All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[SeanC]

Also, Pezberry doing I kissed a girl (or them even doing it at all) was a huge no.

That's one of the worst instances where the show's general habit of only caring about the choruses of songs (understandable, to an extent, since they aren't performing original music tailored specifically to their needs [except when they are, of course]).  Though if the storyline surrounding it had been good, I don't think people would have cared; but since IKAG was heinous, the titular song just became emblematic of everything that was wrong with the handling of that storyline.

 

As far as things like the differing treatments of Brittany inadvertently revealing stuff about her and Santana versus Finn doing so, a lot of that is the show's gaping tonal inconsistency; Brittany is meant to be primarily a comedic character, so the stuff she does isn't supposed to "matter" (and also because most of the time the implication is she just doesn't understand what she's doing), even though other characters who are in serious stories are viewed differently.  The show has never shied away from treating similar actions differently based on what tone they're working on within that particular scene.

[tab19]

jtrattray, to answer your Brittana question:  I think there's two reasons I ship Brittana.  1 - To a great extent, it's because of the chemistry between Naya and Heather.  2 - Representation.  There just aren't that many lesbian couples on TV today.  When you're willing to watch TV shows just because of SUBTEXT between two female characters, actual MAINTEXT is hard to resist.

 

Frankly, I only started watching Glee because of Brittana.  So I'm a Brittana fan first, and a Glee fan a distant second.  I'm also a Santana fan more than a Brittany fan - which, you might think, would make me want a better love interest for Santana than Brittany, whom the Glee writers have used as a comedic punching bag, destroying any consistency for her character.  (But RIB never provided one - Dani was around for about 4.5 seconds)

 

However, the reason I can STILL ship Brittana is because in the scenes that really matter to their relationship, they have typically written Brittany as at least emotionally aware and capable of being an actual partner to Santana.  So my YouTube clip show of their relationship doesn't include Brittany eating Cheerios off the floor or believing in Santa Claus or magic combs; it covers background moments and heartfelt locker confessions or confrontations.  If the writers can't be bothered to care about writing a consistent show, why should I keep as canon all their garbage?  So I take the RIB approach, "It's Glee!" and ignore all the crap they've done that is completely ridiculous and appalling and honestly unreasonable, and only accept what I like.  I can accept Brittany being a little ditzy and mixing up words.  (Mind you, there are some great explanations from more serious fans for Brittany's behavior - my favorite is that she's trolling the shit out of everyone.)  Besides, plenty of excellent fan fiction has fixed just about everything the show has fucked up, anyway.

 

I skipped pretty much all of Season 4/5 except for when Santana was in the show.  And I'll watch Season 6 the same way - skimming the parts I don't care about (or probably more accurately watching it unfold with eyes partially averted like it's a train wreck), and enjoying a canon lesbian couple on a major network TV show getting an all too rare happy ending.  If I could quit these cheerleaders (and Glee) I probably would - but I can't, and hopefully I won't be punished too harshly (by the show) for it.

Edited January 3, 2015 by tab19

[ComfySweater]

Matthew Morrison is very talented. Will has been written terribly more often than not. He seems aware the show stopped caring about him much in season 2 at the very latest. I'm actually somewhat amazed he never went postal after New Normal took a go at him. 

[spiritof76]

So I've been down sick with this awful flu/whatever the heck is going around, and as such have way too much time on my hands. I got the idea in my head to go back starting in Season 1 and look at some of my favorite musical performances. In later seasons the musical performances were all I ended up watching, fast forwarding through most of the scenes. Funny thing, when I started with Season 1 I found myself not wanting to fast forward through the scenes. Before I realized it I was watching full episodes. I think because of what Glee has become I forgot how enjoyable Season 1 and even a lot of Season 2 was. Oh they had their problems, but there was just something there that jumped off the screen. I wouldn't say the musical numbers were afterthoughts, but they somehow just blended so much better into the story. And they did choreography (not as much aimless jumping and running around). But it looked like the type of choreography that a bunch of teenagers and their show choir director would come up with. Same with their costumes. They always looked cute to me, but they looked like something some kids threw together and for the competitions they looked like something they made from a pattern. I don't know it was all just so enjoyable.

 

And watching Season 1 has reminded me yet again, what a disservice this show did to both Matt and Jayma. They totally could have been the coach and Tammy Taylor of Glee. A more screwed up version, but both Matt and Jayma had the chops and the chemistry to make that work. They drug out that will they /won't they with them too long. 

 

There was just some really good groundwork laid in Season 1 (and part of Season 2) that I frankly had forgotten about. Now that we are looking at the end, it just seems sad that they bungled so much of it. I agree there were some weak links in the cast, but as a group, they were very strong and brought a lot to the table. The mistake was in thinking that type of thing is easily replicated. looking back I can see what they were doing then was not easy. 

