Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[nksarmi]

Except he's then got to convince other people of that. If the weren't already die hard Stark supporters  would imagine most people would be rather like Jamie's response to Stannis declaring that Joffrey was illegitimate ("Which would make Stannis the rightful King - how convenient!"), "Oh, you've had some mystical vision that makes your half brother the rightful ruler of the even Kingdoms? Please allow me to risk my life fighting the people who think they are on the word of some entirely unbiased cripple!"

When all is said and done - I don't think Jon or Dany will have trouble making people believe in them.  Dany has dragons and is the last known Targ - heir to the Iron Throne from the usurpers.  By the time she gets to Westerous, the people will have lived through the disastrous reign of Geoffrey and weak-willed Tommen.  And when the high lords see her dragons, they won't put up that much a fight. Tyrion was right that she can conquer - she will just need help ruling.

 

Jon on the other end rose to command because of a natural ability to lead and has displayed the strategy and fighting ability that made people believe in Robb.  He will presumably be magically resurrected and he is their best chance to stand against the White Walkers.  He isn't going to need to win support - people will see him winning battles and flock to him like crazy. 

 

I don't think the reveal of who Jon is will be to convince people to follow him - it will be to explain to the audience why he is alive and possibly in control of a magic sword (if lightbringer comes back into play) and why he may be able to both ride a dragon and warg a dire wolf.  And perhaps - if he lives - why he would be an heir to the throne.  But none of this will be why people follow him - people will follow him because he will save them.

[loki567]

 

I have a feeling this decision is completely HBO-imposed.  Maybe if it had been known sooner, D&D wouldn't have blown through the Battle of Winterfell so quickly.  Stanni's fate was a rushed mess and it didn't have to be.  Maybe they could have better really developed the North Remember stuff (though it looks like that's happening this season).  Then again, the only thing they seemed interested in this season was getting Sansa to the North so she can be a victim again, this time to SUPER RAMSAY!

 

Agree with all of this. I guess HBO felt Game of Thrones is absolutely vital to their new streaming service. I'm 50/50 on eight seasons being better than seven, but I wish the decision made sooner in the show's run. I think D&D were getting everything in place for a season seven conclusion and they probably would have spaced things out with more time. Stannis' decision to burn Shireen and his death probably would have gone down a lot differently. I also wonder if Jon and the Wall would have ended at Hardhome and save his stabbing for season six.

 

And I wonder if Dany and the Dothraki was a late addition. That doesn't seem like a storyline the show would usually bother with, not to mention you already have a meeting between Dany and Tyrion. That and now, "Tyrion/Varys are going to rule Meereen together," seems very much like they're stalling for time. 

 

The writers are going to be in an awkward spot, if now they have to circle back to the storylines they already skipped over in order to get that eighth season. I remember a lot of the early season five reviews seemed glad that the characters were converging, now they're going to have to disband everybody just to bring them back together again in season six/seven. I really hope this doesn't give the Boltons (or at least Ramsey) a reprieve. I was hoping that season six would be the Boltons' downfall, I can't handle any more sadism. 

 

And here's hoping that TWOW is a return to form and it supplies the show with enough wow moments for those extra seasons. 

Edited August 1, 2015 by loki567

[benteen]

With three seasons ahead of them, they could have made the Battle of Winterfell as epic as it is likely to be in The Winds of Winter.  You also could have done stuff along the way like Stannis winning the support of the Northern mountain clans and his capture of Deepwood Motte.  Something to at least start building The North Remembers storyline with.  To me, the eighth season was an HBO business decision.

 

If Season 7 and 8 are shorter season, like eight episodes (like a True Detective season) I would be pretty satisfied with that.  That would only add up to 76 episodes instead of the planned 70.

 

As noted though, they'll have to renegotiate with the actors again for an eighth season. 

 

We also might be getting stuck with SUPER RAMSAY for a little longer now.

Edited August 1, 2015 by benteen

[Hecate7]

I've been thinking a bit about last episode of the show and what it implies about the show knowing the end game. I was very upset at first thinking this burning of Shireen could not serve any plot purpose since it doesn't happen (at least at this point) in the books. I'm still angry at them putting it in the middle of an episode like that but when I thought about it I do think it fits into the bigger plot. Stannis choices here fits very well into how he's been portrayed by the show from the very start. As someone who's really determined to get the throne and will follow Melisandre's advice on how to get it no matter how horrible it is.

So this makes me wonder: did the show runners write Stannis with this knowledge in mind, that he will at one point burn his daughter?

And what does that mean to the difference in their portrayal of other characters?

For example people have complained that the adaption has regressed Jaime's development. Does this mean that GRRM has told them about something horrible Jaime does in future books and they're writing with this in mind?

I'm not saying that I think every change from the book characters is part of some bigger plan. Just that I think it's worth taking into account the show portrayal of the character when speculating where they're going to end up.

