"What?!?": In Which We Attempt to Address the WTFery of SPN Lore and Whatnot

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yes, Castiel knew something was off about Sam as soon as he saw the creepy way that Sam looked in on Dean and then walked away (In the flashback in "The Man Who Would Be King"), but he had too many other things to be concerned about to do more than think "hmmm, that's unexpected," and then move on. rather than look into it. I guess you could also say that maybe he didn't want to look a gift horse in the mouth and/or would rather be ignorant than know actually what the deal was, but considering he didn't really find the time any time in that year to check things out or even see what Sam was up to - which it wouldn't have taken much investigation to figure out that = bad - in general Sam wasn't much of a priority at that time anymore.

It's not so much that he didn't "look into it" as the fact that the alpha vamp could smell that Sam had no soul because he was cold and the leprechaun could just sense it. Neither of those two did any research, nor had they met Sam before, but they could just tell. And an angel couldn't?  Nope.  Cas was lying.  He knew all along which was partly why he never fessed up to having pulled Sam out in the first place.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Cas was lying.  He knew all along which was partly why he never fessed up to having pulled Sam out in the first place.

I pretty much agree in the time after he saw Sam again, but I'm not so sure Castiel knew in the beginning, while watching Sam after he brought him back. Because in Castiel's recollections in "The Man Who Would Be King," Castiel was confessing confusion there - and was saying that he should have known something was wrong, but instead just walked away. There would be no reason for him to lie in his confession, because there would be no real reason why he would lie out loud to himself (if Castiel thought that God wasn't listening) and God would know if he was lying anyway (if God was listening). So I think at first Castiel didn't know what was going on - and he didn't want to know (which is why he stayed away). Maybe he thought it was some sort of residual soul damage from having been in the cage for a bit, and thought he'd just tell himself that and that it would get better and just not check so he wouldn't know for sure. But later on, if he did bother to check up on Sam, and especially after he came back into Sam's and Dean's lives, that's a little more difficult to explain away... I think Castiel had to have know then or at least have a pretty big suspicion.

Which is why I felt so badly for Sam when he asked Castiel if Cas brought him back soulless on purpose, because I could see why Sam might think that and how that would hurt him.

[ahrtee]

Having just rewatched In the Beginning and trying to reconcile that Mary (who hated hunting and desperately wanted a normal life) and that John (who was "a mechanic from a family of mechanics") to the characters they turned into by seasons 12-13, I've come up with the perfect solution:

They're the products of a changed timeline.

Think about it--when a timeline changes, apparently everything changes instantly as if it's always been that way (except, of course, for ep. 300 when our heroes know what's different *sigh*)  But in My Heart Will Go On, Mystery Spot, and any other time the timeline changed, not only did it happen immediately (including adding/subtracting multiple generations of people who otherwise would never have been born/died) but it could also apparently be reversed instantly if whoever/whatever did it changed their minds. 

Spoiler

(Which, of course, begs the question of why the Winchesters were so adamant that John had to be sent back *immediately* instead of having at least a lovely weekend with his family, not to say spending the rest of his life with them and only smashing the pearl on his deathbed, at which point everything would instantly revert.)  But that comes under bitterness, not WTF, I guess. 😕

(Spoiler tagged in case someone hasn't seen ep. 300 yet.)

So...someone's been screwing around with the timeline, and things change randomly and the Winchesters never recognize it.  That's how John could both be MoL line (and Grandpa Campbell didn't know?) and from a family of mechanics (not to mention both an obsessed abusive asshole and a worried/concerned father).  How no one knew how the Campbells actually died. 

That's how in SPN time they should be 2 years ahead of now, but in RT they're still in 2019.  How President Jeff managed to sneak in between Obama (mentioned in Time after Time) and Trump (mentioned in Exodus (or one of the AU eps--I can't keep them straight.)  How Reapers became angels and dead archangels randomly reappear, and how apparently now anyone can kill any of them with no repercussions.  How new, previously unknown generations of higher up demons can suddenly appear as if they've been here all along.  😊 

Maybe Chuck was still editing/rewriting all those years he was on earth.  It can explain every bit of WTF canon change without making anyone blink.  

And it's our problem that we still remember the way things *used* to be. *sigh*

Edited March 5, 2019 by ahrtee
fixed punctuation.

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Think about it--when a timeline changes, apparently everything changes instantly as if it's always been that way (except, of course, for ep. 300 when our heroes know what's different *sigh*)  But in My Heart Will Go On, Mystery Spot, and any other time the timeline changed, not only did it happen immediately (including adding/subtracting multiple generations of people who otherwise would never have been born/died) but it could also apparently be reversed instantly if whoever/whatever did it changed their minds. 

I've decided the only way it makes sense is that Sam and Dean (and Mary) were left outside of the wish because, in the case of Sam and Dean they were both in the same room when Dean made the wish, and in case of Mary, she was probably part of the wish as Dean not only wanted his dad, but his whole family together.  New timeline Sam and Dean were probably out running around somewhere.  We know that new versions of them existed. Or, if they weren't running around, maybe they disappeared (or didn't appear) when the wish was made, due to the nature of Sam and Dean being outside the timeline.

Other than that, I'm rejecting your hypothesis, purely on the notion that I hate time travel and alternate timelines:)

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Other than that, I'm rejecting your hypothesis, purely on the notion that I hate time travel and alternate timelines:)

I once sent a birthday card to a friend who hated all cards (and birthday recognition) that said: 

"I know you don't believe in birthday cards, but there is, in fact, proof that they exist."  

