"What?!?": In Which We Attempt to Address the WTFery of SPN Lore and Whatnot

[Binns]

Ugh, sorry guys. I just saw up thread that you recently discussed this but I'm mobile so didn't see it at first.

[catrox14]

The cynic in me says, dropped storyline, but one never knows I guess. Pretty polite of those Stynes to all hang out in one small town so Dean could wipe them all out on the same day. ;)

 

 

Ohhh maybe that new chick will be a Styne or connected to the Stynes

 

Being killed while carrying the Mark is what turned him into a demon, but then as an actual demon, his body was able to heal itself.  So when the Mark was removed, he would still be in the healed state from when he was a demon.  At least that's how I've explained it to myself.

Steins/Stynes...whichever, but I thought they were a large family with international connections?  Apparently, not so much.  It's too bad though, it could have been an interesting storyline.  

 

I think the question still remains...was Dean self-healing like controlling the healing or were his injuries just healed without his control? I don't think that was clear.

Edited April 11, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think that he was initiating the healing, I just think that as a demon, his wounds would automatically heal.  I think when he cut his palm while playing at the piano, he was just sort marveling at the fact that it would automatically heal.  

[AwesomO4000]

AHHH. So he's re-hymenated again as well. Lol!

I'm sort of bummed that he lost Castiel's handprint a while back. I loved that.

(Which...shouldn't Sam have a handprint?)

 

I saw somewhere a little cartoon addressing that very thing. In the cartoon, Dean was asking Sam about that, and Sam was saying that no, he hadn't seen a hand print and looked slightly confused. So once Dean left the room, Sam pulls down his shorts to look in the mirror and there's a handprint on his ass, and he says dammit! as Dean comes back in and laughs at him "I knew it!"

 

Heh. I might have to try to find that for you.

[SueB]

I think the Steins ARE international.  I suspect they don't know how or by who the Louisiana Steins were massacred.  Dean left no one alive to tell the tale and Munroe didn't strike me as the kind who would share.  In my head canon; when Munroe failed to show up at the annual international meeting of the evil Steins, they sent someone to investigate and found not only was there nothing but a burned down house but the Sheriff (who pulled a complete coverup to protect his own ass) had mysteriously retired to all parts no-where. 

 

I'm in the "Dean was most sincerely dead" camp.  It's why Dean told the Steins that if they killed him, he'd come back with the black eyes.  I think the Mark healed his body and twisted his soul at the same time.  Alternatively, since he was a Knight of Hell, the Mark revived him and twisted his soul. Then his Knight-class demonic powers healed his body. 

[catrox14]

This is like the Chicken and the Egg.

 

I feel like there should be more to Dean being a Knight of Hell. I mean it seems like there should some kind of acts a demon has to complete before getting the Knight of Hell designation. I feel a fic coming on....

Edited April 12, 2016 by catrox14

[Lrdmordain]

So how exactly does an angel losing it's grace work?

When Metatron took Castiel's grace Castiel was mortal but also dying and had to steal another angel's grace to survive.

When Metatron's grace was taken he became mortal but otherwise seems fine.

That female angel gave up her grace and didn't seem any worse for it, aside from the amnesia, which neither Cas nor Metatron seems to have experienced.

Is there a common thread I am missing?

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Lrdmordain said:

So how exactly does an angel losing it's grace work?

When Metatron took Castiel's grace Castiel was mortal but also dying and had to steal another angel's grace to survive.

When Metatron's grace was taken he became mortal but otherwise seems fine.

That female angel gave up her grace and didn't seem any worse for it, aside from the amnesia, which neither Cas nor Metatron seems to have experienced.

Is there a common thread I am missing?

I believe Castiel was dying because he stole another angel's grace and it was rotting inside him, so to speak. He was human for months before that and just fine.

ETA: I once had a little bit of a theory about grace back when Castiel was dying, here's a link to that post and the discussion:

Edited May 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Wow.  I feel like Metatron getting beamed into that bar.  I clicked the "red" above and found myself on page 27 of the Spoiler thread.  Wandered around til I found my way back here. 

Since he was centuries old in that meatsuit, I think at somepoint, the original vessel owner was dead.  So, Metatron, like Cas, wasn't sharing a vessel with a live human host anymore.  Versus Hannah, who was.  That was Carolyn, Hannah's vessel, who was a bit disoriented and went home. 

I think that Metatron and Cas are the exceptions.  I think if a living human host is in the vessel and you take out the grace, the person is either going to bleed to death or maybe get healed by an angel and go back to being their normal self.  The other two instances of removing grace, the vessel was promptly shanked.  So, not sure but I think that it's not normal for a vessel to be unoccupied (like Cas' and Metatron's).  And now we have canon confirmation that Chuck/God rebuilt Cas personally. 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "First Born" episode thread:

 

52 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Was it just vampires that were shown in Purgatory though?  I can't honestly remember.  The Leviathans were there also.  And I thought it was originally created to house them?  I thought we did see glimpses of other monsters in Purgatory.  Not sure about witches though.  But they never did answer what happens to them when they are 'killed' in Purgatory.  I guess they just cease to exist then.

I don't think the demons that are 'killed' go back to Hell.  Like @pixelcat said, we've never seen or heard of a dead demon getting out again.  I think that's the point (get it?  Haha!) of using the demon knife on them.  Maybe dead demons also go to Purgatory?

My theory is that they just keep coming back to get hunted and/or killed again - kinda like how tortured to "death" souls in hell become whole again the next "day" to get tortured again -  because someone sometime on the show said that purgatory was the place where monsters went to hunt each other for all eternity. But if monsters die in purgatory after killing each other, I would suspect that there would be really few monster souls left pretty quickly, and according to what happened to Castiel when he "ate" them, there were a whole lotta souls inside him. Also if the souls "died" that easily they wouldn't be around to use as power or whatever everyone wanted to access them for.

