All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[Cranberry]

If someone has an idea for a snappier title, go ahead and suggest it!

This is the place to discuss Glee overall (themes, arcs, character dynamics, whatever), so once an episode has aired, its content is no longer considered a spoiler. Please spoiler-tag any info about upcoming story lines.

[caracas1914]

I think the show is going to center around Rachel again based in New York, good or bad.   We're not in McKinley, anymore.

[TheGourmez]

Centering around Rachel is fine. I'm just glad it won't be centering around Rachel going "home" to Finn after her one Broadway show. Though to be fair, the showrunners may have intended that planned final scene to be many years in the future. But probably not more than a decade, and I don't think that would have been long enough for Rachel's ambitions int NYC. Nor did I want to see Finn settle in Lima for all-time. Find his passion while there? Sure. But stay there? Nope. He wanted out.

[caracas1914]

The whole Rachel returning to Finn/ Lima teaching at McKinley High had a bad aftertaste in that it implied they weren't together and yet led incomplete lives until they had reunited.  WTF?

The reality would have been as a teacher Finn could have taught in New York while Rachel was pounding auditions in the great White Way.  If their love as "soul mates" was so great you would think they would have worked it out somehow, as opposed to Rachel eschewing Broadway because she belongs in Lima.    Hell by then the Berry Dads would have retired to Florida  so Lima wasn't even her home anymore.

Edited April 3, 2014 by caracas1914

[Myrna123]

I can't believe there is not one woman in Ryan Murphy's entire orbit of human contact that doesn't have the guts to tell him that ending is unforgivable.

You think Kathy Bates or Jessica Lange or Angela Basset would have one-and-done their careers for a significant other?  I'm not saying women don't take time away to have/raise kids, but to imply that Rachel would be done with show biz is just so, so stupid unless in the second to last episode a time machine is invented, and Rachel is sent back to 1950.  You get trapped in Pleasantville, I guess you just gotta go with it.

[Higgs]

..to imply that Rachel would be done with show biz..

Rachel going "home" need not imply any such thing. There's a lot more to show biz than Broadway. Streisand left Broadway never to return, and Lea has tried to do the same. Compared to movies/TV/recordings/concerts, which can be done while maintaining a main domicile in Lima, OH, or anywhere for that matter, it's much harder work for a lot less fame and fortune. Even Broadway musicals, in the form of limited-run shows, would be possible.

It was during the kerfuffle following the reveal of the Finchel endgame in The Quarterback that I was amused to encounter the following dialog;

"I'm just a schoolmaster"

"And I just want to be a schoolmaster's wife."

It occurs in a movie that I'd never seen nor even heard of before. The first line was spoken by Peter O'Toole, the second by PETULA CLARK. She plays a famous star of the London musical stage, living a hedonistic life, and pursued by rich and handsome men. She gives it all up to marry a homely Latin teacher at a private boys' school out in the country.

The movie is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodbye,_Mr._Chips_(1969_film)

Oh, and there's singing.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Higgs

[Higgs]

Nor did I want to see Finn settle in Lima for all-time. Find his passion while there? Sure. But stay there? Nope. He wanted out.

Actually, by the end, I don't believe Finn did want out of Lima. Nor should he have, if we can learn anything from this:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/unambitious-loser-with-happy-fulfilling-life-still,33233/

Edited April 4, 2014 by Higgs

[caracas1914]

Oh God, the musical version of "Good Bye, Mr. chips"? That chestnut was dated when it was released in 1969, though Petula Clark was a gem in it.

Yea, the Petula Clark character in the 1920's gives up her career , though she's hardly a huge star in the movie.

Sure if Rachel morphs into Beyoncé she would settle in Lima.

Not.

Edited April 4, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

Goodbye Mr Chips was corny and outdated in 1939.

I still cring at the thought of Rachel living in Lima even if she travles for roles elsewhere.

She said she was leaving and never coming back. It was more then just where her career took her.   If  Finn was home enough for Rachel than Rachel should have been home enough for Finn.   He could have taught in NY, NJ or Conn.

Edited April 4, 2014 by tom87

[Myrna123]

Nor should he have, if we can learn anything from this:

A satirical newspaper article (taken literally) and a film set in the 1920's does seem like source material Ryan Murphy would draw from so it's not like I'm surprised at his vision for the ending.  I just think it would have stunk.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Myrna123

[Higgs]

She said she was leaving and never coming back.