[jaytee1812]

The groundwork for the terrible is their in season 1. The first 13 episode are most consistent storyline and character wise, but they're as racist and misogynist as the rest of the show, if not more so.

[spiritof76]

 

but they're as racist and misogynist as the rest of the show, if not more so

You have a point. But it at least seemed like originally when they were being awful or having characters be awful, they acknowledged that they were awful (usually). Somewhere along the way they stopped doing that. They decided some bullying was funny, but some was serious. Certain oppression or discrimination was deemed worse than others. It started out as a more adult show in my opinion. I still can't forget how Emma found Rachel trying to make herself throw up in the bathroom, and Rachel told her she couldn't do it because she didn't have a gag reflex and how Emma told her very pleasantly that she would be grateful for that later. For me the dark comedy aspect of it, is what made some of the more questionable things work. Once thy changed the tone of the show, it all went off the rails. 

 

 

 

Anyway there were always problems with the show from the start, but the whole thing went off the rails when they changed the tone of the show. 

[jaytee1812]

I found in the early episode that having a diverse cast is just window dressing. They are either literally in the background or propping up others stories. The same is true of every woman except Rachel.

[SevenStars]

HANA CHAN, ON 03 JAN 2015 - 07:12 AM, SAID:

Where Glee went wrong was that they brought up this unfairness but didn’t really address it or resolve it. They just let it slide once Blaine got cast and Mercedes refused sharing the part with Rachel. The unfairness was allowed to continue, and the directors were never called out on their prejudices. That Artie, a guy who was ignored as a possible soloist because he was in a wheelchair, and Beiste who was tormented over not being seen as a proper woman would mock Kurt as “too much a lady” and not be called out by anyone about it was especially distasteful for me.

 

 

I totally agree with this because by going this route Glee makes it seems like what Beiste said was okay and the unfairness of the situation was okay. That it was Mercedes and Kurt who were wrong for not accepting the fact that their talent was being tossed aside because they didn't LOOK the part. They made it seems like the bad guys were Kurt and Mercedes for asking for fairness, while everyone else were in the right. But unfortunately, this is not the first that Glee brought up an important topic but made it worst.

 

They did that when Kurt told Quinn that she couldn't possibly knows what it was like to be so hurt by the actions of others, that she felt like ending her life. Acting like only gay people know that type of pain, not someone who was tossed aside by their parents when she needed them most. Not someone who had to make the hard decision of giving up her baby. They basically acted like gay only kids were killing themselves, not all children who are being bully. Like the 13 yr old kid in Canada who killed himself because he was being bully for being black. I understand that they were trying to deal with the rapid suicidal attempts and death that was going on in the LGBTQ community but I wished they had just deal with that, without acting like suicidal attempts and death form different type of bully wasn't a problem also. 

 

They also recently did that with the Bash episodes, by acting like Mercedes and her friends were the bad guys while Sam was the poor innocent white guy being discriminated against. They ignored how racially ignorant and racist Sam was in that dinner scenes. That Sam's actions was enough for the girls not to like him beside his color. That while Mercedes and her friends were wrong, Sam was also wrong. So for the audience who don't know better, they will continue to think that what Sam did was okay. By not calling Sam out, the writers have basically tell those who don't know better, that they continue to be racially ignorant and racist in their actions. I hate that especially when I've seen how racially ignorant and racist some in this fandom can be.

[ComfySweater]

Didn't Sam also assume all black people know each other? Sam's been consistently racist for a character given a hero edit every chance they've had.

[SevenStars]

Didn't Sam also assume all black people know each other? Sam's been consistently racist for a character given a hero edit every chance they've had.

 

Yeah and I wouldn't call Sam racist. I just think he is racially ignorant and I get why he would be this way because of  where he grow-up. So I had no problem with the writers writing him like that despite the fact that he is one of my faves, my problem was that the writers didn't address the fact that his actions were racially ignorant. That Sam wasn't the innocent victim that Mercedes' friends dislike because of his skin and he was in the right.

 

But I'm not surprise the writers did it this way because past episodes have showed that writers don't really care about race issues and racial stereotypes unless it can be use to makes specific characters look good.  

[tab19]

They did that when Kurt told Quinn that she couldn't possibly knows what it was like to be so hurt by the actions of others, that she felt like ending her life. Acting like only gay people know that type of pain, not someone who was tossed aside by their parents when she needed them most. Not someone who had to make the hard decision of giving up her baby. They basically acted like gay only kids were killing themselves, not all children who are being bully. Like the 13 yr old kid in Canada who killed himself because he was being bully for being black. I understand that they were trying to deal with the rapid suicidal attempts and death that was going on in the LGBTQ community but I wished they had just deal with that, without acting like suicidal attempts and death form different type of bully wasn't a problem also. 