 

 

I've been pondering that, too. I can't figure it out, because the show runners also do lie to us, and say things like "Tywin's not a villain," and such. It's quite possible they do know something awful about Jaime. Then again, he might be getting darkened as part of whitewashing a character destined to kill him. Then again, they might simply have been delaying a redemptive arc as long as possible. Who knows?

The reason Jaime and Cersei weren't "officially" caught was because everybody who found out before Jon Arryn and Stannis were working their own agenda, not because of anything Jaime or Cersei did.  I'm dubious that Littlefinger would ever risk giving his enemies such an obvious means to destroy his standing, since if it became at all known his career would be over.

 

Not if they all have agendas which depend on leaving Robin Arryn where he is, or leaving Littlefinger where he is. You know, sort of like how Jaime has been getting away with it. If there's one thing Littlefinger is good at, it's arranging agendas to keep his enemies busy.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Hecate7

[screamin]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I understand why Jaime was in KL. I don't know why the rest of them were not. I mean, three KG at the ToJ? Who ordered them there? And what were they supposed to defend? And if they were there to defend a potential heir to the Throne (Lyanna preggers with Jon), did Aerys know and was cool with that? And why wasn't there more protection for Elia and the existing heirs to the Throne, including Aerys' other children? How did Rhaegar (not the king) get three KGs to ToJ and keep them there to fight to the death to protect...the...what? Fetal third in line to the Throne? I mean Rhaegar dies at the Trident, leaving the King alive, then Aegon, then Viserys, then the other Aegon, all in line to rule before an unborn child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Why are the KG even there, leaving the other heirs essentially unprotected?

 

Not why is Jaime there...but why isn't anyone else?

 

IMO, Rhaegar was a dick, following his libido with his prophecy obsession giving him the excuse he wanted to screw the hot teenager NOW to save the world, leaving Elia and the kids in Aerys' dangerous hands under the assumption they'd be fine because the gods wanted it that way. And IMO, the Kingsguard went along with him and followed his orders for all three of them to stay at the Tower because Rhaegar was a charismatic dick and they were sick of Aerys' madness. I think that they wanted Rhaegar to overthrow his father, but their obsession with honoring their vows above all wouldn't permit them to openly side with Rhaegar against Aerys...so one way or another he convinced them to obey his orders to guard Lyanna and stay out of his way in a place where they wouldn't have to witness him overthrowing Aerys and risk breaking their precious vows.

 

I think that after Rhaegar and Aerys were both dead they realized Rhaegar was wrong about everything, and that their overly cute hairsplitting to honor their vows above human decency had led them to a situation where the dynasty they had sworn to defend had lost the throne while their Kingsguard brothers had fallen in battle defending it, and they themselves had spent the war twiddling their thumbs idly while the king they had sworn vows to fell. I think that to keep themselves from looking like cowards in the eyes of the world and in their own eyes, they felt that the only choice they had left was to die bravely in battle following the orders that Rhaegar had given them, even though those orders no longer made any sense.

[Scarlett45]

Nvm-error.

[MadMouse]

We have to remember that only two KG were with Rhaegar at the TOJ at first. Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend and confidant so that makes sense. Its also my guess he learned of more of Aerys madness through his sister who was Elia's lady in waiting. Now why Whent? Its been hinted that the tourney at Harrenhal had a behind the scenes backer that most likely was Rhaegar. So obviously Oswell Whent helped organize everything with his family. I think these two were fully behind Rhaegar's plans, maybe not the prophecy part but in taking the throne for sure. 

 

Why only these two?

 

Barristan- Too rigid in his beliefs.

 

Darry- Jaime's memory of him makes him seem rigid too.

 

Jaime - Very Young. Powerful father could be used to gain support.

 

Martell- Elia's uncle, Lyanna enough said

 

The White Bull- This is the one that confuses me the most. What did Rhaegar say to convince him to stay while he left for the capital. 

 

[screamin]

The White Bull- This is the one that confuses me the most. What did Rhaegar say to convince him to stay while he left for the capital. 

 

I suspect that Hightower had long since had some inkling that he'd have to make a choice between Aerys and Rhaegar someday soon (having helped burn Lord Stark and his heir alive probably underlined this fact). He certainly seemed to have no trouble finding Rhaegar when Aerys sent him to get him, which indicated that Rhaegar probably had kept him in the loop.

 

I would guess that Aerys sent Hightower with some instructions like: "Get Rhaegar back here ASAP, no matter WHAT you have to do." And upon arriving, Rhaegar told Hightower, "I won't go back to the Red Keep unless you promise to stay here. The only way you can properly Obey Aerys' order to get me to KL is if you stay here and guard Lyanna till I get back." And I would guess that by that point Hightower would've been glad to accept that figleaf of justification for staying away from Aerys without having to break his precious Kingsguard vows. He probably had confidence that charismatic genius Rhaegar, who was successful at everything he turned his hand to, would manage a peaceful succession, while Hightower would be spared having to take sides. He was wrong about Rhaegar.

