Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[AshleyN]

At this point I think the main reason I want GRRM to hurry up with the next book is to get at least a little break from secret paternity and (X Character) = (Y Character) theories.

Edited July 23, 2015 by AshleyN

[Oscirus]

Just getting back to this thread I'll answer the rest later but as to the reason that Tywin wouldn't want to kill a kid he knows is a bastard:Tywin is a man who needs family honor,  there is no way that he would even want the rumor of a Lannister bastard (dead or alive) floating around. So he'd suffer in silence rather then risk having that secret get out. Not to mention I doubt he'd want to be known as a kin killer.  Besides, it's not like Tywin hasn't been trying to kill Tyrion. We've seen on multiple occasions that Tywin has tried to kill Tyrion in a way that can't be traced back to him.

 

That being said, I really doubt that Tyrion is Aerys's. On a show where they like to beat you on the head with clues, there's been no indication that Tyrion's a  Targeryan.  No quotes, no actions, nothing.

 

For some reason I think we are going to see LF sitting on the Iron Throne before all is said and done.  NOT as a ruler but during one of those clandestine trips he takes to the Throne Room (in the show) I think he'll sit on the Throne, likely over someone or a few someones dead bodies (literally).

 

I'd love for that to happen. I actually think that through his many machinations that he'll be the king on the throne before Dany comes to claim it. It would fit Sansa as the YMBQ since she would obviously be LF's choice of bride.

[Hecate7]

You're forgetting that as LF's liege lord, all the money and the power that LF gained derives from Arryn's sponsorship. LF can't just take all that money and hire himself a champion to beat Arryn's champion. Firstly, his funds could be frozen until their rightful ownership was determined. Secondly, if LF were arrested as a suspect in cuckolding his liege lord, it wouldn't be just Arryn interested in getting him killed. It would be all Arryn's other subjects - who'd be willing to kneel and kiss their beloved lord's son distiguished Arryn ass, but would be DAMNED if they'd risk kneeling to kiss some upjumped Sheepshit Island's bastard offspring masquerading as a highborn Arryn. It would be also be all of Jon Arryn's friends - including King Robert himself. Who are LF's friends, who'd be willing to champion him in the face of the disapproval of the king?

 

LF takes risks...but he takes them carefully planned, for good reasons, and always making sure to minimize the risk to himself personally. Knocking Lysa up doesn't fit that category. By doing that, he risks himself personally. He also risks Lysa's life - not that he actually CARES about her, but she was his surest source of power for many years and his endgame with her was to become her second husband and get his hands on the Vale through her. If Lysa gets pregnant by LF and has a child wildly unlike Jon Arryn (a factor LF would have no control over) Lysa might be put to death as an adulterer. She might bravely keep her mouth shut unto death on who her partner was, but she'd still die and put an end to LF's rapid advancement and chance at getting the Vale.

 

IMO, LF risks much and gains NOTHING by knocking up Lysa adulterously. That would be out of character for him. We've seen that he's never taken any deep interest in having a child of his own in a hurry...so he wouldn't risk his big plans for himself out of a wild desire for immediate posterity. We've seen that he doesn't care for Lysa, so he has no motivation for having lots of sex with her. Yes, his plans require her continued infatuation, but if LF can't keep her yearning for him with a lot of sweet words and some safely nonreproductive brief activity once in a very long while, then he's not the scheming LF we know.

 

That's besides the fact that Lysa pretty much denied having given LF a son with her dying breath ("I WOULD HAVE given you a son, but they murdered him...") and also the only thing against Arryn's paternity of Robin is that a relative has "the look of" a young Jon Arryn and has blue eyes and blond hair and a stupendous physique and Robin has brown hair and eyes we don't know what color of (yes, the show has his eyes as brown, but the show has no Harry and the show had Shireen Baratheon without black hair), and is a scrawny weakling, so we don't know whether the point of resemblance between Harry and Jon are the eyes (which Robin could also have), or the features, or the physique, or the hair...I'd say proof for LF's paternity is pretty thin on the ground.

 

 

There is also the fact that Jon Arryn was unable to impregnate his previous wives. I think that's in the story for a reason.

 

Thank you for straightening me out about the Liege Lord business. That makes an affair with Lyssa carry a little more weight, but it's still not as risky as regicide. Littlefinger, of all people, knows how to conceal an affair. If he did not, there would be an awful lot of nobles running around in disgrace. In a way, he's been having an affair with everyone in King's Landing.

[Dev F]

There is also the fact that Jon Arryn was unable to impregnate his previous wives. I think that's in the story for a reason.

 

It is in the story for a reason, and that reason has already been explained: Catelyn deduced that Jon Arryn agreed to marry Lysa because he'd had problems conceiving with his previous wives, so he wanted a bride who'd proven herself to be fertile, as Lysa did when Littlefinger knocked her up.