I am a very forgiving viewer, and tend not to be critical.  However: this scene struck me as so incredibly unfair to Quinn - and absolutely ridiculous in general - that it took me right out of the show.  This was also the first time I was really struck by the 'St. Gay of Lima' writing that was so lamented on TWOP.  I like the character of Kurt a great deal, but when he was the gay martyr, as in this scene - wow, so off-putting.  Really?  Your pain is worse than anything anyone else has experienced?  Um, just no.  And what a terrible precedent to set - 'Yes, kids, it's okay to judge others and their suffering, and gay kids always have the moral high ground."  Maybe this is why some Klaine fans feel so entitled: they've been told repeatedly on the show that gay men have the highest moral ground.

Edited January 3, 2015 by tab19

[ComfySweater]

And all a pregnant teenage girl kicked out of her house could have are rich white girl problems. They did some bad things with Quinn nearly every time they gave her a story. 

[jaytee1812]

I am a very forgiving viewer, and tend not to be critical.  However: this scene struck me as so incredibly unfair to Quinn - and absolutely ridiculous in general - that it took me right out of the show.  This was also the first time I was really struck by the 'St. Gay of Lima' writing that was so lamented on TWOP.  I like the character of Kurt a great deal, but when he was the gay martyr, as in this scene - wow, so off-putting.  Really?  Your pain is worse than anything anyone else has experienced?  Um, just no.  And what a terrible precedent to set - 'Yes, kids, it's okay to judge others and their suffering, and gay kids always have the moral high ground."  Maybe this is why some Klaine fans feel so entitled: they've been told repeatedly on the show that gay men have the highest moral ground.

 

Sam does it as well to Quinn in Hold On To Sixteen, he refers to her having 'white girl problems' as if they mean nothing. She was kicked out of home, gave up her baby and as far as we know never spoke to her father again, he just dismissed it. The implication was there too that Sam had it so much worse, now losing your home and having to move sucks, but he never lost his family, something Quinn couldn't say. 

 

I think Sam is a racist, I don't think he means to be but stupidity isn't an excuse. I also think it was problematic the way the show had him chase Mercedes in season 3, not lease because she told him not to, but also because they tried to show him as 'better' than her black boyfriend. 

[SevenStars]

I am a very forgiving viewer, and tend not to be critical.  However: this scene struck me as so incredibly unfair to Quinn - and absolutely ridiculous in general - that it took me right out of the show.  This was also the first time I was really struck by the 'St. Gay of Lima' writing that was so lamented on TWOP.  I like the character of Kurt a great deal, but when he was the gay martyr, as in this scene - wow, so off-putting.  Really?  Your pain is worse than anything anyone else has experienced?  Um, just no.  And what a terrible precedent to set - 'Yes, kids, it's okay to judge others and their suffering, and gay kids always have the moral high ground."  Maybe this is why some Klaine fans feel so entitled: they've been told repeatedly on the show that gay men have the highest moral ground.

 

Kurt is my second fav after Mercedes but I wanted so badly for someone to call him out for his arrogance in this scenes. I hated that everyone kept silent like he was right. That's when I think I realized that for Glee writers, no pain is greater than the pain gay people face. I hated that because it basically dismissed everyone else's pain.

[Hana Chan]

I can understand when the student characters are myopic when it comes to their issues and concerns. Kids tend to be self involved and thinking that their problems are the worst ever. And there are plenty of moments when the kids aren't as empathetic as we'd like the to be. Quinn was one of several that weren't exactly overflowing with empathy towards Kurt regarding his atheism while his father lay in a coma.

 

The bigger issue for me is when the adults in the show (Will, Emma, Sue, Beiste, etc.) are incapable of seeing the inherent unfairness in how the students are often treated and not only do nothing to resolve that unfairness, but are often agents of that unfairness.

[spiritof76]

That Quinn/Kurt scene still burns me up to this day! 

Edited January 3, 2015 by spiritof76

[jaytee1812]

 Tina would have made a much better Maria. 

 

 

Someone said this on the fandom thread (sorry I forgot who): 

 

I always thought Tina would be the best Maria, but I thought it just the Tina stan in me!

 

I thought WSS and Grease were cast all wrong and racially ignorant. 

 

Mike would have made a much better Bernardo (I granted that would be a bit weird with Tina as Maria), and that would have stopped us having Puck and Rory sing about how hard life is for minorities in America (talk about tone deaf). I'm not sure who I would have playing Tony, either Blaine or Kurt wouldn't be bad, I just can't see either of them winning a fight with Puck.

 

I think a white Maria was racially tone deaf, as was the scene where Artie, Bieste and Emma discuss Mercedes suitably for the part. Every code word for plus size black woman was in there. 

 

I thought Grease was a mess casting wise all over (except Marley for Sandy, that was actually perfect). But the one that stood out to me was Jake or Ryder for Danny, it just looked like the only suitably Ryder had over Jake was his ability to get the hairstyle right, so basically Jake didn't get the part because he wasn't white.  