So my guess, they just pop back again somewhere else in purgatory to spend eternity hunting/getting hunted but still remain available as a "soul" to be used as power or whatever. I think this also because there are similarities between the souls in hell and the souls in purgatory, and the souls in hell don't "die" after being tortured to death. The similarities: both souls in hell and in purgatory (and in heaven, too) get a "body" (I call it a hell body or a purgatory body) that they only have in heaven, hell, or purgatory. For example, when Dean took Benny out of purgatory, Benny had to leave his purgatory body behind and be... whatever that light was in Dean's arm. And when Castiel took Dean out of hell, he took out Dean's glowy soul and returned him to his buried body even though we know Dean had a "body" in hell (we saw it at the end of "No Rest For the Wicked".) Also both puragatory souls and hell souls can be used as power, so I suspect if that's the case, they would be similarly powerful... and so more hearty than just a "one and done" kill. I'm pretty sure that since so many characters, including Death, have said how powerful souls are, that they would be more difficult to "kill" than just being hunted by each other.

So my conclusion, the monster souls don't "die" for very long; they come back to keep killing each other for all eternity... Maybe there's a certain spot they all get resurrected to and they have to "start" all over again.

And for me, I would watch a spinoff in purgatory where we see those characters you all were talking about from the show - Lenore, Gordon, some of the leviathans (I'd want Chet there somehow, Dick Roman, etc.), we could have Benny again maybe. Maybe Bobby and Rufus' souls somehow end up in purgatory for a while (Rufus breaks Bobby out of heaven's jail and they escape to purgatory. Maybe Ash could help him and be there also - why not?) and they meet up with some of the "good" monsters (like Lenore and Benny) on their journey out of purgatory. Maybe one of their group gets killed and they have to find the "start" point to get them back. Then they could get out later to become grumpy old hunters again after a while in purgatory, having adventures. Yeah, I'd definitely watch that.

[pixelcat]

I agree completely AwesomeO.  I think when monsters die in purgatory, they go back to their "spawn point", wherever they were first dropped in.  I also think where they started has a lot to do with where they died.  Why else would Dean call Benny and have him drive all that way just to get killed (instead of saving time and meeting him someplace in the middle)?  He needed Benny to appear near where Sam started.

I find it sad that even those monsters that were turned into monsters against their will end up there, with no chance of redemption.  I mean, how cruel is it to think that Madison ended up there, after she chose to die rather than kill any more people.

But to expound on the soul theory, I think that's why demons and angels aren't in purgatory.  Angels have no souls, and demons ARE souls but don't HAVE souls.  I think that rules out both from purgatory, so when they die they are either taken to The Empty, or just cease to exist.  Since we've never seen or heard of demons (or angels for that matter) returning from death, either works.  You would think that Purgatory would've wanted to spit Castiel out just as bad as Dean, since neither of them belonged there.

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And for me, I would watch a spinoff in purgatory where we see those characters you all were talking about from the show - Lenore, Gordon, some of the leviathans (I'd want Chet there somehow, Dick Roman, etc.), we could have Benny again maybe. Maybe Bobby and Rufus' souls somehow end up in purgatory for a while (Rufus breaks Bobby out of heaven's jail and they escape to purgatory. Maybe Ash could help him and be there also - why not?) and they meet up with some of the "good" monsters (like Lenore and Benny) on their journey out of purgatory. Maybe one of their group gets killed and they have to find the "start" point to get them back. Then they could get out later to become grumpy old hunters again after a while in purgatory, having adventures. Yeah, I'd definitely watch that.

Count me in on this!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, pixelcat said:

and demons ARE souls but don't HAVE souls.

Demons do have their own souls still.  Their souls are stripped of its humanity from the time in Hell being subjected to all manner of mental, physical and emotional torture and in turn torturing others. That's why the demon blood cure from s8 started to work on Crowley, and the demons in Clip Show and eventually Demon!Dean. In the case of demon!Dean and Cain, they kept their meatsuits vs other demons who find other meatsuits if their own has been destroyed. 

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, pixelcat said:

Why else would Dean call Benny and have him drive all that way just to get killed (instead of saving time and meeting him someplace in the middle)?  He needed Benny to appear near where Sam started.

Oh, good point. It wouldn't have helped much to have Benny just end up anyplace in purgatory, because they had a time crunch, so this definitely makes sense.

[sarthaz]

I get why everyone only drives at night.  Saves money.  But why are there always fresh rain droplets on the windows?  I'm watching Paper Moon right now (ugh), and even Teen Shewolf's car is glazed with fresh rainwater.  WTF

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I get why everyone only drives at night.  Saves money.  But why are there always fresh rain droplets on the windows?  I'm watching Paper Moon right now (ugh), and even Teen Shewolf's car is glazed with fresh rainwater.  WTF

From what I understand, they do that so it matches with what they end up shooting outside...since it rains a lot in Vancouver.

[sarthaz]

44 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

From what I understand, they do that so it matches with what they end up shooting outside...since it rains a lot in Vancouver.