There may not be proof of time travel/AUs, but there is proof that writers use it (over and over!) no matter who/how much people hate it. 😊

(Personally, I hate it as a go-to fix-it, but don't mind it when it's the point of the story, as in My Heart Shall Go On).

And in the immortal words of various Star Trek characters (paraphrased):  "Time travel gives me a headache." 

Edited March 5, 2019 by ahrtee
clarifying.

[rue721]

I love the idea of a bunch of fucked up and ever-changing timelines. It fits with the idea that universes are all different stories/drafts that Chuck wrote. And you know how it is, a writer is never REALLY done with a draft, there's always going to be another reread and another tweak...

For the purposes of the 300th episode specifically, though, I think it would have made more sense if the pearl had yanked John out of an AU in which he had survived and was still alive in 2019. I would also have loved to see the versions of present-day Sam and Dean that would have existed in that AU!

[gonzosgirrl]

I would like everything that happened from the climax of 11x23 onward to be an AU based on a fever dream of Dean's from having all those souls shoved into him. If he just woke up in the pretty garden with a free lifetime pass to Biggerson's in his pocket as a thank you from Amara, that'd be just fine by me.

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would like everything that happened from the climax of 11x23 onward to be an AU based on a fever dream of Dean's from having all those souls shoved into him. If he just woke up in the pretty garden with a free lifetime pass to Biggerson's in his pocket as a thank you from Amara, that'd be just fine by me.

That would be fine, except that I don't think even a feverish Dean could dream up such f'd up storylines as the last two/three years. 😐

[juppschmitz]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would like everything that happened from the climax of 11x23 onward to be an AU based on a fever dream of Dean's from having all those souls shoved into him. If he just woke up in the pretty garden with a free lifetime pass to Biggerson's in his pocket as a thank you from Amara, that'd be just fine by me.

So, so, so much this. This is the one head canon (apart from Dean being adooted) that keeps me mentally interested in Dabb's shenanigans.

Except in my head canon it's a carburettor instead of the Biggerson's pass. Or even just a pony...

Edited March 6, 2019 by juppschmitz

[Cambion]

10 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

So, so, so much this. This is the one head canon (apart from Dean being adooted) that keeps me mentally interested in Dabb's shenanigans.

Except in my head canon it's a carburettor instead of the Biggerson's pass. Or even just a pony...

No, no...a UNICORN!

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, Cambion said:

No, no...a UNICORN!

Hee... except a non-evil one. (How I miss season 7's humor)

[ahrtee]

My next bit of WTF (or lol-canon) (I have to stop rewatching the earlier seasons....)

1.  Only Chuck can create new angels.  Humans can't become angels.   Angels can't create them (or they would have repopulated heaven by now.)  But apparently any angel can create a nephilim?  And apparently the only thing stopping them is a prohibition/Prime Directive *not* to, and the fear that they're...what?  Evil?  Too powerful?  

2.  But...angels have been involved in a war, killing each other.  Surely that's against the rules, too?  So I think the rulebook has been ripped up by now.

3.  Jack is (apparently) not evil, so nothing to fear.  The only other nephilim we saw was working as a waitress and not causing any problems to anyone.  So nephilim don't seem to be inherently dangerous.  (Even Jesse the Antichrist wasn't inherently evil, and apparently could be "trained" into being good.)  (And, since demons don't seem to have any prohibitions on procreation, why aren't there a whole herd of antichrists wandering around?...but that's a WTF for another post.)  

4.  The angels have seen Jack and tried to "hijack" him. (sorry😊) to try to get  him to create more angels.  So nephilim can create more angels?  Or is it only archangel nephilim?

5.  So...solution:  let the angels start creating little nephilim of their own.  (Of course, being angels, they'd have to get the permission of the humans to be angel-surrogate parents😐).  But in any event, either the nephilim can self-procreate (making more angels) or can at least join the heavenly workforce themselves.  And wouldn't having beings both human and angels in charge make heaven a more "understanding" place?  

I was also going to go into the WTF-ness of Anna, who was an angel, then lost her grace and was "born again" human, then regained her grace?  Was she then a nephilim, was she born without a soul, or was her soul burned out when her grace was returned so she was purely an angel again?  But again, that's a whole different question.  *sigh*

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

But apparently any angel can create a nephilim?  And apparently the only thing stopping them is a prohibition/Prime Directive *not* to, and the fear that they're...what?  Evil?  Too powerful?  

I think originally (Metatron?) said they were abominations - so not necessarily 'evil' but a monstrosity in the eyes of 'Heaven'. Still, I guess all that's needed to overcome that is to be born to the kindest, sweetest, bravest, most special mother who ever mothered (Sorry Mary (and I don't mean Winchester)).

But yeah, the clearly don't care any more about Nephilim lore and canon than they do anything else.

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think originally (Metatron?) said they were abominations - so not necessarily 'evil' but a monstrosity in the eyes of 'Heaven'. Still, I guess all that's needed to overcome that is to be born to the kindest, sweetest, bravest, most special mother who ever mothered (Sorry Mary (and I don't mean Winchester)).

But yeah, the clearly don't care any more about Nephilim lore and canon than they do anything else.

To be fair, Metatron said lots of things that weren't true. He did have to get Cas to kill a nephilim, so he couldn't very well say she was just a nice normal person who happened to have some powers.

[gonzosgirrl]

55 minutes ago, Katy M said:

To be fair, Metatron said lots of things that weren't true. He did have to get Cas to kill a nephilim, so he couldn't very well say she was just a nice normal person who happened to have some powers.

Angels were also intent on killing a Nephilim in Lily Sunder, albeit under false pretenses. They didn't know she wasn't actually a Nephilm, but they were willing to kill her thinking she was. By the time of Clip Show, there was only one known on Earth, so there must be something inherently wrong with them to be such aberrations. Or it's just considered so gross for an angel to have sex with that no angels were willing to cross the line? 