When a person's life has profoundly changed, so can, and often should, their adolescent purpose. Rachel could not come back to Lima with unfulfilled ambition, but as conquering heroine, why not? Geographically, it's still Ohio, but her psychological state would be entirely different. There would be nothing she couldn't do artistically except the open-ended theatrical runs with which she, as have others, grew understandably disenchanted. She wouldn't want Finn to join her in New York because she wouldn't want to be there herself anymore. It's not as glamorous or exciting as it looks to outsiders.

The reference to the musical Mr. Chips was meant as an amusing sidelight, only. What Petula's character does there is dramatically different from RM's ending (which may have originated no earlier than Fox's denial of the spin-off), because she wanted to give up her entire career and move to a socially isolated milieu where she was likely to go stark raving mad with boredom. (Think 19th century pioneer farm wife, but with nothing useful to do.)

Anyway, it's been fun, but I gotta go. TAXI! TAXI!! HEY!!!

Edited April 4, 2014 by Higgs

[SNeaker]

StarsFallen said:

Yup. Way too late, but I'll watch till the bitter end. There was so much disservice to the cast and characters after season 3. Honestly, my whole thing was that they should have extended the Original Recipes senior year into two seasons-such as what they did this year and last year- so we could have had more time to ease in New People and honestly more time with the people we care about.

But if the show had wanted New York right away, we should have just started there and followed Rachel, Kurt, and/or others. I still think having  Finn and Puck around in NY would have been a good fit. They could have still done problems in the Finchel romance in NY too. But, I don't know. I love that they are in NY now but I do find it's a too little, too late, too bad deal as far as ratings go.

To be honest, I actually think splitting senior year for the originals, while a way, way, WAY better choice than what they ended up doing, still wouldn't have worked very well. The High School setting was dragging them down already in Season 3, and the stories and locations and competition cycle had already grown stale. (Which makes it mind-boggling that they dragged it on for an extra season and a half) And some of the cast -- Mark, yes, but Cory too -- were already looking ridiculous sitting in that High School choir room. I think both the cast and the audience were ready to see these kids grow up and start making their way in the world.

Personally, I would have started Season 4 with a split narrative, but not McKinley/NY, but with a number of original characters spread out in different locations but building towards an eventual reunion in the same place. The fragmentation would be part of the story -- like, these kids are struggling, things are new and weird for them just like it is for us. For instance, you could start with Kurt and Rachel in NY, neither having gotten into NYADA , but both determined to make it in NY anyway, with Kurt going to FIT and Rachel getting the diner job and auditioning for roles. Artie would be there for film school, Blaine in college. Maybe Kurt and Blaine start off living together but getting on each others nerves and eventually breaking up, with Kurt moving out and in with Rachel. Santana would be seen at her college in Louisville, unhappy with cheerleading and classes, her long-distance relationship with Brittany (at MIT? traveling with a dance troupe?) not working out, and she'd quit and head to New York. Or she could head back to Lima first. There she'd find Finn and Puck, struggling with their own lack of direction, dealing with feeling like Lima losers and working at the garage/cleaning pools, but eventually stumbling onto a gig performing at the local college and realizing they should start a band. The two (or three if Santana's with them) of them then head to NY to do so, and Finn once he's there would eventually also find a job working at an inner city school as a glee club director and fighting to get arts programming into schools in poor neighborhoods. Outside the band, Santana could look for TV/movie acting gigs, Puck could get odd jobs as a bartender, taxi driver, whatever. Mercedes would start off in LA struggling with her record company and their expectations, getting dropped, and -- since she knows so many people there already -- going to NY to try for a different sound. Mike, Tina, Sam, and Quinn, plus Will and Sue I guess, could all flit in and out as guest stars.

The point would have been to start fragmented but build to a place where it's all going to come together and the characters will be reunited and re-form their little family with the angle of a new theme of small town kids struggling to make it in the big city. They could have marketed it as a whole new concept and even pointed out that without the glee club, the show will switch to a more traditional musical format. A spinoff of itself.

Edited April 4, 2014 by SNeaker

[caracas1914]

Damn it Sneaker, why didn't you submit your script?  Dare I say it, it would have been "revolutionary".  :)

Completely agree that the High School/competition cycle was getting tired and played out even  by Season 3.   So just changing the cast and recycling  that and then extending that for a year and a half was a staggering display of ineptitude that has to be a  top ten ITUNES list of showrunner idiocy.

Edited April 4, 2014 by caracas1914

[caracas1914]

I have to say, sometimes a line or a scene reminds me suddenly of Cory's absence, so I can just imagine what must it be like for the cast filming even now.

