Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Maximum Taco]

I could live with out Arianne being in the show, but want Quentyn  - not only does he free the dragons, but he shows Dany that she does have some support in Westeros.  I HATED the ironborn chapters, could live without those, but we probably need Victarions horn.  Want Tyrion's travels REALLY condensed, though I liked all Arya's chapters.  I also want fake Arya, she is kind of pivotal to Winterfell and Theon storyline. Plus it would be great to see some characters reactions when they meet her and they know who the real Arya is (maybe that is why Brienne met her in the show?)

 

I hope the dragons become more tame.  Laughed with my husband that I didn't get upset over any characters death's in the books, but got teary when Dany locked up her babies.

 

I want Quentyn too, but I want him cause I want to see another guy (a more important one than Pyat Pree) die of terrible dragonfire burns.

 

I mean how can D&D possibly pass that up?

[Holmbo]

I think Tyrion not being on the throne yet is basically a case of delayed gratification.

 

 

On the show, I feel like we're supposed to think Tyrion doesn't want the Throne or anything attached to it. Even in season 2 when he was at his most powerful, it seemed like it was spun as being more about helping the people/wanting to be good at his job than being about power.

I think both of these things could be reasons for why we didn't see Tyrion on the throne in season 2.

My take on it was that the writers wants to tease the audience that Tyrion might end up as ruler. I don't think that will ever happen but I think they want to hint at the possibility. So they wont have him sitting on the throne because it wouldn't be real.Maybe that ties into delayed gratification.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Holmbo

[Hecate7]

GRRM won't put him on the throne until we hate him and want him dead so badly we can't wait for him to be torn apart by wolves or dragons. Then he'll put him on the throne and wolves or dragons will tear him apart, because this story is about a couple of things. 1) Love will kill you. Cersei said it. Lady loved the Starks, and they killed her. Robb loved Talisa and it got him killed. Shae loved Tyrion and it got her killed. Not sure what Joffrey loved--perhaps Margaery? But that got him killed. Lysa loved Littlefinger and he killed her. Tywin loved Jaime and Jaime freed Tyrion to kill him. Jojen loved Bran. Renly loved everybody. Ned loved Sansa and it got him killed. Catelyn loved her family and it got her killed

 

(Arya will live forever, for obvious reasons. Littlefinger's involvement with Kat will eventually get him kiilled, but it'll probably take a very long time, because GRRM likes to keep destructive characters alive for as long as possible.)

 

2) Nobody is as good as you think they are.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Hecate7

[Holmbo]

I can't see him ever ending up on the throne. But I agree that if he did it would be just to twart our wishes. Oh you wanted Tyrion on the throne? Here you got it. I don't think book Tyrion is a very popular candidate for the throne though. It's only in the show I think. 

 

 

Shae loved Tyrion and it got her killed

More like: Tyrion loved Tysha and it got Shae killed ;)
Not loving anyone is no guarantee cause you can still fall victim from something started by someone elses love. I think it's just that love is what drives the characters and what drives them is what kills them or others.

[ElizaD]

So Arianne is indeed gone. While it doesn't confirm that she was cut because she's too closely connected to Aegon and they've decided to get rid of the plot, I believe that's the most likely reason.

 

Book Trystane sounds like a nice kid, but I hope TV Trystane gets roasted so that Doran can legitimize Oscar nominee Obara Sand and give the show a female ruler who's not Dany.

 

With the way GOT has handled Stannis/Melisandre I was expecting the High Septon to be all "look at this guy, religion is baaaad news!" all the time but I guess I should have remembered that this fanatic is part of a Lannister storyline, so they got an awesome actor who can deliver nuance and great confrontations with Lena Headey.

 

This round of casting news focused on Dorne. Are they filming that first? I still think there will be a Greyjoy brother to mess with the Reach offscreen and to confront Yara onscreen about her escape from Ramsay's hellhounds (I've seen a lot of references to someone from GOT saying it'll come back to haunt Yara).

[Oscirus]

1) Love will kill you. Cersei said it. Lady loved the Starks, and they killed her. Robb loved Talisa and it got him killed. Shae loved Tyrion and it got her killed. Not sure what Joffrey loved--perhaps Margaery? But that got him killed.  Tywin loved Jaime and Jaime freed Tyrion to kill him. Jojen loved Bran. Renly loved everybody. Ned loved Sansa and it got him killed.

 

I'd argue that none of these were based on love. Lady just happened  to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when Joffrey was eliminated.

Robb was arrogant enough to believe that he was going to be able to break his word to an ally and not apologize until he needed help from said ally.

Shae's stupidity got her killed. She had numerous chances to escape yet she wouldn't do so.

Joffrey's cruelness got him killed. Well that and Littlefinger's desire for the throne.

Tywin's hatred of Tyrion  got him killed.

Jojen sacrificed himself for the greater good.

Renly got killed by magic.

Ned's inflexibility got him killed.

