S11.E10: The Devil In The Details

[AwesomO4000]

Also, I hope Lucifer got out all of his tongue in time before he possessed Cas because it was so deep in Sam`s ass, I`m not sure some pieces aren`t stuck forever.

 

Whereas I took little Lucifer said at face value. Lucifer likes Lucifer. Sam is a means to an end. For all of the supposed "talking up" of Sam Lucifer did, he did just as much bashing. He was trying to get Sam to think that somehow letting himself be a meatsuit again was some sort of noble thing that required guts that Sam no longer had, and wouldn't Sam love to prove himself "worthy" and let Lucifer in? It was all a ploy so Lucifer could get out. As soon as Sam said "no," and Lucifer could see that Sam meant it, there was no more "praise." He commenced with the beating the crap out of Sam - not at full force of course, so it could last, because that's how Lucifer rolls.

 

In my opinion, this isn't about Lucifer liking Sam; this is about Lucifer wanting Sam to like him as a validation of himself (Lucifer), and as soon as Sam doesn't fall for his pretty words, he beats on Sam with an attitude of "well, now look what you made me do." Lucifer is not a "Samfan," and his praise is not genuine. To me, it looks more like a somewhat textbook abusive relationship than Lucifer the Sam fanboy.

 

Even if I believed in such a character growth, you can`t magnaminously declare "I ALWAS have" if it`s a recent development.

 

Lucifer was taunting Sam about how sure was he that Dean would come to save him. Since that was the topic of discussion at the time when Sam had brought up how Dean would be coming to save him*, my interpretation was that what Sam meant here was that he would always bet on Dean to come save him. In my opinion, that's not a recent development, and I would believe that Sam is telling the truth in that he would always believe that Dean would come to save him... they've had disagreements about Dean's propensity to always save Sam before, but now they are on the same page in that (i.e. that it is worth it). So, in that, I don't fault Sam for saying "always." I think in fact Sam would be extremely surprised if Dean didn't come to save him.

 

But I'll have to rewatch to see if I still have that impression/interpretation of what Sam said on second viewing.

 

* (From the look on Sam's face, he was likely imagining a very wrathful Dean gunning for vengeance and/or with a kickass plan.)

[Aeryn13]

At this point, I think Lucifer has been unfortunately turned into rather a version of Becky. He was like the Hellucination version of him which I thought sucked but at least it wasn`t the real him. But nope, he is a lame jokester now, no gravitas, no command, nothing really. I guess it should be scary that he is free? He is a court jester, I don`t want him around. He provides the same shtick Crowley or Metatron do on most occassions. 

 

I wouldn`t rewatch this or even pieces of it if someone paid me money to. Best thing I can do is probably erasing it from my mind, along with actually episodes 2-9 before  

 

The only thing I can say about Dean in this episode is: he was there. No wonder he is barely or not at all mentioned in any episode reactions. There was not even one scene that stood out. I had been looking forward to Dean meeting Billie at least beforehand but that was, as all he did in this ep, pointless. Jensen gets the same payment no matter how much he works on any given episode but for me the ratio of enjoyment or at least non-hate decreases dramatically if Dean just has nothing to do. It`s like being back in the second half of Season 8 or first half of Season 9. Boring. 

[catrox14]

Not buying it. The characters are allowed to grow. They HAVE to be. If anyone went back to when I was in my mid-20's and held me to stay consistent in my opinions, I'd be horrified. Frankly, I can't remember all of them but I'm sure I'm a lot wiser now than I was then. So, for example, Sam having faith in Dean .... That's a well-earned character growth. S5 showed the strong faith (as AwesomeO said). Plus, if there is one this Sam could count on, it's Dean coming to get him. That's been Dean's raison d'etre since the age of 4.

 

 

 

I'm the one that used retcon. You can quote me I don't mind. Maybe retcon is the wrong word. Unintentional retcon? I dunno.  My opposition to the use of the word "Always" in no way implies I don't want characters to grow.  I'm not nitpicking here I swear.

 

"ALWAYS"  means..in all cases, in all times. Not just the present but also the past. Not occasionally. But EVER. It implies a belief within Sam about Dean that has just not been shown to be the case ALWAYS and IMO undermines the idea of Sam's character growth.

 

It implies that Sam never doubted Dean, that he always believed Dean would be there which is factually untrue.  I mean we just had an episode this season devoted entirely to the premise of Sam needing an imaginary friend as a child because Dean wasn't there for him.  In this episode alone they spent time showing us Sam doing everything independently of Dean, he went to Hell without Dean because Dean was taken away by Amara. We were reminded that Sam jumped into the pit and whilst Dean was there, he couldn't stop Sam from going to Hell.

 

They reminded us that Sam didn't look for Dean when he was in Purgatory, but had the VILLAIN call out Sam for that behavior which coming from Lucifer implies that maybe the behavior was not so bad after all, and they have Sam defend his choice as "We made a promise" to not look for each other. My takeaway is that if Lucifer says you're wrong then you are probably not wrong. YOu know?

 

There was so much specificity in the dialogue in this episode surrounding Sam's independence and strength of will against Lucifer that showed us character growth...why drop the ball on that pivotal moment?  Why pick that word? To show support for Dean in front of Lucifer and Sam character growth? Bad choice if that was the intention IMO. A big AWWW and HELL YEAH moment that failed for me because I was like 'wait, what'?? "ALWAYS??".

 

 

It would have been so simple to have the dialogue be

Lucifer: "Dean? You're betting on Dean Winchester"?

Sam: "Yup"

End of story

 

But since they seemed to need Sam to justify to Lucifer, of all people why he would bet on Dean, they could have gone with  Sam: "I sure do because my brother keeps his promises".