 

Again, this strikes me as a soap operatic sort of plot twist -- the notion that the solution to a mystery is in fact just a stalking horse for some other, more impossibly complicated mystery. Especially one that doesn't deepen the story but just piles incident on top of incident: Littlefinger is an amoral schemer, so what if he schemed even more amorally than we previously realized? We know Litlefinger knocked up Lysa one time, but what if he knocked her up both times? I don't really see what that adds to the narrative.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Dev F

[Avaleigh]

I sort of thought that Littlefinger might have been thinking about Lysa when he made the comment about being in bed with an unattractive woman, how it's better to just close your eyes and get it over with because waiting won't make the woman any more attractive. 

 

I agree that the evidence is thin and that it's an unlikely theory. 

[SeanC]

There is also the fact that Jon Arryn was unable to impregnate his previous wives. I think that's in the story for a reason.

Jeyne Royce got pregnant, she just died in childbirth (as did the baby).  It was only Rowena who never conceived at all.

[benteen]

About Catelyn and Lysa, their mother was a lady of House Whent.  Reading information about that House, they seem to have had great difficulty producing children.  The House went extinct by A Clash of Kings and it's noted the only wife of Walder Frey who gave him no children was a Whent.  Catelyn and Lysa's mother lost three children, the last one resulting in her own death.  Catelyn was able to have five successful pregnancies while Lysa had great difficulty (the book suggests this might have been as a result of Hoster Tully forcing his daughter to have an abortion).  So Jon Arryn and Lysa weren't a great match for producing potential offspring.  But I still don't think at all that Robin in the child of Littlefinger.  It would really prove no point storywise.

[nksarmi]

At this point I think the main reason I want GRRM to hurry up with the next book is to get at least a little break from secret paternity and (X Character) = (Y Character) theories.

Or at least to have new clues and/or theories to discuss. :)

[Hecate7]

I'm curious if there's a law against sleeping with the wife of your liege lord or if it just falls under bad taste and terrible manners. 

 

Actually there is. That falls under treason, and puts it on the level of what Jaime Lannister has been doing. Nevertheless, if Jaime Lannister can manage a 15 year incestuous affair that produces three royal bastards, and never be officially caught even though it's more or less known to everyone what he's doing, I think Baelish, who is much smarter and subtler, can cuckold Jon Arryn with ease. I personally like the idea of Arryn obsessed with the royal bastards and unaware that he's got a little cuckoo's egg in his own nest.

[BlackberryJam]

Winds Winds Winds Winds.

 

The more I delve into the fandom, the more it seems to me that there are too many fan theories, hints dropped, characters and story lines for it all to ever be wrapped up in a satisfying manner. Who is Robin's father? How did Howland Reed beat Arthur Dayne? Who was the father of Ashara's child? How did Elia really feel about Lyanna? Why were Jaime and Lewyn the only ones left in KL during the rebellion? What is Doran's plan? Is Sandor alive? Who is Septon Meribald? What happened to Benjen Stark? Is Brienne a descendant of Duncan the tall? 

And on and on...It's like if GRRM stopped adding characters and story lines right now, it would still take 4K pages to wrap it all up.

[Unknown poster]

Winds Winds Winds Winds.

 

The more I delve into the fandom, the more it seems to me that there are too many fan theories, hints dropped, characters and story lines for it all to ever be wrapped up in a satisfying manner. Who is Robin's father? How did Howland Reed beat Arthur Dayne? Who was the father of Ashara's child? How did Elia really feel about Lyanna? Why were Jaime and Lewyn the only ones left in KL during the rebellion? What is Doran's plan? Is Sandor alive? Who is Septon Meribald? What happened to Benjen Stark? Is Brienne a descendant of Duncan the tall? 

And on and on...It's like if GRRM stopped adding characters and story lines right now, it would still take 4K pages to wrap it all up.

I have my doubts that all those questions will be answered, because I think a lot of them are examples of readers putting more importance on a issue than the author himself. I'm pretty sure the question about Jaime has already been answered, however. Areys wanted him in the city, almost to act as a hostage to insure Tywin and his armies didnt decide to throw in with Robert. There is a chapter in AFFC where Jaime recalls his last conversation with Rheagar, before the former goes to meet his fate on the Trident, and is told as much.

[SeanC]

Actually there is. That falls under treason, and puts it on the level of what Jaime Lannister has been doing. Nevertheless, if Jaime Lannister can manage a 15 year incestuous affair that produces three royal bastards, and never be officially caught even though it's more or less known to everyone what he's doing, I think Baelish, who is much smarter and subtler, can cuckold Jon Arryn with ease. I personally like the idea of Arryn obsessed with the royal bastards and unaware that he's got a little cuckoo's egg in his own nest.

The reason Jaime and Cersei weren't "officially" caught was because everybody who found out before Jon Arryn and Stannis were working their own agenda, not because of anything Jaime or Cersei did.  I'm dubious that Littlefinger would ever risk giving his enemies such an obvious means to destroy his standing, since if it became at all known his career would be over.