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Let me throw a question out there. With the new cast reveal , does anybody else think that Jamie will continue the trend of taking over things that Kevan did in the book? That would definitely make for a sad season finale.  But it would be an interesting way to go with the character.

[Avaleigh]

Omg Oscirus, don't even joke about that. ;-p

 

Seriously, I can't have Jaime die before the final book/season. I think I could deal with just about anything else but I honestly think that a premature death for Jaime could be one of the few things to keep me from wanting to finish the series. By premature of course I mean before he meets up with Tyrion and Cersei again. The Tyrion factor isn't much of a thing in the show anymore unfortunately but the Cersei factor is still pretty important IMHO. If Jaime has his final confrontation with Cersei in TWoW I'd be fine with that but they'd have to have the confrontation. Whatever happens I'll be super disappointed if Jaime doesn't end up interacting with his siblings again. I feel like those relationships are just way too important to jump over.

[benteen]

Jaime is too good a character to be killed off by the sixth book.  I think he needs to make it till the end (which is either book 7 or 8 at this point!)  Whatever his fate is at that point, it is...

[Minneapple]

I also think Jaime makes it to the final book. I don't see him surviving to the very end, but I can see him making some kind of big sacrifice to complete his redemption and then dying because of it.

[magdalene]

I'd argue that none of these were based on love. Lady just happened  to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when Joffrey was eliminated.

Robb was arrogant enough to believe that he was going to be able to break his word to an ally and not apologize until he needed help from said ally.

Shae's stupidity got her killed. She had numerous chances to escape yet she wouldn't do so.

Joffrey's cruelness got him killed. Well that and Littlefinger's desire for the throne.

Tywin's hatred of Tyrion  got him killed.

Jojen sacrificed himself for the greater good.

Renly got killed by magic.

Ned's inflexibility got him killed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Let me throw a question out there. With the new cast reveal , does anybody else think that Jamie will continue the trend of taking over things that Kevan did in the book? That would definitely make for a sad season finale.  But it would be an interesting way to go with the character.

I don't think I could continue to follow the story if Jaime died this way. I have kind of resigned myself  that there is no way Jaime is making it out of the story alive but for Jaime to die in such a manner would kill it for me - no pun intended.

[benteen]

To me, Jaime is ultimately on a collision course with Cersei back at King's Landing.  He'll have to survive Lady Stoneheart and resolve his "relationship" with Brienne to do it.

[Holmbo]

 

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Let me throw a question out there. With the new cast reveal , does anybody else think that Jamie will continue the trend of taking over things that Kevan did in the book? That would definitely make for a sad season finale.  But it would be an interesting way to go with the character.

Hmm interesting. But I don't think so. Kevan was killed because he was a competent head of the Lannister family. Unless Jaime leaves the Kingsguard and took up the leadership there'd be no reason to kill him.

I just can't see how they couldn't bring back Kevan this season. If he's not back, when will we know for sure?

[Dev F]

Hmm interesting. But I don't think so. Kevan was killed because he was a competent head of the Lannister family. Unless Jaime leaves the Kingsguard and took up the leadership there'd be no reason to kill him.

I just can't see how they couldn't bring back Kevan this season. If he's not back, when will we know for sure?

 

Another possibility would be to do an arc in which Grand Maester Pycelle's conflicts with Qyburn and Cersei cause him to break with the Lannisters and discover hidden depths of competence, at which point Varys could kill him off in Kevan's place. That would be a very GRRM-esque twist -- a man doomed by his own redemption story.

[Oscirus]

I see what people are saying about how the lack of Jamie in future seasons going forward would suck. It was  just a theory.  It just seems to me that Jamie's story is finished, we know about his true motives for killing the mad king, his sister has officially chosen him, he saved his brother's life, he sent off Brienne to save the Stark girls. I know it's different in the book, but on the show, there's nothing left for him.

 

Another possibility would be to do an arc in which Grand Maester Pycelle's conflicts with Qyburn and Cersei cause him to break with the Lannisters and discover hidden depths of competence, at which point Varys could kill him off in Kevan's place. That would be a very GRRM-esque twist -- a man doomed by his own redemption story.

 

Maester pycelle gets killed by Varys in the book as well around the same time as Kevan so they couldn't replace Kevan with him even if they wanted to. However, I am interested to see how Pycelle is written next season. Now that there's nobody around to keep him in check, he should be a fairly powerful character.

[benteen]

He did seem legitimately angry and disgusted with what Cersei was doing at the end with Qyburn.  I can't see a snake like him getting a redemption angle but then again, this show made me like Thorne so stranger things have happened.  Pycelle "redemption" would be intriguing.  It's been established on the show that he plays up his feeble act and Julian Glover has always done a terrific job with the character.  If they don't want to bring Kevan back into the show (I hope they do of course) then you could have Varys kill him instead.

[Hecate7]

They want us to be sad, but I think there's a difference between being sad when a nice or interesting character dies, and where Margaery was in season 3, where she was more of a central part of King's Landing and positioned as an equal to Cersei.