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Angels were also intent on killing a Nephilim in Lily Sunder, albeit under false pretenses. They didn't know she wasn't actually a Nephilm, but they were willing to kill her thinking she was. By the time of Clip Show, there was only one known on Earth, so there must be something inherently wrong with them to be such aberrations. Or it's just considered so gross for an angel to have sex with that no angels were willing to cross the line? 

The only thing I can think of is a horrible kind of species prejudice--as if the humans are so far beneath them that it would unthinkable to have sex with (in Uriel's words) a "mud monkey."  But (IMO, at least 😊) I've always thought that it was Chuck's intention to have humans influence angels, to combine the good parts of having a soul (ie, compassion, free will, love) with the power and perspective of an angel.  (That was my theory from way back, that Dean was intended to teach Cas about humanity so he could bring it to the angels, but that disappeared over the years.)

So Chuck apparently made it possible that angels and humans *can* procreate, (or at least, that they can take human form in order to procreate), which shouldn't be possible if they were so different.  And the fact that their offspring would wind up being more powerful than either parent would seem to be the point, as in starting the next phase of evolution.

I might have given Kripke credit for thinking of something like that, but now it's just a plot device that no one has any idea about, that changes according to the whims of the writer/showrunner.  

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

(And, since demons don't seem to have any prohibitions on procreation, why aren't there a whole herd of antichrists wandering around?...but that's a WTF for another post.)  

I don't think Jesse was actually as easily created as Castiel seemed to be saying he was. Cas said that Jesse was just "demon spawn," but Jesse wasn't born from a demon having sex with a human. Jesse was born to a woman who was a virgin. Somehow the demon got Jesse's mother pregnant when he possessed her. In my opinion, that was deliberate and a heavy duty supernatural happening, since otherwise woman who had been possessed would be getting pregnant more often.

[Lrdmordain]

Thanks everyone for always doing your best to explain stuff, I frankly would be much more frustrated with this show and its lore without all of you.

A few quick questions having finished my catch-up / rewatch in preparation for the final season.

1. What exactly is Chuck's plan? I've re-watched the last episode of the last season a few times now and I still don't exactly follow. He's upset that Dean wouldn't shoot and kill Jack in service of a grand sacrifice narrative? He basically sees everyone as "characters" in a story he is writing / crafting and since they aren't doing what he wants anymore he's just ending the story as it were? How does this square with the God Chuck that

A. Was just pretending to to be normal writing human chuck, back in season 5 or whatever, and wasn't in anyway involved in anything until Sam and Dean tracked him down. Would that Chuck have eventually revealed himself to be not a normal human and stepped in at some point in the world?

or

B. Was ready and willing to die / sacrifice himself to Amara for the sake of sparring his creations. Why would that Chuck suddenly become a vengeful writer god who kills when the "story" isn't shaping into what he was trying for

Basically I cannot follow current God Chuck's plan, nor how it squares with the character as we've seen it before so I'm hopeful someone else can give some insight

2. Did Jack actually use up his soul to kill Michael? The original woman who gave them the spell said the amount of soul being used to heal / keep Jack together was minimal or that he'd never notice it as I recall, and while I understand the human soul is likely a finite thing, everyone immediately jumps to the idea that Jack completely uses up ALL his soul to kill Michael rather than say the lions share, they basically don't bother to see if he has ANY soul left what so ever. I know given his actions he clearly became more...unstable or less clear headed, but even if he had used it all up they had examples in the past of having no soul not being the same as being evil or bad, yet everyone jumps to treating him like he's suddenly a monster that needs to be killed NOW, way before he accidentally kills Mary.

3. Can Amara bring Mary back? She did it before, and she does have a fondness for Dean, so can't he just ask her to bring Mary back again?

4. Is Lucifer still alive / awake in the Empty? I wasn't really clear on what happened to him at the end of the episode he was featured in. I know the spell / portal got broken, but is that whatever creature that runs the Empty just letting him still be up and around in it?

Edited September 4, 2019 by Lrdmordain

[FlickChick]

On 8/30/2019 at 10:22 PM, Lrdmordain said:

Thanks everyone for always doing your best to explain stuff, I frankly would be much more frustrated with this show and its lore without all of you.

A few quick questions having finished my catch-up / rewatch in preparation for the final season.

1. What exactly is Chuck's plan? I've re-watched the last episode of the last season a few times now and I still dont exactly follow. He's upset that Dean wouldn't shoot and kill Jack in service of a grand sacrifice narrative? He basically sees everyone as "characters" in a story he is writing / crafting and since they aren't doing what he wants anymore he's just ending the story as it were? How does this square with the God Chuck that

A. Was just pretending to to be normal writing human chuck, back in season 5 or whatever, and wasn't in anyway involved in anything until Sam and Dean tracked him down. Would that Chuck have eventually revealed himself to be not a normal human and stepped in at some point in the world?

or

B. Was ready and willing to die / sacrifice himself to Amara for the sake of sparring his creations. Why would that Chuck suddenly become a vengeful writer god who kills when the "story" isn't shaping into what he was trying for

Basically I cannot follow current God Chuck's plan, nor how it squares with the character as we've seen it before so I'm hopeful someone else can give some insight

2. Did Jack actually use up his soul to kill Michael? The original woman who gave them the spell said the amount of soul being used to heal / keep Jack together was minimal or that he'd never notice it as I recall, and while I understand the human soul is likely a finite thing, everyone immediately jumps to the idea that Jack completely uses up ALL his soul to kill Michael rather than say the lions share, they basically don't bother to see if he has ANY soul left what so ever. I know given his actions he clearly became more...unstable or clear headed, but even if he had used it all up they had examples in the past of having no soul not being the same and being evil or bad, yet everyone jumps to treating him like he's suddenly a monster that needs to be killed NOW, way before he accidentally kills Mary.