Edited July 29, 2015 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

The reason Jaime and Cersei weren't "officially" caught was because everybody who found out before Jon Arryn and Stannis were working their own agenda, not because of anything Jaime or Cersei did.  I'm dubious that Littlefinger would ever risk giving his enemies such an obvious means to destroy his standing, since if it became at all known his career would be over.

I got the impression that Jaime and Cersei were pretty discreet about their relationship overall. When I consider how long it took Jon Arryn to piece it together, Robert not figuring it out, Jaime's unhappiness about the secrecy and things like not being able to hold his children, the way the kids seem like they have no idea, the rumour not really taking off until after the letter from Stannis, etc.

Yes, were there reckless episodes like when they had sex next to a drunk Robert but overall I think they knew better than to be too blatant about their affair.

I don't think it's impossible that Littlefinger could have had discreet sexual encounters with Lysa. If nothing else, I can see Lysa throwing caution to the wind anytime they happened to have the chance to be alone.

[SeanC]

In addition to Stannis and Jon Arryn, you have Renly (and by extension some of the Tyrells), Littlefinger, Varys, and Pycelle all knowing -- basically the whole Small Council other than Selmy.  In Varys' case it's because he's got spies hidden in the walls, but that isn't so with the others.  Pycelle covered because he's a Lannister stooge, but the other three just sought to use the information for their own benefit.

[BlackberryJam]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I understand why Jaime was in KL. I don't know why the rest of them were not. I mean, three KG at the ToJ? Who ordered them there? And what were they supposed to defend? And if they were there to defend a potential heir to the Throne (Lyanna preggers with Jon), did Aerys know and was cool with that? And why wasn't there more protection for Elia and the existing heirs to the Throne, including Aerys' other children? How did Rhaegar (not the king) get three KGs to ToJ and keep them there to fight to the death to protect...the...what? Fetal third in line to the Throne? I mean Rhaegar dies at the Trident, leaving the King alive, then Aegon, then Viserys, then the other Aegon, all in line to rule before an unborn child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Why are the KG even there, leaving the other heirs essentially unprotected?

 

Not why is Jaime there...but why isn't anyone else?

[benteen]

I've wondered that too.  If they were there instead of at the Blackwater, wouldn't that be considered oathbreaking?

[Unknown poster]

I've wondered that too.  If they were there instead of at the Blackwater, wouldn't that be considered oathbreaking?

I agree, having 3 Knights of the Kingsguard at the TOJ seems excessive, but I assume they were sent there by Rheagar, with Areys blessing, or at least, not over his objections. We know Rheagar's obsession with Lyanna, and the PTWP, so I guess I can believe he would send 3 of the best Knights in the world to guard them.

[benteen]

Ned never considered them oathbreakers either so I would guess they had Aerys permission.  But if they chose the prince over the king, they would be.

[BlackberryJam]

And now that it hits me, Rhaella was pregnant too. So if Dany had been a boy that knocks Lyanna spawn further down the line. And Lyanna could have been having a girl anyway.

Honestly, I've never seen a real explanation for the KG at the ToJ that really made logical sense...except they were all (led by Rhaegar) secretly planning to rebel against Aerys. And that Rhaegar was willing to sacrifice Elia, his kids, his mother and his siblings to do it. And they left Jaime there with Aerys hoping he'd get killed. But Jaime unwittingly foils the plan and kills Aerys, saving himself and messing up the plan.

Had Jaime died at the hands of Robert and Ned, Tywin probably would have pulled his support and turned back to support the Targs. Rhaegar, with Lannister forces and his father dead, takes KL, with his new wife and child safe at ToJ. Only Rhaegar dies at the Trident. The ToJ is isolated and they don't hear word until it's too late. Jaime kills Aerys leaving Tywin still able to support Robert. Ned takes a force to ToJ, the KG there have nothing left to defend except this possible random Targaryen heir.

Only...that's a convoluted mess of a story.

I think it's a pretty big plot hole.

[The Mormegil]

And now that it hits me, Rhaella was pregnant too. So if Dany had been a boy that knocks Lyanna spawn further down the line. And Lyanna could have been having a girl anyway.

 

Dany being born male wouldn't have affected the order.

[BlackberryJam]

Why wouldn't it? At that point, Rhaegar is dead but Aerys is alive. So...that means Viserys is next. 

 

The KG at the ToJ should be protecting Viserys and Rhaella's unborn child (possibly male) to protect then line of succession. Then it goes Rhaegar's child male child, Aegon. THEN it goes to Rhaegar's unborn child. 

 

There is no way that Lyanna's unborn child ranks above Rhaella's unborn child.

[The Mormegil]

Aegon (and an unborn brother if legitimate) would be ahead of Viserys (and any younger brothers he had).

 

If the Heir (Rheagar) dies you then go to the Heirs Sons and not the Heirs brothers.

[nksarmi]

While GRRM uses his own rules of succession, does it matter if Rheagar or the Mad King died first?