It's not about being sad. It's about wanting us to be genuinely afraid for all of the characters.

 

They want us to be very invested in characters when they die. Who GRRM would kill, he first makes interesting and sympathetic for about one scene.

[Pete Martell]

It's not about being sad. It's about wanting us to be genuinely afraid for all of the characters.

 

They want us to be very invested in characters when they die. Who GRRM would kill, he first makes interesting and sympathetic for about one scene.

 

I tend to think it's a combo of both. 

 

I do think if they want us to be invested in Margaery's ultimate fate, season 4 wasn't the best way to go about it.

[Avaleigh]

He did seem legitimately angry and disgusted with what Cersei was doing at the end with Qyburn.  I can't see a snake like him getting a redemption angle but then again, this show made me like Thorne so stranger things have happened.

I don't see Pycelle getting a redemption angle so much as a revenge angle. The main thing that I've taken away from show!Pycelle is that the Lannisters treat him like shit and he's supposed to be one of their guys and has more or less always been loyal to the Lannisters. Sure, sometimes he had to side with one Lannister over the other but since the time of Aerys Pycelle has been a help to the Lannister family and I don't really think he doubted his position or the the loyalty he felt the Lannisters had towards him until he was thrown into a black cell by Tyrion.

 

Pycelle *never* got over this treatment in the books or in the show and I think it was the first major crack that made him start thinking about his loyalty to House Lannister. Even though Cersei tried to get him out immediately, the point is that she didn't succeed, and it comes across to Pycelle like she barely cared. He probably let Tywin off of the hook for this one since he wasn't in KL at the time. So we see Pycelle really enjoying it when Tyrion is brought low again after having been Hand of the King. 

 

Tywin comes back to KL and Pycelle seems like he's back to feeling comfortable in his position. He's back to attending small council meetings and trying to hit on girls who are young enough to be his granddaughters. He's basically feeling like things are back to normal but then Cersei gives him shit for his interest in these very young women. She flat out tells him that she finds his behavior to be disgusting and annoying and reminds him about his time in the black cells at the hands of Tyrion. She reminds him that she's more hardcore than Tyrion and asks him to attend to some task that's poised to make him seem like a douchebag whether it was his idea or not. He's completely appalled that he has to be the person who sees that all of the food that could be going to the poor and hungry of KL are instead to be mostly wasted in the kennels. He has no way of coming back and was practically slapped in the face when he dared to remind Cersei that there's a new queen in town. 

 

Then there's Tywin's dismissal of Pycelle during the Tyrion's trial by combat. It may seem like a small thing but Tywin having the musicians wave him off when he's essentially just doing his job the way he was taught to do it seemed like something that Joffrey would have done and I don't think Pycelle appreciated it especially since I get the impression that out of all the Lannisters Tywin was a man he actually respected. It has to feel the worst being marginalized by Tywin. Pycelle at least expects questionable behavior from Tyrion and Cersei but from Tywin I have to imagine that it feels disappointing after some twenty years or more of serving the family.

 

As for Cersei favoring Qyburn--this was the final straw IMO. I think he could have just about dealt with Qyburn being Cersei's pet since Pycelle doesn't really like her anyway, but the fact that she gave away his laboratory to a man who was expelled from the Citadel for doing all kinds of sick shit--Pycelle seemed incensed and I just can't see him ever getting over it. Before I think he just wanted to avoid being on Cersei's bad side but now I think he'd happily take her down if the opportunity were to fall into his lap. He might not be gungho in terms of actively working against her, but I can so see him having the ultimate smirk upon hearing the news of her being arrested and imprisoned.

 

I can maybe even see Margaery picking up on how displaced Pycelle feels and trying to win him over to her side by making him feel important and making him feel as though he's her family's new maester for all intents and purposes.

 

All this stuff is making me wonder--have we yet had a reference to any woman taking moon tea on the show? I'm just curious as to whether or not this is going to be important wrt Margaery's trial since it's really the only bit of evidence against her apart from the physical examination, and we already know the physical exam is pointless and doesn't tell anything. 

 

If Olyvar ends up playing the role of the singer, that still doesn't seem like evidence as IIRC that man was tortured until he basically became nonsensical. I've convinced myself that the faith will convict Margaery but I'm still not sure how it'll come about apart from the High Septon who seems to want to think the worst of her. Also, what's going to make show!Lancel want to suddenly devote himself to the Faith? That's going to feel like it's come out of nowhere especially since Lancel has been MIA for the past two seasons. 

 

I'm so looking forward to Jonathan Pryce in the role. I think the High Septon in the books is a misogynistic bastard of a character but I really want to see what JP can do with the role because I think his scenes with Lena could be among some of the best stuff we get next season. More than anything I can't wait to see the look on her face when he tells her "no". I'm pretty sure she's only heard the word from two people her entire life. Three if we count her mother.

[benteen]

Excellent points and I like the idea of Margaery basically recruiting Pycelle to her cause.  It's one of those things you pick up in the book.  It'd be a good thing to pick up on in the show as well.