3. Can Amara bring Mary back? She did it before, and she does have a fondness for Dean, so can't he just ask her to bring Mary back again?

4. Is Lucifer still alive / awake in the Empty? I wasn't really clear on what happened to him at the end of the episode he was featured in. I know the spell / portal got broken, but is that whatever creature that runs the Empty just letting him still be up and around in it?

Yes, isn't it a joy to try to follow this show with logic since none of the writers know what the others are doing! So...

1. Nothing is clearly explained where Chuck/God is concerned as far as I know. He was supposedly a prophet who was receiving the Winchesters' story from "God" until the *wink, wink* season 5 finale where it could be interpreted that he was "God". Then, several seasons later, Chuck was revealed to be God - a writer who was struggling with a manuscript. Chuck then appeared to care enough about the humans to try to destroy his sister - the Darkness, so that the world could continue to survive. Instead, the two of them went off together - leaving Dean and Sam in charge of watching over things. With the introduction of the many worlds (one of which Jack originally opened a portal to), some brilliant writer (*sarcasm*) decided that Chuck should just be a cruel being who "drafted" worlds, and abandoned them when things didn't work out. Another brilliant writer (*sarcasm*) then took it a step further and had Chuck/God turn into an asshole who now wanted the Winchesters to do what He said, when He said, and like a child with a tantrum, said that He was going to break the world that they live in because Sam and Dean didn't do what He said. He also killed Jack because he had the Archangel Michael's grace in him, and apparently that writer wanted to get rid of Michael, once and for all. Of course we all know that Jack will be saved because he is the writer's/showrunner's pet.

2. Again, no one seems to know from episode to episode because the writers don't either. Supposedly, Jack did use all of his soul up, but since a "soulless" person acts differently from one writer to the next, we get no continuity at all. So, pick your poison.

3. Yes, Amara - being a female God - could recreate Mary. I can only pray that she doesn't. That character was ruined for me by - wait for it - the lousy writers.

4. The answer to the fate of Lucifer in the Empty has never been shown, I don't believe. We have to assume he's still there, but whether or not he's awake is anyone's guess. I'm praying daily that he's locked down tight, because if I have to see Mark Pellegrino as Lucifer one more time, I'm liable to throw something at my expensive TV. (This is not about the actor; it's about the waaaaayy past time to end that storyline).

Hoped some of this helps you. But the short version is - don't expect anything logical from these writers and you won't be disappointed because each one writes what they feel like - to hell with previous events, to hell with canon, and unfortunately, to hell with the viewers who really want a well-written creative story. Sorry about that...

Edited September 3, 2019 by FlickChick

[SueB]

On 8/30/2019 at 11:22 PM, Lrdmordain said:

Thanks everyone for always doing your best to explain stuff, I frankly would be much more frustrated with this show and its lore without all of you.

A few quick questions having finished my catch-up / rewatch in preparation for the final season.

1. What exactly is Chuck's plan? I've re-watched the last episode of the last season a few times now and I still don't exactly follow. He's upset that Dean wouldn't shoot and kill Jack in service of a grand sacrifice narrative? He basically sees everyone as "characters" in a story he is writing / crafting and since they aren't doing what he wants anymore he's just ending the story as it were? How does this square with the God Chuck that

A. Was just pretending to to be normal writing human chuck, back in season 5 or whatever, and wasn't in anyway involved in anything until Sam and Dean tracked him down. Would that Chuck have eventually revealed himself to be not a normal human and stepped in at some point in the world?

or

B. Was ready and willing to die / sacrifice himself to Amara for the sake of sparring his creations. Why would that Chuck suddenly become a vengeful writer god who kills when the "story" isn't shaping into what he was trying for

Basically I cannot follow current God Chuck's plan, nor how it squares with the character as we've seen it before so I'm hopeful someone else can give some insight

2. Did Jack actually use up his soul to kill Michael? The original woman who gave them the spell said the amount of soul being used to heal / keep Jack together was minimal or that he'd never notice it as I recall, and while I understand the human soul is likely a finite thing, everyone immediately jumps to the idea that Jack completely uses up ALL his soul to kill Michael rather than say the lions share, they basically don't bother to see if he has ANY soul left what so ever. I know given his actions he clearly became more...unstable or less clear headed, but even if he had used it all up they had examples in the past of having no soul not being the same as being evil or bad, yet everyone jumps to treating him like he's suddenly a monster that needs to be killed NOW, way before he accidentally kills Mary.

3. Can Amara bring Mary back? She did it before, and she does have a fondness for Dean, so can't he just ask her to bring Mary back again?

4. Is Lucifer still alive / awake in the Empty? I wasn't really clear on what happened to him at the end of the episode he was featured in. I know the spell / portal got broken, but is that whatever creature that runs the Empty just letting him still be up and around in it?

1. "Writer's Lie" - was constantly said during that last episode "Moriah".  My guess: we won't really know Chuck's motivation until we see him talking with someone other than Team Free Will.  He was clearly manipulating TFW in "Moriah" and pissed.  But was he always that way? I think we'll find out but we don't know for certain right now. 