 

That communicates Sam's belief in Dean in THAT moment. It reminds the audience that Dean has saved Sam when HE COULD and has killed villains he's promised to kill when he was able.  It leaves their whole sordid ugly but wonderful history and their perspective on that history intact and shows that Sam has grown and he understands his brother now more than ever.  "Always" misstates that growth and underplays the moments when Dean couldn't/wasn't/shouldn't be there for Sam.

 

 

If it was just hyperbole from Sam to express his belief in Dean at that moment, fine. It's gonna stick in my craw either way.

Edited January 21, 2016 by catrox14

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Lucifer Is Absolutely The Worst Ex-Boyfriend You Ever Had
The Darkness Looks like a dream date next to this guy.

[AwesomO4000]

catrox, you have some good points, but in addition to my first impressions from above, I'm also gonna give Sam a little bit of a break here, because... Lucifer, big trauma, and maybe Sam needed to have a little bravado here and not leave Lucifer any nit to pick. (Which he likely knows Lucifer is good at.)...So Sam goes with either the very narrow interpretation, or he exaggerates a bit so that he can use the "always" and not be wishy-washy in any way in front of Lucifer... who just took him on a trip down memory lane that included some traumatic stuff and some stuff that Sam's kind of defensive about already - and is somewhat close to the subject he's now questioning - and then told Sam what a wimpy failure he was in comparison to how he could be.

 

So I'll give Sam a little break for the potential misstep/exaggeration (I still need a rewatch) due to Lucifer and likely impending pain Sam knew was coming very soon. And it's Lucifer... why should Sam want to leave open anything that might get him to question Dean? Or Sam's motivation when it comes to Dean which Lucifer had previously questioned and got a burr in under Sam's hide? So maybe an exaggeration to seem definitely confident - without getting too cocky* - is a good option. Leave no doubt. If needed, I say lie like a damn rug, Sam. Don't you tell that asshole anything but what he doesn't want to hear and make him believe it.

 

* Sam doesn't want to steal Dean's shtick after all. That's something only Dean can pull off. Sam would just look silly trying it.

 

(*Considers that I might've given the writers more credit than they deserved, but ehn... I'll give them the  benefit of the doubt until rewatch at least*).

 

Edited to add:

 

Sam: "I sure do because my brother keeps his promises".

 

Unfortunately I think Lucifer would have had a field day with that one... with either something he could twist that Dean supposedly didn't keep his promise on, or the potentially worse "Oh, unlike you, huh, Sammy." In fact I would've been disappointed in Lucifer if he hadn't come up with that one - I can even imagine his facial expression and tone... likely followed by an emotionally dinged Sam, because yeah, ouch. Better to not open that can of worms, in my opinion.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I thought I acknowledged that Sam was doing this to show Lucifer his belief in Dean?  Maybe I deleted it in my edits. 

 

It doesn't change the fact that textually, on screen now, we have Sam speaking an absolute about Dean that didn't exist or that Sam just couldn't ever say or acknowledge until this big moment. Sadly, the writers, as usual of late, get lazy or think they are being EPIC and throw out absolutes as though there is no LONG ASS history with this show that can directly refute an absolute claim.  

 

I kind of already feel bad for Sam because the moment he DOESN'T believe in Dean again, which inevitably will happen because the show just can't resist it and where's the drama if Sam and Dean aren't distrusting each other (RME), it undermines what he just told Lucifer.  

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" 

Edited January 21, 2016 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

Y'know, in the heat of the moment, the deep underlying belief in his big brother is going to come through. He's not going to pause there and go off into a deep silence, debating whether he should say "always" or not, because he's had his doubts.

Besides, there's always the very human dynamic of "I can have my doubts about my big brother, but if anyone outside the family disses him, all bets are off!" Which comes into play quite often. (I have experience with this, in re my big brothers.)

[AwesomO4000]

I thought I acknowledged that Sam was doing this to show Lucifer his belief in Dean?  Maybe I deleted it in my edits.

 

You probably did and I missed it or forgot. My main point was that I wouldn't even care if Sam outright lied, now that I think about it, because Lucifer is an asshole, and whatever gets Sam through at that point without caving and saying "Yes" would've been understandable to me.

 

It doesn't change the fact that textually, on screen now, we have Sam speaking an absolute about Dean that didn't exist or that Sam just couldn't ever say or acknowledge until this big moment. Sadly, the writers, as usual of late, get lazy or think they are being EPIC and throw out absolutes as though there is no LONG ASS history with this show that can directly refute an absolute claim. 

I kind of already feel bad for Sam because the moment he DOESN'T believe in Dean again, which inevitably will happen because the show just can't resist it and where's the drama if Sam and Dean aren't distrusting each other (RME), it undermines what he just told Lucifer. 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that one... which is where my "I might be giving the writers too much credit" came in. ; )

 

Though I was pretty proud of Sam for believing for sure that Dean would come ... And accepting that now rather than being angry at him, or annoyed at him or something for that tendency, and just accepting that yup, this is how my brother is, and I'm proud of him for it. Yay Sam!

 

So I'm going to try to focus on that positive part and maybe fanwank the rest just a little.

[Aeryn13]

 

Besides, there's always the very human dynamic of "I can have my doubts about my big brother, but if anyone outside the family disses him, all bets are off!"

 

Usually when someone else disses Dean, Sam either laughs amused, nods along or says nothing so the above would also be an aberration for him.

 

For me "I`l always bet on my brother" was in the same vein as "you will never hear me say you are anything but good" in the Season 9 Finale. How are you gonna make that happen, Sam? Go back in time and erase all the moments when Dean already has heard it?