 

I mean if Rheagar died say years before the Mad King, I believe his younger brother would become the crown prince as opposed to Rheagar's son, am I right?  If that is the case, than Viserys would have become the heir and since he had no children or living brothers, Dany has the strongest claim to the throne.

 

Since the Mad King did not die first, I believe that even if Aegon of the books is real and/or Jon is Rheagar's son (legitimate or otherwise) that Dany's claim still ranks above both of theirs.  Therefore, since Rheagar was in battle - and therefore his life was at risk - but presumably the King was safe in the capital - I would think the King himself and his other children would take precedent as heirs to the throne. 

 

But since the Mad King was only killed by betrayal and his son and daughter escaped (and could have claimed the throne if any of the high families had supported them) - I guess that shows that they didn't need Kings Guard.

[The Mormegil]

While GRRM uses his own rules of succession, does it matter if Rheagar or the Mad King died first?

 

I mean if Rheagar died say years before the Mad King, I believe his younger brother would become the crown prince as opposed to Rheagar's son, am I right? 

 

No, you're not right.

 

Real world example.

 

If Prince Charles dies before Queen Elisabeth II then his Son William becomes Heir and not his Brother Andrew.

 

Andrew is in fact behind William (who is followed by his two Children) and Williams brother Harry.

 

There have of course been cases (in Westeros and the real world) where the order has been ignored (Aegon V becoming King for example) but if you keep to the  actual order any legitimate sons of Rhaegar would be before Viserys (and Dany).

 

That's why Aegon (if the real deal) is a big thing, his claim to the Throne is better than Dany's.

Edited July 29, 2015 by The Mormegil

[nksarmi]

No, you're not right.

 

Real world example.

 

If Prince Charles dies before Queen Elisabeth II then his Son William becomes Heir and not his Brother Andrew.

 

Andrew is in fact behind William (who is followed by his two Children) and Williams brother Harry.

 

There have of course been cases (in Westeros and the real world) where the order has been ignored (Aegon V becoming King for example) but if you keep to the  actual order any legitimate sons of Rhaegar would be before Viserys (and Dany).

 

That's why Aegon (if the real deal) is a big thing, his claim to the Throne is better than Dany's.

Ok I see that the lines of succession for England does go through the first born son, but I'm not sure that has always born out in history.  So that would put Aegon above Dany if GRRM's world works the same way.

 

Now to be honest, I don't think it's a big deal in the books because the natural way to resolve that would be for Aegon and Dany to marry and combine forces to take the throne - I doubt anyone would give two cents about her marriage to a Meereen in this instance.  Now I know that isn't what Doran had planned, but since Quentin feed himself to a dragon, I think all bets are off. 

 

But all the same, during this point in the books, all I need to explain why the King's Guard are at the Tower of Joy is to believe that Rhaegar ordered them there.  What I want to know is what would make them battle Ned to the death to allow him access to his sister because that seems like the stuff religious zealously is made of.  Unless at that point, they knew the child was a male and they were fighting to have control over any claimant to the throne since they didn't know who might survive the rebellion and who would die.

[proserpina65]

What I want to know is what would make them battle Ned to the death to allow him access to his sister because that seems like the stuff religious zealously is made of.

 

My take on this: they were told by Rhaegar that it was their duty to protect Lyanna from anyone connected with the rebellion, even her own brother, at the cost of their own lives if necessary.  With the heavy implication that said orders came from the King, of course.

 

{Edited to note that I also think this is one of those questions for which we are probably never going to get a definitive answer.}

Edited July 29, 2015 by proserpina65

[Chris24601]

That's not how succession works... The succession line would go King > King's first Son > Son's first son > Son's second/third/etc. son > King's second Son > second son's first son, etc...

Basically, the moment Rhaegar had a son, every one of his children became next in line before any of the king's younger sons. Presuming R+L=J is true and he's legitimate then the only one's ahead of him were the King, Rhaegar and his older half-brother... all of whom were dead by the time Ned reached the Tower of Joy.

The three Kingsguard were there because the KING was there and they were guarding him with their lives (particularly if word had reached them that Robert and his allies were killing every Targ they could find and the King, his son and Jon's elder brother were already dead). Ned was Robert's closest ally and they would NEVER take the chance that he'd disobey Robert's command.

[nksarmi]

That's not how succession works... The succession line would go King > King's first Son > Son's first son > Son's second/third/etc. son > King's second Son > second son's first son, etc...

Basically, the moment Rhaegar had a son, every one of his children became next in line before any of the king's younger sons. Presuming R+L=J is true and he's legitimate then the only one's ahead of him were the King, Rhaegar and his older half-brother... all of whom were dead by the time Ned reached the Tower of Joy.

The three Kingsguard were there because the KING was there and they were guarding him with their lives (particularly if word had reached them that Robert and his allies were killing every Targ they could find and the King, his son and Jon's elder brother were already dead). Ned was Robert's closest ally and they would NEVER take the chance that he'd disobey Robert's command.