I guess that makes sense, but I never think of those coda scenes in terms of continuity from what may have happened in the episode.  It's just isolated on-the-road driving 99% of the time.  I mean, between the landscapes and poorly disguised Canadian accents, it's hard to forget it's Vancouver 24/7, so I guess I'd like to see it NOT be raining all the time.  They spend a lot of time in the plains and Rocky Mountain areas, and as this map shows (because I'm bored), it doesn't rain that much out there. :)

 

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I guess that makes sense, but I never think of those coda scenes in terms of continuity from what may have happened in the episode.  It's just isolated on-the-road driving 99% of the time.  I mean, between the landscapes and poorly disguised Canadian accents, it's hard to forget it's Vancouver 24/7, so I guess I'd like to see it NOT be raining all the time.  They spend a lot of time in the plains and Rocky Mountain areas, and as this map shows (because I'm bored), it doesn't rain that much out there. :)

Oh, I know, but sometimes they end up getting out of the car and it's pouring buckets, but the scene they just did on stage of them driving to whereever wasn't...at least they're trying...right? ;)

[pixelcat]

2 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I get why everyone only drives at night.  Saves money.  But why are there always fresh rain droplets on the windows?  I'm watching Paper Moon right now (ugh), and even Teen Shewolf's car is glazed with fresh rainwater.  WTF

I like to think it's because they want to be all dramatical and whatnot!

[catrox14]

It's funny for me, but of all the things I nitpick and grouse about in this show, locations is not that big of a thing to me anymore. I find it part and parcel of the charm of SPN to see how close they are or are not, to mimicking a location in B.C. for the US.  I kind of get a kick out of it now.

[ahrtee]

(Sorry...just came across this and couldn't resist...)

Edited November 10, 2016 by ahrtee

[trxr4kids]

I just rewatched The End the other day and it made me think about the Croatoan Virus. It's a demon virus, shouldn't standard demon defenses (holy water, salt) work, for example, holy saline water given intravenously if given immediately after exposure?

[sarthaz]

5 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I just rewatched The End the other day and it made me think about the Croatoan Virus. It's a demon virus, shouldn't standard demon defenses (holy water, salt) work, for example, holy saline water given intravenously if given immediately after exposure?

Seems logical.  Although those are just short-term defenses.  I guess if you hooked an infected to intravenous holy saline water, you could keep them in constant pain and agony?

[sarthaz]

Are new angels ever created?

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, sarthaz said:

Are new angels ever created?

I don't think so.

If the show continues to follow the Dogma... uh, dogma, then humans can't transubstantiate.  (See Houses of the Holy -- the priest explicitly states that man cannot become angels.)  

Now, TPTB could change that canon at any time, if they wished.  But as things stand, I think Chuck would have to create new angels.

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Are new angels ever created?

 

7 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I don't think so.

If the show continues to follow the Dogma... uh, dogma, then humans can't transubstantiate.  (See Houses of the Holy -- the priest explicitly states that man cannot become angels.)  

Now, TPTB could change that canon at any time, if they wished.  But as things stand, I think Chuck would have to create new angels.

Canon never explicitly gives an answer one way or the other, but my gut would be that while it is possible it hasn't occured in eons. As @Demented Daisy points out it has been stated that man can not become angels so it would be impossible for them to be created in a similar way to demons. Furthermore, my understanding is that Angels refer to each other as 'brother' and 'sister' because they were all directly made by God. It isn't like demons where Lilith and the Princes were the only ones (that we know of) made personally by Lucifer. He is quite literally the 'father' to all of them. I would say it is possible for Guck to one day create new angels on the show, but since he took himself out of the game long ago I would say that's pretty unlikely.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Wayward Son

[sarthaz]

Thanks.  That's what I thought too.  Seems like they should do more with the fact that angels are finite and demons have infinite supply.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the Spoilers thread:

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I just saw someone speculating that Mary could end up being a Lucifer vessel later in the season due to how shady they're making her. 

It got me thinking; what if she was a perfect back up vessel? We know from season 5 that the Winchester bloodline is the Michael bloodline, which was why he was able to possess John and Adam. 

What if the Campbell's were the Lucifer bloodline. It would explain why the cupids pushed John and Mary together so they'd produce a kid for each angel and fulfil the whole "as it is in heaven, so shall it be on earth" criteria.

The speculation that if the Campbells were "Lucifer" bloodline might make sense if Mary were to become Lucifer's vessel (please, show - Just. Say. No.) or even be considered a suitable vessel.  

I would like more information about how the whole 'bloodlines' thing works - where it originated, etc - if they are going to go there or keep going there.  

[catrox14]

Didn't Cas say in s4 that their numbers were not unlimited?

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Didn't Cas say in s4 that their numbers were not unlimited?

I had forgotten about that until you mentioned it! He said this to Dean at the end of Are You There God It's Me Dean Winchester :) . 

I'm amazed at how much detail you can remember off the top of your head :) 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I had forgotten about that until you mentioned it! He said this to Dean at the end of Are You There God It's Me Dean Winchester :) . 

I'm amazed at how much detail you can remember off the top of your head :) 

Heh. I remember far too much dialogue from that scene. It s burned into to my brain because of incredible chemistry between Jensen and Misha. They were amazing. The whisper arguing. Dean getting in cas' face about the angels not preventing seals from being  broken "bangup  work" dripping with sarcasm and saying angels were dicks. Cas telling Dean to have more respect or he can throw him back into Hell . Dean being angry that hunters died and Cas saying his fellow angel soldiers have died. And saying "Our numbers are not unlimited" and went on to explain why angels were back on earth after 2000 years to prevent Lucifer from rising.

So great.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Heh. I remember far too much dialogue from that scene. It s burned into to my brain because of incredible chemistry between Jensen and Misha. They were amazing. The whisper arguing. Dean getting in cas' face about the angels not preventing seals from being  broken "bangup  work" dripping with sarcasm and saying angels were dicks. Cas telling Dean to have more respect or he can throw him back into Hell . Dean being angry that hunters died and Cas saying his fellow angel soldiers have died. And saying "Our numbers are not unlimited" and went on to explain why angels were back on earth after 2000 years to prevent Lucifer from rising.

So great.