 

Lucifer made a point of sharing Sam`s memories so the embellished statement would lose a lot of weight already with him. He wouldn`t and shouldn`t buy it.

 

Oh, and a little gem that probably got overlooked. When Lucifer calls Sam out on not even looking and Sam quickly defends himself with the "agreement", Lucifer says "and if he never came back, you would have been fine but he did and you weren`t". In response Sam looks like he agrees.

 

Ahahaha. Does Dabb realize what he wrote there? Because it says the part that bothers Sam about the situation is that Dean did come to life. And if he had stayed nicely "dead", even only in Sam`s mind, it would have been smooth sailing.

 

Even I who hate their relationship these days don`t think that`s completely true but the dialogue sure says otherwise.   

 

And of course, once again, nearly everyone acted like logic and reason had no meaning for them. Lucifer flat-out says Amara is equal in power to God so his claims about being able to stop her are nonsensical. That would mean he would have to be more powerful than God. If he were, he could have strolled out of the cage God created at any time.   

Edited January 21, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Omegamom]

And of course, once again, nearly everyone acted like logic and reason had no meaning for them. Lucifer flat-out says Amara is equal in power to God so his claims about being able to stop her are nonsensical. That would mean he would have to be more powerful than God. If he were, he could have strolled out of the cage God created at any time.

Well, Lucifer is going to say anything to get out of the Cage. And Cas is stuck in a morass of self-doubt, angel PTSD, and feeling like he's only a tool to Sam and Dean. Of course, he's going to fall for the lie. He's a sucker for people who are manipulative and lying, because he's so damned straightforward and naive himself. "If I do what you say, I can help save the world? Say no more! Where do I sign?"

[Aeryn13]

 

And Cas is stuck in a morass of self-doubt, angel PTSD, and feeling like he's only a tool to Sam and Dean. Of course, he's going to fall for the lie.

 

I know it is supposed to be all mushy and sympathetic but it is actually a pretty damning characterization. Of course I can get how not being considered major league would rankle, I truly do, but that is basically a vanity problem. Dean has been forever getting told that he is just a sidenote, if even that, and while he is full of self-loathing, he has never jumped headfirst into a bad choice just to be the Chosen One. That is what I want him to be but not the character himself.

[catrox14]

Y'know, in the heat of the moment, the deep underlying belief in his big brother is going to come through. He's not going to pause there and go off into a deep silence, debating whether he should say "always" or not, because he's had his doubts.

Besides, there's always the very human dynamic of "I can have my doubts about my big brother, but if anyone outside the family disses him, all bets are off!" Which comes into play quite often. (I have experience with this, in re my big brothers.)

 

 

That wasn't my point at all. I think it's poor writing and doesn't comport with the shows history. It's like when they shoved those horrible words in Sam's mouth in the Purge about Dean, that Dean won't sacrifice himself and that he did more bad than good.  He would have NEVER said those things IMO, but yet there we have it. He did. They didn't take it back and I don't think the "I lied" suffices. 

 

In this case, maybe Sam would have said this maybe he wouldn't. That doesn't change what IMO is a poor writing choice.   Maybe I would feel better about this if I thought Sam was consistent at all about Dean. 

 

It's like what Aeryn13 pointed out .  Sam saying "I would never say you were anything but good"...well no, that's flatly not true as a posted above because Sam did say exactly the opposite.

 

They haven't made Sam's grievances and choices organic to who I think I kind of understand Sam to be in the course of the show. And I can't decide if this is Carver's attempt to right the problem in s8 but then he kind of made it worse IMO.

 

As a writer, the words you put into a character's mouth IMO need to make sense for the character and the overall story. I don't think this did that. 

 

I'm actually really surprised this is a Dabb episode because it has the Buck-Lemming stink with Rowena in that fucking witch collar thing and squirrelly continuity with that "always" line and Rowena's backstory shift.

 

I'm really more flummoxed by this episode upon rewatch.

Edited January 21, 2016 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

Dean's got self-loathing out the wazoo. But he's not naive and trusting, he's almost automatically wary and definitely not naive. Cas has had eons of "being a soldier", following orders; he's only the third angel in all of Creation to exercise free will and doubt the Big Plan, in SPN's universe.

[smree]

Overall I really liked this episode. Lots of action, some humour and all the major players involved. I had 2 issues though, while I like the idea of Casifer, Misha's portrayal didn't quite work for me. I hope he settles into it. Also while I really like Mark Sheppard and Crowley, I think it was Crowley's time to die and not Rowena's. IMO they have to be brave this season and as we know a Sam or Dean death will never stick it's either Crowley or Castiel's time to die. I also have a funny feeling Rowena's death won't stick, purely because they made the point she's the only one who can open the cage.

[SueB]

Why the hell did they waste Jensen`s time with this piece of crap? He didn`t need to shoot the 2 or 3 days this pointless non-part probably took. Why not give him the week off? And if this is the mytharc to be, give him all the weeks off.

Cas becoming Casifer was to be expected. And apparently his reason is wounded pride and wanting to be a hero. Groan. That didn`t endear Sam to me and it doesn`t work with Cas either.

Also, I hope Lucifer got out all of his tongue in time before he possessed Cas because it was so deep in Sam`s ass, I`m not sure some pieces aren`t stuck forever. This Season has been very, VERY heavy on the Sam-shilling but this episode took even that to the next level.

The one thing I could identify with was Dean puking. With you there, man.