 

The bigger issue for me is when the adults in the show (Will, Emma, Sue, Beiste, etc.) are incapable of seeing the inherent unfairness in how the students are often treated and not only do nothing to resolve that unfairness, but are often agents of that unfairness.

 

The scene in Lights Out where Ryder confesses he was molested and Artie and Sam wonder why he didn't enjoy and Mr Schu barely says anything, burns me just thinking about it. I kept expecting them to fix it somehow in the episode but they never did. 

[tab19]

I can understand when the student characters are myopic when it comes to their issues and concerns. Kids tend to be self involved and thinking that their problems are the worst ever. And there are plenty of moments when the kids aren't as empathetic as we'd like the to be. Quinn was one of several that weren't exactly overflowing with empathy towards Kurt regarding his atheism while his father lay in a coma.

I totally get this.  And I'm okay with kids being myopic - of course Kurt is focused on Dave's suicide attempt, etc.  It feels personal; that's fine.  

 

The problem, for me, is that the writers present Kurt's view as 'the right one' - which is not okay.  The scene needed *someone* to call out Kurt so that the viewers could SEE that he was being myopic.  Or if not call out Kurt to his face (since that might be too aggressive), have someone later say to Quinn, 'Kurt was wrong, we all have our own pain' and point out that Kurt was wrong to say that to Quinn.  

[jaytee1812]

Kurt is my second fav after Mercedes but I wanted so badly for someone to call him out for his arrogance in this scenes. I hated that everyone kept silent like he was right. That's when I think I realized that for Glee writers, no pain is greater than the pain gay people face. I hated that because it basically dismissed everyone else's pain.

Now that's not true. For Glee writers no pain is worse than the pain of a white man, gay or straight. Don't you realise how tough these white men have it?!!* 

 

*the sarcasm is apparent here, right?

[ComfySweater]

*the sarcasm is apparent here, right?

While yours is, the problem is the show never really got that tone right. They wanted to be edgy and ironic, but it was like rain on their wedding day. It wasn't nearly as ironic as the title of the song would have you believe. 

[Sara2009]

I know we like to pick on Will as a teacher, but let's not forget Emma and her Celibacy Club extremism.

And don't get me started on Sue, who should probably be in jail right now. Ha ha

[jaytee1812]

I know we like to pick on Will as a teacher, but let's not forget Emma and her Celibacy Club extremism.

And don't get me started on Sue, who should probably be in jail right now. Ha ha

 I hate Sue, I don't love to hate her, I don't find racist, homophobic bullies funny. 

 

Emma was a dreadful guidance counsellor, she never gave anyone guidance. I think that was suppose to be the joke, that all public school teachers are dreadful, but it's not funny. 

[ComfySweater]

And don't get me started on Sue, who should probably be in jail right now. Ha ha

Sue punched somebody politically important on stage in the era of cell phones. She'd be in jail if anybody involved in this show thought anything through.

[Danielle87]

 

I thought Grease was a mess casting wise all over (except Marley for Sandy, that was actually perfect). But the one that stood out to me was Jake or Ryder for Danny, it just looked like the only suitably Ryder had over Jake was his ability to get the hairstyle right, so basically Jake didn't get the part because he wasn't white.

 

I actually think the Glease casting was spot on compared to all the other musicals Glee did. Marley as Sandy, Santana as Rizzo, Sugar as Frenchie, Blaine as Teen Angel were all perfect for their roles. The only misstep was Ryder over Jake.

[jaytee1812]

I actually think the Glease casting was spot on compared to all the other musicals Glee did. Marley as Sandy, Santana as Rizzo, Sugar as Frenchie, Blaine as Teen Angel were all perfect for their roles. The only misstep was Ryder over Jake.

I agree about Marley, Santana worked as Rizzo but having her there was awful, that should've been Tina or Kitty. I think Unique should've been Jan or Frenchie, casting her as Rizzo looked like stunt casting. Blaine was perfect as Teen Angel though.

I am willing to be corrected but on screen and off there is no area in which Jake comes off worse, and both onscreen and off I don't think the decision was conscious but it does look like Jake lost out because he wasn't white.

[camussie]

Wasn't Jake Kinencki?  To me at least, Danny was always the more awkward less cool one in that duo of friends and I felt Ryder was too  compared to Jake.  Nothing to do with color but rather with their personalities.  For example if the original Glee club did Grease I would have expected Finn to be Danny and Puck to be Kinecki because Puck was much smoother and comfortable in his own skin than Finn.

 

While Glee had issues with race, I really don't feel that the casting of Grease was one of those times.  I would also say that I never had an issue with Tina, Mercedes, or Santana supporting Rachel's story because they were supporting characters while she was a lead character.  It was the way they supported her story i.e. they all were called lazy in comparison, some coded language they used with Mercedes, etc.  That is where Glee used horrible stereotypes.  

