All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[jaytee1812]

Okay, I give in, after 12 hours of being lectured, you are all right. They were all replacements.

In at least three cases they're still better though.

[Sara2009]

Will has always been very flawed, but to me he was at least interesting and sympathetic in the front 13, I think in many ways he was an underdog back then too. I don't expect anyone else to agree, though.

[ComfySweater]

I don't think you're alone. I never had much sympathy for Will either. He was always creepy, manipulative and too interested in rapping. I always thought Emma could do better, and I never got why she left Uncle Jesse. That was a good call. Lock that down and ride it into the sunset. 

[Ceeg]

From the episode thread:
 

 

 

I don't think RM viewed straight white guys as qualified for anything they wanted to do. I would say it was quite opposite since the straight white guys were always the ones who didn't either make it in NY and/or didn't feel like they fit there. Every other demo group had the talent and/or temperament to thrive in the NY performing arts scene but straight white guys really only fit in Lima. Good enough to teach but never good enough to do.

 

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. For one, there's Artie, who appears to be a reasonably successful director, and he's a straight white guy. For another, Rachel, Kurt, and Blaine all seem thriving in the NY performing arts scene, but who else? Mercedes has been all over the place, not just NY. Santana booked a commercial and was Rachel's understudy for an episode, but that's it. She decided she was miserable and went on a year-long lesbian vacation. Then she got married and went back to school, possibly dropping her obsession with being a "star". Who knows wtf Brittany is doing. Quinn is at Yale in college. Tina never went to New York, as far as we know. 

 

Sam could have "thrived" in New York if he wanted to, but that wasn't the life for him. It's not like he went to New York and was a failure and so he had to come home with his tail between his legs. Teaching wasn't a fall-back.

[camussie]

I should have said straight able bodied white guys. As for Sam I specifically said talent and/or temperament.  It seems in RM's mind straight able bodied white males simply didn't fit in NY - a place that the show sold as the "promised land" from day 1.  Rachel, Kurt, Artie, Mercedes, Santana, and Blaine all seemed happy and confident and found some success there.   Sam found success there but decided he just didn't fit in there.  Will never found success.  Finn neither found success nor fit in.  Even those who didn't end up in in New York (Quinn, Tina) ended up elsewhere and/or eventually made it to New York (Brittany).

 

The three straight white able bodied lead males - Will, Finn, and Sam either never made it there and/or decided that  Lima was where they belonged.  In the end for all of the claims that RM elevated straight white able bodied males on this show (he did at times) they were the one group of characters that were treated as interchangeable.  Finn was slotted in Will's place in season 4 and Sam in Finn's this last season and for his future.  For that matter the trend of 2.0's started all the way back in season 2 when they brought Sam on as blonder Finn.  

Edited March 25, 2015 by camussie

[fakeempress]

 

Sam could have "thrived" in New York if he wanted to, but that wasn't the life for him. It's not like he went to New York and was a failure and so he had to come home with his tail between his legs. Teaching wasn't a fall-back.

I agree. Sam goes to NYC and gets modelling contracts and his face (and more) on a bus within months. He is disenchanted with the biz and decides big city isn't for him - he gets assistant coach position at MKH, and even replaces Beiste while he is getting the surgery. There is a choir director vacancy and the football team is no more, so he becomes the Glee Club director, qualifications be damned. There is nothing he can't do, seems like, caracas called him a special snowflake in the other thread. It was very different with Finn. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by fakeempress

[Ceeg]

 

The three straight white able bodied lead males - Will, Finn, and Sam either never made it there and/or decided that  Lima was where they belonged and the traits that those three had in common were straight, white, and able bodied.

I think that's less about RM thinking that straight white guys don't belong in New York, and more about RM needed to fill a hole that he needed. Will got less to do, Finn became the new Will, Sam became the new Finn. Finn died, so Sam became the new Will. 

 

Also, you specifically said:

 

Good enough to teach but never good enough to do.

Which isn't the case with Sam, and I'm not sure it was the case with Finn and Will either. Will got offered a role on Broadway (right?) and stayed in Lima. Finn could have done more too, I think, but he decided teaching was his passion.

 

Again, I don't think that's because RM think straight white guys can't do anything. It's because these writers can't differentiate between archetypes and specific characters. It's the reason we all bitch about the noobies. RM thought Marley would be interchangeable with Rachel, Kitty with Quinn/Santana, Ryder with Finn, Jake with Puck, etc.

