn't necessarily mean he feels passionately about it either. He's often been disappointed by the people on their side too, unlike Elizabeth. Remember how angry he was when the two of them were kidnapped just so that their loyalties could be tested? I remember him saying something like, look at what they did to us, our own people.

 

I see plenty of evidence that Elizabeth truly and passionately believes in this stuff, but not him. I see him as a soldier forced and trained to fight for his country, but doesn't really have the ideological fire to be on any side personally, just trained to do what he's told (there are lots of soldiers like that in the U.S. military for example). I'd be surprised if he's the one who starts preaching any of the politics to Paige, but I expect Elizabeth to do that immediately.

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(edited)

Why does he have to feel passionately about it? He was raised on it, he believes in it, he works for it. We know he'd prefer to keep his kids safer by retiring, but he's not interested in voting for Ronald Reagan either, so what else does he need to believe in the cause? Most people don't passionately believe in the things they believe on the level that Elizabeth does, but it's still what they think is right.

 

I do think that the things he has said about the world that show how he thinks are not at all in conflict with him believing in the cause. He seems to see the world as full of predators and wants to protect the innocent. He doesn't feel like he's succeeding, but I would be surprised if he didn't still honestly wish for a world like the one he dreamed he could make based on how he understood the cause.

 

I think when the USSR falls he'll be able to adjust and that he's found other things to believe in other than needing to think he's fixing the world like Elizabeth seems to do, but to me that's not the same thing as no longer believing in the cause at all. There's just many ways to make a difference in the same direction.

 

Also when it is clear how important something is he shows enthusiasm. He ran back with that tape about Afghanistan in this ep, he was eager to go after the CIA guy to begin with, he's been happy enough on jobs in the past, he was horrified to  hear the first news about Star Wars, was eager to find out about what Larrick was doing in Nicaragua.

Edited by sistermagpie
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Yeah, but there's Americans who didn't like Reagan or Star Wars either. I'm just saying I don't see a lot of overt, particularly Socialist beliefs rather than leftist in general.

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Yeah, but there's Americans who didn't like Reagan or Star Wars either. I'm just saying I don't see a lot of overt, particularly Socialist beliefs rather than leftist in general.

 

 

But if Americans are still Americans even when they oppose Reagan and Star Wars why does Philip have to show overt Socialist beliefs (by which I assume you mean stating specifically how the principles of Socialism are superior or whatever) beyond general leftist ones in order to be Soviet when he's lying and killing for that system without really much regret? Regret for hurting innocent people, but not regret that he's doing all this in the service of something that is in itself harmful to the world.

 

I just can't imagine if the countries were flipped and Philip was a tired CIA-man who wanted to quit and never said much about US-style democracy we'd assume that he was now Soviet or royalist or whatever.

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