Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[benteen]

You know, this could work if D and D play their cards right.  That's a big if as their writing is mixed when they go into business for themselves.

 

My thoughts on how it will go down.  Just speculation...

 

Gwendoline Christie made reference to biting a man's ear off, right?  I guess this is where it happens.

 

Looks like we might finally get a meeting between Brienne and Arya.  My guess is Arya informs Brienne that her aunt is dead and there's literally nowhere else to go in Westeros.  But she does have an option in Braavos and convinces Brienne to let her go there.  I don't know if buy Brienne letting her go (she could conceivably offer to hide Arya on Tarth) but Arya could tell her to go look for Sansa and send her to Braavos (maybe with Brienne is tow).  That way they will at least be safe from the enemies of the Starks.  It could work if done correctly.

 

Basically it would be one of those same results type of writing D and D do.  Things still play out the way they do in the books but in a much different (and often convoluted way).  Still, the idea of Brienne and Arya meeting (not to mention the Hound) is something I think I'd like to see.

Edited June 9, 2014 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

While I can see a woman like Brienne having sympathy for Arya's wish to go to Braavos I wonder if she'd feel like she'd fulfilled her vow to Catelyn that way by letting her go? Didn't Brienne say that if she'd been in the position of one of the Stark girls that she'd have gone to the Wall?

Then again I guess she's probably going to give Arya that wolf bun that Hot Pie made and that to me suggests a mostly friendly encounter.

[Lady S.]

Gwendoline Christie made reference to biting a man's ear off, right?  I guess this is where it happens.

Yes, and Daniel Portman also talked about it. Gwen kept talking about a harrowing experience for Brienne, and Rory made it sound like he got into more than one good fight, so that has to be this. I am somewhat worried about how they'll handle meeting Arya, but Arya hasn't really done anything since getting Needle back so I no longer care too much how she gets on the boat to Braavos.

[larapu2000]

I like to think that Aegon is fake, because I want one of the Starks to warg a dragon.  Preferably Arya.

[Maximum Taco]

I like to think that Aegon is fake, because I want one of the Starks to warg a dragon.  Preferably Arya.

 

That assumes that you can warg a dragon.

 

Also the way it's described in the books by the wildling wargs you need to form a lasting bond, especially with "untamable" animals. Arya (or whoever) would need to spend a lot of time with a dragon to be able to warg it. Especially since dragons seem very particular

In the Dance of the Dragons novella it seems that a dragon will only ever accept one rider until that rider is dead. They don't seem like they'd be easy to warg.

 

That's why you don't see Bran just warging random creatures, it's always just Summer or Hodor until the three-eyed crow teaches him differently.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[ElizaD]

Brienne vs. Sandor could mean another year of waiting for Stoneheart. It's what I've most been looking forward to and now it might not happen. Dammit, I want dead Freys. I loved the Northern plot in TWOW and I'm getting worried that the show is only going to hit the major plot points with little buildup devoted to giving it a sense of importance/emotion since it involves Stannis (the unfavorite) and no Lannisters (the new core family, according to one of the writers).

 

I guess Cersei will confront Tywin about the incest. I hope it means one conversation that he won't be ending on top and unruffled. The show's been terribly unwilling to have Tywin be anything but the mastermind badass who's always right and not that bad after all (his cuddly grandpa scenes with Arya). It should be possible for someone other than #1 fave Tyrion to get a little win over Tywin; he had his screwups and blind spots in the books and his cruelty (which was destructive short-term thinking in many ways, not just when he aimed it at Tyrion) didn't get the "wow, such political skill, making tough choices like a boss" edit to this degree.

 

On the bright side, at least there will be a good opportunity to enjoy Varys in 4x10, his show future is uncertain (sails with Tyrion? worst case, disappears until season 6?).

 

Maybe Slynt will be executed for cowardice if they want to get that death out of the way. If he dies in early S5, the book plot will be used.

[Lady S.]