[caracas1914]

I think it was more Ryan needed an anchor in Lima/McKinley rather than make a specific point about White Guys. It was more he needed them as the leaders at McKinley rather than to highlight some inherent limitations IMO they all posses.

So they were all pulled back to Mckinley to service that anchor.

My only issue is that Will and Finn made sense as teachers, Sam did not.

Edited March 25, 2015 by caracas1914

[Snow Apple]

Speaking of white male characters, it bugged me that Rachel commented about her and Blaine's "vaguely Eurasian looking" babies but that was never mentioned again. So Blaine became younger and a full white guy. I think that's why he changed so much from the season two dapper confidant Dalton man who knew how to dress and style his hair. He's a completely different person named Blaine and the real Blaine is locked in Dalton's basement. He finally set the fire so they can find him.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Snow Apple

[truthaboutluv]

He's a completely different person named Blaine and the real Blaine is locked in Dalton's basement. He finally set the fire so they can find him.

 

 

lol, this is officially my head canon from now on.

[camussie]

Finn could have done more too, I think, but he decided teaching was his passion.

 

 

Where was it ever written that Finn could have done more?  Everything else he tried blew up in his face.  Don't get me wrong I thought teaching was a great fit for him but it seemed to be the only thing that fit.  Meanwhile it seems that anybody who needs some down time to pull their life together or get back together with their estranged other half, or happens to be the last straight white able bodied guy standing will be an great coach just because.  At least that is one of my takeaways from this past season and how the show ended.  

 

This past season Rachel, Kurt, and Blaine needed some time to pull their lives together so they became coaches at McKinley and Dalton.  So far so good because that is what Finn did a couple of years prior.  From there it diverges. We saw Finn take the time to get to know some of the new kids (exception being Kitty and to a lesser degree Jake) showing that he really had a talent for connecting to his students.  Meanwhile more than once we were told that Rachel and Kurt never really got to know the kids at all.  Yet at the end Kurt is patting himself and Rachel on the back for being inspirations to those kids with Will backing that up.  As for how they were inspirations?  Because they are just such talented performers that gracing those kids with their mere presence is an inspiration? At least that is my best guess.  

 

Now to be fair, in the end with Rachel dedicating her Tony to Will, Glee did say that teachers are just as special as those who make it on stage.  Unfortunately that was a "tell moment" that was not backed up by 6 seasons of "show moments" where teaching was mostly treated as a fallback profession for those have no other options at the moment and/or something anybody can do well (See Sam's endgame)

 

I think it was more Ryan needed an anchor in Lima/McKinley rather than make a specific point about White Guys. It was more he needed them as the leaders at McKinley rather than to highlight some inherent limitations IMO they all posses.

 

 

I agree with this but it is telling to me that he never considered keeping anybody but the straight white able bodied males in Lima.  It was like he decided that is the only place they belonged.  The world was the limit for everybody else while Lima was the limit for that particular group.  

Edited March 25, 2015 by camussie

[Ceeg]

Oh i agree with this but it is telling to me that he never considered keeping anybody but the straight white able bodied males in Lima.  It was like he decided that is the only place they belonged.  

 

Yeah, I just don't see it that way. If Finn hadn't died, I think Sam would probably still be in New York with his junk on the side of a bus. But because Finn died, there was a void in the Lima narrative. RIB aren't creative enough to have that void filled by anyone other than their Finn 2.0. So, they had Sam move back to Lima because NY just wasn't a fit for him. But, if Finn was still around, I don't think both Finn and Sam would still be in Lima teaching high school show choirs.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ceeg

[indeed]

Although, at the end, there were plenty of show choirs to coach!

[camussie]

But even with that it says one white straight able bodied male is just as good as another - something that flies in the face of Glee's supposed message of everyone is special in their own way.  Also, if Finn had lived, we would have still gotten that message because Finn would have been slotted in Will's place (and already was for a few episodes).  

 

Sure other characters had their 2.0's in season 4 and 5 but that idea was finally abandoned and each character was given a unique ending.  It never was that way for the white straight able bodied male.  First Finn was going to get Will's ending (teaching in Lima) and then Sam Finn's (teaching in Lima).  For that matter the idea of a 2.0 for the white straight able-bodied males started way back in S2 with Sam's introduction, long before the others got "replacements."  All of that tells me that RM viewed that particular archetype as one that any actor/character could easily fit into as long as they fit the high level criteria.   