It was funny because I'd completely forgotten about it until your post! Then as soon as I read it I could suddenly hear Misha saying the words and pictured the scene hehe. 

I agree that the chemistry between Misha and Jensen was amazing in that scene! It was pretty obvious from the start that Supernatural had found something special when they cast Misha! 

It makes me want to watch season 4 again! Although I'm going to hold out because I plan a full rewatch at some point this year! 

[FlickChick]

Let's not forget the in-your-personal-space: "You should show me some respect. I pulled you out of Hell, and I can throw you back in" from Cas. It's true that their chemistry was fantastic - still is when the writers allow them to be together. ;)

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Let's not forget the in-your-personal-space: "You should show me some respect. I pulled you out of Hell, and I can throw you back in" from Cas. It's true that their chemistry was fantastic - still is when the writers allow them to be together. ;)

Yeah I mentioned that in my brief summation. Cas was terrifying in that moment.  But what I liked was that Dean gave as good as he got and he was a little in over his head with angels. So good. 

[FlickChick]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah I mentioned that in my brief summation. Cas was terrifying in that moment.  But what I liked was that Dean gave as good as he got and he was a little in over his head with angels. So good. 

Sorry, catrox, my old eyes missed that. :( And you're right about Dean, he never appears afraid of any being - even when it's just bravado.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, FlickChick said:

Sorry, catrox, my old eyes missed that. :( And you're right about Dean, he never appears afraid of any being - even when it's just bravado.

Oh no worries! I didn't mean it an defensive way. Sorry!

[Wayward Son]

17 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Sorry, catrox, my old eyes missed that. :( And you're right about Dean, he never appears afraid of any being - even when it's just bravado.

With the exception of Alastair who clearly terrified him. However, considering what we know he put Dean through I don't think anyone could blame Dean for having an adverse reaction to his presence. 

In fact it was Dean's fear of him that made him a more compelling bad guy (for me) than Lilith. I mean if Dean Winchester is afraid of something then you know you're dealing with a badass. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

With the exception of Alastair who clearly terrified him. However, considering what we know he put Dean through I don't think anyone could blame Dean for having an adverse reaction to his presence. 

In fact it was Dean's fear of him that made him a more compelling bad guy (for me) than Lilith. I mean if Dean Winchester is afraid of something then you know you're dealing with a badass. 

 

Boy isn't that the truth. I think Alastair terrified Dean because of whatever Alastair did to find the horrifying point that compelled Dean to eventually torture others, which IMO is what Dean is most terrified of ever seeing again. I don't think even demon!Dean was as ruthless as I have imagined Hell!Dean was. :(.

Edited February 22, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

57 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

True.  But using my handy-dandy sentence diagramming skills I picked up in jr. high (no, I'm not kidding.  I was weirdly good at it.)  When I look at this sentence grammatically: "You're my true vessel but not my only one", "one" is the subject of the second phrase.  To what does that "one" refer?  To the subject of the first part of the sentence, which at its most basic is "vessel".  "True" is a modifier, just like "my".  The complete subject of the first part of the sentence is "true vessel".   So grammatically, Michael is saying, "You're my true vessel, but not my only true vessel."   

I love this.

Anyway, my interpretation of the scene is that Michael was saying that the Winchesters are his true vessels. So Dean is a true vessel and so is John. Etc. Like @RulerofallIsurvey said, "you're my true vessel, but not my only true vessel."

ETA

Sorry, put this in the wrong thread. I think the original post was in the bitterness thread. But I guess the vessel discussion belongs here as much as anywhere, so I'm gonna leave it. Apologies for the laziness!

Edited February 22, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Didn't Cas say in s4 that their numbers were not unlimited?

Yes, he did say that, but apparently there either was a shit ton of angels to begin with or else there must be an angel factory somewhere.

I mean:

• A bunch of them died getting Dean out of Hell and fighting various bullshit battles trying to save seals in S4.
• Then there was a civil war throughout S6 where a bunch of angels were said to have been killed.
• Cass killed a bunch of them when he was tried to be God in S7.
• Then a bunch more died getting Cass out of Purgatory and a bunch more died when not-so-marvy Marv booted the angels out of Heaven in S8.
• S9 brought us more angelic civil wars and angels dying.
• S10 was more angel-on-angel violence.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, he did say that, but apparently there either was a shit ton of angels to begin with or else there must be an angel factory somewhere.

I mean:

• A bunch of them died getting Dean out of Hell and fighting various bullshit battles trying to save seals in S4.
• Then there was a civil war throughout S6 where a bunch of angels were said to have been killed.
• Cass killed a bunch of them when he was tried to be God in S7.
• Then a bunch more died getting Cass out of Purgatory and a bunch more died when not-so-marvy Marv booted the angels out of Heaven in S8.
• S9 brought us more angelic civil wars and angels dying.
• S10 was more angel-on-angel violence.

I didn't think Cas meant unlimited as in like 100.  I figure it's like at least a small town's worth like 5 or 10K

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

With the exception of Alastair who clearly terrified him. However, considering what we know he put Dean through I don't think anyone could blame Dean for having an adverse reaction to his presence. 

In fact it was Dean's fear of him that made him a more compelling bad guy (for me) than Lilith. I mean if Dean Winchester is afraid of something then you know you're dealing with a badass. 

And let's not forget his first reaction upon meeting Death in Two Minutes To Midnight. He looked like he was trying to keep from peeing himself when he sat opposite him in that pizza parlor.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, he did say that, but apparently there either was a shit ton of angels to begin with or else there must be an angel factory somewhere.

I'm going to have to go with shit ton for the win!  :)

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Regarding Dean" episode thread:

12 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Basically, I'm wondering if the soul holds who we are or if it's just a power source with a dollop of conscience on top? 