 

Hightower's last words (in which he lamented that IF ONLY he and his brothers had been at the Red Keep, Aerys would still be king) IMO show that the guilt of having made that wrong decision had driven him slightly around the bend (no, man, if you'd been at KL, Aerys would still be dead, period).

Edited September 7, 2015 by screamin

[Advance35]

Off topic but one thing that is bothering me based on all the spoilers being released so far is the lack of snow in Kings Landing.   In ADWD I believe Kevan's POV show's the reader that Winter has reached Kings Landing and that the Red Keep is freezing and dark because of the blizzard raging just outside.    I thought it gave the Kings Landing setting so much atmosphere in the book.    It made things in the Captial seem even darker and insidious, especially with Robert Strong lurking around and Lannister and Tyrell Guards ALWAYS on oppossing sides no matter where they are stationed.

 

If the season doesn't start out with Kings Landing in Winter I hope before the conclusion on Season 6 Winter finally comes.  

[Avaleigh]

We didn't get the white raven in the show yet, right? 

 

I figure the snow is coming but it won't be until the last episode of the season. 

[Crossbow]

Well, what can you do - I looked up the location where they're filming King's Landind and the average low in January is 10 °C / 50 °F. It ain't gonna snow. Maybe they'll try fake snow or special effects.

[Advance35]

I figure the snow is coming but it won't be until the last episode of the season.

 

I'm hoping this is true and I can't believe how nitpicky I am about it (I roll my eyes when I see other people harping on little details) I just didn't realize how much  I was looking forward to a Kings Landing winter.    And to be fair to the show, you could be right, last episode of the season, especially if that's when Kevan Lannister meets his fate.

 

 

Well, what can you do - I looked up the location where they're filming King's Landind and the average low in January is 10 °C / 50 °F. It ain't gonna snow. Maybe they'll try fake snow or special effects.

 

Or maybe they are waiting until the Kings Landing location doesn't require so many exterior shots.   Has anything official ever been declared in terms of Dany's Season 2 HoU scene.   Is the throne room covered in Ash or Snow?   I always thought it was snow and I thought they did a good job with it.

[Haleth]

There's hardly any snow in the North too.  I was expecting raging blizzards by now.  It's disappointing.

[Advance35]

http://watchersonthewall.com/spanish-updates-photo-shoot-and-some-surprising-almeria-sightings/#more-49015

 

Watchers On The Wall posted the attached Pics and I know that just because something is presented in the show doesn't mean it will DEFINITELY appear in the books but now based on what looks like a Season 6 photo shoot, I think the 3 Queens LF was talking to Sansa about in AFFC are definitely Margaery, Cersei and Dany.

[WearyTraveler]

http://watchersonthewall.com/spanish-updates-photo-shoot-and-some-surprising-almeria-sightings/#more-49015

 

Watchers On The Wall posted the attached Pics and I know that just because something is presented in the show doesn't mean it will DEFINITELY appear in the books but now based on what looks like a Season 6 photo shoot, I think the 3 Queens LF was talking to Sansa about in AFFC are definitely Margaery, Cersei and Dany.

 

From the article:

 

"We also have this great image of Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey and Natalie Dormer in costume, sadly not an upcoming Three-Queens-Hang-Out-Together Season Six plot-twist, but an Alacazaba photo shoot shared by Juego de Tronos on Twitter"

 

Sadly, a photoshoot for a magazine doesn't mean a show plot point.  There has been no evidence so far of the three actresses filming together.  Dany seems to be still stuck in Essos, swinging the Dothraki to her side by showing them Drogon's power.

 

That said, I do think that the three Queens refers to these three and they will eventually meet.  I have never been a believer in any of the Queen Sansa theories.

[Winnief]

That said, I do think that the three Queens refers to these three and they will eventually meet.  I have never been a believer in any of the Queen Sansa theories.

 

For the record I DO hold with the Queen Sansa theory, but I agree a Dany/Cersei/Margaery showdown seems likely.  (Though, in the books I think it was Arianne/Cersei/Margaery, but they'll just give fAegon's role to Dany and cut out Arianne entirely.)  I just think that the final twist will be that Sansa ends up outlasting all of them to be Queen.

[nksarmi]

OK I don't really know where else to ask this so.....

 

Why do people think the "girl will kill a Titan in a house of snow" means Sansa will kill Littlefinger? 

 

I think I understand why it's Sansa - but could it be anyone other than Littlefinger?

[SeanC]

OK I don't really know where else to ask this so.....

Why do people think the "girl will kill a Titan in a house of snow" means Sansa will kill Littlefinger?

I think I understand why it's Sansa - but could it be anyone other than Littlefinger?

The girl is Sansa because the Ghost specifies that it's the same maiden she saw in her vision of the Purple Wedding with poison serpents in her hair).