 

The only part I will slightly disagree with you on is Pycelle being annoyed at Tywin's dismissal.  I just see Pycelle as Smithers to Tywin's Mister Burns.  I don't think he cared how he was treated by Tywin.

 

If Kevan doesn't come back, Pycelle will likely be the big kill by Varys.  Though I wonder if Varys is even going to have that kill.  Hell, if Aegon isn't on the show, maybe Varys goes straight to Dany although I don't see him not having a plan.  Then again, I didn't see LF not having a plan either and that was the angle the show was going for last season.

[Hecate7]

 

I'd argue that none of these were based on love. Lady just happened  to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when Joffrey was eliminated.

Robb was arrogant enough to believe that he was going to be able to break his word to an ally and not apologize until he needed help from said ally.

Shae's stupidity got her killed. She had numerous chances to escape yet she wouldn't do so.

Joffrey's cruelness got him killed. Well that and Littlefinger's desire for the throne.

Tywin's hatred of Tyrion  got him killed.

Jojen sacrificed himself for the greater good.

Renly got killed by magic.

Ned's inflexibility got him killed.

1) Lady wouldn't have been in the wrong place wrong time had she not loved and trusted the Starks so much that she didn't even flinch when the blade came down.

2) Robb would never have broken his word if he hadn't fallen in love.

3) Shae would have fled sooner, had she not loved Tyrion. (Or perhaps Tywin. Who knows.)

4) Joffrey was cruel and Littlefinger ambitious, for years before his death. It was only when Margaery Tyrell came into it, that Joffrey's cruelty proved fatal. And Joffrey loved being cruel, so there's that.

5) Tyrion wouldn't have been around for Tywin to hate, or to kill Tywin, had Tywin not loved Joanna too much to drown Tyrion at birth like he wanted.

6) Well, you may have a point there, but I'm not sure it would even have been an option, had he and his father not loved the Starks.

7) Stannis would never have killed Renly had Renly not declared for the throne, which he would never have done if not for his love of Loras Tyrell.

8) Ned would have lived inflexibly and indefinitely, had he not loved Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn, which drew him into the role of Hand. He'd have even survived that, had love for Sansa not motivated him to confess rather than insisting on trial by combat. Ned probably would have defeated the Hound.

[Hecate7]

I see what people are saying about how the lack of Jamie in future seasons going forward would suck. It was  just a theory.  It just seems to me that Jamie's story is finished, we know about his true motives for killing the mad king, his sister has officially chosen him, he saved his brother's life, he sent off Brienne to save the Stark girls. I know it's different in the book, but on the show, there's nothing left for him.

 

As long as Cersei is around, there's more to his story. As long as their two children are around, his story's not finished. As long as his paternity is dismissed as a conspiracy theory by anyone, his story isn't finished, IMO. There's plenty to do with Jaime.

[Advance35]

So if the Walk is happening in the upcoming season than that means Kings Landing will need to be a location in EVERY episode doesn't it?    The things I'm looking forward to are Tywin Lannisters funeral (hoping they get Olenna Tyrell back in Kings Landing to push and succeed in getting Margaery married),  Cersei's various rants to Pycelle, Jaimie and the Small Council about Sansa (I think Lena will be awesome with those) and I'm looking forward to the scene where Cersei is put in the noose she had been preparing for Margaery.   I hope they don't white wash Cersei further and we actually see her willingly giving people over to Quyburn for his various experiments.

 

AFFC actually FELT like a dark book, especially the parts of the narrative that occured in Kings Landing, I just pictured the Red Keep as very dark and morbid in look and atmosphere/ambiance.   I hope that comes through on the show.

[cambridgeguy]

 

5) Tyrion wouldn't have been around for Tywin to hate, or to kill Tywin, had Tywin not loved Joanna too much to drown Tyrion at birth like he wanted.

Isn't this more of a "kinslaying is the ultimate sin" rather than loving Joanna?  The show doesn't play it up as much but in the books it is very clear that kinslaying is right up there with breaking the guest right when it comes to horrible crimes. 

 

This also leads to a question from another thread: if Yara had killed Theon to spare him future torture does that qualify as OK or not?  Jojen was clearly toast so Meera was doing a mercy kill but Theon, while in for various sorts of horror, wasn't in immediate danger of death. 

[sev]

 

AFFC actually FELT like a dark book, especially the parts of the narrative that occured in Kings Landing, I just pictured the Red Keep as very dark and morbid in look and atmosphere/ambiance.   I hope that comes through on the show.

Why, I thought the burning of the Tower of the Hand, did light up the atmosphere? ;)

[benteen]

Roose didn't kill Ramsay when he was a baby because of the taboo against kinslaying (this is from the book) but conspired to break guest right.  Maybe guys like him and Tywin don't consider it a sin since technically it was the Freys who broke guest right.  I find it interesting that guys I wouldn't take as being religious in Roose and Tywin do not want to commit the "ultimate sin."  I can see Victarion being that way because he is a believer in the Drowned God.