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 Given soulless Sam I don't think souls determine personality. I think they determine morality. So to me swapping the souls would just be like possession.sam would be the meatsuit for the witches soul and it would make Sam do certain things and make choices but not alter his personality. I think.

I guess I see it differently. There were similar discussions on this in Buffyverse as well with similar types of questions. And with my discussion here, I am interpreting your "conscience," Ditty, to be referring to morality conscience rather than consciousness conscience, so if you were referring to that latter one

For me the soul is more than a power source and a conscience, because otherwise there would be no memory of what happened to the souls in heaven or hell. There wouldn't be any need to have Memorex heaven, because there would just be little power sources floating around up there. And Memorex heaven is based on the person's memories which would have to be in the soul, because it's the soul in heaven. Bobby was still Bobby in heaven - surley as ever - even though that was Bobby's soul and not his body.

So as for what's in the body with no soul, that's a good question, because soulless Sam did have some of Sam's personality. I'm going to guess that it was the "baser instinct" parts of the personality. Eat, survive, have sex, be curious, adapt, gather information and experiences. Soulless Sam obviously had Sam's memories, but he didn't seem to really "connect" with them - like they were just a bunch of pictures and data. He didn't have any affection for Dean per se. Dean was just familiar - like a movie he'd seen.

For me Sam was different enough from soulless Sam for it to be more than just a dollop of conscience. Someone can have affection for someone and still have few morals or no conscience, but soulless Sam was more like a psychopath than someone who was immoral, because he didn't even connect with or seem to care about other people. Compare that to vampires, who while fairly immoral, still seem to have love for one another and even a sense of family.

Demons are twisted souls, but I think even they retain some personality. Meg was Meg in the different meatsuits she took and kept her memories from the various experiences in those meatsuits. Same with Ruby who still liked french fries whether she was Ruby 1 or Ruby 2. And Crowley was still Crowley whether he was briefly inhabiting Sam or that poor woman he had an orgy with.

So bottom line, for me, I think that in this verse, the soul is more than just a power source and morality, otherwise they wouldn't keep their personalities in heaven or in hell, nor would a soul returning to their body have memories of that time or be changed by them. And demons wouldn't benefit from inhabiting meatsuits, because they'd just be twisting the person they were wearing, but would lose their own consciousness, memories, etc.

But that's just my take on it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Brought over from the Spoilers thread (no spoilers, I don't think)

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

We still don't really know why angels need consent but what if Lucifer just loses his crap and possesses her without consent? 

I wonder why angels need consent but demons don't?  Does it have something to do with the fact that angels don't have souls, but demons do (twisted as they are?)  So a being with a soul could possess another soul without consent but a being with no soul can't?  (Does that fit with the Leviathan arc?  Did Leviathans have souls?)  I can't remember, so I hope someone will help me out here: how were the Princes of Hell made?  Were they once human also?  Or were they other, lower ranked angels?  I guess they would have had to be one or the other (they weren't Leviathans, because I think those were already locked up in Purgatory at the time) since neither Lucifer nor any of the archangels had the power to create new life from nothing like God did.  My point in asking about the PoH is because I'm guessing none of them need/needed permission to possess someone.  Didn't Azazel possess the reaper and John?  (I can't remember about John).  Did the reaper give her consent?  

So if angels need consent to possess (which we've seen that they do): is it a hard and fast rule?  (Like written in stone on the Angel Tablet)  Or is it just more of a pact/agreement to which they are bound by honor?  

[SueB]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Brought over from the Spoilers thread (no spoilers, I don't think)

I wonder why angels need consent but demons don't?  Does it have something to do with the fact that angels don't have souls, but demons do (twisted as they are?)  So a being with a soul could possess another soul without consent but a being with no soul can't?  (Does that fit with the Leviathan arc?  Did Leviathans have souls?)  I can't remember, so I hope someone will help me out here: how were the Princes of Hell made?  Were they once human also?  Or were they other, lower ranked angels?  I guess they would have had to be one or the other (they weren't Leviathans, because I think those were already locked up in Purgatory at the time) since neither Lucifer nor any of the archangels had the power to create new life from nothing like God did.  My point in asking about the PoH is because I'm guessing none of them need/needed permission to possess someone.  Didn't Azazel possess the reaper and John?  (I can't remember about John).  Did the reaper give her consent?  

So if angels need consent to possess (which we've seen that they do): is it a hard and fast rule?  (Like written in stone on the Angel Tablet)  Or is it just more of a pact/agreement to which they are bound by honor?  

Here's the short answer (with a big helping of "IMO" and "ISH" ... see charts and graphs mode):
- Angels need consent because God made them, and in his universe "them's the rules" (Zachariah, EP5.1). If either Michael or Lucifer could have gotten around it by sheer will, we wouldn't have had the S4 & S5. It's a fundamental conceit to the SPN universe. Angels taking "vessels" is NOT in the source-material (see definition below) from which SPN generally draw (short version: Judeo-Christian beliefs). Also, they inhabit vessels temporarily, they do not "possess". 
- Demons have always been able to posses and never needed permission. This has been present since S1 and is consistent with source-material.
- Azazel was a demon and possessed people (Chronological: random monk, doctor w/ Liddy Walsh, Samuel, janitor, John, janitor).  
- All demons, regardless of eye-color, have demonstrated the ability to possess: Lillith, Alistar, PoH's, Crowley, cross-roads, randoms)
- Young John gave permission for Michael to inhabit his vessel "to save his wife", back in 1978 in "The Song Remains the Sam"
- Azazel DID possess Tessa (a reaper, a form of Angel). But Tessa was in the spirit world in that moment as well (as was Dean).  There's no good lore to back up WHY that worked.  I'll chalk that up to plotonium - Kripke needed it to work and he hadn't worked out the details yet. (see source material). 
- Leviathans have souls and were in Purgatory before Cas let them out and after Dean stabbed Dick) UPDATE:  This is wrong.  Leviathans do NOT have souls.  See detailed response to @ahrtee below.