Regarding why people speculate that it's Littlefinger, beyond the fact that he's the main antagonist in her story (seemingly), in the same book where we hear this prophecy we're told that the traditional Baelish family arms feature the Titan of Braavos (which he doesn't use).

[nksarmi]

Ok thanks.  That makes sense. 

[mac123x]

Incidentally, the Ghost of High Heart doesn't say "titan".  "I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow".

 

When Sansa builds a snow version of Winterfell, Robin Arryn smashed it with his doll, saying that a giant was attacking her castle.  She tore the doll apart, thus "slaying the savage giant".  It's entirely possible that the Ghost saw a vision of that scene and put a poetic spin on it -- after all, various characters have commented on the unreliability of prophecies: 

"Prophecy is like a half-trained mule,” Tyrion complained to Jorah Mormont. “It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head."

[nksarmi]

Well the other two scenes she described were more significant than that so I believe the one with Sansa will be as well, but time will tell.

[benteen]

Just bringing this thread back up.  I always found it a good source for post-episode discussions for book readers.

[Advance35]

Ok so I assume House Martell won't be going hand in hand with Dany in the books.  I always assumed we might lose a Sand Snake or two and that Trystane would be around to carry the House into the future after the dust settles from all of the upcoming conflict (White Walkers and Political Maneuvering).   I'm now convinced the entire House is doomed.   So Great Houses on the way out IMO are House Baratheon  and House Martell.

 

And Melissandre was a shock to me.  I had seen the theory before but I didn't give it any weight.

 

How on earth is GRRM going to wrap all of these plot threads together/up within the span of two books?

[screamin]

Ok so I assume House Martell won't be going hand in hand with Dany in the books. 

 

Don't see why not. Ellaria wants to kick Lannister ass, and so will Dany if she ever gets around to going to Westeros. The enemy of my enemy...

[SeanC]

Don't see why not. Ellaria wants to kick Lannister ass, and so will Dany if she ever gets around to going to Westeros. The enemy of my enemy...

Ellaria is being played as a straight-up villain on the show.  Not to mention, she murdered Myrcella, and there's no way the saintly show!Tyrion will have anything to do with her (not that I particularly think book!Tyrion would either, mind you).

[nksarmi]

I believe the Dorne story is SO far off from the books that the show is no longer a hint of what we will see from House Martell.  I think the show is just condensing it's list of characters and stories.  Since I believe the Martells will end up with (f) Aegon and not Dany in the books, I think the show is just writing that story out altogether and keeping their Targ story focus on Dany.

 

The show just basically killed off all of House Martell - I don't believe for a minute that is their fate in the books.

[Advance35]

The show just basically killed off all of House Martell - I don't believe for a minute that is their fate in the books.

 

 

I'm really leaning the other way.  I don't doubt there will be more nuance (MAYBE, he only has 2 books and I have know doubt other characters take priority) but I think ultimately House Martell won't be left standing.   Different roads, same destination or whatever song GRRM is singing these days.

[WearyTraveler]

Maybe in the books when Dany slays the mummer's dragon (fAegon), she will take out all the Martells too.  In the books, it seems we're headed to an Arienne / Aegon alliance with an Aegon that seemed to be more impetuous as he came out of hiding and got a taste of power. I doubt he'll bow to Dany and let her take what he thinks it's his kingdom.

 

So, I can see Dany fighting her fake nephew and ending the Martell dynasty. fAegon's army will then be hers and she'll start her war on the usurpers from the south.

Edited April 25, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[nksarmi]

I still believe the (f) Aegon is the third head of the dragon.  Rather or not he's who he was raised to believe he is - I think he's a dragon.  I think he will unite with Arienne and come at KL from the South.  Jon's story may very well move him South so that he comes at KL from the North. When those two meet and Dany comes at KL from the (west?) - that's probably when Cersei will go nuts and burn the place down.

 

Once the Iron Throne is nothing but burnt scrap metal with snow all around it - then Dany, Aegon, and Jon will unite to fight the Others.  I don't know if any of them will survive that battle but I don't think that's the point.  I think bringing together three "dragon" heads of armies is the point because it will take the three of them together to defeat the Others.

 

Also, I honestly believe that at least one member of all the great houses will survive to see the seven kingdoms enter a new world/era.  So yea, I think either Arienne or Trystane make it out of the books alive (I think it's Tyrion for the Lannisters and I really do NOT believe he is a dragon.  I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion rides a dragon that Bran is warging at some point but I honestly believe Tyrion is all lion).

Edited April 25, 2016 by nksarmi

[MadMouse]

I wouldn't read too much into what happened in Dorne. So much of that story is tied into the Rebellion and the Blackfyres which the show has almost entirely ignored it makes sense to take it into a completely different direction. Without Faegon, Arianne, Connington, etc telling the story from the book doesn't make sense. Of course  it should not have been the POS it ended up as though.