2. They had Dean take Jack to Donatello to see if Jack had a soul.  Now, that's a weird choice because you would think Cas could have put his hand inside Jack like he did with Sam and Grandpa Campbell.  Fanwank: maybe Cas touching Jack's grace would have been dangerous - if touching Bobby's soul nearly killed them both in "Frontierland", I'm not sure reaching inside Jack would be safe.  So... Donatello.  However Donatello tells Jack to 'fake it til you make it' (-ish) while simultaneously avoiding a direct answer to Dean.

Quote

Donatello: I'd keep an eye on him, but I think if he seems okay, he probably is.
Dean: So he's not like you?
Donatello: Oh, no. I'm a Prophet of the Lord, but he -- Jack's probably the most powerful being in the universe. I mean, really, who knows what's going on inside his head?

And I think "keep and eye" is what they did with Jack (versus treating him like a monster).  Now Cas saw Jack go Kevorkian on the snake and that's a massive red flag.  That should have been a trigger for them to drop everything and engage with Jack.  Jack also started lying to the boys (about not using his powers when he did) in the next episode. And the one after that is when he kills Mary.  So the timeline:
14.14 Jack kills Michael, likely burns off his soul (not sure), at end of episode.
14.15 Dean takes Jack to Donatello - we/Cas see the red flag with the snake. Cas does NOT tell the boys.
14.16 The boys leave Jack in the bunker - he lies about not using his powers.
14.17 Jack kills Mary after another red flag event 
14.18 The boys find out Jack killed Mary and they see his mentally unstable reaction to it
14.19 They put him in a box and it fails
14.20 Dean ultimately refuses to kill Jack, Sam was already iffy and Cas was dead set against it. Chuck kills Jack anyway.
My point: before 14.18 they were 'keeping an eye'.  Throughout 14.18 Jack became a monster to manage in Sam & Dean's mind. 

3. Likely, but Dean doesn't want that anymore.  Because he knows she's got a special Heaven with John.  And he already told Chuck 'no' (although that was a hostage deal which Dean would generally reject on principle).

4.  Lucifer's fate was left vague IMO.  If the writers want him back, he'll be back.  If the writers want him gone, then whatever Jack did 'knocked him out' again and he's back sleeping in the Empty. Personally I think he's gone based on the weird smiley face Shadow dude standing with Death and greeting Jack in 'Moriah'.  
 

Edited September 5, 2019 by SueB

[ahrtee]

(Moved from the Bitter Spoilers thread):

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'll just never accept that Jack's soul was or is human, not even partially. 

ETA for what it's worth,  I never considered Cas to be human after the fall, either. His body was a vessel presumably created by Chuck after Lucifer exploded Jimmy. IMO when Metatron drained his grace, he should've ceased to exist.

They've definitely been  more than a little iffy on what souls are, and what "human" is.  In theory, they seemed to be saying that Jack was born with a human soul from Kelly as well as Lucifer's grace.  They were implying that having both a soul and grace was what made him powerful; but then what, exactly, makes that different from a human vessel with a soul co-existing with angel grace?  (Hannah's vessel's--and even demons' vessels' emotions--seem to be able to affect them now.  Or Anna--who regained her grace after being reborn as a human presumably with a soul.)  I know it's probably something about being born with both equally as opposed to being overridden or sharing, but it was never even considered.

I also agree with you that Cas wasn't "human" after the first time he exploded (back in Swan Song), since Jimmy's soul was in heaven (confirmed later) and so therefore what was recreated was just an empty vessel to be filled with grace.   Cas without grace or a soul (even if he retained Jimmy's and Cas's memories) still wouldn't be fully human, but more like Donatello or Soulless Sam.  *sigh*  

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

In theory, they seemed to be saying that Jack was born with a human soul from Kelly as well as Lucifer's grace.

I get that this is where they are getting 'half human' from, but I still don't buy into it. Humans, soulless or otherwise, don't grow from infants to full-fledged adults in hours.  Even if he has/had a human soul (which is supposedly why he's so powerful), it doesn't make him a human being - he's a supernatural creature.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I get that this is where they are getting 'half human' from, but I still don't buy into it. Humans, soulless or otherwise, don't grow from infants to full-fledged adults in hours.  Even if he has/had a human soul (which is supposedly why he's so powerful), it doesn't make him a human being - he's a supernatural creature.

Well, half-human doesn't make him a human being, especially if the other half is supernatural.  That's not an "ordinary" human, especially if the body has to be strong enough not only to hold both soul and grace without exploding but also able to use both.  Remember angels can create bodies from nothing in seconds, so having one grow in hours isn't much of a trick.

But they seem to be making the case that, regardless of the vessel/shape, the soul is unique and separate.  It's not a half-human soul, it's a human soul sharing space with angelic grace in a particularly strong, specially created body.  So in theory, Jack's soul is/was purely human and could have gotten to heaven.

Of course, that's all moot now (hah!) since his soul is supposedly all gone, and according to canon, can't be restored or recreated.   

ETA:  To clarify, because I think we're actually saying mostly the same thing, I don't think anyone thinks that Jack is an ordinary human, with or without his shiny powers, any more than a mule is entirely either a horse or a donkey.  But I think the writers want us to believe that his soul was entirely human and gave him a human outlook on life.  We can believe it or not, but it doesn't matter any more.  

Edited September 6, 2019 by ahrtee

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Remember angels can create bodies from nothing in seconds,

I don't recall this? Why did they all have to find human hosts after the fall then?

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't recall this? Why did they all have to find human hosts after the fall then?

You're right.  I was thinking of Gabriel creating all the people in the Changing Channels scenarios, not to mention his own duplicates (and the slow-dancing alien), plus Anna having her vessel recreated as a favor (I'm going to assume it was Chuck who recreated Cas.)  