Brienne vs. Sandor just means we get the actual epilogue intro for Stoneheart. She's definitely coming this season, imo, there have been too many hints in various media.

[blixie]

Yeah, IDK, I never in a million years thought they'd end it w/o Stoneheart (it is too great a sucker punch stinger), but damn they have a lot to get through in 10!

 

Ho Shit to the idea Arya/Brienne meet, I would think Brienne doesn't so much let her go to Braavos as get distracted by her potential fight with Sandor, and that Arya sees her chance to slip away (now that she knows she really has no familial port in the storm, Braavos will seem even more attractive to her), I do love the idea that Arya will meet Brienne a woman she has not just a little in common with re: aversion to being a traditional sort of Lady.

[benteen]

These seem to be the points they'll be hitting next week...

 

-King's Landing and the Lannisters. 

-The Night's Watch aftermath

-The Hound and Arya's storyline colliding with Brienne and Pod.  I hope we get an Brienne and Arya meeting.  It'll make up a little for all the missed Stark reunions

-Bran's storyline.  Sadly no throwdown with the Wights it looks like.

-Dany's storyline.

 

Six storylines, two of which collide together.  MAYBE we'll get Lady Stoneheart at the end.  If not, I strongly believe Dany chaining up her dragons will be the final scene.

 

Storylines that will likely sit out for the finale...

 

-Sansa in the Vale (this would be for the best, no matter how unlikely it is that GRRM gets Winds of Winter out before Season 5).

-Theon and the North

 

I have to say, I'm really, really looking forward to the finale with the line-up ahead of us.

[Haleth]

Benteen, I just made a similar post in the Preview thread. We apparently think a lot alike.

{slaps forehead}. It never occurred to me that the preview with Arya saying someone was coming would mean Brienne and Pod. Should be interesting. As jam packed as the epi will be I don't see how they will fit in Stoneheart. Bums me out because I've been waiting 2 years for her appearance. I thought last season would have been a good place for her to pop up. I'll be very disappointed if Dany gets the last scene again.

[Haldebrandt]

At a minimum, we will have to see the following, in no particular order:

 

Bran reaches the cave

NEW: Parley with Mance and Stannis Arrives

Stannis & Jon (& Mel)

Jon gets elected (very quick affair, like a show of hands and slow clap.  Forget Sam's games)

Tyrion & Jaime

Tyrion & Shae

Tyrion & Tywin

A Dany scene (probably bones)

Hound falls, Arya leaves him and boards ship

Brienne & Pod

 

These are the bare minimum must-have scenes to close out the various story lines in ep 10.  So now you have to figure out what else you can fit into what little time remains.

 

Never thought I'd be adding to this list, but this is how I see it now.

[OakGoblinFly]

Here's a Reddit thread that lays out the full fAegon theory in much more detail. I find it pretty dang persuasive.

 

Though, to be fair, I also want it to be true, because setting up one character as the last Targaryen for four books and then decreeing, "Just kidding! There was another Targ out there that we just didn't tell you about, even though we jumped our story all the way across the sea specifically to tell you about the last Targaryen in the first place!" is hardly narratively satisfying.

 

 

But I never assumed Dany was the last Targaryen despite her claims --- I always thought there was a better than good chance that Jon is a Targaryen and that there was a cousin somewhere ...... I focused on Aegon once descriptions of his "death" starting showing up in chapters.  It remains to be seen whether or not Aegon is indeed the true son or a plant.

 

I am more interested in hearing more about Connighton as I think only he and Howland Reed are the only two people alive who know the truth about Lyanna.

[Maximum Taco]

But I never assumed Dany was the last Targaryen despite her claims --- I always thought there was a better than good chance that Jon is a Targaryen and that there was a cousin somewhere ...... I focused on Aegon once descriptions of his "death" starting showing up in chapters.  It remains to be seen whether or not Aegon is indeed the true son or a plant.

 

I am more interested in hearing more about Connighton as I think only he and Howland Reed are the only two people alive who know the truth about Lyanna.