I think people were asking why they were there to BEGIN with rather than protecting the King (who was very much alive when they were sent to the ToJ), Rheagor, the heir, (who was in battle at the time), or Aegon who was also alive with his mother (and third in line to the throne) rather than sitting in the ToJ as Lyanna (who as some have said could have given birth to a girl) gave birth. 

 

They KG was not sent to the ToJ after all those other people were dead.  And the implication was that Ned found his sister right after she had given birth so it wasn't even clear that they were there to protect the King at all when they were sent.

 

Personally, it's not a big deal to me (I would much rather have the what happened to Benjen Stark question answered) but I understand why it bothers some.

[nksarmi]

That's not how succession works... The succession line would go King > King's first Son > Son's first son > Son's second/third/etc. son > King's second Son > second son's first son, etc...

Basically, the moment Rhaegar had a son, every one of his children became next in line before any of the king's younger sons. Presuming R+L=J is true and he's legitimate then the only one's ahead of him were the King, Rhaegar and his older half-brother... all of whom were dead by the time Ned reached the Tower of Joy.

The three Kingsguard were there because the KING was there and they were guarding him with their lives (particularly if word had reached them that Robert and his allies were killing every Targ they could find and the King, his son and Jon's elder brother were already dead). Ned was Robert's closest ally and they would NEVER take the chance that he'd disobey Robert's command.

I think people were asking why they were there to BEGIN with rather than protecting the King (who was very much alive when they were sent to the ToJ), Rheagor, the heir, (who was in battle at the time), or Aegon who was also alive with his mother (and third in line to the throne) rather than sitting in the ToJ as Lyanna (who as some have said could have given birth to a girl) gave birth. 

 

They KG was not sent to the ToJ after all those other people were dead.  And the implication was that Ned found his sister right after she had given birth so it wasn't even clear that they were there to protect the King at all when they were sent.

 

Personally, it's not a big deal to me (I would much rather have the what happened to Benjen Stark question answered) but I understand why it bothers some.

[John Potts]

Yeah, presumably Rhaegar reassigned "his" guards (ie. those assigned to the heir to the throne) to defending his (then unborn) child (assuming R+L=J, obviously). They defended him with their lives because, well, that was their sworn duty. Whether this was a prelude to him leading a coup on the throne is even more speculative (though still possible).

 

My problem is, if that is what GRRM intends to reveal (and until of Winds of Winter - or possibly Book 7 comes out, that's still speculation) then who in the Seven Hells could possibly reveal it? Just about everyone involved is now dead. I guess Bran could reveal it via the Weirwood Internet, but who's going to believe some crippled half tree boy!?

 

BlackberryJam Winds Winds Winds Winds.

 

Shouldn't that be "Words are wind"? Because you know how important GRRM thinks that saying is!

[SilverShadow]

IIRC Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy and coudl reveal any necessary information.

[benteen]

I've read GRRM respond to a fan online that Howland wasn't present when Lyanna asked Ned to promise her. 

 

Still, he would likely be able to quickly put two-and-two together when he saw the baby.

[Hecate7]

The reason Jaime and Cersei weren't "officially" caught was because everybody who found out before Jon Arryn and Stannis were working their own agenda, not because of anything Jaime or Cersei did.  I'm dubious that Littlefinger would ever risk giving his enemies such an obvious means to destroy his standing, since if it became at all known his career would be over.

 

It's not as if he never takes risks. His various murders, as I've pointed out, have all had accomplices and plenty of chance of failure. Pretty risky to have a completely nut case like Lyssa Arryn as your accomplice. Fairly risky to have a powerful woman like Olenna knowing your role in a regicide, too. Plus who knows how many Tyrells and their servants also know?

I think it's actually just fairly easy to conceal adultery. 65% of women and 80% of men cheat, and most of the time nobody finds out. I think if anyone knew how to hide an affair, it would be Littlefinger.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Hecate7

[BlackberryJam]

I think people were asking why they were there to BEGIN with rather than protecting the King (who was very much alive when they were sent to the ToJ), Rheagor, the heir, (who was in battle at the time), or Aegon who was also alive with his mother (and third in line to the throne) rather than sitting in the ToJ as Lyanna (who as some have said could have given birth to a girl) gave birth. 

 

They KG was not sent to the ToJ after all those other people were dead.  And the implication was that Ned found his sister right after she had given birth so it wasn't even clear that they were there to protect the King at all when they were sent.

 

I'm wrong on the succession, but THIS THIS THIS. THIS is the question. When these guys are sent to ToJ, there is a very much alive King, a Crown Prince, and a third in line with Aegon, Rhaegar's son. There is no justifiable reason for the KG, who are sworn to Aerys, to accept an order from Rhaegar (who has Lewyn, Darry and Barristan, sorry I originally thought Lewyn was in KL, but he was at the Trident and kill there). So Rhaegar has his own protection. Rhaegar has three others, Whent, Hightower and Dayne, at ToJ, leaving Jaime alone in KL to protect Aerys, THE ACTUAL KING, and Aegon, the Crown Prince's heir.