[Coxfires]

SNeaker, you made me loathe S4 even more than I did, you're scenario would have been ace.

[Myrna123]

If there had to be newbies for Season 4, I would have had newbie storylines contrasting with an Original Flavor storyline--like the newbie storyline would have the newbie learning something because of being in Glee and the Original Flavor storyline would have been applying in the real world whatever had been learned in Glee. 

You could have had an ongoing arc with Rachel, Finn and Kurt and then rotate in the others when the story called for it--so you could check in with Quinn at Yale, Santana at college maybe on her way to leaving for NY, Britney where she was, etc. etc. I would have married off Puck to Zizes and given them a kid pretty quick and then--surprise--turns out they're a cute little family unit with Puck playing in a band on the weekends and Zizes playing bouncer/bodyguard to the Lima groupies.

[SNeaker]

No comment on the Zizes thing. Heh.

If they had to have newbies, they should have been Finn's students at the school in NY. Dealing with them as a teacher/leader would have been part of his individual storyline, and all of the characters would have been meeting and interacting with new people. They could have even used some of the same actors. Hell, come to think of it...they could have had Jake. Say, one of the people who started in NYC comes across this talented dancer doing street performance and finds out the kid's name is Puckerman, Two and two together, in his travels from state to state (and woman to woman), Puckerman Sr. had a kid with a woman in NY and abandoned them too. (Makes more sense than them being in Lima and Puck somehow not having a clue even though the kid's name is Puckerman.) Puck finds out and seeks him out when the band goes to NY for a gig. He wants to stay, and so do Finn and Santana. Later it's revealed that they're cutting the arts program at Jake's school due to lack of funding and leadership, and that's how Finn ends up there.

I need to stop.

[Florinaldo]

A multilocation split? That would only have resulted in a very disjointed and more unfocused show.

[bravelittletoaster]

Like Game of Thrones.  Total mess than no one likes.

Of course the writers of that show have talent, so your point may stand.

Edited April 4, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[SNeaker]

I think the reason split narratives work on shows like Game of Thrones and the first season of Heroes is because there is a sense on those shows about building towards something and all of these narratives coming together. Glee had two shows in one with no connection to each other and no sense that it was ever gonna change. Just two, two shows, one with two (later three, ooooooh) characters and one with 1,587 characters. The scenario I was describing would be both temporary (I'd say by midseason/xmas they should all have gotten to New York) and building towards an eventual reunion. I think that would have been more interesting (and, ahem, realistic) than simply plopping everyone in New York to start with, and would have shown the characters struggling and failing at their initial plans.

Aw, SNeaker! I'm glad you are a Puck fan who also has a spot for Finn. I haven't found many of those. Most people who love Puck tend to hate Finn and that always made me sad. I like Puck but I was a big Finn fan.

We-eeeell. I can't lie. I did hate Finn from about halfway through Season 2 onwards. I hated how often he acted like a jerk and the narrative rewarded him for it, I hated Finn/Rachel, and I hated the need for a White Male Savior. That said, I did want to like Finn and had a soft spot for the Season 1 version, I enjoyed his friendship with Puck, and I do think Finn's story in Season 4 of finding his passion genuinely worked (one of the only things about Season 4 that did), which is why I'd transfer it to New York. (And if you notice I keep him close to Puck and his students in this little AU scenario and far from Rachel. Heh.) I was also not writing my own dream dynamic (that would not include Blaine or Brittany -- sorry, blt, I love you, smooches) but taking into account the popularity of certain characters and ships whether I personally liked them or not in order to submit an idea that would genuinely have worked for the show in terms of being somewhat good and holding onto its audience.

Edited April 4, 2014 by SNeaker

[tom87]

I actaully tohought the split was going good the first 4 epsidoes then they went and dropped the ball on NY for 3 or 4 epsidoes.  When they did that it lost all momentum.  Then they totally screw up by exteneding the school year.    

(And if you notice I keep him close to Puck and his students in this little AU scenario and far from Rachel. Heh.)

 

Finn wasn't a mess cause of Rachel though, thier relationship mess up her character more.

[Higgs]

I feel like all of season 2 Finn was a mistake. I have no idea why he was written that way...

Finn.S2 was a high school junior who HAD to be written as flawed in order to provide the dramatic basis for his long-term maturation (and to get some laughs in a show that is in parts supposed to be a farcical comedy). He was treated no worse than anyone else, including "St." Kurt, whose supposed canonization by RM was greatly misperceived.