[Hecate7]

Isn't this more of a "kinslaying is the ultimate sin" rather than loving Joanna?  The show doesn't play it up as much but in the books it is very clear that kinslaying is right up there with breaking the guest right when it comes to horrible crimes. 

That might have been Roose's motive for not killing Ramsey, but on the show Tywin had a whole speech about how he was going to drown Tyrion, but didn't do it because Joanna asked him not to. So in Tywin's case it was more about love for Joanna, than about the kinslaying taboo, at least in the beginning.

[Dev F]

That might have been Roose's motive for not killing Ramsey, but on the show Tywin had a whole speech about how he was going to drown Tyrion, but didn't do it because Joanna asked him not to. So in Tywin's case it was more about love for Joanna, than about the kinslaying taboo, at least in the beginning.

 

I don't recall him saying anything about Joanna in that scene. The whole reason he brings it up is because Tyrion asks him when he ever did something that wasn't in his own interest but just to benefit the family. "The day that you were born," he says. "I wanted to carry you into the sea and let the waves wash you away. Instead, I let you live. And I brought you up as my son. Because you're a Lannister."

[Hecate7]

You're right, Dev F. I'm not sure why I misremembered the scene--perhaps I was conflating it with something in the books, or maybe I just misheard it the first time. All the same, it was Tywin's love of Joanna that made him hate Tyrion so much in the first place. He hates Tyrion because Joanna died giving birth to him, and because an odd-eyed dwarf is hardly a fair trade for a well loved and beautiful wife. Certainly the fact that Tyrion is a dwarf is a factor, but had Joanna lived I think Tywin would have forgiven Tyrion for being a dwarf.

[Avaleigh]

I too thought it was love of Joanna that kept Tywin from killing Tyrion. In the books I thought the kinslaying thing would also have given him pause but in the show that clearly isn't an issue for him. As far as his quote about Tyrion being a Lannister, I think this is about the fact that Joanna

is a Lannister

. In the first season Tywin talks about how Tyrion is a Lannister even if he's the lowest of the Lannisters and I feel like this goes in line with Tywin's doubts about Tyrion's paternity. He's a Lannister but he isn't a full Lannister and he's a dwarf to boot, so that puts him at the bottom of the heap as far as Tywin is concerned.

[sev]

^ If Tywin isn't the father, then Tyrion would be a bastard, despite the fact that he has Lannister blood all the same.

[Avaleigh]

^ If Tywin isn't the father, then Tyrion would be a bastard, despite the fact that he has Lannister blood all the same.

I don't see it as all that different from Ned thinking of Jon as having Stark blood.

[sev]

^ Still, Tyrion wouldn't be a Lannister, he'd be a Hill -  though I don't know if the bastard name system works for noble women's bastard children, too.

 

Mhh, I would have liked to know if Tywin would have considered Joffrey & siblings disgraces or actually be proud that they were 100% of Lannister blood...

Of course the show went for Cersei's shocking confession about the twincest, without any real reaction or response from Tywin...

Edited August 3, 2014 by sev

[Avaleigh]

I don't know, I actually think Tywin would even see Genna's children as Lannisters last name aside. Not only that but I've always felt that one of Tywin's many issues is that he's simply unsure. He can't prove that Tyrion isn't his, he just strongly suspects but because of the laws of men Tyrion is a Lannister to the world for all intents and purposes.

I can't see Tywin being proud about the kids being full Lannister but I don't really see it disturbing him on a personal level, but more in a don't get caught and be stupid about it kind of way. Tywin is pretty down with hypocrisy at the end of the day. He was fine with frequenting prostitutes and being self righteous about them at the same time. Naturally I think he definitely would have wanted Cersei to have at least one of Robert's to throw off suspicion. This isn't to suggest that he'd be pro-incest or anything I just think he'd be more bothered by a weakened claim than by the incest itself. I think Tywin is arrogant enough to believe that the Lannisters have superior genes. I think he feels like they're on a level with the Targaryens in that sense they just don't have the dragons to intimidate the Faith and realm into not judging them. (Again though I don't think he has incestuous ambitions for his family, I just don't think incest is that big of a deal to him in and of itself.)

Thinking about this makes me surprised that Cersei didn't mention the Targaryens when she made her big speech to Jaime about "choosing" him.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Oscirus]

1) Lady wouldn't have been in the wrong place wrong time had she not loved and trusted the Starks so much that she didn't even flinch when the blade came down.

2) Robb would never have broken his word if he hadn't fallen in love.

3) Shae would have fled sooner, had she not loved Tyrion. (Or perhaps Tywin. Who knows.)

4) Joffrey was cruel and Littlefinger ambitious, for years before his death. It was only when Margaery Tyrell came into it, that Joffrey's cruelty proved fatal. And Joffrey loved being cruel, so there's that.

5) Tyrion wouldn't have been around for Tywin to hate, or to kill Tywin, had Tywin not loved Joanna too much to drown Tyrion at birth like he wanted.