 

Did I miss something in ADWD?

 

What makes you think Connington knows the truth? Howland Reed was at the ToJ with Ned and Aerys' Kingsguard so he makes sense, but why Connington? 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[blixie]

 

but why Connington?

 

I think that's an assumption based on how close Rheagar and Connington were, that if he confided to anyone about Lyanna it would be him.

[Maximum Taco]

I think that's an assumption based on how close Rheagar and Connington were, that if he confided to anyone about Lyanna it would be him.

 

Ah! See I figured he never did, because it's implied that Connington was in love with Rhaegar himself and he displays a lot of scorn towards Elia Martell because of it. I figured if he knew about Lyanna Stark he would've displayed an equal (or perhaps even greater) amount of scorn for her, because once again a woman supplanted him in his affections for Rhaegar, and this time the woman can be seen as the main reason for Rhaegar's death.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Maximum Taco]

LOL, I don't think Connington would do anything to spite Rhaegar's child by Lyanna. I think he just wants to support Aegon because he failed his father (who he loved). If he knew about Jon I hink he'd want to support him too, although it would be a bit harder to put a bastard on the throne.

 

I don't know how much Jojen and Meera know. I wouldn't be surprised, it seems like Howland told them a lot of stories, and Meera did say that the story of how the wolf maid became the Queen of Love and Beauty is a sad story that deserves it's own telling, implying she knows a lot. 

 

Thanks for mentioning The Knight of the Laughing Tree anyway, it made me reread that chapter and that really solidfied my thoughts about Ashara Dayne as well.

[benteen]

 

Never thought I'd be adding to this list, but this is how I see it now.

 

I forgot one other scene.  The whole Melisandre/Selyse/Shireen business, which I find to be an annoying distraction.

[Andeleisha]

I think that Aegon is a fake Targaryen, AND I think he is still going to end up on the Iron Throne. 

 

(wall of text incoming)

 
I agree that narratively, it's totally jarring to introduce the True Prince 5 books in. That's why I don't believe he is real. But I don't see why that eliminates him from taking the Iron Throne. In fact, I think that would be very emotionally satisfying: don't ever explicitly confirm or deny his lineage, but make him worthy of the throne. 
 
My pet theory (right now) is that Aegon is going to lead a pretty successful revolution in Westeros, without ever really becoming a major character for the readers, I think we will always see him from a distance, through the eyes of others. Dorne is going to side with Aegon, and when Dany hears, she is going to be PISSED. Meanwhile, I think that the White Walkers are going to invade from the North. Jon will return from the dead, but significantly altered as an invincible ice zombie, and devote his zombie life to eradicating the white walkers. I think Dany, storming over to Westeros in a rage over Aegon, is going to get involved in this battle. Aegon will show up to help, and because of the seriousness of the battle, the three of them will work together, riding the dragons, to win the war. I think that Dany is the Prince that was Promised...sort of. I think that Jon is going to stab Dany, and Longclaw will become Lightbringer...and then Jon will go out in flames. Aegon will be left alone to face the arduous task of rebuilding the realm, and maybe he'll ruefully reflect on how in the end, blood doesn't matter so much as who you are. 
 
That said, I'm sure GRRM will surprise me. :)

 

Regardless of WHAT happens, the end game has to somehow satisfy (and I think tie together) all of these Big Questions: 

 

• The Prophecy of Azor Ahai/the "Prince that was Promised" 

This is the person who is going to defeat the White Walkers. Where is Lightbringer? Doesn't that sword need to be tempered in the blood of Nissa Nissa? If the Prince isn't Dany, who is it? Who is their Nissa Nissa? What is the sword going to be? 

 

• The Dragon has Three Heads 

I don't know if Aegon is a Targ, but SOMEONE has to ride those dragons and face down the White Walkers. I have a hard time seeing Cersei or even Jaime joining the righteous cause. Tyrion might well be worthy of a dragon, but the asymmetry of the Two Targaryens (Dany and Jon) and...that awesome dude...throws me off (unless, I guess, Tyrion is secretly a Targ? Makes more sense to be the twins). How would someone like Brown Ben Plumm or Daario helping Dany to save Westeros be emotionally satisfying? 