Edited March 25, 2015 by camussie

[Ceeg]

Sure other characters had their 2.0's in season 4 and 5 but that idea was finally abandoned and each character was given a unique ending.  

 

I don't think we ever got endings for Marley, Jake, Ryder, and Kitty. For all we know, Kitty went to Yale, Marley starred in Funny Girl: The Sequel, Jake joined the Air Force, and Ryder is teaching the Trouble Tones.

 

The only reason we got to see Sam's ending all the way through is because he was a contracted cast member seasons 4-6. The others were essentially fired.

[fakeempress]

Marley was into songwriting and was encouraged by Mercedes in City of Angels. Seeing as both Rachel and Marley had their original songs sung by ND at competitions, I'd say some type of a Funny Girl is in her future alright. 

[Snow Apple]

There's an actual sequel called Funny Lady. It's a movie but it's the current trend to bring films to stage, isn't it? Perfect for Rachel 2.0

[caracas1914]

Two  white straight guys who had an ambition of a career in performing arts were Jesse St. James and NYADA;'s Brody.  Both non regulars naturally.  The other thing about Glee is I don't think they ever  showed a straight male with a burning ambition to be the spotlight  of ND or have a solo.  Forget white, any straight male of New Directions.

 

Even in Season 6 it was Warbler Jane who was fighting to get a solo.  It's the women and gays (Kurt, Blaine, Unique) who wanted to be featured  and perform, while the straight males are sort all  above that.   Arite was a bit different, but his physical condition had the show make some gross assumptions about him, ie he was never expected to be a genuine soloist.  (NOT that I agree, but it was there).

 

The straight males were "the team players" the ones who sacrificed for the good of Glee, and thus could also be the leaders.

Edited March 25, 2015 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

Marley was into songwriting and was encouraged by Mercedes in City of Angels. Seeing as both Rachel and Marley had their original songs sung by ND at competitions, I'd say some type of a Funny Girl is in her future alright.

My head canon is Marley got scunnered of music and performing when she was force out of McKinley. She knuckled down and by 2020 is at med school and was too busy to return to Lima.

[LydiaMoon1]

If Finn hadn't died, I think Sam would probably still be in New York with his junk on the side of a bus. But because Finn died, there was a void in the Lima narrative. RIB aren't creative enough to have that void filled by anyone other than their Finn 2.0. So, they had Sam move back to Lima because NY just wasn't a fit for him. But, if Finn was still around, I don't think both Finn and Sam would still be in Lima teaching high school show choirs.

The only reason Sam landed back in Lima was because RM needed the last remaining straight-white able-bodied male left in the regular cast back there so that he could get his dream ending of Rachel coming back to say "I’m home!”. With Finn gone, they went with Sam, but that pairing fizzled so badly they had to abandon the dream altogether. Still, this was Glee.  There always had to be a white male in Lima to be the center of the universe.

 

But even with that it says one white straight able bodied male is just as good as another - something that flies in the face of Glee's supposed message of everyone is special in their own way.

 

Who on Glee not named Rachel got treated as being more special than the great, white males (straight, gay, or able-bodied)?  I mean, between the hero edits and the attention given to their issues, you'd have to reach a looooong way to make the case for the poor, downtrodden white male on this show.

Edited March 25, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[camussie]

Even in Season 6 it was Warbler Jane who was fighting to get a solo.  It's the women and gays (Kurt, Blaine, Unique) who wanted to be featured  and perform, while the straight males are sort all  above that.

 

 

Or they were treated as not have what it takes to be soloists (which for the most part they didn't until Roderick this season). My issue isn't that I thought the white straight males should have succeeded  in the performing arts like Rachel, Blaine, Kurt, Mercedes, or Artie.  It is that, I feel more than any other group, on the show RM treated that particular demographic as interchangeable - something that I felt started back in season 2.  That any white straight guy will do.  In addition I felt like he tended to write that particular demo as an avatar for those unenlightened folks in "flyover" country who, not only needed to be enlightened through his heavy handed PSAs, but who also would never have what it takes to truly thrive and be happy on the clearly superior coasts.  