Even if I believed in such a character growth, you can`t magnaminously declare "I ALWAS have" if it`s a recent development. Always `doesn`t mean "whenever I`m not currently thinking he is weak, cowardly, selfish, clingy, sloppy etc". If you only have faith in someone ever third week or so, don`t throw words like "always" around. That was laughable. And I will still laugh at it when the next "you`re kinda weak, admit it" speech comes from Sam to Dean.

Dean was fundamental to the entire plot of this episode from what I saw:

- Dean drove the plot of finding out if the Big Bad had been killed and triggered the Cas/Amara meeting.

- Dean drove the 'save Sam' move and 'the get Luci back to the cage' by contacting Crowley, bringing the witch controlling device, and locking it on Rowena's neck.

- Dean then drove the plot that put the four of them into a cage match. It was Dean who rushed out to buy time for Rowena to complete the spell and save Sam from worse damage (or death).

- It was Dean being chocked that drove Cas to body tackle Lucifer and put him within Luci's grasp.

I enjoyed Dean in every scene.

I think Cas was motivated by 'I'm expendable' not 'I'm trying to be a hero'. I thought that character point was pretty blatant. And it's been a long time coming. He's been listless for a while and somewhat directionless. Plus, although it's not true, he personally sees Sam and Dean as bigger heroes than him. I think he also feels guilt for the Darkness and hopes that Luci takes her out and Sam and Dean can take out Luci.

Edited January 21, 2016 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

 

 

Dean was fundamental to the entire plot of this episode from what I saw:

- Dean drove the plot of finding out if the Big Bad had been killed and triggered the Cas/Amara meeting.

- Dean drove the 'save Sam' move and get Luci back to the cage by contacting Crowley, bringing the witch controlling device, and locking it on Rowena's neck.

- Dean then drove the plot that put the four of them into a cage match. It was Dean who rushed out to buy time for Rowena to complete the spell and save Sam from worse damage (or death).

- It was Dean being chocked that drive Cas to body tackle Lucifer and out him within Luci's grasp.

 

He was basically just like a glorified set-builder, though. Like constructing a new background, painting it and then leaving it for the actors to come on to do their actual scene. The majority of the ep was spent on Sam/Lucifer, up next is Cas` newest identity crisis and after that Rowena and Crowley. That`s what people seem to take away from this episode. Whereas Dean wasn`t allowed a real presence. Which automatically makes me bored with what`s going on.

 

This was a mytharc ep and he just played fifth fiddle. And this year, I can`t even get my fill from standalones because it`s the same way. I really hope things turn around in a major way in this second half but I doubt it.

[Demented Daisy]

Dean was fundamental to the entire plot of this episode from what I saw:

- Dean drove the plot of finding out if the Big Bad had been killed and triggered the Cas/Amara meeting.

- Dean drove the 'save Sam' move and get Luci back to the cage by contacting Crowley, bringing the witch controlling device, and locking it on Rowena's neck.

- Dean then drove the plot that put the four of them into a cage match. It was Dean who rushed out to buy time for Rowena to complete the spell and save Sam from worse damage (or death).

- It was Dean being chocked that drive Cas to body tackle Lucifer and out him within Luci's grasp.

I enjoyed Dean in every scene.

 

(Bolding mine.)  Dean, once again, rushed to save Sam without thinking of the consequences.  Crowley told him not to, but he did.  Had Sam died, Lucifer would still be in the cage.  

 

They're never going to learn, are they?  They keep saving each other when the world is on the line.  At least Sam said no this time.

[catrox14]

I didn't think Cas was feeling so expendable this season at all. I mean the guy has been chillin at that bunker watching Netflix and he's never been permitted to stay at the bunker THAT long. So he knows he's loved by Dean and Cas and his family. 

 

What I will buy is that Rowena's spell fucked him a lot more than the show bothered to show us. I think Hannah's death bothered him but again no exploration of that for Cas at all. Instead we get one  episode of him having PTSD and beating the shit out of Metatron but not killing him and at the end of that episode was supposedly a bigger scene between Dean and Cas that was cut. That's rumor but it might be true and might have informed why Cas is feeling this way.

 

As always the show starts with decent plot lines and then just drops them left and right and then is like OH SHIT and  picks it back for an inorganic conclusion and it's frustrating as hell.

[Aeryn13]

 

(Bolding mine.)  Dean, once again, rushed to save Sam without thinking of the consequences.  Crowley told him not to, but he did.  Had Sam died, Lucifer would still be in the cage.

 

And that`s the other thing. The character didn`t really get anything to do himself but they really laid the groundwork to BLAME everything on him.

 

Cas meeting Amara and the cute little angel and getting his feelings hurt? Check. Dean facilitated that.

Getting Cas into the cage to say yes? Check. Dean facilitated that, too.

 

So, Sam gets the credit for the BDH stuff, Cas gets the sympathy vote and Dean gets - at most - the blame. But he wasn`t allowed to do jackshit beyond setting the scene for others and their issues.

 

Heck, it was never even acknowledged or brought up that SAM might have screwed up last episode with his hastily following Rowena`s manipulations around. And if it had, it would have probably bounced back to Dean not answering the phone. 

 

I know some people love "big brother Dean" but I try my very, very best to ignore that side of him as best as I can. And when he is reduced to it? That`s actually hard.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

I was just thinking about it and I'm confused about Castiel saying yes to Lucifer.

 

Cas was there when Lucifer led the revolt against Heaven.  He knows what Lucifer is like, maybe better than the Winchesters.  He's seen everything that Lucifer has done for how many millennia?  Why, for Chuck's sake, would he trust Lucifer at all?  Why would he believe Lucifer?  He knows that Lucifer is the consummate liar and manipulator.