The fundamental precept of Glee was the choir room. In Friday Night Lights it was the football team, but they managed to change the players more successfully than Glee changed the singers. (The failure was primarily in the stories the newbies were given, not in their talents*.) Glee:NYC was a discordant second genre altogether, and when Rachel got Fanny any semblance of realism demanded a third. Without the clean break of a spin-off, Finn HAD to be geographically separated from Rachel, to establish his independent agency, and HAD to be connected to Glee:Lima via the choir room, in particular, to link the split narratives.

Rachel's success (LESS remarkable than Smash's** Karen's, who had no experience of which I was aware, or Ivy's, who had never been more than a bit player for ten years, who both ended up competing for a Tony as the star of a musical, despite the fact that neither they nor anyone else who appeared on the show could sing as well as "Lea Michele, Lea Michele, say it again and she'll magically appear"; are you still with me? - I just had to get that off my chest; now where was I? Oh yes...) is not meant to be the culmination of her story arc, but a hurdle to be overcome in finding a path to personal fulfillment WITHOUT GIVING UP HER CAREER (necessarily) that would bring the show full circle in an emotionally satisfying denouement.

So now, the biggest question of all with Finn gone, is how the hell they're going to do that. Following the eight-a-week grind of a Broadway run has, by itself, no dramatic potential. No Broadway show could achieve the peaks of a Funny Girl triumph. (Sondheim writes a musical for Rachel with unsimulated on-stage intercourse? No?) No man could equal Finn's "person" in his spiritual connection to Rachel. Help me out here, people, I'm desperate.

*

**http://annoyingactorfriend.com/smash-glee/

Edited April 5, 2014 by Higgs

[caracas1914]

I actaully tohought the split was going good the first 4 epsidoes then they went and dropped the ball on NY for 3 or 4 epsidoes.  When they did that it lost all momentum.  Then they totally screw up by exteneding the school year.

True, it was close to a 50/50 or 60/40 for most of those first 4 episodes.  The problem was that the Noob infestation had to be propped up , and the only way to do that was to give McKinley literally everything , from the Guest starring Originals and practically every song.  It shows how badly the experiment went that in the end the Noobs and the narrative were kicked out of the show in buck naked humiliating fashion.  They literally muted them for the last 5 episodes they were in.

[bravelittletoaster]

Yeah, I also didn't mind the first four episodes.  Then when they broke up all the major ships I assumed it was for the obvious reason that they'd have one half of each ship [save Wemma] in Lima and NY, anchoring the two halves together.  As you would do if you were a showrunner who knew your ass from a hole in the ground.

Alas.

[vb68]

But then leaving NY out for an episode right after all the breakups to watch the newbies get ready for Grease just set the tone for the rest of that season and beyond.

I think the whole idea of breaking all the couples up at once might have sounded good (well  exciting at least) from a showrunning perspective, but the whole execution of it was another matter.  I don't think there was ever a workable plan to deal with the fallout.    It was the worst thing they could ever do to the character of Blaine, and I really don't think any of them realized it, save for Darren himself.   And no, I don't think Blaine has recovered at all.   Even Rachel and Fiinn were all over the place and a complete mess for the rest of the season.

I think they loved the shock value of the breakups, but never thought beyond that. 

[caracas1914]

Well I don't think the relationship of Finchell has ever been anything but a train wreck as far as dynamics. Season 2 Finn returning to Quinn and encouraging her to cheat, anyone?

The bigger problem was that Finchell was always the core couple of Glee, and by putting them in different locales and separated there was no one to replace them as the central couple of the show. The cast was broken up, Hummelberry was reduced to a cameo appearance as the season progressed and quite quickly the Noobs were onscreen more than most of the old cast, including Cory. The secondary supporting characters of Sam, Tina and Brittany were thrust as "leads" with Blaine the central character. An argument could be made that Bram and Blam were now the primary relationships on Glee which isn't a smart idea if they include most of your weaker actors. Naya was MIA for most of the season , Chris had the least amount of screen time ever , and Cory was prepped to be Will 2.0 cheering on ND from the sidelines. Rachel had five minutes in the season 4 finale.

It totally changed in Season 4 who were the leads of the show , disregarding there was good reasons why Lea, Cory, Chris and Naya had been getting more of the SL's prior to that season. The writing on Glee has always had its shortcomings but the chemistry of the cast had somewhat made up for that. Now that last saving grace was wiped out.