6) Well, you may have a point there, but I'm not sure it would even have been an option, had he and his father not loved the Starks.

7) Stannis would never have killed Renly had Renly not declared for the throne, which he would never have done if not for his love of Loras Tyrell.

8) Ned would have lived inflexibly and indefinitely, had he not loved Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn, which drew him into the role of Hand. He'd have even survived that, had love for Sansa not motivated him to confess rather than insisting on trial by combat. Ned probably would have defeated the Hound.

1. Lady was a pet. She was doing what she was trained to do. That would be like saying the slaves on the crosses in Mereen let themselves be put up there because they loved their masters.

2. That wasn't love, it was lust. Besides, Robb didn't want to marry any of those ugly women in the first place.

3. Can't really argue with that.

4. That's seriously pushing the definition of love.

5. If Tyrion was a peasant, he would have been drowned, but since he was a highborn and most of those things are recorded, it would have been impossible for Tywin to kill Tyrion under less then suspicious circumstances. Tywin is all about image, no way in hell would he have ever let himself be labeled a kin-slayer.

7.Loras might have egged him on, but Renly wanted to be king because he was ambitious.

8. Ned didn't die because he was hand of the king, he died because he was hardheaded and refused to heed all the warnings that were sent his way. I'd even argue that if he loved his family that he would've gone back home when he had the chance. As for trial by combat, Ned was injured and I doubt he would've have beaten Hound if he was at  one hundred percent.

[Hecate7]

7. Loras disagrees.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m1-xPObOLk

 

1. Are you saying pets do not feel love? Lady and her siblings loved the Starks. Had Lady not loved them so, she would not have been so obedient.The wolves are not slaves. They are with the Starks out of love. They'd have run away or turned on the Starks, if that were not the case. Especially Lady. I don't think any of her siblings would have trusted Ned so much that they'd sit there and let him put a sword in them. They'd have run. Shaggy would have taken Ned's hand off, and so would Greywind. The others would at least have made an escape. Lady died because she simply didn't believe anything bad could come from her beloved family.

 

8. Ned would have lived a long life at home, being hard-headed the whole time. Love made him unable to say no to Robert or Sansa, and love of Jon Arryn made him unable to ignore the mystery at King's Landing. Love of honor made him persist, and love of Sansa made him decline trial by combat.

 

Arya will be the sole survivor of this story, because she's impervious to love.

[Holmbo]

Arya will be the sole survivor of this story, because she's impervious to love.

 

If Arya survives in the show or books I'll be very surprised.

[Avaleigh]

I'll be shocked if Arya dies. I honestly don't have any more Starks marked for death. They're the only major characters that I don't feel like I have to worry about at all.

I'm a spoiler addict but if there's one thing I rather wish I hadn't read it was the info about the title of the last book being A Time for Wolves at one point.o

[Holmbo]

I do feel like both Tyrion and Arya has gone through so much and are on such destructive paths that I just can't see them ending in anything else than death. But my conviction is also based on them being my favorite pov's in the books so I want to be prepared for them disappearing. To be honest I probably wouldn't mind them dying though if it is a well written death that's part of a good overall arc.

[Oscirus]

If any other Stark dies/doesn't make it back I'd say it would be Bran. That's the only reason I can think of for Rickon's existence.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say that at worse that  Tyrion make it to the end before he dies. However, I still agree with the online

theory that Tyrion winds up being the hand of the king and the lord of Casterly Rock. 

 

Arya will be the sole survivor of this story, because she's impervious to love.

 

I disagree with this. She loves her family hence her desire for revenge and her need to find them.

[Hecate7]

She loves the family she used to have. The actual family members she loved, are the dead ones. She's not really all that interested in finding Sansa, or she'd have found her. It wouldn't have been that hard. The desire for revenge is all she has left.

 

If she were reunited with what's left of the family now, she might still love Jon Snow, but the rest would be strangers, every bit as uninteresting to her as they were before she was separated from them.

[Holmbo]

I thought of a possible clue for Sansa's story line next season in the show. In the book Sansa is disguised as LF's bastard daughter and on the show they changed it to be his niece. I think they might have done that for future plot reasons.

We're assuming Sansa is going to learn to play the game from LF. In the book her being a bastard daughter would work well for her. No one will really think her important so she can be on the side line silently observing. By having her listen to LF manipulate people and run commentary in her head about it the readers will understand how she's learning and growing. Such a passivity would work in the book where we have her inner monologue but in the show I don't think it would be as effective. There I think it would make more impact if she's shown as learning by practice. She has silently observed people for years (2?) in KL and now it's time to put some lessons to use. So I think in the show she'll have a much bigger role in assisting LF in his plotting. She'll talk to the nobles and try to get information from them or influence them in ways. None of the nobles would talk to a bastard girl. She'd have to be of noble birth, even if it's the lowest of the nobles. As LF's nice she could very well currently be his heir which might make some of the families take an interest in her.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Holmbo

[Avaleigh]

They haven't explained the connection of how she's supposed to be his niece. If she's only supposed to be his niece via marriage it *might* not be as weird/objectionable when certain people start to take notice of the sexual element in their relationship. It'll still be creepy and uncomfortable but I think fewer people would take issue with Littlefinger having a relationship with some supposed "niece" no last name that nobody's ever heard of as opposed to him pulling shit like that on his own daughter. The Lords of the Vale already think Littlefinger is jumped up trash, I can only imagine what their impression would be if they'd thought he was the type of man to go into Craster territory.