 

Oh, right.  Like the Winchesters, he never learn his lessons.  So much lazy storytelling.

[catrox14]

I was just thinking about it and I'm confused about Castiel saying yes to Lucifer.

 

Cas was there when Lucifer led the revolt against Heaven.  He knows what Lucifer is like, maybe better than the Winchesters.  He's seen everything that Lucifer has done for how many millennia?  Why, for Chuck's sake, would he trust Lucifer at all?  Why would he believe Lucifer?  He knows that Lucifer is the consummate liar and manipulator.

 

Oh, right.  Like the Winchesters, he never learn his lessons.  So much lazy storytelling.

 

This is what I don't get. 

 

My brain keeps coming back to....something is rotten in Denmark. 

 

So much has not made any sense to me this season. The idea that Sam wouldn't consider Lucifer but assumes it's God when Lucifer is the only angel that's fucked with his mind.

 

Cas can't be THAT stupid so I wonder if Amara did something to Cas when she seared that message on to his chest.  Right before that she was telling him he was old and wasted and essentially useless whilst caressing his face.  We've seen that she can put humans in a blissful state if she wants to right before she eats their soul. If she can do that why couldn't she do the reverse, meaning impart depression or anxiety or even a desire to commit suicide. Perhaps when she was touching Cas' face and telling him what a loser he is that it compelled him to make a rash decision because he just wasn't thinking straight?

 

Maybe she actively wants Lucifer out of the cage because she's pretty hubrisy right now. She screamed at the heavens and killed humans to get God's attention. Maybe she messed with Cas so that he WOULD say yes to Lucifer to get Gods attention even further.

 

Also, she told Dean after she kissed that he was seeing his future, which I think was largely assumed to be becoming one with her physically, but maybe she sent Dean a vision through that kiss, but he doesn't remember or just doesn't believe it's real. Can't handle it being real? 

 

Dean thought the message was a promise, so is that promise related to how he's connected to her or just that she will come to help Dean later like she said she would in 11.01. Or could she have put some of herself into Cas through the searing process? 

Edited January 21, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

All good questions, catrox.

[mertensia]

I thought the episode was very good.

I didn't mind Sam's always comment because that is the way people speak. When I bitch that a co-worker is always fucking late I don't qualify it with "well, except for November 10th and December 23rd" because truthfully he is almost always late but has come in a few times on time. But always sounds better and is the human thing to say so...

Rowena sure should have seen her death coming. Always answer no to questions like that!

[Omegamom]

Yeah, well, Rowena is vain. And prideful. So the question would appeal to that side of her.

On the other hand, she is shrewd and manipulative and a schemer. So that question should shout "Danger!" at her.

Guess the vanity won out.

Now, since she's Rowena, and evil, surely she's bound to end up in Hell now that she's dead?

Edited January 21, 2016 by Omegamom

[catrox14]

I thought the episode was very good.

I didn't mind Sam's always comment because that is the way people speak. When I bitch that a co-worker is always fucking late I don't qualify it with "well, except for November 10th and December 23rd" because truthfully he is almost always late but has come in a few times on time. But always sounds better and is the human thing to say so...

Rowena sure should have seen her death coming. Always answer no to questions like that!

 

This an 11 year history of these guys life as brothers and life and death and survival.  I suspect the boys remember when they were there and not there for each other. Not quite the same thing as co-workers tardiness.

Yeah, well, Rowena is vain. And prideful. So the question would appeal to that side of her.

On the other hand, she is shrewd and manipulative and a schemer. So that question should shout "Danger!" at her.

Guess the vanity won out.

Now, since she's Rowena, and evil, surely she's bound to end up in Hell now that she's dead?

 

 

They might have a bigger problem with Rowena because she might just come back as a demon. 

[mertensia]

And you have missed the point. Let me try again: Sam is going to say always because a) it's human nature to say so; b) you really think he's going to diss Dean in front of Lucifer?; c) this is the way I see it. You don't have to- that's fine- but please don't correct my views.

[Bessie]

This an 11 year history of these guys life as brothers and life and death and survival.  I suspect the boys remember when they were there and not there for each other.

I suspect you're correct. I don't expect the boys to be honest about this with outsiders. Particularly, Lucifer or other demons/bad guys. I know you've explained this already, but I'm still not understanding why what Sam said is so worrisome.

[catrox14]

And you have missed the point. Let me try again: Sam is going to say always because a) it's human nature to say so; b) you really think he's going to diss Dean in front of Lucifer?; c) this is the way I see it. You don't have to- that's fine- but please don't correct my views.

 

I didn't miss your point about Sam. I didn't find your analogy apt, that's all.  I didn't realize my differing opinion is a "correcting of view". That was not my intention.

 

I'm surprised that your takeaway from my comments is that I was suggesting that Sam saying it a different way amounts to a dissing of Dean? I never said nor implied that. I explained how I thought it could be handled better and still end up with Sam supporting Dean and not lose the history. 

[catrox14]

I suspect you're correct. I don't expect the boys to be honest about this with outsiders. Particularly, Lucifer or other demons/bad guys. I know you've explained this already, but I'm still not understanding why what Sam said is so worrisome.

 

I don't think it's "worrisome" as much as I think it actively ignores the facts to an extreme for fast character growth if that was the intention. I don't think it was though. I think it was just intended as a feelgood moment for Sam and Dean "United" against Lucifer. 

 

Unintended consequences born of shorthand storytelling maybe more than retcon? 

 

Lucifer already knows Sam's opinions about Dean right? He lived in his head for years apparently and even here, he accessed his memories. 