So suddenly weaker actors or less charismatic actors had to carry 90% of the show , and since the rest had graduated, there was no respite from New New McKinley.

It was a formula for disaster. So I'm not surprised when the hammer came down , it was basically trying to act as if the McKinley narrative was a bad dream to be ignored and discarded.

[vb68]

Maybe they should have had Blaine wake up sweating and telling Kurt that he just had the worst dream.  :)  Kurt could say something like relax, none of that ever happened.  

I kid, but as an old school Dallas fan,  that would had been very amusing to me.

Edited April 6, 2014 by vb68

[aradia22]

So other than Rachel ending up with Finn, my second choice was always Rachel ending up with Puck (Puckleberry forever!). Maybe it was because they didn't spend too much time on it (and thus ruin it as Glee is wont to do) but I thought that what was there in the Puck/Rachel relationship was sweet and could have built to more. But it seems pretty clear that the show is going to leave him with Quinn. My third choice was always Jesse St. James though they kind of ruined him at the end by making him less intelligent so as not to compete with Finchel. This is all to say that I just met Jonathan Groff tonight and he was so nice and he neither confirmed nor denied that Rachel would meet Jesse again in New York. So... fingers crossed!

[bravelittletoaster]

I personally think the spin off should have happened but according to what I've read, FOX didn't want to have that? That to me makes no sense.

From my understanding at the time it was on, and then Ryan created an enormous clusterfuck in the press by interpreting FOX's orders not to talk about it as an indication instead that he should say Glee's stars would be off the show and just shrug.  Dana Walden was incensed by how it all went down, the summer turned into a complete bad press wash for Glee, and the network washed their hands of the whole thing and were like "fuck it."  

I suppose FOX was banking on how fast Cory, Lea, and Chris caught on as fan favorites early on. Then how Naya and Darren had an arguably big fan base too, so maybe they assumed newbies would too.

That was Ryan, not FOX I think.  Networks, like banks and record labels, are conservative by nature.  They don't generally say "Let's gamble a lot of money on something we've never tried before!"  The NY and original cast member heavy promotion of a season that barely featured them was the tug of war between Ryan and FOX.  Ryan was barely writing for them and FOX was promoting the shit out of them as if he still was.  Unfortunately I think weeks of misleading promos finally took their toll, as people tuned in expecting their faves and got Marley and Ryder.  /my theory

Edited April 7, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[bravelittletoaster]

A normal show runner who doesn't need attention the way Tinkerbell needs applause would have just answered the press's questions about the graduating seniors with, "oh we have some ideas, but I can't discuss them with you at this time." But of course it's Ryan, so instead he said that Chris, Lea and Cory would be off Glee and left it there like a moron, the excrement unsurprisingly hit the whirly blades, and the rest is history.

[Myrna123]

of course it's Ryan, so instead he said that Chris, Lea and Cory would be off Glee and left it there like a moron, the excrement unsurprisingly hit the whirly blades, and the rest is history.

I think RM courts the drama then wails and flails when it doesn't play out exactly like he wanted. He wanted gasps and shock at the idea of the Glee faves graduating then he wanted everyone to freeze in delighted anticipation at what would happen next and just wait for him to amaze. We weren't supposed to have an actual opinion until Ryan was good and ready for us to have an opinion.

[camussie]

Obviously, I would have loved for Finn to still be alive, but the idea that Rachel would just give up everything she had worked her entire life for to go be Finn's wife in Ohio is so disgusting to me.

 

As a Finn fan let me say that story sucked for him too,  Here is a guy who would "learn to accept" that he belonged in Lima and put his personal life on hold until Rachel decided it was time for them to be together.  So not only would he have been the only one left in Lima, but he also would basically be on Rachel's time clock.  Not to mention him accepting her giving up her career for him would have been the antithesis of all that he wanted for her throughout the series.  He messed up in several ways with Rachel but one thing I never doubted is that he wanted her to achieve her dreams almost as much as she did.  That was one thing he was consistent about

There is also that he was introduced as a character whose arc was finding the courage to break free of his comfort zone.  That was set up in the very first episode with that speech he gave when he freed Artie from the port-a-potty.  Him "learning to accept" that he belongs in Lima, and more specifically at McKinley, is the exact opposite of that.  He would have indeed proved that he didn't have the backbone to even try to make it anywhere else besides McKinley.