Edited September 6, 2019 by ahrtee

[lmdreamer]

On 9/6/2019 at 4:51 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't recall this? Why did they all have to find human hosts after the fall then?

They did bring Adam back to life in season 5 after the boys salted and burned his body.  Also, I think a lot of the angels were weakened after the fall at the end of season 8.  That's why Hannah was driving Cas everywhere in season 10 instead of flying.

Edited September 22, 2019 by lmdreamer

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

They did bring Adam back to life in season 5 after the boys salted and burned his body.  Also, I think a lot of the angels were weakened after the fall at the end of season 8.  That's why Hannah was driving Cas everywhere in season 10 instead of flying.

They can bring people back to life, but they had to exist in the first place and they have still always needed consent from a live host.

[Smad]

On 9/6/2019 at 9:20 PM, ahrtee said:

They've definitely been  more than a little iffy on what souls are, and what "human" is.  In theory, they seemed to be saying that Jack was born with a human soul from Kelly as well as Lucifer's grace. 

Which doesn't make any sense. Like this whole Jack (and Chuck) story in general. Chuck told us that he created EACH SOUL in existence (and even those for people not born yet). We also know he created grace for archangels/angels.

If he creates souls for people not even born yet, it means he also knew Jack would come to be eventually in the future. Which means he could have prevented Jack from ever being born since he would also know already that Jack would be trouble.

I've never understood that whole 'one soul has the power of 100 suns' (or whatever the number was). Considering how much energy that would be, any human in the presence of a soul free from it's host should burn to a crisp.

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Smad said:

Which doesn't make any sense.

IA completely.  Since apparently any writer can now rewrite canon (and characters, and even any and all events in the show's history) to fit whatever story they're spitting out, nothing makes sense any more.  Continuity?  What's that?

[Smad]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IA completely.  Since apparently any writer can now rewrite canon (and characters, and even any and all events in the show's history) to fit whatever story they're spitting out, nothing makes sense any more.  Continuity?  What's that?

It's one thing when it's sudden and makes no sense. one can chose to ignore it. Like Reapers suddenly being Angels. That's not a canon I accept and happily discard. It was in some one off episode I don't even remember and hasn't been a topic since (I think), so whatever, not my canon.

But when they can't keep to canon inside one Season or even from one episode to the next. Or don't even understand simple concepts (like what soulless means, the power of angels/demons), that's when I just want to throw in the towel. If you can't do mytharc because you are too dumb to make things like a show bible, then don't even bother to begin with.

[Smad]

Sorry for the double post but I have a question. Was it ever answered in an interview or something what exactly Jack's powers are and how they work? Because I simply can't make heads or tails of this character's powers (among other things) by applying the logic from the lore of the show.

From what I understand Nephilims are so powerful because they possess both angel grace and human soul. That's the only logical explanation I can roll with. So if Jack loses one of those, he should be much less powerful. So when Jack lost his soul, why was he still so powerful? He doesn't even have his own grace anymore, he has Michael's right? So how can he still effect things globally (like the 'no lies' incident)?

Speaking of which, we have seen with Castiel what happens when you use grace that is not yours. It fades over time. Does this suddenly not also apply to Jack using Michael's grace?

Also why was The Empty gunning for Jack in Heaven? Jack's soul is what went to heaven, human souls are not the jurisdiction of The Empty. Jack's grace, the thing that would go to The Empty, was burned out. So either his grace wouldn't exist at all anymore or what's left of it would have already gone to the Empty when Jack died.

This all makes no sense to me...

Edited September 26, 2019 by Smad

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, Smad said:

From what I understand Nephilims are so powerful because they possess both angel grace and human soul. That's the only logical explanation I can roll with. So if Jack loses one of those, he should be much less powerful. So when Jack lost his soul, why was he still so powerful? He doesn't even have his own grace anymore, he has Michael's right? So how can he still effect things globally (like the 'no lies' incident)?

I think it had to do with whatever Lily Sunder did to him.  The reason he burned off his soul was because he kept tapping into that power (whatever it was). So, I think that power is what his power is.  And, he does have grace.  Cas said it would regenerate eventually, they just weren't sure how long it would take. So, maybe Lily's thing also helped his grace regenerate?

[Smad]

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Cas said it would regenerate eventually, they just weren't sure how long it would take. So, maybe Lily's thing also helped his grace regenerate?

Cas of all people should know that grace doesn't regenerate. His grace didn't, that's why he hounded Metatron to get his hands on the Cas stash that Metatron had hidden away. And it shouldn't matter what Lily does, as grace is made by God.

Quote

The reason he burned off his soul was because he kept tapping into that power (whatever it was). So, I think that power is what his power is.

But he has no soul so that extra power source is gone. If he doesn't have his soul then he doesn't have that power.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Smad

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Sorry for the double post but I have a question. Was it ever answered in an interview or something what exactly Jack's powers are and how they work? Because I simply can't make heads or tails of this character's powers (among other things) by applying the logic from the lore of the show.

From what I understand Nephilims are so powerful because they possess both angel grace and human soul. That's the only logical explanation I can roll with. So if Jack loses one of those, he should be much less powerful. So when Jack lost his soul, why was he still so powerful? He doesn't even have his own grace anymore, he has Michael's right? So how can he still effect things globally (like the 'no lies' incident)?

Speaking of which, we have seen with Castiel what happens when you use grace that is not yours. It fades over time. Does this suddenly not also apply to Jack using Michael's grace?

Also why was The Empty gunning for Jack in Heaven? Jack's soul is what went to heaven, human souls are not the jurisdiction of The Empty. Jack's grace, the thing that would go to The Empty, was burned out. So either his grace wouldn't exist at all anymore or what's left of it would have already gone to the Empty when Jack died.