 

Now when it comes to the books its right up GRRM alley to have the Martells going against the true Targ heir in Dany while supporting a Blackfyre especially since it was the Martell/Dornish influence that was one of the causes of the rebellion. That's why I wouldn't be surprised that Yronwoods former Blackfyre supporters end up declaring for Dany.

[Eyes High]

I believe the Dorne story is SO far off from the books that the show is no longer a hint of what we will see from House Martell.  I think the show is just condensing it's list of characters and stories.  Since I believe the Martells will end up with (f) Aegon and not Dany in the books, I think the show is just writing that story out altogether and keeping their Targ story focus on Dany.

 

The show just basically killed off all of House Martell - I don't believe for a minute that is their fate in the books.

 

I could easily believe it. Remember that scene with Doran contemplating the oranges dropping from the trees and wincing when one of them falls as if the sound hurts him? It's a beautiful but ominous moment. There's also a suggestion in the books that Doran is the only member of the Martell family other than maybe Ellaria Sand with any semblance of brains or restraint. Ellaria Sand's pleas for restraint in the books fell on deaf ears, and if anything happens to Doran, who's left to replace him but power-hungry, impulsive, not terribly bright Arianne?

 

Suppose GRRM told D&D what many fans assume he told them about Dorne: that Aegon dies in a failed bid to secure the throne and takes down Arianne and the Martells with him. If D&D, knowing that, decided to remove Aegon and Arianne but keep Dorne in, they would have to find a way to take down the Martells without a misguided decision to back Aegon. Maybe they decided to do that by killing off the only decent Martells and putting the psychopathic Sand Snakes and Ellaria in charge.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[loki567]

I just don't get what the point of Dorne is in the show? I can understand the story in the books, fake dragon vs. real dragon. Putting a Blackfyre on the throne is probably the main motive for Varys, one of the most mysterious and important figures in ASoIaF. But what's the endgame for GoT? If you take out the Varys angle and you take out fAegon, why does this matter to Daenerys? Why waste our time with it? I guess it could turn into a Lannister vs. Martell storyline but considering you still have the Sparrows and the Tyrells, you figure Cersei would be a little busy. 

[Maximum Taco]

I just don't get what the point of Dorne is in the show? I can understand the story in the books, fake dragon vs. real dragon. Putting a Blackfyre on the throne is probably the main motive for Varys, one of the most mysterious and important figures in ASoIaF. But what's the endgame for GoT? If you take out the Varys angle and you take out fAegon, why does this matter to Daenerys? Why waste our time with it? I guess it could turn into a Lannister vs. Martell storyline but considering you still have the Sparrows and the Tyrells, you figure Cersei would be a little busy. 

 

There is no point.

 

D&D only included Dorne in the show because they wanted Oberyn (and his horribly shocking death) and the Sand Snakes. Those are the things about Dorne that they think are "cool," unfortunately both are superfluous to the larger story. They're nice spices, but that's all they are, there's no substance there.

 

Once they decided to eliminate Quentyn and Arianne, there is no Dorne storyline.

 

Quentyn is necessary because Doran needs to be planning something. He can't just be happy with marrying Trystane off to Myrcella (like Show!Doran seemed to be), the whole point is for him to be bringing horrible vengeance upon the Lannisters. What's the point of introducing a pragmatic long thinking planner who ISN'T PLANNING ANYTHING?!

 

Arianne needs to be there to disrupt Doran's plans, and nearly ruin everything (thereby creating a second scenario where things get even more exciting.) But if Doran isn't planning anything (like in the show), then Arianne is effectively useless too.

 

Doran, Arianne and Quentyn (and probably Aegon) were the meat of the Dornish storyline in the books, they don't just lift out. Just having Oberyn, Ellaria and the Sand Snakes is like eating a spicy Dornish dish, but all the meat is gone and they've only served you dragon peppers.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Hecate7]

Ellaria is being played as a straight-up villain on the show.  Not to mention, she murdered Myrcella, and there's no way the saintly show!Tyrion will have anything to do with her (not that I particularly think book!Tyrion would either, mind you).

 

Tyrion never wanted Myrcella dead, but he came on board as the foremost killer of Lannisters. He is wanted for the killing of his nephew, he actually DID kill his father, and he is allied with Danaerys, who frankly does not care that Cersei was 9-ish? and Tommen wasn't born yet when Aerys was killed. She also doesn't care that Ned Stark was a good guy or any of that. The Baratheons are gone, but she would still like to see every family who allied with them wiped out. So she and the Martells are natural allies, and Myrcella's death isn't going to change Tyrion's political obligation to Danaerys in any way.

 

At present it looks like three-way chess.

 

First team: Queen Cersei, with Jaime and the Mountain as her knights, Tommen as king, and Littlefinger and Quyburn as the Bishops. Allied with her are the Freys, Lannisters, Boltons, Karstarks, and, tenuously, the Tyrells, though that's not going to last. Their adversaries include the Starks and now the Martells. Everyone on this team is one breath away from revolt and might join another team at a minute's notice.