 

• The Starks 

Why ARE we still following Sansa around if she isn't going to play into the ultimate battle or re-consolidation of the realm? Who is Arya going to have to kill as a Faceless Man? What will be the thing that breaks her and makes her remember who she is, and why she buried Needle? How is Bran going to contribute? (Rickon can just be found and become the new Lord of Winterfell, I don't think we need any more from him.) 

 

I don't know if there's anything outstanding that are as resonant as these things to the "end game." Dorne doesn't need anything more than to just Be There, the GreyJoys can die or help, the Freys can get a hot helping of sweet revenge, Stannis can swallow his pride and bend the knee (if he isn't already dead). We need good resolution for individual characters, but I don't know how any of that will play into the big scenes. Theon needs closure, Sam needs to be a hero, Cersei needs to die tragically, Jaime needs his redemption...even Tyrion, who needs so much to be recognized, and I think WILL be important, does't need to be the Ultimate Hero to realize his character arc. 

 

We already know that the ending of the series isn't going to be HAPPY. But I know the reason I'm still reading is because I expect it to be emotionally resonant, epic, poetic, and, like all good mysteries, you never see it coming, but once the ending is revealed, it's brilliantly simple. 

[ElizaD]

I am more interested in hearing more about Connighton as I think only he and Howland Reed are the only two people alive who know the truth about Lyanna.

 

I got the impression that Connington was more into Rhaegar than Rhaegar was into him, not just romantically but in general. He was the dreamy-eyed loyal follower but Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's confidant. I too think that if Connington had known about Lyanna, he would probably have found some way to consider her unworthy of Rhaegar the way he did Elia.

[Hanahope]

I don't understand how having Brienne find Arya works.  Isn't part of Arya's whole story line is that there is no one (outside the Hound and Hotpie - maybe) who know she's alive?  Certainly it seemed that was somewhat important, since GRRM purposefully kept that information about who Arya was from Sam when the two "meet" in Braavos, even if Sam, having such information (hey, Jon Snow's other sister is in Braavos for some reason) would not have any reason to do anything with that info.  So wouldn't it be a significant change to the story to have Brienne know Arya's alive?

 

I will be disappointed if we don't get a LS reveal at the end.  I suppose we'll have some inkling as to whether its coming if we get a Band of Brothers 'previously' or some other early scene where they remind us that Beric's been raised from the dead a few times.

 

They really could have used an extra episode this season, there's a ton that has to go in still.  Pretty much need to complete everyone's story lines except for Sansa's.

[Meredith Quill]

• The Prophecy of Azor Ahai/the "Prince that was Promised" 

This is the person who is going to defeat the White Walkers. Where is Lightbringer? Doesn't that sword need to be tempered in the blood of Nissa Nissa? If the Prince isn't Dany, who is it? Who is their Nissa Nissa? What is the sword going to be? 

 

Many think that Azor Ahai and The Prince that was Promised are 2 different people.

[Maximum Taco]

• The Prophecy of Azor Ahai/the "Prince that was Promised" 

This is the person who is going to defeat the White Walkers. Where is Lightbringer? Doesn't that sword need to be tempered in the blood of Nissa Nissa? If the Prince isn't Dany, who is it? Who is their Nissa Nissa? What is the sword going to be? 

 

 

Many people subscribe to the dragons (either one or all three) being Lightbringer and Khal Drogo playing the part of Nissa Nissa.

 

Dany tried three times to hatch the eggs finally succeeding with the sacrifice of her love (Khal Drogo) just like Azor Ahai tried three times to forge the sword before using Nissa Nissa's blood to temper it.