 

To me, if Lucifer wanted to really get into Sam's head to make him doubt Dean's ability to save him, IMO what would have worked better (in addition to what I explained before) is having Lucifer say something like 'Sam, think about all those times Dean wasn't there for you. Why would think it's different now?" That's a logical manipulation tactic. Sam could refute that with something like "Yeah, well things change. Dean will come through, like he has before".  It's an organic response whereas I think 'always' is not organic and kind of reframes their relationship more than I think was necessarily intended.

 

Just my opinion.

[MysteryGuest]

Just finished watching the episode tonight.  I'm fairly new to the Supernatural world, and saw all but the past season and a half by streaming on Netflix.  I just can't bring myself to watch with commercials, so my niece and I always watch the next night on Amazon.  It's well worth the $1.99 IMO.  

 

I'm glad Sam said no, and quite definitively.  That was good to see.  I don't really have a problem with him saying he's always believed in Dean.  I'm sure he felt that way in the moment.  

 

The Castiel/Lucifer plot seems a bit contrived, but it should allow Misha to get more screen time in the 2nd half of the season.  He's been pretty absent so far this year.  I'm hoping that he overplayed the character a bit in this episode just so there would be no mistaking the fact that he was no longer just Cas.  If that continues, it will get annoying.

 

As for Rowena, I'm not really heart broken.  She's annoyed me far more than I enjoyed her, so for me, it's one less character to water down the Sam/Dean story.

[catrox14]

 

he Castiel/Lucifer plot seems a bit contrived, but it should allow Misha to get more screen time in the 2nd half of the season.  He's been pretty absent so far this year.  I'm hoping that he overplayed the character a bit in this episode just so there would be no mistaking the fact that he was no longer just Cas.  If that continues, it will get annoying.

 

I can't decide if I think Misha was too over the top or not. Because when I think about Hallucifer and occasionally regular Lucifer he was kind of OTT.  He did the whole "GOOD MORNING VIETNAM" screaming at Sam and was always snarky anyway.

 

I wonder if it's a different take on Lucifer because Misha doesn't want to go the way Jared did with Lucifer!Sam and doesn't want to do a complete mimicry of Pellegrino's Lucifer. I think it could be head!canon'd that Lucifer!Cas might feel more free to be an annoying asshole to the extreme now that's he thinks he's gonna have the rule of the roost?  It's also possible that the director may have asked Misha to go bigger, like sometimes they do with Jensen.

 

I thought it was interesting that Misha told a story at Jaxcon this past weekend that he kind of got yelled at by people on set to just do the scene because he was questioning whether they could really do what they were doing.  I would LOVE to know if it was about this episode or what.  

[MysteryGuest]

That's true, Catrox, Lucifer was never subtle, so just because he's now hanging out in Cas, that probably won't change.  I'm going to assume he'll be on his best behavior when interacting with Sam and Dean.  If not, it simply won't be believable that they wouldn't recognize him immediately.  

 

I guess it will be interesting to see exactly what his game plan is.  Is going after Amara really on his to do list, or is he just out for himself?

[SueB]

I'm actually really surprised this is a Dabb episode because it has the Buck-Lemming stink with Rowena in that fucking witch collar thing and squirrelly continuity with that "always" line and Rowena's backstory shift.

 

 

I Googled witchcatcher and found this:

 

 

 

This seems like "classic Dabb" to me.  I could totally see him researching something to hamper Rowena, find this device, and put it in the script.  He seems to be fond of the medieval antiquities.  I honestly think THAT (historically pseudo-accurate) was more the driver than misogyny.  Now the original makers of the device??  Total misogynists.  

Edited January 22, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

I Googled witchcatcher and found this:

 

 

 

This seems like "classic Dabb" to me.  I could totally see him researching something to hamper Rowena, find this device, and put it in the script.  He seems to be fond of the medieval antiquities.  I honestly think THAT (historically pseudo-accurate) was more the driver than misogyny.  Now the original makers of the device??  Total misogynists.  

 

That's too bad. He dropped in my eyes over this. Oh well.

[SueB]

Rewatch thoughts/feedback:
 
 

At this point, I think Lucifer has been unfortunately turned into rather a version of Becky. He was like the Hellucination version of him which I thought sucked but at least it wasn`t the real him. But nope, he is a lame jokester now, no gravitas, no command, nothing really. I guess it should be scary that he is free? He is a court jester, I don`t want him around. He provides the same shtick Crowley or Metatron do on most occassions.

First, Lucifer is faaaaaaaaaar from a Sam-fan. His manipulations were pretty transparent and I think it GAULS him to have to negotiate with a "hairless ape" (as he referred to them when speaking with Cas).
Second, I found him pretty damn scary when he threatened to bring on the pain. THAT was how Lucifer really felt IMO. Everything else is just The Deceiver.

 

I wouldn`t rewatch this or even pieces of it if someone paid me money to. Best thing I can do is probably erasing it from my mind, along with actually episodes 2-9 before  
 
The only thing I can say about Dean in this episode is: he was there. No wonder he is barely or not at all mentioned in any episode reactions. There was not even one scene that stood out. I had been looking forward to Dean meeting Billie at least beforehand but that was, as all he did in this ep, pointless. Jensen gets the same payment no matter how much he works on any given episode but for me the ratio of enjoyment or at least non-hate decreases dramatically if Dean just has nothing to do. It`s like being back in the second half of Season 8 or first half of Season 9. Boring.

Seems like it causes you a lot of irritation. I suggest you do not read my 2nd review, it's full of sunshine and puppies (per usual).