Edited January 3, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

Wasn't Jacob Kinencki?  To me at least, Danny was always the more awkward less cool one in that duo of friends and I felt Ryder was too  compared to Jake.  Nothing to do with color but rather with their personalities.

No Sam was Kenickie. They mentioned that role isn't even auditioned for. Jake plays the one that's Frenchie's boyfriend. So one of the dorky ones!

[camussie]

Thanks. Then that is where I think there was horrible casting - Sam as Kinecki instead of Jake. Not sure if it was racially motivated or not but there is no way Sam is a better fit for Kinecki than Jake.

[jaytee1812]

Thanks. Then that is where I think there was horrible casting - Sam as Kinecki instead of Jake. Not sure if it was racially motivated or not but there is no way Sam is a better fit for Kinecki than Jake.

 

Totally, and with Kitty as Rizzo it would've played into the rivalries they were trying to play out in the characters. I always felt with the newbies that they almost tried to promote and lessen their importance at the same time. They had to have Sam and Blaine in Grease, the had to have the graduates involved.

 

I was felt the newbies were around these people for so long yet the writers developed no relationships between any of the old characters and the new. 

[caracas1914]

Kurt is my second fav after Mercedes but I wanted so badly for someone to call him out for his arrogance in this scenes. I hated that everyone kept silent like he was right. That's when I think I realized that for Glee writers, no pain is greater than the pain gay people face. I hated that because it basically dismissed everyone else's pain.

 

 

See this is what drives me crazy about the Glee writers.  Yes, Kurt was wrong in dismissing Quinn's experiences.  Yet he was right in that  Quinn in essence said she could not relate to Dave's despair. .  I'm still floored everyone overlooks that.

 

What started Kurt's reaction was Quinn's moral judgement on Dave trying to commit suicide.

 

Aftrer Quinn saying earlier that they should pray for Karfosky's family, " they could use comfort more than he could"   (seriously WTF)

 

Here is the Quinn/Kurt dialogue:

 

Quinn:  I feel sorry for Karofsky but what he did was selfish.  He not only wanted to hurt himself but everyone around him.

I went through the ringer, but I never got  to that place.

 

Kurt:  Quinn, please.  Sure you had a baby when you were sixteen, and you had a bad dye job for two weeks,  seriously the world never stopped loving you.

and you're going to Yale.  You have no idea what Karofsky was struggling with

 

Quinn: You really want to  try  to compare..

 

Kurt: the despair, the self loathing..

 

Quinn: It doesn't matter, I just can't imagine things getting so  messed that you would consider taking your own life..

 

Kurt: That is so harsh and  reductive , have some compassion, You know what they are still writing in the facebook?  better luck next time, and try, try again !

 

 

The Kurt confesseses he went to the God club because he felt responsible, because he refused to pick up any of Karofsky's calls, and if he had answered "any of those stupid calls.." while he breaks down

 

Now of course Kurt was insensitive to minimize what Quinn went through, but people forget he was respnding to her first COMPARING herself to Karofsky, saying that she never got down to suicide.  She was the one drawing her own experience and smugly saying she never got to that point. 

 

So Kurt wasn't wrong, she couldn't get why Karofsky attempted suicide.  The despair he felt.

 

Quinn than projected that Kurt was comparing them, and even then, said, she still couldn't understand why anyone would try to kill themselves.

 

I mean fair enough, but she was being in her own way IMO as judgmental if not worse than what Kurt was in that scene.  Yet alot of people overlook that completely.  It's not as if Quinn's experiences had made her any more compassionate or understanding Is what I'm saying.

Edited January 3, 2015 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

I think the problem is Kurt minimises what Quinn went through. He says "you gave up a baby" like she gave up chocolate.

They're both wrong, Quinn for judging Dave and not showing compassion, but Kurt's response is just as wrong.

[caracas1914]

Believe me I'm not overlooking how harsh Kurt was, but what annoys me is the monicker " Saint Quinn" and Self righteous martyr that are always thrown on Kurt in that scene is seldom applied to Quinn. Kurt minimized her teenage pregnancy but Quinn just as emphatically minimized Karofsky despair on being outed and feeling alone.

[KatWay]

 

They're both wrong, Quinn for judging Dave and not showing compassion, but Kurt's response is just as wrong.

 

Exactly. And the show clearly wanted the audience to agree with Kurt, that's what makes it problematic to me. Quinn is shown as the wrong one here, Kurt as the right one, that's why people keep using the "Saint Kurt" thing. Because RIB use him in this scene as a mouthpiece on what moral the audience is supposed to get.

[Myrna123]

I think the problem is Kurt minimises what Quinn went through. He says "you gave up a baby" like she gave up chocolate.

They're both wrong, Quinn for judging Dave and not showing compassion, but Kurt's response is just as wrong.