 

That is my point. For the many hero edits that particular demo got (and they did) there was also the "one straight white able bodied guy is as good as another" and "hey we want to do a PSA time to drag out the straight white guy to be the catalyst" writing.   

 

The only reason Sam landed back in Lima was because RM needed the last remaining straight-white able-bodied male left in the regular cast back there so that he could get his dream ending of Rachel coming back to say "I’m home!”. With Finn gone, they went with Sam, but that pairing fizzled so badly they had to abandon the dream altogether.

 

 

i really don't think they ever planned on Rachel returning to Sam with "I'm Home."  They didn't need Rachel to return to Lima because she spent the entire season there. Also, although they took it entirely too far with Mercedes cheerleading and Sam being at the center of Rachel's high school memory wall, they said from the beginning Sam was a transitional relationship.  She may not have ended up with Jesse if Groff was not available but I have no doubts she wasn't going to end up with Sam back in Lima.

 

Who on Glee not named Rachel got treated as being more special than the great, white males (straight, gay, or able-bodied)?I mean, seriously. You have to reach a looooong way to make the case for the poor, downtrodden white male on this show.

 

 

Never said they were downtrodden.  Said they were treated as interchangeable and they were whereas, I don't recall them every writing someone as interchangeable for Kurt or Blaine.  Mercedes had Unique as her "replacement" but they abandoned that after the newbies 1.0 were let go.  

Edited March 25, 2015 by camussie

[caracas1914]

For the many hero edits that particular demo got (and they did) there was also the "one straight white able bodied guy is as good as another" and "hey we want to do a PSA time to drag out the straight white guy to be the catalyst" writing.

 

I don't disagree, but rather I think RIB thought it was an inherent  "quality" that the straight males on the show possessed, the non competitive non "selfish"streak that the gays/women had with their self centered need to be featured.

 

Take someone like Tina, after that godawful school shooting episode was concluding ,  of all the characters her take  away was to  not compete or bitch about solos.

Seriously.

[red texta]

The reason, I beleive, why straight guys got hauled out and made to be taught a lesson, is because they are the audience stand in, the "Everyman" people are meant to be able to relate to. In TV and in Hollywood the default person is straight, white and male and they can fit into any role the narrative requires. The others are, well, "other", not quite as fully human and they have to stick to their lanes.

[camussie]

And RM buying into those stereotypes is where I think he undercut his own PSAs.  It was annoying that "others" were seen to be above being  taught a lesson (even when they clearly needed one - see Brittany and Rachel both referring to Unique and Mercedes as being hard to tell apart or Kurt and his heinous comments about bisexuals or what he said to Quinn about not knowing pain).  It was also annoying that only certain kinds of bullying were treated as serious (bullying towards Kurt) while others weren't (Puck locked in a port-a-potty for 24 hours).  

[caracas1914]

Yet the white male lectures  the women and gives out the lesson , more often that not. 

 

I can't recall off hand when a woman lectured a male in the show for a big learning epiphany.  The closest I could think of was when in Season 3 Unique tells Kurt that  he can't related to her, because she thinks of herself as a woman.

 

Hell even POC Mike had to lecture Tina.

Edited March 25, 2015 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

Marley and the rest of ND lectured Jake about singing a Bobby Brown song.

From a choir who had no problem with songs by R Kelly , the Rolling Stones or Robin Thicke.

[Sara2009]

Yet the white male lectures the women and gives out the lesson , more often that not.

I can't recall off hand when a woman lectured a

male in the show for a big learning epiphany.

The closest I could think of was when in

Season 3 Unique tells Kurt that he can't related

to her, because she thinks of herself as a

woman.

Hell even POC Mike had to lecture Tina.

I don't know if I'd call them lectures, but Emma

is often the advice giver in her relationship with

Will. The two of them kind of take turns in that role.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Sara2009

[jaytee1812]

I don't know if I'd call them lectures, but Emma

is often the advice giver in her relationship with

Will. The two of them kind of take turns in that role.

They have Will lecturing her a lot.

[caracas1914]

Yea, despite Emma being his bouncing board it still came across that she was the one who needed Will's  guidance and help to be "cured".

 

Though I have to confess the last scene where her compulsion came up regarding the baby I actually liked, as in it was always going to be there but it was something as a couple they could handle.