I was a Finn/Rachel fan but I didn't need him to reunite with her for me to be satisfied with his story.  I just wanted him to leave his comfort zone of McKinley.  I can see why he needed it to find his footing in season 4; but, to basically never leave there would have been a terrible conclusion to the story set up in 1.1.  Narratively, of course leaving McKinley meant going to New York, since they wouldn't build out a third narrative, but my point is he needed to take a chance and leave just to prove to himself he was more than a high school hero/life zero.  After he did that, if he decided McKinley is where he wanted to teach, I would have accepted it.  It is the never leaving plan that bothered me.  Even people who return to their high school alma mater to teach don't stay there from right after they graduate HS until they are officially a teacher.  They live some life away from that setting in between and then return because that is where they have actively decided to be not just passively accepted it as their fate.

All of that said I doubt RM's would have gotten his way.  I think Fox went to one narrative to cut costs due to tumbling ratings and I also think those ratings would have tumbled this season, even if Cory hadn't passed.  Maybe not quite as quickly but the die was cast last season when they decided to extend the school year into this season.  I think that was the breaking point for many viewers.

Finn wasn't a mess cause of Rachel though, thier relationship mess up her character more.

 

RM's tendency to write unnecessary melodrama into relationships hurt Finn at times as well.  Season 1 any extended fall out from babygate was ignored in favor of how wrong Finn was to not be ready to date Rachel immediately.  Seasons 3 and 4 were an exercise is showing how Finn was less than just because, unlike Rachel, he didn't have his dreams planned out since the age of 4.  How he was just some loser who would drag her down because he dared to be on a path that was fairly normal for high school students.  It couldn't be that he was just unsure what to do after high school.  In no small part, because of the Rachel factor, it had to be he was a total loser for not having some big New York dream.  

I didn't mind him being unsure what path he was going to go on.  I minded that the scale used was in comparison to someone who had their dreams planned out since the age of 4.  That is an unfair standard that very few high school students could live up to and yet everyone seemed to expect him to do so.  

All of that said I still enjoyed the actor's dynamics and when RM stepped back from interjecting OTT melodrama the character's as well.  For example, for all of his faults as a boyfriend, on a fundamental level I think Finn just "got" Rachel.  Like when he was enthusiastic about the Berry family sing-a-long or when he managed to get her off her Kardashian kick  with the presents her gave her for Christmas or the advice he gave her in his last episode about her FG audition.  

Edited April 10, 2014 by camussie

[SNeaker]

Heyerchick:

Ryan Murphy has some strange personal history - his involvement while underage with an adult man - that has contributed to a sickly, sentimental belief that you forgive your first love *anything* and basically never get over them that I personally find creepy as all get out in the ways that has translated into Glee. Finn and Rachel, and Kurt and Blaine, Crazy Terri and Will - they are/were all terrible for each other, but Murphy had/has them welded together. Poor Will suffered Terri for about 15 years, and it looks like Kurt is never, ever, ever getting away from Blaine. The circumstances are terrible and tragic, but I too am glad Rachel at least is spared the fate of being chained to a relationship that seemed to consistently bring out the worst in her.

Don't forget Quinn and Puck, who are going to end up exactly like Terri and Will in the best case scenario. (Worst case is Revolutionary Road.) All because Quinn lost her virginity to him that one time they cheated and made a baby they gave away.

[camussie]

Oh, I agree, Bravelittletoaster, with everything your post said. Honestly, Ryan should have not said anything. I can't remember if he was directly asked about the kids graduating or what, and I understand it was an obvious question, but I feel like the way he answered the question sent a bunch of fire alarms to the viewers. And this happened in March, I think, of the 3rd season.

 

It happened in July before the third season.  In the first article RM said that Cory, Lea, and Chris were graduating and that he had talked to Lea and Chris but not Cory but he was sure he knew. Almost everyone read that as Chris, Lea, and Cory were off the show after season 3.  Then Chris got interviewed the next day due to his Emmy nom and he was circumspect saying he didn't know what was going to happen.  2-3 weeks later RM had another interview where he said that they had planned for a spin off.  Had begun discussing that with Cory, Lea, and Chris in March of season 2 (so March 2011) and were trying to keep a lid on things while they figured it out.  But now that the cat was out of the bag and the cast (read Chris) was implying they were blind-sided by the news that they would be off original recipe Glee, the spin-off was no more.  That edict seems to have come down from Fox.