- Your supposition that it's the soul that may be the key differentiator could very well be the unwritten guideline they are following.

Answer to your question: Angels do not possess, they inhabit. They must have permission.  This a "written in their nature of their species" rule, not a choice. 

Trigger Warning, you are now entering Charts & Graphs Mode. 

Source Material: Supernatural picks from the salad bar of Judeo-Christian teachings.  They pick what they want, make some of their own creation, and ignore much of the rest.  They particularly like to use proper nouns (names, objects, etc...).  My speculation is that it add a certain "credence" to the unique SPN mythology. They also pick from various pagan religions but they taken the American God's approach -- the number of worshipers/sacrifices is directly related to your power.
When Kripke started off with demons in S1 it was definitely the Hollywood Classic "Catholic." "Catholic" is in quotes because they borrowed the flashy stuff (rosaries, holy water, crosses, Latin) for defeating of evil and expelling demons but didn't delve much further than that. They started getting more sophisticated in S2 & S3 but it really took a next-step in S4 with the introduction of angels.  It's important to note that this was at the same time that Andrew Dabb joined the series.  I don't think he was driving storyline, but based on interviews, it's pretty clear they had definitely come to rely on him as their "go-to" guy for mythology no later than S8, and likely much earlier.  The concept of Angels in S4 is a mix of Jewish and Christian.  That they have no soul and no free will (which has subsequently been de-bunked in the show mythology), is closer to Jewish teachings than Christian. Catholic catechism declares Angels to have BOTH souls and free will.

IN DEPTH: Most Christian religions generally follow Catholic beliefs unless they specifically do not.  That's a weird way of saying, Christianity's heritage is Catholic but as early as 1056, groups broke away with differences in beliefs.  So, today, there are parts that are VERY different than Catholic. But these are usually explicitly stated.  Conversely, many Christians today look at the Bible and read every word as the literal meaning. So if it's not explicitly stated in the Bible, it doesn't exist. Not ALL Christians are like this, and definitely not the Catholics (S1 source material -ish). Catholics believe it is the inspired word of God, many older institutionalized religions believe in Sola Scripture (by the scripture alone) but also see it as inspired, not literal.    

Back to SPN: In S4 we start to see more Old Testament influence.  Some of it is Jewish and some of it is the Christian documentation of the times before Christ. Only the Torah (aka, the Pentatuch, the first five books of the Old Testament) is exactly the same. After that, Jewish writings and beliefs get much more complicated (UNDERSTATEMENT). It is FROM the first five books of the Old Testament that MUCH of the Supernatural mythology gets it's angel lore. The specific classes of angels, several names (of both angels and demons).  

Evidence of the Judeo-Christian sourcing: See S8 "Mythology" special on the DVD.  It's Andrew Dabb, not surprisingly, who does most of the talking.  Furthermore, at the 2015 Comic-Con (pre S11) and later, Dabb and Singer had the 'party line' that they were going farther back that the written word, farther back than the Bible for their mythology.  They were now literally making it up.  They had ONE concept: The Darkness.  Sue Speculation: the embodiment of the Darkness as a "sister" is pure SPN mythology.  The concept of Light/Dark in balance is in MULTIPLE religions, not just Judeo-Christian. In fact, it's a much bigger concept in many Eastern religions. I'm pretty sure Chuck even refers to Yin/Yang (which is Taoism).   

The Nature of the Soul: This has some fuzziness in the Judeo-Christian sources but has become central to Supernatural mythology.  Many (but not all) Jews believe in the afterlife.  The Jewish "soul" has a more material nature to it. It's is closer to "breath of life".  It is that which animates the body.  In Christianity, the soul is much more metaphysical (i.e. beyond the physical) in nature.  It represents God's "likeness" in each human.  In some elements of Judaism, animals have souls. In Christianity, they are generally considered not to have souls but that's not 100% accepted (let's just say, it's COMPLICATED).  But the idea that monsters have souls (Leviathan, shape-shifters, those born of Eve) is more Jewish than Christian.  Even the Vampires and Werewolves, in SPN lore, are said to have come from Eve. But we know these are mutated humans (who would have had souls anyway).   

Supernatural Soul "Facts":
- It's the source of power for MANY things.
- Chuck/God created them and it made him nauseous (perhaps a nod to the "part of God in humans" concept).
- Humans & monsters have souls.
- Angels do not have souls, they have grace.  
- Grace-power and Soul-power are two different kinds of energy (think DC vs AC electricity). DC is more potent at the source, AC travels farther. You plug an AC item into a DC outlet, it gets fried.  The reverse is often true for DC into AC - at a minimum, it won't work.
- Soul AND Grace power is additive.  "Soul Bomb" and "Combined Smiting" come to mind as examples.
- Demon's power comes from twisted human souls.  God did not make the demons, Lucifer did.  They are, by definition, less powerful than Angels but have more power than random 'Joe human'. Sue speculation: I think of it as not only twisted, but "boiled down", concentrated energy, that has potency.   