Plot:
- I thought the stakes were pretty high for a mid-season premier. I did NOT expect Rowena to die. I only expected Cas to become Casifer because the sizzler trailer gave it away. I find myself VERY interested in what happens next. I find it interesting that they are going to great lengths to plumb the show backstory this year. Bringing back Colin in a new backstory scene, showing us B-camera roll versions of previously seen scenes. I like it. I'm left with more questions than answers but I'm okay with that. We have 13 more episodes to go.... lots of runway to let it all play out.

Character:
- Sam: it was a GREAT episode for him. To me, Sam is really coming along nicely. I get that he's still feeling like shit about letting out The Darkness but I like that he's not going to compound the situation by saying "yes" to Lucifer. And I have ZERO problem with him showing a strong front w/ Dean to Lucifer.
- Dean: it was a GOOD episode for him. Once again he does a great deal of heavy lifting in terms of moving the plot forward but there was something intriguing in every scene. I could probably watch Doc Cas and him on a loop for about half a day before getting tired of it. And I really want to know what he meant by "Maybe it's a Promise." A promise that Amara's coming to help? Clearly she knew where to send Cas --- which means she knew exactly where Dean was at the moment. But it's also interesting she didn't just place Cas in hell. She sent him to Billie. Does that indicate a limitation or just a convenient way to get another Billie moment? If Amara had not gotten nauseous, would she have gone to Dean? Why not go right away? Just a lot of questions there. But still fascinating to me: she must know EXACTLY where Dean is at all times. Nothing like a God-class entity as your personal stalker. Just sayin'.
- Cas: I'm just not sure WHY he did it. I don't think he's a dummy and I don't think it was despair. Maybe after seeing Amara in action, Cas realized exactly how deep in the shit they were and felt Lucifer was the only option. I don't remotely see it as Cas trying to be a hero. As far as Cas knows, if he says 'yes' to Luci, he's essentially taken himself out of the fight. He's an Archangel condom. Hardly "Chosen One" status IMO. I hope we eventually hear WHY he did what he did.
- Crowley: I think he anticipated Rowena's death just seconds before it happened. I also liked that he tried to stop Dean from entering the cage. I don't care how much he protests, Crowley still likes Dean. And Mark Shepard in footie pajamas was just freaking ADORABLE. As was Rowena with the red nose.
- Rowena: Oh you magnificent woman you. Larger than life she was. A total baddy, and a bit of a head case, but the woman had STYLE. I'm going to miss her. At first I was a bit miffed that she fell for Lucifer and that her hatred stemmed from being a scorned woman.  But really, I'm not sure I bought her truly being in love with whomever the noble was that abandoned her and Fergus.  She's always had that noble-wanna-be stench on her.  It wouldn't surprise me if she had that attitude BEFORE she got pregnant and was just pissed off that the nobleman didn't set her up as a proper mistress.  Surely she didn't think he'd divorce someone back in the 17th century?!  Cared for mistress is the best she could have hoped for in that situation.  It certainly was done often enough.  So... thinking about it some more, I can convince myself that she had thought she had a way into an easy life by getting pregnant and instead became an outcast.  The comment about "if I didn't hate you, I would love you...and love is weakness." did not engender sympathy for her (for me).  Instead, I saw a woman who took out her mistake on her own child and lived a life of revenge (hey, she and John Winchester... now there's a pair).  But of course Rowena was actually vicious about it (versus John, who was just obsessed).  Anyway, her fawning over Lucifer was yet another attempt at borrowed power in my mind.  Not that this makes me not like her.  No... I like Rowena because she was funny... but she was still Evil and slightly pathetic.  So... in that case, getting killed by trying to ride of the power coattails of another man?  Kinda just deserts IMO.  And besides, you put Sammy in that cage with Lucifer.  it's time for you to go bye bye now. 

Lucifer: I think he knows that if he's stuck in the cage when Amara shows up, he's toast.  I think he wanted out to have a shot at fighting her rather than passively wait for her to come and squish him.  I think he THINKS he can defeat her.  I don't know if he can. 

Amara - I liked her snark with Cas when he brought out the Angel blade.  I want to know WHY she sent Cas to Dean. I hope they explain that later (as well as "I Am COMING). And why did she get the smite sickness??? Cool effect of making a local "night" when she was knocked out.

Others:

Young Sam - Colin Ford did well. The plot point was a bit soft --- it would have been more significant if this girl was more than just kissing. 

Micheal reference - Lucifer lies.  Who knows what he's really doing.  The comment about sitting in a corner whacking off sounds like a way of Lucifer insulting Micheal rather than being actual truth.

Billie - more please, she's fun.

 

Directing: Generally well done.  Some weird angles from time to time but I was okay with it.  I wish we had a little more perspective on where/when events were happening. Warning: random tangent coming.... I THINK Amara did her smiting in Massachusetts (Superwiki, probably from newspage on Dean's computer).  But the meeting with Dean looked like the mountains (hence Rockies ... Colorado).  That puts the action in 11.10 as Colorado, Kansas (bunker), and Kennesaw Nebraska (about an hour from Lebanon, KS). Since Sam & Dean probably met with Crowley near his throne room (where they were at later in 11.09) in New Jersey... I could see Sam/Rowena heading back to the bunker while Dean went to Massachusetts to investigate the smiting.  Amara can take Dean anywhere on the planet and could move Cas anywhere as well.  Which makes the only truly implausible car trip the drive Dean makes from a mile near the Angel nuke back to the bunker.  Still... I let these details bug me.  Anyway, that's more on the 11.09 director (to put the Angel nuke in Colorado-ish) and it WAS pretty so... I'll let it go.

 

Bottom Line: I really liked the scale of this episode.  It was BIG.  Much happened to propel us into the back half of S11.  I am sorry to lose Rowena's snark but it was a "good" death as villains go. 