I am curious now about what last name Alayne will have on the show. Surely people would know if Littlefinger had any siblings. I like that the show made the niece change but it does seem like it makes more sense for a bastard child to come out of nowhere because people so often want to ignore their existence because of all of the feelings of embarrassment and scandal that often attach themselves to those situations.

Re: Arya--I think Jon Snow is the only one she'd be flat out thrilled to see without any mixed emotions.

If she were to see Sansa again with Sansa playing the role of getting Harry the Heir to want to marry her I feel like Arya would likely have a tirade of angry thoughts about her "stupid" sister of whom she has always been resentful and jealous. I'm not saying that I think she'll necessarily want to kill Sansa but I can't see her feeling any new love for Sansa. I think she'd still have a touch of loyalty but only out of respect to their parents. I think now some part of her would even be disturbed by how much Sansa is now looking like Catelyn.

I don't think Arya and Bran will meet again in person but if they did I feel like I'd fear Arya being tempted to give Bran what she would see as a mercy killing. I don't think Arya has it in her to respect the idea that Bran could still lead a full life because if she were to have that happen to her IMO, of the Stark siblings, she'd be the least capableof dealing.

Maybe she wouldn't have any negative feelings towards Rickon but I can't see her feeling overwhelmed with love if ever they were to meet again. Curiosity, I can definitely see her having and maybe even a feeling of satisfaction if he's ever made Lord of the North but I can't really see her wanting to maintain any sort of close relationship. She just strikes me as a solitary figure at this point who is way too damaged to appreciate any future personal relationships.

[benteen]

I disagree about Arya's thoughts on Bran.  I don't know if Arya could wrap her mind around what Bran is now becoming but I don't think she'd kill him.

 

Arya coming face-to-face with Lady Stoneheart would be fascinating.  While she would like the "hang everyone" policy of LS, I think she would be horrified to see what her mother had become.

 

Poor Rickon...nobody remembers him.  Well, Bran and Robb  do.  But he really is the forgotten Stark.

 

Arya meeting Sansa again, definitely something I'd like to see.  But there's definitely a lot of issues those two need to work out with each other, particularly Arya with Sansa.  I think Sansa would be happier to see her though.

[Alapaki]

Poor Rickon...nobody remembers him.  Well, Bran and Robb  do.  But he really is the forgotten Stark.

 

 

I had completely forgotten, or glossed over on first reading, that Davos is sent by Lord Manderly to find Rickon on Skagos.  As popular as the TV Davos has become, that may bode well for TV Rickon (if not book Rickon).

[Holmbo]

They haven't explained the connection of how she's supposed to be his niece. If she's only supposed to be his niece via marriage it *might* not be as weird/objectionable when certain people start to take notice of the sexual element in their relationship. It'll still be creepy and uncomfortable but I think fewer people would take issue with Littlefinger having a relationship with some supposed "niece" no last name that nobody's ever heard of as opposed to him pulling shit like that on his own daughter. The Lords of the Vale already think Littlefinger is jumped up trash, I can only imagine what their impression would be if they'd thought he was the type of man to go into Craster territory.

I am curious now about what last name Alayne will have on the show. Surely people would know if Littlefinger had any siblings. I like that the show made the niece change but it does seem like it makes more sense for a bastard child to come out of nowhere because people so often want to ignore their existence because of all of the feelings of embarrassment and scandal that often attach themselves to those situations.

I think it would be wisest for LF to reveal nothing about his sexual interest towards Sansa to anyone anyway. Because it would make his wifes death more suspicious and he is seemingly planning to marry Sansa of to Harry the heir so he doesn't want people suspecting her not to be a virgin.

But I agree it makes more sense for her to be a bastard daughter than a niece. Those Vale people knew that LF's grandfather (I think) was from Bravos. You'd think they'd then know about his siblings and potential children of them. Perhaps in the show (and in the book, I don't recall) LF has relatives at the fingers and he's pretending that Sansa is one of them. But I doubt the show will go into such detail. I think Sansa will just be called Lady Alayne and her parents will be officially dead since long ago and not matter.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Holmbo

[Advance35]

Arya meeting Sansa again, definitely something I'd like to see.  But there's definitely a lot of issues those two need to work out with each other, particularly Arya with Sansa.  I think Sansa would be happier to see her though.