 

The dragons also satisfy Maester Aemon's complaint that Stannis' Lightbringer emits no heat, the dragons definitely emit heat.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Meredith Quill]

@Maximum Taco That feels like a cop out resolution to me, for much the same reasons you dislike the idea of JS being freed from his NW oath because he 'died'. It wouldn't be in keeping with the spirit of the tale and prophecy to stretch credibility that far imo.

[jjjmoss]

I will be very upset if Sansa and/or Stoneheart doesn't appear.

 

Without that, there's just Tyrion's confrontations with his bro and dad to really look forward to, personally.

[Maximum Taco]

@Maximum Taco That feels like a cop out resolution to me, for much the same reasons you dislike the idea of JS being freed from his NW oath because he 'died'. It wouldn't be in keeping with the spirit of the tale and prophecy to stretch credibility that far imo.

 

I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying. I don't like JS being freed from his NW oath because it's quibbling with the rules. It's saying "Oh technically, he died, so he's free from the oath." It's Jon (and GRRM) getting out of an obligation by using underhanded means. It's like me promising you 100 dollars and then giving you a Eastern Caribbean 100 dollar bill, technically I fulfilled my obligation, actually I abused the language we used ("You never said American dollar!")

 

How do dragons taking the place of a sword violate the spirit of the prophecy? It violates the letter of the prophecy most certainly, but the spirit (IMO) remains unchanged: It's still about a hero(ine) forging a weapon to fight against the darkness by the sacrifice of a loved one. Dany isn't cheating the system any by this and GRRM isn't abusing any definitive rules he made for his world. It's just an alternate interpretation. Did you feel cheated when Sansa didn't really defeat a giant at the gates of Winterfell?

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[OakGoblinFly]

I will be very upset if Sansa and/or Stoneheart doesn't appear.

 

Without that, there's just Tyrion's confrontations with his bro and dad to really look forward to, personally.

 

There's also:

• Tyrion murdering Shae
• Jamie and Varys help Tyrion escape from prison 
• Arya not killing the hound and boarding the boat to Braavos
• Jon's imprisonment by Janos (though I suspect that theis plot line may be dropped)
• Stannis' arrival at The Wall
• Stannis offering Winterfell to Jon
• Selection of the new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch

 

I do wonder if there will be mention of Val and her baby as well as the Frey hangings.

[Meredith Quill]

I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying. I don't like JS being freed from his NW oath because it's quibbling with the rules. It's saying "Oh technically, he died, so he's free from the oath." It's Jon (and GRRM) getting out of an obligation by using underhanded means. It's like me promising you 100 dollars and then giving you a Eastern Caribbean 100 dollar bill, technically I fulfilled my obligation, actually I abused the language we used ("You never said American dollar!")

 

How do dragons taking the place of a sword violate the spirit of the prophecy? It violates the letter of the prophecy most certainly, but the spirit (IMO) remains unchanged: It's still about a hero(ine) forging a weapon to fight against the darkness by the sacrifice of a loved one. Dany isn't cheating the system any by this and GRRM isn't abusing any definitive rules he made for his world. It's just an alternate interpretation. Did you feel cheated when Sansa didn't really defeat a giant at the gates of Winterfell?

 

I would say it's because;

 

• Firstly, the whole 'Lightbringer' part leads us to believe said weapon will be an actual weapon in the single sense of the word, Dragons - 3 - are plural. So to me that isn't in keeping with what we are led to believe. That imo constitutes quibbling.
• Dany didn't kill Khal Drogo in the fire to bring the dragons to life, she suffocated him prior, he was already dead. Mirri Maz Duur died in the fire that birthed the dragons, and she can hardly be compared to Nissa, Nissa in terms of Dany's affections.
• Also isn't Lightbringer meant to actually give off a glow - the dragons bring heat - which you could argue is a glow also - but they don't inherently 'glow' at all times themselves
• The prophecy itself states: "It has been foretold in the books at Asshai that when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn." It doesn't say 'weapon', it very clearly says 'sword'.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree though.