Taking all of that into account this is what really seemed to happen:

• March 2011 - Cory, Lea, and Chris were approached about the plans for a spin-off but were asked to keep their mouths shut about it.  
• Early July 2011- RM opened his big mouth and hinted at a spin-off by saying those three would be off the show, which, most people understandably took to mean they would be gone completely.  In that same interview he flat out said he had talked to Lea & Chris and but not Cory but he was sure Cory knew Finn was graduating (my guess is Brad or Ian had talked to Cory)
• Next day - Chris was asked about "being off the show" he continued to be a good company man and not spill the beans about the spin-off so it made it seem that, not only did RM not talk to Cory, but he was lying about talking to Chris
• Late July 2011 - Fox nixed the spin-off due to the backlash of Cory, Chris, and Lea being off the show and RM did an interview blaming the backlash on the cast (read Chris) when really it was his own stupid interview that set the whole mess in motion
• During season 3 - RM became so gun shy about saying anybody was leaving he declared everybody would stay

Edited April 10, 2014 by camussie

[Myrna123]

Next day - Chris was asked about "being off the show" he continued to be a good company man and not spill the beans about the spin-off so it made it seem, that not only did RM not talk to Cory, but he was lying about talking to Chris

The only thing I'd add is that in those next-day interviews, all Chris Colfer said was that he didn't realize they were going to announce the graduation plans the day before.  He never implied that he hadn't known the graduations were happening merely that he hadn't realized they were going to announce it when they did.  It was the media who (erroneously) played it up like the stars had no idea any of the changes were happening.  Which made Ryan's throwing of Chris under the bus that much more head-scratching to me.

[camussie]

To be fair to the media once Ryan explicitly said he had talked to Chris and Lea and he was sure Cory knew Finn was graduating, it made it seem like he didn't give a damn about one of the the major players who played a big part (along with other key players) in making Glee a success.  He didn't have to make that distinction between Lea/Chris and Cory, but he chose to, and that contrast was very noticeable in how dismissive it came across.  After that bungle on RM's part, it wasn't that much of a jump to assume he fudged the truth when he said he talked to Chris when Chris rightfully continued to be circumspect about the future of Glee and Kurt on it after graduation.

As far as why he threw Chris under the bus - because he is a jackass who couldn't admit he brought this all on himself with a bungled interview that set the whole firestorm in motion.  Easier to blame the mess on Chris.

Edited April 10, 2014 by camussie

[Myrna123]

He didn't have to make that distinction between Lea/Chris and Cory but he chose to and that contrast was very noticeable in how dismissive it came across.

True.  And it's not like by then it wasn't common knowledge that RM was a jerk.  Jane Lynch gave an interview at some point that said she always knew who was in and out of RM's favor just by reading a new script.

Which once again begs the question of just how many of his dogs Jenna ran over.

[camussie]

Which still makes me wonder just what went down between Cory and Ryan between seasons 1 and 2.  Season 2 started with them explicitly bringing on Sam as the new and improved Finn and then the writing for Finn went down hill from there.  There were rumors that the cast banded together to try and get a better cut of the concert and song proceeds and Cory led that charge but nothing other than that.  It could be there were some behind the scenes problems (although Cory was the one who they generally had front and center and the smaller meet and great events that accompanied the tour so there couldn't have been too many problems).  Or maybe RM just wasn't all that invested in Finn's story so he threw him back together with Quinn just to give him something to do.  When asked about that mess of a story later on RM couldn't really explain why they did it.  Either way it sucked for the character.

Edited April 10, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

Ha Iove this stuff.  Everyone says Ryan loves Lea yet she gets crappy stuff too.   Hell she asked for a specific song once and he gave her the wrong song.  

While Ryan may seem like a jerk most of the people he employs seem to like him.  He hires many actors to do mulitple projects with him and he seems to be loyal to many of them.

[Myrna123]

most of the people he employs seem to like him.

I feel like it's more some of the people he employs seem to like him.  I'm trying to remember an article (then again, maybe it was just a forum post somewhere) that included a list of actors who've said they'll never work with RM again.  One or both of the guys from Nip/Tuck were on it, I thought.

Perhaps it was a list of actors people wished would never work with RM again...

[heyerchick]

Ah, the Big Summer of Lies.

Scaremongering Opening Salvo, 13th July 2011: Murphy sits down with Hollywood Reporter

Throw The Reporter Under A Bus, 24th July 2011: Falchuk, ComicCon and Hitfix

Reasoned Riposte, 28th July 2011: The Daily Beast fields Dana Walden (I, among others tweeted with the journalist, and as I recall, there was a spirited discussion in tv critic twitter circles about Murphy doing everything possible to kill this article before publication)

Pitch A Fit +Throw Your Cast Under A Bus: Murphy's 'heart to heart' with Deadline (after failing to kill the Daily Beast article) also 28th July 2011.