 

It just makes no freaking sense at all. "We are the Kingsguard, sworn to the King, except we aren't actually protecting the King at all, but doing his son's bidding and protecting some pregnant chick locked in a tower, KG out!"

 

But I think there are a lot of parts of the books which are just going to get handwaved away. So, when a thread goes into, "who is the father of Robin Arryn," all I can think is "Martin probably has no intention of ever following up on that anyway, because it's not important to endgame."

 

Which I find frustrating. I know Martin calls himself a gardener as a writer, but he should have been pruning and weeding all along. Instead, there are so many unresolved questions and hanging threads and it's we are never going to know.

 

It makes me want to bang my head.

[SeanC]

The sequence of events with Rhaegar and Lyanna is clearly going to be explained much more in the future.  But the Kingsguard ultimately do whatever the king tells them, and Aerys never expresses, as far as we know, any belief that those three are traitors (surely that would have come up in Jaime or Barristan's POVs), so clearly he must at least have consented to whatever the arrangement was.

[vibeology]

I don't think it's impossible that Littlefinger could have had discreet sexual encounters with Lysa. If nothing else, I can see Lysa throwing caution to the wind anytime they happened to have the chance to be alone.

It's a little crude but there are certainly things Littlefinger could have done that would not result in a a baby but would have kept Lysa hooked. I'm very willing to believe that there was some intimacy without sex over the years. But Martin does not need to write another bad sex scene to confirm that for me.

Also of all the hanging threads I'm pretty sure we'll get more answers for the ToJ but my biggest question is Benjen. I just want to know what happened to him.

[The Mormegil]

IIRC Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy and coudl reveal any necessary information.

 

At least two people find Ned sitting with Lyanna's body (and presumably new born son).

 

We know this as Ned remembers "they" finding him.

 

One of these is no doubt Howland Reed, another is likely Wylla.

 

We are told that only Ned and Howland survive from the party of seven they came with so the other person/people that make up "they" were likely at the ToJ already.

 

We know Wylla is part of the cover up (as she claims or at least doesn't deny that Jon is her son) and as it's likely there was a midwife there with Lyanna when she was pregnant it makes sense for this to be Wylla.

 

So Wylla is probably one person who knows pretty much everything.

 

There may well have been lots of other people at the ToJ as we also know that Ned has the tower torn down to make Carns for the fallen. It's unlikely that this demolition was carried out by just Ned, Howland and Wylla so there must have been others around as well.

 

Of course these extra people could be more of Neds men who arrive at the tower a little later.

[Chris24601]

My problem is, if that is what GRRM intends to reveal (and until of Winds of Winter - or possibly Book 7 comes out, that's still speculation) then who in the Seven Hells could possibly reveal it? Just about everyone involved is now dead. I guess Bran could reveal it via the Weirwood Internet, but who's going to believe some crippled half tree boy!?

As has been mentioned Howland Reed is theoretically aware of Jon's parentage. I believe GRRM even stated that the reason we've not met Reed before now is that he would clear up certain things he wanted hidden for the time being. Its also possible he told his kids given they'd set out on a wild spirit quest to save the world.

Another prospect, at least in the books, is that Jon's dreams of the Stark crypts are pointing him to some proof of his heritage, perhaps something that Ned placed in Lyanna's tomb and that's why he must go there to fulfill his destiny?

Alternately, this might be GRRM's subversion of the destined king trope. Yeah, he's the king by bloodright, but it ends up not mattering at all as civilization crashes and he ends up king simply because he led the survivors to victory.

[benteen]

I wasn't sure where to put this so I put it here...

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/07/30/breaking-hbo-says-game-of-thrones-to-run-at-least-eight-seasons/

 

Don't know how I feel about this.  I've thought for a while that they would likely need more than seven seasons to complete things.  I was kind of hoping for a split season for Season 7.  Basically airing 7-8 episodes in the first half and another 7-8 in the second.  At least eight season has me concerned that the show will start dragging like the book.  Add to that the decline in quality in Season 5 and D & D's extremely mixed record when writing original stuff for the show adds to my concern.

[DigitalCount]

Eight seasons likely means eight books too, ugh. This is not great.

[Chris24601]

Not necessarily... GRRM's books are monsters and when there's actually dense plot elements to be explored (such as Storm of Swords) they took two seasons to cover it while they jumped over just about all of books 4 and 5, which are renowed for their filler in a single season.

 

If we're hopefully past the filler stage and we start getting some real movement in the books it might be another case of Storm of Swords where they just need more than 10 episodes to cover everything that happens in Winds and/or Dreams.

 

I will say though that it does adjust my projections of what's coming for season six. If they've got 30 or even 40 episodes to go instead of just 20 they won't need to push to the end-state quite so quickly. It means I won't expect the Walkers to reach the Wall next season since filming in the snow for everyone would be a budgetary nightmare.