[Mormegil]

 

 

The Prophecy of Azor Ahai/the "Prince that was Promised"

This is the person who is going to defeat the White Walkers. Where is Lightbringer? Doesn't that sword need to be tempered in the blood of Nissa Nissa? If the Prince isn't Dany, who is it? Who is their Nissa Nissa? What is the sword going to be?

 

If Dany is Azor Ahai then Light Bringer is the Dragons.

 

If Jon is Azor Ahai then Light Bringer is the Nights Watch (I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn,).

 

 

Personally I tend to go with the idea that Three people are needed to stop the Threat of the WW and they are probably Jon. Dany and A. N . Other (possibly Bran) and all three of these together make up Azor Ahai/ The Prince that Was Promised/ The Three Heads of the Dragon.

[Maximum Taco]

I would say it's because;

 

• Firstly, the whole 'Lightbringer' part leads us to believe said weapon will be an actual weapon in the single sense of the word, Dragons - 3 - are plural. So to me that isn't in keeping with what we are led to believe. That imo constitutes quibbling.
• Dany didn't kill Khal Drogo in the fire to bring the dragons to life, she suffocated him prior, he was already dead. Mirri Maz Duur died in the fire that birthed the dragons, and she can hardly be compared to Nissa, Nissa in terms of Dany's affections.
• Also isn't Lightbringer meant to actually give off a glow - the dragons bring heat - which you could argue is a glow also - but they don't inherently 'glow' at all times themselves
• The prophecy itself states: It has been foretold in the books at Asshai that when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn. It doesn't say 'weapon', it very clearly says 'sword'.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree though.

 

All fair arguments. But most of your argument have to do with the language that's used. "weapon", "sword", "glows" You're arguing the letter of the prophecy over the spirit. 

 

Language has already been shown to be fairly mutable in these prophecies. I mean we didn't know that the Prince that was Promised could be a girl (princess) until Aemon told us that the original term is genderless. 

 

Something can easily be lost in translation here. Sword could be a metaphor, or it could be a language that doesn't differentiate between weapons well. I don't remember them saying that Lightbringer glows all the time or even at all, just that it is a red sword, a burning sword, a sword of living fire. To me that sounds like it could be referring to Drogon.

 

You could argue that Dany didn't kill Drogo with the express purpose of birthing dragons. But it still remains that they were born on his funeral pyre. So his sacrifice still led to their birth.

 

But really, who the hell knows? I've also heard the theory that the Night's Watch is Lightbringer as detailed in the post above (because they are the sword in the darkness, the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn.) It really could be anything. I'm also happy to agree to disagree.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[jjjmoss]

There's also:

• Tyrion murdering Shae
• Jamie and Varys help Tyrion escape from prison 
• Arya not killing the hound and boarding the boat to Braavos
• Jon's imprisonment by Janos (though I suspect that theis plot line may be dropped)
• Stannis' arrival at The Wall
• Stannis offering Winterfell to Jon
• Selection of the new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch

 

I do wonder if there will be mention of Val and her baby as well as the Frey hangings.

Yeah I don't care about any of these things.

[Haldebrandt]

They really could have used an extra episode this season, there's a ton that has to go in still.  Pretty much need to complete everyone's story lines except for Sansa's.

Nope.  They had plenty of time to do this story justice.  They were given two whole seasons to adapt book 3.  Time has never been the issue.

[Haleth]

Jon can be released from his vows if there is no more Wall once the smoke clears. Unless he is, you know, really dead.

[Haldebrandt]

Curious as to how people feel about season 4 at this point.  The season held a lot of promise.  Did it live up to it?   

 

I thought it started off great, and Two Swords and the Lion and the Rose are easily the best of the season IMO, and some of the best in the series.  But after that, there was a significant drop until Mockingbird, another highlight.  Since then, except for the duel itself (even that was too short), very little has worked for me.  The source material for eps 8-10 is fantastic and yet somehow, the adaptation has sapped the tension and momentum of it, leading to frankly low expectations for the finale.