 

I have my doubts as to whether these two will ever meet again and I guess I'm the only person in the world hoping they don't.   I just find Sansa to be in such an  interesting place right now, I don't want to read about it coming to a screeching halt over Arya and her nonsense.    They've both changed a great deal but the way they regard each other ultimately wouldn't IMO.    Arya would still probably think Sansa's a foolish princess, who waste her time on things that don't matter.   Sansa's thoughts on Arya (which she probably WOULD keep to herself) is that Arya's a monster or just the same uncouth, classless little urchin she always was.

 

I'd be much more interested in seeing Sansa meet up with Tyrion, Danerys, Possibly Cersei, whatever Tyrells are left and maybe Jon Snow (if he's in a position of power, because I think Sansa regards people in power a certain way now and I'd be curious if she would be emotionally honest with Jon or treat him the way she does other Power-Holders).

 

With regards to S5.   ST seems to be under the impression that an amorous relationship between LF and Sansa will certainly be teased, so  I assume we will see Petyr and his dutiful neice out and about with the Vale Lords but behind closed doors we'll see a whole different dynamic between them to further illustrate how fluent Sansa is becoming in the game of deceit.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Advance35

[Oscirus]

Sansa and Arya will definitely meet up again. The show has been building up to their reunion since they've split up. I'm also fairly certain that Sansa and Tyrion will meet up again. Their story doesn't appear to be finished yet either.  Sansa's also likely to have a faceoff with Cersei which should be fairly interesting.

 

I wonder how long Sansa can lead Littlefinger on until something bad happens. I can't imagine that flirting with/teasing a pimp is going to end well for her.

 

I'm also looking forward to the Jon Snow/ Tyrion reunion mostly because I want to see how they'd react to each other now that they're  pretty much swapped places in the social order.

 

 

 

[Oscirus]

Sansa and Arya will definitely meet up again. The show has been building up to their reunion since they've split up. I'm also fairly certain that Sansa and Tyrion will meet up again. Their story doesn't appear to be finished yet either.  Sansa's also likely to have a faceoff with Cersei which should be fairly interesting. I also want to think that Snow and Arya would meet up again.

I wonder how long Sansa can lead Littlefinger on until something bad happens. I can't imagine that flirting with/teasing a pimp is going to end well for her.

I'm also looking forward to the Jon Snow/ Tyrion reunion mostly because I want to see how they'd react to each other now that they're  pretty much swapped places in the social order.

 

But most of this stuff is happening any time soon. ( I'd be shocked if any of this happens before season 6).

 

I don't think Arya and Bran will meet again in person but if they did I feel like I'd fear Arya being tempted to give Bran what she would see as a mercy killing. I don't think Arya has it in her to respect the idea that Bran could still lead a full life because if she were to have that happen to her IMO, of the Stark siblings, she'd be the least capableof dealing.

 

I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that Arya thinks like that.  As a matter of fact I'd say that she'd gladly be Bran's "Meara" on his journey if they ever met up.

[Lady S.]

I have my doubts as to whether these two will ever meet again and I guess I'm the only person in the world hoping they don't.   I just find Sansa to be in such an  interesting place right now, I don't want to read about it coming to a screeching halt over Arya and her nonsense.    They've both changed a great deal but the way they regard each other ultimately wouldn't IMO.    Arya would still probably think Sansa's a foolish princess, who waste her time on things that don't matter.   Sansa's thoughts on Arya (which she probably WOULD keep to herself) is that Arya's a monster or just the same uncouth, classless little urchin she always was.

Both of their opinions have changed a lot since their last heated argument. Sansa dreamed of having Tyrell sons to replace her dead brothers and even a girl who looked like Arya later dreams at the Eyrie of being little and sharing a room with Arya, and Arya is ready to beg Sansa's pardons like a proper lady early on in and later thinks Needle even represents Sansa. I also think it's important to remember that the book version of Septa Mordane is actually pretty bad in bringing up the girls together, always comparing Arya negatively to Sansa with her needlepoint or whatever and reprimanding Sansa by saying she's behaving like Arya, so it's not a case like say, Robert and Stannis, of two siblings just not liking each other. They've both changed a lot since Game, and both have been missing everything associated with Winterfell, including each other.

 

I don't think Arya and Bran will meet again in person but if they did I feel like I'd fear Arya being tempted to give Bran what she would see as a mercy killing. I don't think Arya has it in her to respect the idea that Bran could still lead a full life because if she were to have that happen to her IMO, of the Stark siblings, she'd be the least capableof dealing.

A full life as a tree? Bran doesn't even believe that would be a good life, and I don't want that for him either, but there's nothing to suggest she'd kill just for being crippled. And Arya doesn't believe in mercy killings, or least was confused about the Faceless Men telling her about it in the case of the Ugly Girl. I'd only see that as an option if she were reunited with her undead mother. 

 

I'm sure there will be Northern cast additions, but as of now, I bet Bowen Marsh is out and newly-dedicated-to-the-Watch Alliser Thorne is in.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Lady S.

[benteen]

After Ser Alliser rose to the occasion last season, I'd definitely like to see him in the Bowen Marsh role.  I hope he'll start off supporting Jon before everything turns south.