 

It also adjusts my projections for which way Sansa will head. If there were only 20 episodes left I'd expect her to go north to the Wall to start the Stark reunion and get most of the major northern 'good guys' in the same place (just as I'd expect all the plots in the south to start converging on King's Landing and all the plots in the east to result in Dany's forces coming to Braavos where Arya can be tied into things). But if there are 30-40 episodes left I instead see Sansa joining Brienne and Pod and heading south to the Riverlands where they can join up with the BwB plotline and with Sansa and Blackfish possibly acting as a de-composited version of Lady Stoneheart (seeking revenge on the Freys and Boltons).

 

Perhaps after Myrcella dies Jaime splits from Cersei and we get his Riverland's plot after all... because there's time for it with 30-40 episodes left. The season could then end with Brienne being put into the situation of having to retrieve Jaime just as she did in the books.

 

This also makes it likely that rather than Jon and Sansa, it will be Jon and Bran (via tree) who are the first Starks to reunite and that Jon, Davos and Mel will end up with the Wildlings (since I don't think he'd be safe amongst the Night Watch... stab me to death once and its shame on you... stab me to death twice and its my own damn fault).

[benteen]

The extra season does have me concerned about more filler.  Since they blew through most of GRRM's filler (in several cases wisely) I'm concerned about D&D writing original stuff going forward.  Like I said, I'm hoping this means Season 7 and 8 will be shorter.

 

But hey, this likely means more Ironborn!  Isn't that exciting? *rolls eyes*

[ElizaD]

I got the feeling it would be eight seasons when there was an Ironborn casting call, but "at least eight" doesn't sound good. They've rushed through the books, which made sense when the show seemed to be aiming at seven seasons, but season 5's filler and choices were the worst yet. Show Dorne and Winterfell don't inspire a lot of confidence: the thought of three more years of flawless superhuman Ramsay getting away with everything is awful (I'm remembering Alfie's interview about the Boltons being a superpower for years to come and cringing). The good thing about the show was that it seemed to be cutting extra complications like Aegon and getting to the invasions of the Others and Dany faster than the books. Now it's looking like Meereen, Dothraki and bad pussy filler will be stretched out.

 

If there's a season 9, I hope it's Robert's Rebellion or something like that.

[benteen]

At least 8 would be a ****ing disaster and would stretch things out as badly as the books have.

 

I have a feeling this decision is completely HBO-imposed.  Maybe if it had been known sooner, D&D wouldn't have blown through the Battle of Winterfell so quickly.  Stanni's fate was a rushed mess and it didn't have to be.  Maybe they could have better really developed the North Remember stuff (though it looks like that's happening this season).  Then again, the only thing they seemed interested in this season was getting Sansa to the North so she can be a victim again, this time to SUPER RAMSAY!

 

I had no confidence in D&D when it comes to writing original material for the show (though they've certainly had their moments).  I hope this also wasn't to give GRRM more time (I doubt it though because HBO is only concerned about HBO).  But be that as it may, GRRM has been given ANOTHER reprieve to finish the damn story.  So naturally he'll fail again to do so.

 

The HBO president is playing up the "Jon Snow is dead" card but again, I don't believe it.  An extra season is further proof of that.

Edited July 31, 2015 by benteen

[Audreythe2nd]

See, this announcement just makes me think that the ending of this story is more complicated than I originally thought (perhaps naively). I always kind of envisioned Jon being reborn and helping to defeat the others and the series ending with Dany on the throne, etc. But maybe they need an entire season of Dany actually conquering or ruling in Westeros, and then another season of defeating white walkers (for example). Plus there are a ton of interesting threads that have nothing to do with "endgame" that will probably be dealt with next season (the downfall/madness of Cersei, Jaime and Brienne and whatever else might happen in the Riverlands, the end of the Boltons, not to mention Euron being introduced... and that doesn't even touch on Arya or Sansa. Or Jon and Bran!) As long as they've planned for this eventuality of eight seasons in the storylines it's fine. I'm mainly just pissed because it's an extra year of my life I have to obsess over not finding out what happens in the end.

[nksarmi]

I wonder if they would have killed Jon OR Stannis this season if eight seasons was always the plan.  Because as others have said, they cut the best parts of the North story which could have been really interesting given their choice to have Sansa there.  And there is probably stuff in the upcoming book with Stannis, Theon, etc... that the show CAN'T do now (unless they are reversing course and about to bring Stannis back since we never saw him die). 

 

This is why I really think they need to make a decision with how many seasons they are going to do and just plot it out - at least to the point where they get to GRRM's ending.  Then if HBO still wants more and people want to do more - they can go beyond the content of GRRM's plan in additional seasons (unless his ending really is everyone dies, the end).

 

At any rate, if we say they plan on eight and think about this backwards....

 

I suspect the last season will be a lot of death and destruction until Jon (assuming we are right about him) and Dany finally win at the end.  I think that means that Jon and Dany will need to meet as equals either at the end of season seven or in the midst of the chaos in season eight. 