[AndySmith]

For that matter the idea of a 2.0 for the white straight able-bodied males started way back in S2 with Sam's introduction,

 

Funny enough, Sam was originally meant to be a love interest for Kurt.

[Sara2009]

They have Will lecturing her a lot.

Only in the first couple seasons IMO. That mostly stopped after they got engaged.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Sara2009

[Higgs]

In the pilot, Emma taught Will how he ought to live his life. When Kurt came to Rachel for help in choosing a song for his Warblers audition, she taught him how to find it and, by extension, how, to find himself. As far as I can recall, and it isn't much these days with regard to Glee, those were the two most important lectures ever given on the show.

[dizzyizzy01]

Basically, only bullying towards LGBTQ kids was treated seriously.  All other bullying was treated as a joke.  The show also had a lot of guys, particularly Sam/Finn, being the "voice of reason" with Rachel/Tina/others.  I mean you have idiot boy Sam trying to advise Rachel on school vs. Broadway.

 

I think a lot of the issues just stems from a lack of diversity in the writer's room.  No matter how well intentioned some of the stories may have been (e.g.,  Santana's struggling to come out, adoption/surrogate storylines), they came out really poorly because they didn't have the right perspectives being voiced when the stories were being written.  Also, the writers they hired just suck, but that's another topic.  Nobody had enough talent in the room to properly balance the tone of this show.  Shifting back and forth from serious PSA to comedic satire didn't work at all.

[caracas1914]

I actually thought Burt accepting Kurt for who he was , despite his own bias and background, was the most  important "lecture" the show ever gave.  Burt was far from perfect, and he gave bad advice as often as he gave good, but the underlying message of common sense acceptance and love was there in the Burt/Kurt scenes.  That is why even now when the show winded down so many go back to their scenes as far as the genuine  emotional takeaway from Glee.

[jaytee1812]

 I think a lot of the issues just stems from a lack of diversity in the writer's room.  No matter how well intentioned some of the stories may have been (e.g.,  Santana's struggling to come out, adoption/surrogate storylines), they came out really poorly because they didn't have the right perspectives being voiced when the stories were being written.  Also, the writers they hired just suck, but that's another topic.  Nobody had enough talent in the room to properly balance the tone of this show.  Shifting back and forth from serious PSA to comedic satire didn't work at all.

I think that some writers, Russell T Davies springs to mind, are very good at writing people of races, gender or sexual orientation that they are not. The team that write Glee are not.

I made a comment in another thread that every time Brittany and Santana mention sex it feels likes it's written by a straight man. The same goes for anything the show did in regards to race, whether it was a passing comment or a serious issues it just felt like it was written by white people, anything in regards to gender felt like it was written not just by men. Now I say this not knowing the make up of the writers room, so I may be well off, but I'm guessing apart from Ryan Murphy it's straight white men.

[dizzyizzy01]

I think that some writers, Russell T Davies springs to mind, are very good at writing people of races, gender or sexual orientation that they are not. The team that write Glee are not.

I made a comment in another thread that every time Brittany and Santana mention sex it feels likes it's written by a straight man. The same goes for anything the show did in regards to race, whether it was a passing comment or a serious issues it just felt like it was written by white people, anything in regards to gender felt like it was written not just by men. Now I say this not knowing the make up of the writers room, so I may be well off, but I'm guessing apart from Ryan Murphy it's straight white men.

 

There were two women on the staff, including one lesbian, but they both left after S3. There was generally very very little diversity in the writer's room.

[Ceeg]

I think a lot of the issues just stems from a lack of diversity in the writer's room.  No matter how well intentioned some of the stories may have been (e.g.,  Santana's struggling to come out, adoption/surrogate storylines), they came out really poorly because they didn't have the right perspectives being voiced when the stories were being written.  Also, the writers they hired just suck, but that's another topic.  Nobody had enough talent in the room to properly balance the tone of this show.  Shifting back and forth from serious PSA to comedic satire didn't work at all.

 

I think the Glee staff being comprised of various straight and gay white men is a huge influence on the way they write the show. And I think that by and large, the writers the show has now are absolutely terrible. But, I also think that some of the (former) writers that might have had talent but have/had no power are kind of fucked.