Heart-Warming Dramatic Interpretation Of All The Above by After Ellen, 29th July 2011

Edited April 10, 2014 by heyerchick

[tom87]

I feel like it's more some of the people he employs seem to like him.  I'm trying to remember an article (then again, maybe it was just a forum post somewhere) that included a list of actors who've said they'll never work with RM again.  One or both of the guys from Nip/Tuck were on it, I thought.

Perhaps it was a list of actors people wished would never work with RM again...

Maybe a love him or hate him type of guy.   I just think of the pilot Pretty handsom and it had Mike O'Malley, Jon Groff, Dot Marie Jones, Jospeh Fiennes ( AHS), Sarah Paulson (AHS) and a side note Blyth Danner aka Gwenth's mom.

Edited April 10, 2014 by tom87

[Flippant]

Jon Groff worked with Murphy on that "Pretty Handsome" Pilot, on "Glee" for seasons 1, 2 and 3 and also has a small role in the upcoming "Normal Heart".

Edited April 11, 2014 by Flippant

[tom87]

Wow. Reading what happened is kind of insane. I do remember Cory being slighted during the Summer of lies(as we call it). I remember an EW weekly online thing I read where they talked about Lea and Chris being under contract for a few more years, so don't worry or something of that nature. But there wasn't a mention of Cory. I do think RM has favorites though and I do think it translates on his screen. 

Also, can someone clear this up for me

What song did she want and what song did she get? I never heard this. 

She wanted to sing  Celine Dion's  To Love You More but he gave her It's All Coming Back To Me Now.   She later got her original wish.

[Cranberry]

Wasn't there something with Adele songs, too? I don't remember the details.

[tom87]

Wasn't there something with Adele songs, too? I don't remember the details.

Myabe you are thinking how she has joked at chairty events that she sings songs she hopes Ryan will put on the show and it has been Adele and Make me feel your love.   Which again she ended up singing  but for different reasons. :(

Edited April 11, 2014 by tom87

[jaytee1812]

If they had to have newbies, they should have been Finn's students at the school in NY. Dealing with them as a teacher/leader would have been part of his individual storyline, and all of the characters would have been meeting and interacting with new people. They could have even used some of the same actors. Hell, come to think of it...they could have had Jake. Say, one of the people who started in NYC comes across this talented dancer doing street performance and finds out the kid's name is Puckerman, Two and two together, in his travels from state to state (and woman to woman), Puckerman Sr. had a kid with a woman in NY and abandoned them too. (Makes more sense than them being in Lima and Puck somehow not having a clue even though the kid's name is Puckerman.) Puck finds out and seeks him out when the band goes to NY for a gig. He wants to stay, and so do Finn and Santana. Later it's revealed that they're cutting the arts program at Jake's school due to lack of funding and leadership, and that's how Finn ends up there.

I need to stop.

 

No, carry on, please. 

 

I liked the newbies, especially Jake and Kitty, but the material they had to worked with sucked big time. The fact they stood out as performers is a credit to how good they are. 

 

I really miss the story of the underdog, I'm rewatching the first couple of seasons now and while the writing has always had issues these characters really resonated. They were all underdogs for one reason or another, even if it didn't look like that to outsiders. The newbies never got that initial characterisation and now those underdogs who are left are a bunch of spoilt brats.

[heyerchick]

and now those underdogs who are left are a bunch of spoilt brats.

 

I wouldn't, by any stretch of the imagination, call Kurt Hummel a spoilt brat. The kid is far from perfect, which is part of the reason I love him so, but he treats Blaine far better and with more honesty and respect than Blaine treats him, and he's a far better friend to Rachel than she is to him.

[jaytee1812]

I wouldn't, by any stretch of the imagination, call Kurt Hummel a spoilt brat. The kid is far from perfect, which is part of the reason I love him so, but he treats Blaine far better and with more honesty and respect than Blaine treats him, and he's a far better friend to Rachel than she is to him.

 

I think he's kinda spoilt, but maybe not a brat. I think only him and Mercedes are redeemable now. 

 

I remember being horrified at seeing the kids being slushied in the early eps. I long for someone to do that now, anything to bring them back to reality. 

[tom87]

I never found people getting slushie and the school doing nothing about it reality at all.

 

But I never looked to glee for realism.