 

Second team: Martells, with Ellaria as queen, the sandsnakes as knights, and no discernible king or bishops yet. The alliance with the Lannisters is over, and team Martell will most likely be joining

 

Third Team: Targaryens. Queen Danaerys, with knights Jorah, Daario, Greyworm, and eventually the Dothraki reclaimed. Her new Bishops are Varys and Tyrion. She's still trying to get those ships. Although Tyrion has very decisively broken with the Lannisters, his love for Myrcella will make the Martell alliance awkward, but that's one place where she might get some ships. Other possible sources include the Iron Bank of Braavos, or an alliance with a Westerosi family.

 

Fourth Team: Team Stark, with Sansa as Queen, Littlefinger, Samwell Tarly, and Melisandre as bishops, Davos, Jon Snow, Brienne of Tarth, and Tormund Giant's Bane as knights. Lotta knights on this team. Theon Greyjoy and Podric Payne are also on this team, which could mean that Yara might join it as well.

 

The houses are dying off and consolidating. Baratheon is gone. House Stark is almost gone. Martell is mostly gone. Targaryen is down to one actual heir. Lannister is still a sea of red dominating King's Landing, but the brains of the outfit have deserted. House Tyrell is dead if it doesn't find a way to escape the Lannisters, and so might cross ranks to join up with the Targaryen, Stark, or Martell side. Tyrell tends to attach itself to a stronger house and creep up the side of it, so I'm betting on their joining forces with the Martells first.

[WearyTraveler]

You've counted Littlefinger twice: with the Lannisters and with the Starks.  Personally, I think LF is on team LF.  Whatever works best for his interests is what he will do.  Right now that seems to be taking the North through Sansa.  Even since the series started, LF has had a hard-on for the Starks (plotting to blame the Lannisters for the assassination attempt on Brandon, and betraying Ned).  I think it's clear he wants all of Westeros.  He controls the Vale, he's Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (can't remember if the show gave him that title when they gave him Harren Hall), and now he's gunning for the North.  He wants to exact his revenge on the Tullys and the Starks for the slights he believes he suffered at their hands.

 

As for Daenerys getting new ships, I don't think the Martells are known for their fleet.  It's more likely that they'll have the Ironborn connect with Dany by having one of the characters we know take on part of Victarion's role in the books.

[benteen]

Definitely no fleet for the Martells.  I believe they burned theirs many, many years earlier.  Nymeria burned it, perhaps?

 

About the only thing that "works" with the new Dorne storyline is that there's much more of a personal stake.  What I mean is, part of the reason I didn't find Doran's revenge plot as interesting is because the main person who wanted to get revenge on, Tywin, is dead.  It's kind of like how Dany destroying the Usurper's Dogs means nothing now because the only dogs still left are Jaime and, for now in the books, Stannis.  The only thing D&D have managed to create out of this current Dorne mess is a personal stake between Ellaria and Cersei.  But it's still an awful train wreck and Ellaria is ridiculous.  Does she truly think her "beloved" would want his brother and nephew to be murdered after they killed a young girl?  It's self-absorbed nonsense.

 

Sansa and Poderick in yesterday's episode reminded me that if Sansa is ever given a true love interest on this show, I hope it's Pod.

[nksarmi]

I just don't believe that GRRM intends to destroy the entirety of House Martell - nor do I believe that the exclusion of those characters and Aegon means the story is nothing in the books.  At one time, I did.  I thought if the show left someone out - it must mean they didn't matter to the end game.  Then I came to realize that this story is just way too big so they are consolidating storylines.  Giving Barrister's to Tyrion, Jon C's to Jorah, etc.....

 

They simply HAVE to shrink where GRRM expanded and expanded and expanded. I don't blame them, but I don't think they are any real indicator of what's to come.

 

I did once think they would tell us the fate of most characters - like live or die and where they ended up - but I no longer believe that. It's been clearly stated that the show has - and will probably continue to do so - killed characters who live in the books and they likely will even kill characters who survive the whole series. At this point, I think there are some characters who will have a completely different show fate than book fate.  It doesn't matter what D&D know - all that matters is what they choose to tell.

[benteen]

The Martell bloodline is still around...the Sand Snakes.  It's the name that has been officially taken out.

[nksarmi]

The Martell bloodline is still around...the Sand Snakes.  It's the name that has been officially taken out.

 

I'll go with whatever the show is selling because whatever - but so what we have here is the oldest bastard sand snake is going to become the new princess of Dorne?  Ok.

Edited April 25, 2016 by nksarmi

[Advance35]

At this point, I think there are some characters who will have a completely different show fate than book fate.  It doesn't matter what D&D know - all that matters is what they choose to tell.

 

I'd buy this for everyone who is not a POV character.  Maybe.  Have D&D issued another statement recently?   Last I checked they were with GRRM, in that he will include certain steps in journey's that they will not.