 

If that is what the last season is all about, then the season before that probably needs to resolve more "minor" squabbles like all the KL drama, the defeat of the Boltons, etc....  So I could see season seven being the season where Dany comes back and takes KL and Jon builds an alliance in the North, finds Rickon, reunites with Sansa (maybe) and defeats the Boltons.

 

So season six would be the transition season.  It should have Jon's resurrection and reveal as the prince who was promised.  It will hopefully have some kind of reunion between him and Bran (and hopefully wolf dreams).  I think Jon will spend a lot of time with wildlings in season six.

 

Sansa would hopefully wander around with Theon, Brie, and Pod without getting hunted down by Ramses.  It would make sense if her story crosses with the BWWB and making the Frey's pay, etc...  And perhaps we will get Jamie being sent there for that story.  I don't know what LF would be doing in all of this, but I hope by the time she crosses paths with him again, she is ready to kill him.

 

I suppose in KL, we will get the resolution of what is going to happen to Cersei, Marg, and Loras and maybe Kevin will assume enough command to start putting things right - earning his death by Varys.  I suppose there is also some kind of messed up Trystane/Dorne plot to be had for season six, but I think they have royally messed that up so I'm not all that interested, but whatever.

 

I do wonder if the Ironborn plot is going to tie in with KL or be the plot device to bring Dany back to Westerous.

 

I think for now, we will see Tyrion rule in Meereen, the bro hunt for Dany (boring), Dany and the Dorthraki, and if I get my Christmas wish - Ayra will be sent to Meereen for some reason and rather than kill anyone, she will join team dragon before they come back to Westerous in season seven.

 

If they choose to do it right, season six could be great without too much "filler" but I agree with everyone who says the Winterfell story and Dorne story of season five leaves me with a lot of concerns.

[FemmyV]

 

Yeah, presumably Rhaegar reassigned "his" guards (ie. those assigned to the heir to the throne) to defending his (then unborn) child (assuming R+L=J, obviously). They defended him with their lives because, well, that was their sworn duty. Whether this was a prelude to him leading a coup on the throne is even more speculative (though still possible).

 

   What about all the info about Rheagar believing all the prophesies? And Aerys, possibly right along with him? If they both believed Lyanna was carrying TPTWP, that's reason enough to allow three KG out of the city to protect them.

 

 

My problem is, if that is what GRRM intends to reveal (and until of Winds of Winter - or possibly Book 7 comes out, that's still speculation) then who in the Seven Hells could possibly reveal it? Just about everyone involved is now dead. I guess Bran could reveal it via the Weirwood Internet, but who's going to believe some crippled half tree boy!?

 

    Bran's an option. Seeing as though most of the watching world has been clued in, wouldn't the best way to make it remain dramatic for viewing, is to watch it unfold for someone who's going to be surprised, on our behalf? Jon would be the first choice, but how is he going to find out, isolated in the North? Unless he outright bumps into Howland Reed, I don't see that happening.  GRRM has gone on record that H Reed will make an appearance by series end, but I don't think it was specified whether or not that would be in flashback. If flashback, Bran is the most likely.

[Advance35]

I can't wait to see what they are going to do with the extra time they now have.  Hopefully the storylines for LF,  Tyrion, The Tyrells, Sansa, Ramsay, Roose and Cersei (even if she has been white-washed to oblivion) are all given time to breathe since they aren't in a crunch any longer.   Jon and Dany will always be King and Queen of the Prom (even if they are two of my least favorites) but now hopefully they'll be time to give to the other worthwhile characters as well.

[nksarmi]

The more I think about this, the more I think one of the biggest favors D&D could do for us is put Ayra in Meereen with Tyrion.  I came to the show first and then the books and I think it was an excellent choice to put Ayra as Tywin's cupbearer in season two (instead of Roose I think).  Those really were some of the best scenes and I think having Ayra interact with Tyrion would be gold. 

 

Plus I think Ayra and Dany would make for fascinating - and I mean I could read a whole book about these two interacting and learning from each other - interactions.  They are both young and have been through some serious crap and survived by sheer will at times, and I wonder how their world views would match and how they would differ.  I want to see Ayra join team Dany/ team dragon sooooo bad and I would give them bonus points if Ayra taught Dany a thing or two about killing/sticking them with the pointy end/etc....

 

So even though I'm 100% certain it would be off book, if much of season six involved Tyrion, Arya, and later Dany together - I could get interested in Meereen in a way I've never been before.

[John Potts]

FemmV Bran's an option. Seeing as though most of the watching world has been clued in, wouldn't the best way to make it remain dramatic for viewing, is to watch it unfold for someone who's going to be surprised, on our behalf?

 

 

Except he's then got to convince other people of that. If the weren't already die hard Stark supporters  would imagine most people would be rather like Jamie's response to Stannis declaring that Joffrey was illegitimate ("Which would make Stannis the rightful King - how convenient!"), "Oh, you've had some mystical vision that makes your half brother the rightful ruler of the even Kingdoms? Please allow me to risk my life fighting the people who think they are on the word of some entirely unbiased cripple!"