In a show incapable of subtlety, that scene was only about Quinn (no doubt as a stand-in for the religious right) being sanctimonious and heartless in the face of someone's despair. It wasn't about how teenagers minimize one another's pain and suffering or anything else but how some people's response to suicide is condemnation and moral superiority. That they would have Quinn--who if she had been allowed any character growth at all would have been understanding--voice the sentiment is just more RIB cluelessness.

And what is the correct response when someone uses their not being moved to suicide despite their past problems as proof that anyone who tries to kill themselves is selfish? Kurt is going to get branded as St. Kurt or as a guy mansplaining no matter how he responds to that: "Quinn your pain was true and deep, but can't you find it in your heart to understand Dave's?"

[jaytee1812]

As I said earlier they do the same with Sam and Quinn when he refers to her having 'white girl problems'. In fact I don't remember anyone ever being shown to understand that Quinn went through something major, except for obvious reasons, Puck.

Every character was shown to be affected by Karofsky's suicide attempt and the whole glee club helped Kurt when he was being bullied by Karofsky.

The scene just ends up looking like no-one has it as bad as gay men.

Sort of related to this, there is a great scene in the UK Queer as Folk where Nathan, a young white gay man bemoans to his friend Donna how tough life is, and that she has no idea how tough life is. Donna points out she's both black and a woman and has every idea how tough life is!

And what is the correct response when someone uses their not being moved to suicide despite their past problems as proof that anyone who tries to kill themselves is selfish? Kurt is going to get branded as St. Kurt or as a guy mansplaining no matter how he responds to that: "Quinn your pain was true and deep, but can't you find it in your heart to understand Dave's?"

They could've done without minimising that she gave up her child. Have Kurt says "me neither, but we shouldn't judge Dave for it.' Or have it not come from Kurt, have it come from Mercedes.

[tab19]

Quinn:  I feel sorry for Karofsky but what he did was selfish.  He not only wanted to hurt himself but everyone around him.

I went through the ringer, but I never got  to that place.

Kurt:  Quinn, please.  Sure you had a baby when you were sixteen, and you had a bad dye job for two weeks,  seriously the world never stopped loving you.  and you're going to Yale.  You have no idea what Karofsky was struggling with

Quinn: You really want to  try  to compare..

Kurt: the despair, the self loathing..

Quinn: It doesn't matter, I just can't imagine things getting so  messed that you would consider taking your own life..

Kurt: That is so harsh and  reductive , have some compassion, You know what they are still writing in the facebook?  better luck next time, and try, try again !

I had forgotten about Quinn's opening line, which obviously is reprehensible.  You know, if they had deleted Kurt's commentary (in bold, where he is being just as reprehensible as Quinn), and then Quinn's response this actually could have worked.  That is, Kurt could have been telling Quinn (and the audience) that calling suicide 'selfish' is wrong, and that trying to measure someone else's pain is a waste of time. And I would have been FINE with that. Instead, what I - and obviously many others remembered - was Kurt's comment, not Quinn's.  Thus probably entirely missing whatever point they were trying to make.  Oh Glee, you suck so much.

 

ETA:  No doubt Myrna123 is right, and this was a knock at the religious right, carried out (in my view) poorly, since I remembered the wrong part of the conversation.

Edited January 3, 2015 by tab19

[jaytee1812]

Reading it back I know the show wants me to agree with Kurt, and I agree Quinn is really harsh, but if I had a slap to deliver Kurt would still get it. "The world never stop loving you" she lost her family, and at that point has never repaired her relationship with her father. She went from the most popular girl in school to having glee club and no-one else. The world stopped loving you actually sums up exactly what happened to Quinn when she got pregnant.

[Sara2009]

I think they addressed the " don't measure pain" thing with the pow-wow on the stage with Will.

[SevenStars]

Sam does it as well to Quinn in Hold On To Sixteen, he refers to her having 'white girl problems' as if they mean nothing. She was kicked out of home, gave up her baby and as far as we know never spoke to her father again, he just dismissed it. The implication was there too that Sam had it so much worse, now losing your home and having to move sucks, but he never lost his family, something Quinn couldn't say. 

 

I think Sam is a racist, I don't think he means to be but stupidity isn't an excuse. I also think it was problematic the way the show had him chase Mercedes in season 3, not lease because she told him not to, but also because they tried to show him as 'better' than her black boyfriend. 

I don't think Sam is racist but there are a lot of problematic stuff that he has learned from society that he needs to unlearn. I think if Sam knew better, he would do better because he is not a bad guy,

 

As for Shane/Mercedes/Sam triangle, the only thing I didn't like about is that the writers acted like Shane was just a placeholder until Sam come back, as result we didn't really get to see Shane's reaction to Sam openly going after his girl. But I never thought the writers were trying to tell the audience that Sam was "better" than Shane. I think the writers spent a good amount of time showing us that Sam was the guy that Mercedes truly wanted but stayed with Shane because she didn't want to break his heart. She didn't think it was right to dump her boyfriend, just because her ex came back into her life. But I never saw the writers either telling or implied that Sam was better than Shane. In fact by having Mercedes tell Sam they were wrong in how they went about their relationship, the writers implied that it was Sam and Mercedes who were in the wrong, not Shane.  