Free Will: Despite what Anna said, Angels DO have Free Will.  If they didn't, they couldn't make choices and misbehave. Lucifer is Exhibit A of Free Will in an Angel.  Free Will, however, is a CENTRAL concept for the Supernatural mythology.  Chuck emphasized it.  It goes right along with just about EVERY good and bad thing that has happened on the show.  It's the choices we make that make us who we are.  Part of what makes demons so evil is that they can physically wrest control over a human and the human's free will is suppressed.  That's not a God/Chuck creation.  That's his creation (Lucifer) coming up with a clever way of using one of God's creations (the human soul, now twisted and nearly unrecognizable) to overpower an untainted human soul (the possessed person).  Possession is the antithesis of Free Will.  It takes all agency from the individual.  They have no choice in being possessed and their body is used to do terrible things.  Thus, the possessed soul is not punished for being possessed (unless they invited in the demon... which STUPID) and can blip up to heaven when freed of the demon.  

End of Charts and Graphs... sorry I had to add it late... I had a premature "save". 
 

Edited April 20, 2017 by SueB

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

a being with a soul could possess another soul without consent but a being with no soul can't?  (Does that fit with the Leviathan arc?  Did Leviathans have souls?)

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Leviathans have souls and were in Purgatory before Cas let them out and after Dean stabbed Dick)

I'm not sure it was ever stated that Leviathans have souls.  According to SPN lore, God created them first, but they were "poisonous" and so he locked them away long before he created humans.  Maybe he realized the problem was his creations needed souls to help them balance between good and evil, and so added them to his later works?  

But here's the interesting/confusing part (to me, at least!)  The only physical Leviathans we saw before they took human form was the black goo that Cas released into the water supply.   I was assuming that was their souls--like demon black smoke.  But once they were back in Purgatory, they were back to the goo, which shapeshifted into humans to attack Cas and Dean.  I would think (JMO) that the creatures in Purgatory would revert to their own forms like the vampires and other monsters, since it's a VR situation there--physical bodies (aside from occasional visitors, like the Winchesters, Cas and stray reapers, anyway) aren't really there.   So what do Leviathans actually look like?  And if God locked them away whole, maybe the black goo/shapeshifting ooze is what they really are, and not souls after all?

Now IIRC, the black goo water went into at least two humans--Edgar and the little girl--and took them over.  I don't know if it is considered possession, since  I don't think there was anything of the original person left at all.   We don't know what happened to the rest of the ooze, but from what we saw after that, the Leviathans didn't actually possess anyone--they merely copied them and ate the originals.  Maybe that was just the easier/more efficient way of doing things--a body and a meal at the same time?  

I don't know what that means in terms of souls and possession, but I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts.  

[catrox14]

Quote

Answer to your question: Angels do not possess, they inhabit. They must have permission.  This a "written in their nature of their species" rule, not a choice. 

 

IMO, there has never been any clear explanation regardless of past angel behavior with not possessing a human without consent, as to why they don't other than RULES. IMO, it's never been explained that there is a physical, mental, emotional, cosmic reason that makes it literally IMPOSSIBLE for angels to possess without consent.  It's just never been done.  It's never been attempted but that doesn't mean it cannot be done.  Maybe it's just something angels were taught to not do. Maybe an angel DID possess a human against their will and something dreadful happened so Ghuck implemented capital punishment against any angel that did it. So they stopped doing it. 

 

Quote

ince Vincente: I'm not especially interested in his opinion. Dear old dad, he finally apologized for abandoning me. And what's the very next thing he does? [Voice breaks] He ditches me. [Laughs] And you, too, by the way. And rides off into the sunset with Auntie Amara. He needed my help, and he'd say anything to get it. His words, your words, they mean nothing. Don't you get it? This is all meaningless. Heaven, Hell, this world. If it ever meant anything, that moment is past. Nothing down here but a bunch of hopeless distraction addicts, so filled with emptiness, so desperate to fill up the void… they don't mind being served another stale rerun of a rerun of a rerun. You know what my plan is? I don't have one. I'm just gonna keep on smashing Daddy's already broken toys and make you watch.

IMO, the difference between now and in s4/s5  is that Lucifer has become nihilistic given the above speech to the boys in the rock star episode. IMO he took that nihilism a step further by raping Kelly and impregnating her knowing he was doing probably the worst thing he could ever do to go against Heaven and Ghuck's rules:  creating his own nephilim.

He wants that spawn born for whatever reasons: to control and destroy humanity; to piss off Ghuck; to prove that he'll be a better father than Ghuck (which is  one of the  literal worst reasons to bring spawn into the world IMO, cause it's not about the child, it's proving a point via that child); having the most powerful weapon in the the universe, (non-Jesse the AntiChrist division); etc.

That's compounded by being under Crowley's thumb, trapped in a vessel that is not his OTV. Given those givens I can see Lucifer going a step further and possessing someone without their permission, because IMO he's becoming unhinged and desperate.  

Edited April 20, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not sure it was ever stated that Leviathans have souls.  According to SPN lore, God created them first, but they were "poisonous" and so he locked them away long before he created humans.  Maybe he realized the problem was his creations needed souls to help them balance between good and evil, and so added them to his later works?  

But here's the interesting/confusing part (to me, at least!)  The only physical Leviathans we saw before they took human form was the black goo that Cas released into the water supply.   I was assuming that was their souls--like demon black smoke.  But once they were back in Purgatory, they were back to the goo, which shapeshifted into humans to attack Cas and Dean.  I would think (JMO) that the creatures in Purgatory would revert to their own forms like the vampires and other monsters, since it's a VR situation there--physical bodies (aside from occasional visitors, like the Winchesters, Cas and stray reapers, anyway) aren't really there.   So what do Leviathans actually look like?  And if God locked them away whole, maybe the black goo/shapeshifting ooze is what they really are, and not souls after all?

Now IIRC, the black goo water went into at least two humans--Edgar and the little girl--and took them over.  I don't know if it is considered possession, since  I don't think there was anything of the original person left at all.   We don't know what happened to the rest of the ooze, but from what we saw after that, the Leviathans didn't actually possess anyone--they merely copied them and ate the originals.  Maybe that was just the easier/more efficient way of doing things--a body and a meal at the same time?  