 

 

Sansa and Poderick in yesterday's episode reminded me that if Sansa is ever given a true love interest on this show, I hope it's Pod.

 

I don't know why, but I the thought actually popped into my head during last night's episode.  Pod/Sansa, I have never given the two a second's thought before.

[Maximum Taco]

I'd buy this for everyone who is not a POV character.  Maybe.  Have D&D issued another statement recently?   Last I checked they were with GRRM, in that he will include certain steps in journey's that they will not.

 

For Major POV characters you mean.

 

They've already killed off two minor POVs who have yet to die in the books (Barristan, Hotah) and just didn't include a bunch more (Arianne, Quentyn, Arys Oakheart, Jon Connington)

 

They've also drastically changed three major POV arcs (Jaime, Brienne, Sansa)

 

Personally I think they're going completely off book here. Maybe the major POVs will end up in the same places as the books, but I haven't bought into that yet. I know several minor POVs will not (I mean some don't even exist in this world.) I'm certain several other minor characters will end up in different ending spots.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[MadMouse]

 

Tyrion never wanted Myrcella dead, but he came on board as the foremost killer of Lannisters. He is wanted for the killing of his nephew, he actually DID kill his father, and he is allied with Danaerys, who frankly does not care that Cersei was 9-ish? and Tommen wasn't born yet when Aerys was killed. She also doesn't care that Ned Stark was a good guy or any of that. The Baratheons are gone, but she would still like to see every family who allied with them wiped out. So she and the Martells are natural allies, and Myrcella's death isn't going to change Tyrion's political obligation to Danaerys in any way.

 

Book Tyrion might want all his family dead but show Tyrion doesn't, his last interaction with Jaime is a hug, Hell he smiles at Tommen when he puts him on trial for Joffrey murder and hands the reigns over to Tywin. Show Tyrion is a white knight no way he is okay with the murder of his sweet innocent niece.

 

As for Dany just like in books I'm guessing she's going to receive an education about the rebellion in general. 

 

 

First team: Queen Cersei, with Jaime and the Mountain as her knights, Tommen as king, and Littlefinger and Quyburn as the Bishops. Allied with her are the Freys, Lannisters, Boltons, Karstarks, and, tenuously, the Tyrells, though that's not going to last. Their adversaries include the Starks and now the Martells. Everyone on this team is one breath away from revolt and might join another team at a minute's notice.

 

Roose is in open revolt against the crown. And since Genna Lannister doesn't exist in the show I'm guessing Walda marriage to him puts the Freys in the Bolton camp.

 

 

Third Team: Targaryens. Queen Danaerys, with knights Jorah, Daario, Greyworm, and eventually the Dothraki reclaimed. Her new Bishops are Varys and Tyrion. She's still trying to get those ships. Although Tyrion has very decisively broken with the Lannisters, his love for Myrcella will make the Martell alliance awkward, but that's one place where she might get some ships. Other possible sources include the Iron Bank of Braavos, or an alliance with a Westerosi family.

 

We are the ironborn, and once we were conquerors. Our writ ran everywhere the sound of the waves was heard. My brother would have be content with the cold and dismal north, my niece with even less ... but I shall give you Lannisport. Highgarden. The Arbor. Oldtown. The riverlands and the Reach, the kingswood and the rainwood, Dorne and the marches, the Mountains of the Moon and the Vale of Arryn, Tarth and the Stepstones. I say we take it all! I say, we take Westeros

 

[Advance35]

They've already killed off two minor POVs who have yet to die in the books (Barristan, Hotah) and just didn't include a bunch more (Arianne, Quentyn, Arys Oakheart, Jon Connington)

 

They've also drastically changed three major POV arcs (Jaime, Brienne, Sansa)

 

But I think those minor POV's you mentioned are all going to end up dead.  Maybe in different ways but dead all the same.   And  though they drastically changed some arcs I still expect them to come to the same end as their counter parts, it's just clearly going to be a different road.   Though I grant you one unique circumstance in the book form of Willas Tyrell, GRRM has spoken like the character has a large role to play and I got the impression it was something beyond inheriting Highgarden. 

 

One thing worth considering is, will GRRM finish?   I am in line with those who think he has a palpable level of disinterest in the series now, and if he doesn't does the SHOW become cannon?  Will he one day just release paragraphs summing up the fate of each character?   I'm trying to think of another book/show adaptation that's beein in this situation and I honestly can't.

[Eyes High]

I do not believe for one moment that Stannis' death was "rushed" because of HBO's dictates. I do believe D&D wanted to clear Stannis out of the way so that the Starks could take on the Boltons without Stannis in the way, and so that any victory over the Boltons would be the Starks' and the Starks' alone.

 

they probably would have spaced things out with more time.

I doubt it, especially now that the most recent word is not 10 more episodes in addition to the seven seasons planned but three. That's about 150 extra minutes', or about 15 extra minutes per storyline, given that there are usually about 10 storylines on the go at any given time. That adds up to three long scenes or six short scenes extra. That's not a lot.