 

I think Ali Adler is a decent writer with a different perspective. She's a gay woman and she's had success on other shows. But when she came in she had to write that Pot-o-Gold episode, and it wasn't even her idea. Brittany thinking Rory was a leprechaun was all Ian. But, I'm guessing that they told Ali to write that episode and gave her an outline to work with and that was that. How the hell is anyone supposed to write a decent plotline when it's based on a character thinking another character is a leprechaun granting her wishes? They should have let her write the coming out episode, and actually gotten advice from her and listened to what she had to say and what her perspective was. Instead, they gave IKAG to a straight, white, first-time writer/former coffee boy. It literally makes no sense. They let Ali write one scene in IKAG, the one where Santana comes out to her grandmother, and that was the only scene in that godforsaken episode that was actually good.

 

Same for Marti Noxon. I know Marti gets a ton of crap from various fandoms because of the later season of Buffy, but once upon a time, she was a good writer. And she might still be. I think she did a really good job on Choke, especially with writing for Rachel's voice. That opening montage of Rachel getting ready was vintage season 1 Glee. But, what was Marti supposed to do in a writer's room where Ryan Murphy has all the power? Not much. Especially if he comes in and says, Okay this is your episode and I want you to write Beiste in an abusive relationship. 

 

How can someone with talent even show they have talent when they have to work under those conditions?

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ceeg

[caracas1914]

in a writer's room where Ryan Murphy has all the power? Not much. Especially if he comes in and says, Okay this is your episode and I want you to write Beiste in an abusive relationship.

 

How can someone with talent even show they have talent when they have to work under those conditions?

 

 

Yup, Ryan had all the power so it contined as his "vision".  Who can forget and it comes up over and over because it explains so much Ryan going into the writing room and saying he was inspired by the color Orange and the number "At the Ballet" from "A Chorus Line"?

 

Season 3 was a disaster in part because you had even more writers having to service his whims , so that narrative flow, already a joke, got even worse.

[dizzyizzy01]

I think the Glee staff being comprised of various straight and gay white men is a huge influence on the way they write the show. And I think that by and large, the writers the show has now are absolutely terrible. But, I also think that some of the (former) writers that might have had talent but have/had no power are kind of fucked.

 

I think Ali Adler is a decent writer with a different perspective. She's a gay woman and she's had success on other shows. But when she came in she had to write that Pot-o-Gold episode, and it wasn't even her idea. Brittany thinking Rory was a leprechaun was all Ian. But, I'm guessing that they told Ali to write that episode and gave her an outline to work with and that was that. How the hell is anyone supposed to write a decent plotline when it's based on a character thinking another character is a leprechaun granting her wishes? They should have let her write the coming out episode, and actually gotten advice from her and listened to what she had to say and what her perspective was. Instead, they gave IKAG to a straight, white, first-time writer/former coffee boy. It literally makes no sense. They let Ali write one scene in IKAG, the one where Santana comes out to her grandmother, and that was the only scene in that godforsaken episode that was actually good.

 

Same for Marti Noxon. I know Marti gets a ton of crap from various fandoms because of the later season of Buffy, but once upon a time, she was a good writer. And she might still be. I think she did a really good job on Choke, especially with writing for Rachel's voice. That opening montage of Rachel getting ready was vintage season 1 Glee. But, what was Marti supposed to do in a writer's room where Ryan Murphy has all the power? Not much. Especially if he comes in and says, Okay this is your episode and I want you to write Beiste in an abusive relationship. 

I suspected that was why Marti left after only a year.  But I will never forget the crap she did to BTVS!  LOL

 

With Ali, I dunno, she went to the New Normal with Ryan and that show was also pretty terrible.  She's had success but I don't think she's that great of a writer.  She's been involved in some pretty good shows though.  I'm curious to see what she does with Supergirl.

[Ceeg]

With Ali, I dunno, she went to the New Normal with Ryan and that show was also pretty terrible.  She's had success but I don't think she's that great of a writer.  She's been involved in some pretty good shows though.  I'm curious to see what she does with Supergirl.

I thought Heart and Nationals were both pretty solid episodes. Heart might have been my favorite one from season 3, and not just because of the Brittana and no Blaine. And Nationals is on up there too.

[dizzyizzy01]

I thought Heart and Nationals were both pretty solid episodes. Heart might have been my favorite one from season 3, and not just because of the Brittana and no Blaine. And Nationals is on up there too.