This all makes no sense to me...

The whole thing doesn't make any sense to me either. I was going through my DVR, re-watching and deleting episodes. When I got to "Jack in the Box", and he was able to destroy the Ma'Lak box that was supposed to keep Michael in it without escape, I basically said, WTF?  Again, where is Jack getting this extra power? He has Michael's grace, but glowing yellow eyes as he had before, not blue. But we know he has no soul at this point, so how is he even more powerful than Michael? Unfortunately, the answer probably is no one has the faintest clue. Just seemed like he should still be more powerful than anything other than Chuck. I swear, these writers...

[Katy M]

31 minutes ago, Smad said:

Cas of all people should know that grace doesn't regenerate. His grace didn't, that's why he hounded Metatron to get his hands on the Cas stash that Metatron had hidden away. And it shouldn't matter what Lily does, as grace is made by God.

His grace was completely gone.  Lucifer left a little bit of Jack's.  Same as how Michael left a bit of Lucifer's and he was able to regenerate it by eating other angel's graces.

[Smad]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

His grace was completely gone.  Lucifer left a little bit of Jack's.  Same as how Michael left a bit of Lucifer's and he was able to regenerate it by eating other angel's graces.

We know that traces of grace get left behind when an angel leaves a vessel or the grace is removed. That's a point that has been made several times. So Cas had traces left in his vessel even when Metatron stole his. Hence if it's true that grace can regenerate (despite there being no evidence for it), then Cas had no reason to be so anxious to get back his grace from Metatron. All he had to do was wait for his grace to regenerate. But Cas never even made that point as far as I remember, hence his anxiousness to get HIS grace back from Metatron. And he never made it a point that he could simply swallow up other angels graces to restore what little was left in him.

We also know that not having your own grace means that whatever foreign grace you have will fade over time, see Cas. Which would mean that Jack, having Michael's grace AND no soul, should be getting less powerful over time.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

We know that traces of grace get left behind when an angel leaves a vessel or the grace is removed. That's a point that has been made several times. So Cas had traces left in his vessel even when Metatron stole his. Hence if it's true that grace can regenerate (despite there being no evidence for it), then Cas had no reason to be so anxious to get back his grace from Metatron

Except that we also know that it can take anywhere from a month to a century (per the conversation in Gods and Monsters), so yeah, that is reason to be anxious.

[Bobcatkitten]

Michael (when in the female vessel) said his grace would regenerate hundreds of years later. 

Also the biggest WTF ever is that half an arc-angel is somehow more powerful than a whole arc-angel. It literally makes no sense.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Except that we also know that it can take anywhere from a month to a century (per the conversation in Gods and Monsters), so yeah, that is reason to be anxious.

Well that's conveniently non-specific. And therefor stupid.

4 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Michael (when in the female vessel) said his grace would regenerate hundreds of years later. 

Which makes absolutely no sense to me. Grace is made by GOD. You lose it, it goes to The Empty to sleep. It's not self-regenerating because it's made by God...out of who knows what. The only one who should have the power to remake/regenerate the grace is God.

13 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Also the biggest WTF ever is that half an arc-angel is somehow more powerful than a whole arc-angel. It literally makes no sense.

Like I said, I understand if we are talking archangel grace+human soul as those are two powerful energies. However once that's broken, the being in question should be significantly de-powered. Jack losing his soul means he lost half his power yet he is still able to effect things globally. That's just plain unrealistic. He is also not in possession of his own grace so he should lose even more power over time as the grace he borrowed fades away.

They really have no idea what they are doing with Jack. Rules, lore and logic are apparently thrown out the window for him.

[NougatJack]

9 hours ago, Smad said:

Like I said, I understand if we are talking archangel grace+human soul as those are two powerful energies. However once that's broken, the being in question should be significantly de-powered. Jack losing his soul means he lost half his power yet he is still able to effect things globally. That's just plain unrealistic. He is also not in possession of his own grace so he should lose even more power over time as the grace he borrowed fades away.

They really have no idea what they are doing with Jack. Rules, lore and logic are apparently thrown out the window for him.

The only explanation I have is that Jack apparently didn´t use all of his soul, I think there is a little piece of his soul left which is enough to power up his grace.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, NougatJack said:

The only explanation I have is that Jack apparently didn´t use all of his soul, I think there is a little piece of his soul left which is enough to power up his grace.

Except that's not how it works per original Death's own words. And even if it did, thanks to retconning lore/canon, part of a soul is not his full soul. Tiny bit of a soul is not enough power. Just like borrowed grace is not the same thing.

[Cambion]

Plus, if Jack was using his soul power to use powers to kill Michael, he should have had no soul left and died when Michael did.  Because then he had neither grace or soul at that moment.  IIRC didn't Lily say if he use it all up he would go right away?

So, if he still had enough soul left to not die then, he is NOT soulless and  wouldn't be acting like he is.  (Which I totally don't think he's acting any different than he really ever has. But YMMV.) He wasn't soulless when he killed the snake.  And killing Mary wasn't a conscious act, he over reacted and killed her without thinking.  And the whole has no remorse thing about that seemed more like peer pressure  'Sam and Dean won't like me anymore, waaaaah'.

Of course, I could be misremembering and talking out of my A$$, but that means I'd have to watch those episodes again, and I can't even.....

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Cambion said:

Plus, if Jack was using his soul power to use powers to kill Michael, he should have had no soul left and died when Michael did.  Because then he had neither grace or soul at that moment.

You don't need a soul to live.  That's canon.  Sam, Jenna, weird Lizzie Borden guy, Donatello, weird babysitter girl.  All these people were running around without souls, perfectly healthy.  