[tab19]

As I said earlier they do the same with Sam and Quinn when he refers to her having 'white girl problems'. In fact I don't remember anyone ever being shown to understand that Quinn went through something major, except for obvious reasons, Puck.

You could argue that the WRITERS never seem to remember or understand that Quinn went through something major!  In Season Three, when she and Santana are counting the votes, she says something like, "We've had a pretty great high school career" to Santana - it's part of the set up for making Rachel the Prom Queen. 

 

Quinn is SITTING IN A WHEEL CHAIR when she says it!  She had a unplanned teen pregnancy as a sophmore; junior year I guess wasn't too traumatic; and then senior year she's a skank/has some sort of mental breakdown, and then ends up in a wheelchair due to a car accident.  REALLY?  That's a pretty great high school career??  I mean, maybe if she was at least OUT OF THE WHEELCHAIR at that point, but good grief!

[Glorfindel]

I had forgotten about Quinn's opening line, which obviously is reprehensible. You know, if they had deleted Kurt's commentary (in bold, where he is being just as reprehensible as Quinn), and then Quinn's response this actually could have worked. That is, Kurt could have been telling Quinn (and the audience) that calling suicide 'selfish' is wrong, and that trying to measure someone else's pain is a waste of time. And I would have been FINE with that. Instead, what I - and obviously many others remembered - was Kurt's comment, not Quinn's. Thus probably entirely missing whatever point they were trying to make. Oh Glee, you suck so much.

It all comes down to shitty writing.

The writers try to make a point, but then shoot way over it by making it too obvious and/or using a sledgehammer to drill home their newest PSA.

So instead of the audience seeing what the writers want them to see in a scene like this the audience sees the imbalance, the bias, and the sympathy being artificially and contrivedly skewed to one character, while the actual message gets lost as viewers focus on the unfairness of it all.

 

And in the process of delivering their message the writers also often waltz over characters' feelings because they don't matter as long as the message gets delivered. The character putting up a (weak) protest against the message, or them getting 'schooled' by the character who delivers the message, basically are only props (and tbf: often the character who delivers the message is no more than a prop too, a mouthpiece), and they are usually picked by the writers at random without really looking at their canon experiences or characterisation.

 

 

I always had the feeling RIB hated Quinn, and were looking down on her experiences because the pregnancy was self-inflicted, while ignoring how she suffered.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Glorfindel

[jaytee1812]

You could argue that the WRITERS never seem to remember or understand that Quinn went through something major!  In Season Three, when she and Santana are counting the votes, she says something like, "We've had a pretty great high school career" to Santana - it's part of the set up for making Rachel the Prom Queen. 

 

Quinn is SITTING IN A WHEEL CHAIR when she says it!  She had a unplanned teen pregnancy as a sophmore; junior year I guess wasn't too traumatic; and then senior year she's a skank/has some sort of mental breakdown, and then ends up in a wheelchair due to a car accident.  REALLY?  That's a pretty great high school career??  I mean, maybe if she was at least OUT OF THE WHEELCHAIR at that point, but good grief!

They then compound it in Goodbye by have the voiceover about her going out on top. She's just begun to walk again, and Beth's still with her adopted mom who apparently left without a second thought to Quinn or Puck.

I always thought it was weird they made Kitty a fan girl. I would've thought Quinn was her warning tale of exactly what not to do to keep your HBIC status.

I always had the feeling RIB hated Quinn, and were looking down on her experiences because the pregnancy was self-inflicted, while ignoring how she suffered.

It's a common reaction to teen girls getting pregnant. It's interesting that apart from the fight with Finn it has no negative repercussions for Puck. In season three he looks like a good guy for being interested in Beth, Quinn's turned into a crazy person.

[ComfySweater]

When they finally got done with making Quinn crazy it became Tina's turn. They never got tired of making some girl or another dive off the deep end.

[SevenStars]

See this is what drives me crazy about the Glee writers.  Yes, Kurt was wrong in dismissing Quinn's experiences.  Yet he was right in that  Quinn in essence said she could not relate to Dave's despair. .  I'm still floored everyone overlooks that.

 

What started Kurt's reaction was Quinn's moral judgement on Dave trying to commit suicide.