That's true, Heart was probably one of my favorites that season.  I thought Nationals was kind of boring, but not bad.  It's probably a little unfair, but I guess I had higher expectations when they were bringing in the new writing team, especially someone with a producer credit on the show.  

 

Also, I just really hated Pot O Gold, but I suppose that was out of her control.  Also the New Normal was just so so terrible and not funny.

[jaytee1812]

I thought Heart and Nationals were both pretty solid episodes. Heart might have been my favorite one from season 3, and not just because of the Brittana and no Blaine. And Nationals is on up there too.

Heart is a lovely episode, nothing major just lots of nice romance. To be fair, that's rare for Glee.

Also contains L-O-V-E which is one of my favourite songs.

[red texta]

Hiring some more women and POC for the writers room and letting them write or consult on plots and scenes that were relevant to their experience wouldn't have guaranteed an improvement in the writing but it might have avoided some of Glee's particular tone deafness.

[dizzyizzy01]

Hiring some more women and POC for the writers room and letting them write or consult on plots and scenes that were relevant to their experience wouldn't have guaranteed an improvement in the writing but it might have avoided some of Glee's particular tone deafness.

Pretty much.  I mean they still would have lacked a showrunner with a cohesive vision for the show, but I think it would have helped with some of the stuff that went wrong.  Because in my experience, I've seen that for most, there's not an intent to come off as offensive, but people can have a tendency to say some dumb stuff.

[Ceeg]

I'm not sure that the power dynamic of the Glee writers' room would have allowed for any woman or POC to express their opinion about something being offensive, though. I imagine it's something similar to Aaron Sorkin shows. A few months ago, Newsroom made the news because of a rape scene and how it was handled on the show, and one of the female writers expressed on twitter that she didn't agree with how it was depicted on the show and that it was problematic. She said she was kicked out of the writers room for expressing those opinions.

 

So, even if Ryan hired a team of lesbians and racial minorities, I don't think much would change.

[red texta]

Yes, the hiring is only part of it. The other part is actually listening to them and giving them input into the relevant stories.

[dizzyizzy01]

It's not some automatic salvo, but my point is to even get to the situation where you can listen/consider diverse opinions at the table you have to make the first step of inviting them to the table.  Glee, and really the entertainment industry in general, isn't very good at that.  

[tab19]

To be "fair" to Glee, the problem with not enough women/minorities as writers is certainly not limited to that show.  Although some shows do manage to be good anyway.

 

Shifting back and forth from serious PSA to comedic satire didn't work at all.

This was one of my biggest problems with the show.  I always felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too by being both funny and sending Serious Messages - and they could NOT find the right balance.  One example that for some reason sprang to mind was the dodgeball game between New Directions and the Troubletones in Season 3.  They have this great song montage - obviously intended to be fun and NOT taken seriously, since everyone is playing it for fun.  They even show three or four of the New Directions kids getting dodgeballs to the face in what are obviously intended to be funny close-ups.  But then AS the song ends, they whiplash to the scene of the four Troubletones girls throwing their balls at Rory and suddenly Kurt is yelling that he's bleeding and it's now AWFUL that they did that.  But not awful that we saw all those early close-ups of kids getting nailed in the face?  The tonal shifts were just too abrupt and poorly handled and really hurt the show.

[Myrna123]

Yes, the hiring is only part of it. The other part is actually listening to them and giving them input into the relevant stories.

I think this is the problem with Glee.  My sense is that neither Murphy nor Falchuk ever had an idea that wasn't the most brilliant, the most revolutionary, the most game-changing amazing idea in the history of ideas, and for whatever the reason the atmosphere was one that prompted no questioning of their genius.  Otherwise you would think that the actors, writers, producers, association producers, assistants, or someone, somewhere would have pointed out some of the eleventy billion times RIB got it entirely, utterly, unbelievably wrong.  Instead Murphy and Falchuk just keep getting more shows and more $$$$.  Why would they stop to consider they might not be the geniuses they think they are?

[dizzyizzy01]

To be "fair" to Glee, the problem with not enough women/minorities as writers is certainly not limited to that show.  Although some shows do manage to be good anyway.

 

Oh yea.  Totally not isolated to Glee, and it's a general problem in the industry.  The writers' room on this show just needed that perspective way more.

 

Easier said than done.  I know.

Edited March 25, 2015 by dizzyizzy01