 

[catrox14]

Wait was that Amara/Dean showdown location really supposed to be in Colorado...because OMG they weren't even TRYING to get that right.  At least with earlier season episodes they did it in the mountains in Vancouver with some pine trees.

 

- former Coloradoan

[catrox14]

ARgghhhhh my DVR erased the episode. I wanted to watch it again even though it annoyed me. And I know it won't get repeated. BOO. I don't understand this. I have Supernatural as my top show and it supercedes everything else. WTF? :(

[SueB]

Bummer Catrox. Maybe try CWTV?

That's just me spitballin' on Colorado as nearest local big mountains to Kansas.

[catrox14]

Oh I know,  but I have an obsession with having the current season on my DVR so I can watch it on my HDTV and FF the ads and you know obsess about the episodes. FFFFFFFFFF.

 

Yeah those would be the nearest and the show has tried to pass off Colorado many time but I hope they make those mountains elsewhere.  Let's not forget that Baby has an FTL drive in her trunk :)

[Omegamom]

Hah. I actually thought it looked like Alaska...arboreal forest, plains with big mountains, big lake and all. And why they had Dean able to drive there, when Ms. Darkness coulda zapped them anywhere in the world and doesn't strike me as the kind who would be considerate enough to make it someplace they could get to easily...

(Hmmm. That's a convoluted sentence, but I think it's understandable.)

[catrox14]

I was thinking like Washington but yes Alaska makes much more sense!

[KirkB]

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around Cas letting Luci out. I know he's always been kind of gullible and this is a desperate situation, but come on! Even if Luci manages to beat Amara, which is sort of the long shot to beat all long shots, you're still dealing with the devil loose on Earth and no way left to contain or stop him. Amara may well intend to destroy everything, but so does Luci. It's a cliche, I know, but this is one of those situation where it really applies: "Whichever one wins, we lose."

[bethy]

Wait was that Amara/Dean showdown location really supposed to be in Colorado...because OMG they weren't even TRYING to get that right.  At least with earlier season episodes they did it in the mountains in Vancouver with some pine trees.

 

- former Coloradoan

Those same pine trees that were in "Richardson, Texas"? :)

[Ria]

I still can't get past how easy it was for Rowena to spring Lucifer from the cage. Lilith had to break all those seals to do it, including getting Dean into hell and manipulating Sam(through Ruby) into killing her. I guess I shouldn't be surprised since it once took an army of angels to free Dean from hell while Sam could just walz on in and quickly find and rescue Bobby. The writers have gotten very, very lazy.

[mertensia]

This seems like "classic Dabb" to me. I could totally see him researching something to hamper Rowena, find this device, and put it in the script. He seems to be fond of the medieval antiquities. I honestly think THAT (historically pseudo-accurate) was more the driver than misogyny. Now the original makers of the device?? Total misogynists.

Yeah I swear I saw items similar to that in the Medieval Crime Museum in Rothenburg ob der Tauber when I was there a few years back.

Edited January 23, 2016 by mertensia

[Demented Daisy]

Yeah I swear I saw items similar to that in the Medieval Crime Museum in Rothenburg ob der Tauber when I was there a few years back.

 

Hey, I've been there!  We always called it the Torture Museum.  And you did:

 

http://www.kriminalmuseum.eu/project/witches-and-robbers/?lang=en

 

[SueB]

Wow, that looks exactly like what they used, except props clearly put a leather guard around the inside to protect Ruth's throat. And I'm betting hers was made of soft rubber. Freakin' scary shit.

Edited January 23, 2016 by SueB

[mertensia]

Yes! My memory still works! The museum was interesting but not a fun time! Museum. There were just so many instruments of torture people used. So afterwards we went souvenir shopping at the Kathe Wolfahrt Christmas store to feel better.

[DittyDotDot]

So I've been really busy this week and didn't get to the episode til yesterday morning and really didn't have the desire to even read the thread til just now. I guess it wasn't bad, per se, but just nothing in it engaged me. It's kinda sad the bar is so low with this show anymore that I feel like it's a win to say it wasn't offensive.

 

Anyhoo, basically everything I was hoping they wouldn't do, they did do. This is what happens when you try out positive thinking people. I don't recommend it.

 

So, Lucifer is free--yeah, like they haven't done that before--and, Cass leaps before looking yet again? I probably should take solace in the consistency, but it just makes me sad (and it's not just because I think Misha wen't waaay too broad with his Lucifer), I just really wanted the show to have moved on from Lucifer...it's time to let that shit go and move on, if you ask me. It's definitely time to move on from what a mess they made of the Amelia stuff. Especially if they're just going to say the same damn thing they've always said. Whatever.

 

My only hope right now is this Lucifer-in-a-Cass won't drag on for the rest of the season. Oh, I have another hope: Lucifer gets his ass handed to him by Amara--and is really and truly dead this time. But since I rarely get even one wish granted, I'm not banking on getting two.

 

As a side note: I found it funny the episode started with Dean driving Baby. In the previous episode Amara zapped him to parts unknown, but Dean manages to not only get back to Baby, but also drive back to the smiting ground in pretty good time. I wish I could find me a Winchester wormhole; it saves not only time, but gas. ;)

[SueB]

As a side note: I found it funny the episode started with Dean driving Baby. In the previous episode Amara zapped him to parts unknown, but Dean manages to not only get back to Baby, but also drive back to the smiting ground in pretty good time. I wish I could find me a Winchester wormhole; it saves not only time, but gas. ;)

She zapped him back to the hotdog stand before the smitting, so he was near Baby and far from her.