[Cambion]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

You don't need a soul to live.  That's canon.  Sam, Jenna, weird Lizzie Borden guy, Donatello, weird babysitter girl.  All these people were running around without souls, perfectly healthy.  

But wasn't the spell Lily gave him using up the power of his soul to keep him alive because his grace was gone?  So, when both were gone he was dead.  That's why he died and they brought her in to help anyway, remember, Cas went and got Jack's soul in heaven to put it back in his body for the few seconds she needed to enact the spell and  bring him back to life.  That's why I don't get that he's still alive.  He was without both and died pretty quickly.  Cas held his soul in his body only a few seconds and then the spell using his soul power was what was keeping him alive, so without that, it was a dead body.

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, Cambion said:

So, when both were gone he was dead. 

Again, all those people that I mentioned above had no soul and never had any grace and were still walking around alive.  You do not need either to live on that show.  

[Smad]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Again, all those people that I mentioned above had no soul and never had any grace and were still walking around alive.  You do not need either to live on that show.  

Except you are applying the rules for pure breeds to a mixed race. Humans are one race, archangels/angels are another. They have set rules as to what happens when they lose their soul or grace. Jack is a singular being (aside from the other one from earlier Seasons) and there are literally no pre-set rules for him that we can apply. Neither do the writers know what he is, what he can do and what the rules are. They just write it dependent on the plot, hence Jack and his powers make little to no sense.

And to say that losing one or the other or both wouldn't kill/damage Jacks seems weird to me when we had to watch him cough up blood and die for example.

[ahrtee]

The simple answer is that Jack is a plot device in a cute (to some) body, not a character.  His actions, emotions and powers change episode to episode (sometimes scene by scene) depending on what the writers want (and what will wring the most angst) and with no relation to anything logical.  Try this:  come up with a simple scenario and try to figure out how Jack would react.  If you can come up with 3 or more opposing possibilities, there's something wrong with how he's written.  

[Lrdmordain]

Ok returning to my favorite thread because I just caught up on all the new Supernatural episodes and kind of got confused on some points.

1. What exactly happens to an angel / demon when they die? I thought they went to the empty and slept, like Cas and apparently Ruby, but God somehow brought Lillith back from a place where he was purported to have no powers or control over, and I feel like lillith isn't the first dead demon / angel we've seen come back, though that could just be my memory playing tricks on me.

2. How does Jo even know Ruby? Jo supposedly didn't come to earth till the fall of the angels, which was well after the apocalypse she was referencing in her flashback. Plus I'm fairly sure Ruby was dead by that point, though I could have my timeline messed up on that.

3. Why do they keep needing spells to get into hell? They literally know two different doors in, one between that devil's trap railroad layout and one that the reaper taxi driver showed Sam.

4. What does and does not count as Jack using his powers? Because a few episodes ago they said he couldn't use any of his powers, but in this episode he clearly does with the memory peek thing he did.

5. If god, at the very least full powered god, is omnipotent, why would he even need to "check in" on Sam and Dean? He'd already be aware of what they're doing / what their plan was just like he already was with their trap him in the mark plan. Plus in what universe would he ever been fooled by Alt. Sam and Dean? He has made multiple points of how special normal Sam and Dean are and the show has a history of characters recognizing each other not by sight but by mere presence.

6. If Amara went "off world" or "traveling" or just "away" when chuck came to her for help back near the start of the season, and he's currently destroying ALL the other worlds, doesn't that mean she'll have to come back to main reality sooner rather than later as there is no where else for her to go?

I honestly could keep going for a bunch more little nagging canon questions but really this are the ones that jump out at me. 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Lrdmordain

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

1. What exactly happens to an angel / demon when they die? I thought they went to the empty and slept, like Cas and apparently Ruby, but God somehow brought Lillith back from a place where he was purported to have no powers or control over, and I feel like lillith isn't the first dead demon / angel we've seen come back, though that could just be my memory playing tricks on me.

Yes, angels and demons go to sleep in the empty. The explanation for Lillith is canon-fail. Or, the Empty dude lying about who has what powers.

 

2 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

2. How does Jo even know Ruby? Jo supposedly didn't come to earth till the fall of the angels, which was well after the apocalypse she was referencing in her flashback. Plus I'm fairly sure Ruby was dead by that point, though I could have my timeline messed up on that.

The answer to that is definitely canon fail

 

2 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

3. Why do they keep needing spells to get into hell? They literally know two different doors in, one between that devil's trap railroad layout and one that the reaper taxi driver showed Sam.

They'd need the Colt to open the railroad one.  And the reaper one was through Purgatory. Kind of a roundabout way.  

 

2 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

4. What does and does not count as Jack using his powers? Because a few episodes ago they said he couldn't use any of his powers, but in this episode he clearly does with the memory peek thing he did.

They say he can't use his powers, but he does what he wants.

 

2 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

5. If god, at the very least full powered god, is omnipotent, why would he even need to "check in" on Sam and Dean? He'd already be aware of what they're doing / what their plan was just like he already was with their trap him in the mark plan. Plus in what universe would he ever been fooled by Alt. Sam and Dean? He has made multiple points of how special normal Sam and Dean are and the show has a history of characters recognizing each other not by sight but by mere presence.

Pure stupidity which is why they should have never made Chuck God. Or at the very least not brought him back as evil.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

46 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They'd need the Colt to open the railroad one.  And the reaper one was through Purgatory. Kind of a roundabout way.  

Wasn't there another one in a warehouse somewhere? The episode when Lucifer is transferred to the not-really-the-cage for the meet-cute with Sam?