 

Stannis' decision to burn Shireen and his death probably would have gone down a lot differently.

I doubt it. Stannis was always an impediment to the real story D&D wanted to tell: the Starks reclaiming the north. They are gearing up to tell that story in Season 6, it looks like, and Stannis is an obstacle that needed to be swept out of the way.

 

And I wonder if Dany and the Dothraki was a late addition

I very much doubt it. GRRM has said that the Dothraki will be coming back in a big way in TWOW.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[Maximum Taco]

But I think those minor POV's you mentioned are all going to end up dead.  Maybe in different ways but dead all the same.   And  though they drastically changed some arcs I still expect them to come to the same end as their counter parts, it's just clearly going to be a different road.   Though I grant you one unique circumstance in the book form of Willas Tyrell, GRRM has spoken like the character has a large role to play and I got the impression it was something beyond inheriting Highgarden. 

 

One thing worth considering is, will GRRM finish?   I am in line with those who think he has a palpable level of disinterest in the series now, and if he doesn't does the SHOW become cannon?  Will he one day just release paragraphs summing up the fate of each character?   I'm trying to think of another book/show adaptation that's beein in this situation and I honestly can't.

 

I think he will finish, I agree with you that his motivation has been low recently, and I think that's because the series did a pretty good job of adapting his work through the first 3-4 seasons. That's no longer true though; I think he's more motivated now, because he's annoyed with how the series is departing from the books.

 

He's been on quote recently saying things like "The books are always better," which to me feel like backhanded criticisms of how they are adapting the more recent material.

 

Martin has always been fiercely protective of his work, to the point where he'd attack fanfic writers, I think these departures are eating at him, and he won't be willing to let the series become canon.

 

He's also said that he's dropped all of his current projects except for The Winds of Winter and editing for Wild Cards. Unless he's quitting writing that (IMO) speaks to his motivation as well.

 

You're right that this has never really happened before. I think this is the first time where an adaptation has started before the original material has finished, and will also end before the original material finishes.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

I think we'll get The Winds of Winter but I don't think GRRM will finish the story.  I think he's lost a lot of interest in writing the books and it has become a chore to him though he still clearly loves writing world-building books and short stories set in the world.  But I think he is more interested in being a celebrity author and all the new opportunities that it has brought his way.

[Maximum Taco]

I think we'll get The Winds of Winter but I don't think GRRM will finish the story.  I think he's lost a lot of interest in writing the books and it has become a chore to him though he still clearly loves writing world-building books and short stories set in the world.  But I think he is more interested in being a celebrity author and all the new opportunities that it has brought his way.

 

So you think he's gonna leave the series with one book left? That seems really weird to me.

 

Typically it seems like the last book in a series is the easiest one to write. All the characters are pretty much on their rails, and he's been adamant that he knows where they end up.

 

I believe that too, GRRM to me seems like an author who plans big events (Ned's Beheading, Red Wedding, Battle for Meereen, etc) and tries to write his characters towards that. He gets stuck when they don't fit properly. After Winds all the characters should be easily positioned for a finale.

 

If he finishes The Winds of Winter, I'm even more confident we'll get A Dream of Spring.

 

Unless of course you think the series will not be complete within 2 books. I don't think that's the case though, seeing as the show says they only have 13 episodes of material left.

[benteen]

I just think GRRM isn't going to finish the series.  I just don't think he's going to get it done.  Whether or not there's one more book after WoW or two.

Edited April 25, 2016 by benteen

[loki567]

I think he will finish, I agree with you that his motivation has been low recently, and I think that's because the series did a pretty good job of adapting his work through the first 3-4 seasons. That's no longer true though; I think he's more motivated now, because he's annoyed with how the series is departing from the books.

 

He's been on quote recently saying things like "The books are always better," which to me feel like backhanded criticisms of how they are adapting the more recent material.

 

Martin has always been fiercely protective of his work, to the point where he'd attack fanfic writers, I think these departures are eating at him, and he won't be willing to let the series become canon.

 

He's also said that he's dropped all of his current projects except for The Winds of Winter and editing for Wild Cards. Unless he's quitting writing that (IMO) speaks to his motivation as well.

 

You're right that this has never really happened before. I think this is the first time where an adaptation has started before the original material has finished, and will also end before the original material finishes.

 

I could definitely see this. Martin has talked about how he doesn't want another author to write in the series' universe after he's gone. I can definitely imagine the idea of GoT being the "conclusion," to the series burning him up inside. It's good, occasionally everybody needs a fire lit under their ass. The books becoming wildly popular after the show didn't do it. 

[benteen]

I hope that's true but not even canceling his con appearances months in advance got GRRM fired up enough to finish The Winds of Winter before the start of Season 6.  We still have no idea when the book is coming out.  To me, his heart just isn't in this series anymore.