I don't know what that means in terms of souls and possession, but I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts.  

Sorry, I was still typing my manifesto (above... see "Charts and Graphs mode").  

I had declared Leviathans had souls because they were in Purgatory and got sucked in. But YOU ARE RIGHT.  Leviathan's do not have souls.  

I've put an update in the write-up I did for the correction. I re-watched the pertinent section (I love my iTunes SPN library) of 7.1, here's the exact wording:

Quote

DEATH: 
You think you can because you think you're simply under the weight of all those souls, yes? But that's not the worst problem. There are things much older than souls in Purgatory, and you gulped those in, too.
CASTIEL: 
Irrelevant. I control them.
DEATH: 
For the moment.
DEAN: 
Wait -- uh, what older things?
DEATH: 
Long before God created Angel and man, he made the first beasts -- the Leviathans.
DEAN: 
Leviathans?
DEATH: 
I personally found them entertaining, but he was concerned they'd chomp the entire petri dish, so he locked them away. Why do you think he created Purgatory? To keep those clever, poisonous things out. Now Castiel has swallowed them. He's the one thin membrane between the old ones and your home.
CASTIEL: 
Enough.

So... to answer the question about souls, possession and Leviathans:
1. Since you are right, and Leviathans do NOT have souls, there is no such thing as possession for or FROM Leviathans.
2. Leviathans are uber shape-shifters who eat people. Like a shape-shifter, they can touch a person and become that person.  Unlike a shape-shifter, they can't be killed by silver to the heart.  
3. In fact the ONLY metaphysical thing about Leviathans appears to be in both their durability and whatever weird power waves Dick Roman was emanating when he got stabbed in the neck.  
4. Leviathans pre-date Eve (recall the inappropriate comment about Eve made by Edgar to the Alpha Vamp).

Sue's speculation: Since the Leviathans were an abject failure, God created the whole "soul" theory and angel "grace" power as part of the "rules" of his creation.  Leviathans can kill angels.  So they've got SOME juice, but it's not AC OR DC.  I would make the analogy that the Leviathan are like the Golom of the ancient world.  They are made of primordial stuff and are unaffected by the power spectrum of souls and grace.  Now, unlike the Golom, these creatures are more clever, animated, and hungry.  But they still are immune to the powers of Angels.  They are NOT, however, immune to spells.  A witch was able to temporarily hold Chet.  Which brings me around to magic -- which is likely from primordial stuff (aka nature) and might channel the metaphysical (like channeling soul power) but draws power from more than just souls.  Angels are susceptible (Attack Dog Spelled Cas) to magic as well.

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, there has never been any clear explanation regardless of past angel behavior with not possessing a human without consent, as to why they don't other than RULES. IMO, it's never been explained that there is a physical, mental, emotional, cosmic reason that makes it literally IMPOSSIBLE for angels to possess without consent.  It's just never been done.  It's never been attempted but that doesn't mean it cannot be done.  Maybe it's just something angels were taught to not do.

 

IMO, the difference between now and in s4/s5  is that Lucifer has become nihilistic given the above speech to the boys in the rock star episode. IMO he took that nihilism a step further by raping Kelly and impregnating her knowing he was doing probably the worst thing he could ever do to go against Heaven and Ghuck's rules:  creating his own nephilim.

He wants that spawn born for whatever reasons: to control and destroy humanity; to piss off Ghuck; to prove that he'll be a better father than Ghuck (which is  one of the  literal worst reasons to bring spawn into the world IMO, cause it's not about the child, it's proving a point via that child); having the most powerful weapon in the the universe, (non-Jesse the AntiChrist division); etc.

That's compounded by being under Crowley's thumb, trapped in a vessel that is not his OTV. Given those givens I can see Lucifer going a step further and possessing someone without their permission, because IMO he's becoming unhinged and desperate.  

Lucifer hated God. He would be the first one to disobey any "rule" and he'd be clever enough to figure a way around it.  Just like God could stop (with a thought) Lucifer from killing the boys, because it's HIS universe, he's made it metaphysically impossible for Angels to possess.   Again his "rules" are not just guidelines (or commandments*), they are like physics.  Gods "rules" are more like "laws".  

*Those commandments clearly don't have any metaphysical restrictions behind them, people violate them all the time. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

Lucifer hated God. He would be the first one to disobey any "rule" and he'd be clever enough to figure a way around it.  Just like God could stop (with a thought) Lucifer from killing the boys, because it's HIS universe, he's made it metaphysically impossible for Angels to possess.   Again his "rules" are not just guidelines, they are like physics.  They are more like "laws".  

I amended my comment whilst you were replying. I added the following

 

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe an angel DID possess a human against their will and something dreadful happened so Ghuck implemented capital punishment against any angel that did it. So they stopped doing it. 

Let's say Ghuck was implementing capital punishment i.e. death sentence for angels that possessed humans without their consent, IMO Lucifer would not do it. Lucifer is nothing if not a survivor. He wants to live.  Maybe Lucifer  made it possible for demons to possess without consent when he created the first demon, Lilith, so that he wouldn't be killed himself by Ghuck. I mean he is pretty much a selfish dickhead who uses everyone anyway.  Why would he risk his own death when he wanted to destroy humanity bit by bit via possession? 

Edited April 20, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

ETA:

IMO, if Ghuck was 100% against angels possessing humans, he would have made it 100% impossible which means even consent shouldn't work, if it was violating some metaphysical laws.

So if consent is the only thing that prevents it then why did Ghuck leave that option?  Consent is pretty malleable given that it doesn't really even require fully informed consent and it can be given under duress. Did he do it to test angels to make sure they didn't do it?