 

Aftrer Quinn saying earlier that they should pray for Karfosky's family, " they could use comfort more than he could"   (seriously WTF)

 

Here is the Quinn/Kurt dialogue:

 

The Kurt confesseses he went to the God club because he felt responsible, because he refused to pick up any of Karofsky's calls, and if he had answered "any of those stupid calls.." while he breaks down

 

Now of course Kurt was insensitive to minimize what Quinn went through, but people forget he was respnding to her first COMPARING herself to Karofsky, saying that she never got down to suicide.  She was the one drawing her own experience and smugly saying she never got to that point. 

 

So Kurt wasn't wrong, she couldn't get why Karofsky attempted suicide.  The despair he felt.

 

Quinn than projected that Kurt was comparing them, and even then, said, she still couldn't understand why anyone would try to kill themselves.

 

I mean fair enough, but she was being in her own way IMO as judgmental if not worse than what Kurt was in that scene.  Yet alot of people overlook that completely.  It's not as if Quinn's experiences had made her any more compassionate or understanding Is what I'm saying.

 

The reason I think people were forgiving of Quinn's part in this situation is because the writers had someone check her. Quinn was being judgmental and didn't show much compassion for Karofsky and the writers made sure that there was a character there to check her and make sure the audience knows what she said was wrong.  The writers didn't just make Quinn say something that was wrong and let it slide, the actually called it out.

 

But with Kurt, the writers didn't do that. They acted like Kurt was right and did nothing wrong. This is why people called Kurt out and not Quinn. This is why people had a problem with Kurt in that scene and not Quinn.

[jaytee1812]

When they finally got done with making Quinn crazy it became Tina's turn. They never got tired of making some girl or another dive off the deep end.

My head canon says Tina never got over her break up with Mike that why she went a little crazy. My head canon says Mike never got over either that's why he used every excuse to come back.

[phoenixrising]

It all comes down to shitty writing.

The writers try to make a point, but then shoot way over it by making it too obvious and/or using a sledgehammer to drill home their newest PSA.

So instead of the audience seeing what the writers want them to see in a scene like this the audience sees the imbalance, the bias, and the sympathy being artificially and contrivedly skewed to one character, while the actual message gets lost as viewers focus on the unfairness of it all.

 

And in the process of delivering their message the writers also often waltz over characters' feelings because they don't matter as long as the message gets delivered. The character putting up a (weak) protest against the message, or them getting 'schooled' by the character who delivers the message, basically are only props (and tbf: often the character who delivers the message is no more than a prop too, a mouthpiece), and they are usually picked by the writers at random without really looking at their canon experiences or characterisation.

 

 

I always had the feeling RIB hated Quinn, and were looking down on her experiences because the pregnancy was self-inflicted, while ignoring how she suffered.

 

Yes to all of this. 

 

Even though there are things I do like about Kurt, and I think Chris Colfer is awesome, that conversation between him and Quinn made me really resent the character. And I think most of my liking for Quinn, ironically for Glee, is stuff like this, where they obviously have another character make her seem way worse and more deserving of hate than she is (I'd also include Finn during the wheelchair fiasco--she wasn't totally comfortable walking yet, and also Will when he yelled at her over his stupid glee club when she was clearly having a break-down during her skank phase). And generally, I tend to like the supposedly less morally superior characters (mainly Santana) because Glee doesn't try to tell me they're better or more deserving than they are. 

 

I think it was really at this time, I started to cringe whenever gay issues on Glee came up, because they're always treated more seriously than anyone else's pain. As I'm saying this, keep in mind I am part of the LGBT community. When the people they're supposedly speaking to are finding it awful, that's a problem (although I'm a woman, so maybe I don't count).

[caracas1914]

The writers took turns making different characters the moral mouthpiece in storylines.

Personally what grated the most for me was when they would do this with Coach Sue, she makes some sage statement and the very next episode she's back to her dip shit crazy ways intent on destroying New Directions.

[dizzyizzy01]

The problem was turning what was supposed to be a dark comedy into the occasional PSA. You can't play some issues straight and others as a joke. It just doesn't work very well. Especially when most of the issues that were focused on the girls were generally ignored or played for laughs.

[jaytee1812]

The writers took turns making different characters the moral mouthpiece in storylines.

Personally what grated the most for me was when they would do this with Coach Sue, she makes some sage statement and the very next episode she's back to her dip shit crazy ways intent on destroying New Directions.

The PSA in Choke was probably the most horrifying for that. I mean Sue lecturing anyone on violence was bad enough but they thought the GIRLS needed a lecture on domestic violence? Really? JFC. The group most likely to suffer from it. It goes back to their white boy hero complex because none of these men would ever do something like that.

[fakeempress]

The writers took turns making different characters the moral mouthpiece in storylines.

Personally what grated the most for me was when they would do this with Coach Sue, she makes some sage statement and the very next episode she's back to her dip shit crazy ways intent on destroying New Directions.

I always detested how Mike in particular was made a mouthpiece for Rachel Berry=special snowflake in Props. And that after Tina was so supportive of his dreams in Asian F.

Edited January 4, 2015 by fakeempress