 

Season 1 remains my favorite by a significant margin.

 

ETA: I disliked the idea of the entire episode at the wall because it wouldn't work for the episode itself.  But on further thought, I am realizing that that choice hurt the structure of the season as well.  Imagine how much more interesting the Wall might have been if the events of last night had been spread over two or three episodes. If there had been a siege before the full blown battle at Castle Black.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Fen]

 

At a minimum, we will have to see the following, in no particular order:

 

Bran reaches the cave

NEW: Parley with Mance and Stannis Arrives

Stannis & Jon (& Mel)

Jon gets elected (very quick affair, like a show of hands and slow clap.  Forget Sam's games)

Tyrion & Jaime

Tyrion & Shae

Tyrion & Tywin

A Dany scene (probably bones)

Hound falls, Arya leaves him and boards ship

Brienne & Pod

These are the bare minimum must-have scenes to close out the various story lines in ep 10.  So now you have to figure out what else you can fit into what little time remains.

 

There is simply a massive amount to get through in one episode in order to give everything some kind of temporary resolution.

 

I really do hope that any Dany scenes do not feature Missandei/Grey Worm meanderings again - there's simply no time.

[Avaleigh]

I guess Cersei will confront Tywin about the incest. I hope it means one conversation that he won't be ending on top and unruffled. The show's been terribly unwilling to have Tywin be anything but the mastermind badass who's always right and not that bad after all (his cuddly grandpa scenes with Arya). It should be possible for someone other than #1 fave Tyrion to get a little win over Tywin; he had his screwups and blind spots in the books and his cruelty (which was destructive short-term thinking in many ways, not just when he aimed it at Tyrion) didn't get the "wow, such political skill, making tough choices like a boss" edit to this degree.

Re: Tywin being this unstoppable bad ass---

I feel like the show has demonstrated that Tywin has made some mistakes and that he's far from being perfect in his his role of being the strategic patriarch. I'm not talking about mistakes in terms of morals or anything like that. I'm talking purely in terms of what's best for House Lannister as far as the Game.

To me, a glaring example of when I was questioning Tywin's decision making came when he was having that conversation where he was trying to intimidate Joffrey. Joffrey is being an asshole as usual in this scene, but even a broken clock is right twice a day and I thought it was interesting that in this conversation it's Joffrey of all people who thinks that maybe they need to take the issue of Dany having dragons seriously. Joffrey at least considers the possibility that the dragons could one day be a threat while Tywin is basically shrugging his shoulders while he tells Joffrey that the last dragon that was born had a head the size of an apple. When Tywin next has a scene where he's addressing the subject of Dany's dragons, there is little sense of this being top priority even though they know she has three dragons and a decent sized army. I'm not saying he should be full on panicking but the almost casual manner in which he deals with stuff like this doesn't exactly come across as badass to me.

I'm also thinking about the way he hasn't done anything about the Iron Bank sitaution apart from talking about it with Cersei and basically brushing it under the rug with Olenna. (Was Olenna not essentially saying that House Tyrell would assist with the debt to the IB? If so, handle it! If not, at least you'll know you have to go digging elsewhere. )

Another thing of course is show Tywin's decision to not deal with the cash flow situation now that they no longer have any working mines. Furthermore, why was he constantly lending someone like Robert money for years if he knew they were running low on funds?

Another thing is his refusal to school Cersei and teach her anything useful when it comes to ruling. Of his three children she's the only one who has expressed interest in wanting to live by his philosophy and be a kind of confidante but he rejects most attempt on her part to carve out a role for herself where she isn't simply used as a way of making a marital alliance. I get that he might have formed the opinion that his daughter is unintelligent but IMO that's even more of a reason to attempt to teach her something useful when it comes to ruling just in case something happens to him.

All in all I feel like Tywin has kind of ignored or ineffectively dealt with some major situations (forgot to mention turning a blind eye to the incest for some 20+years) so I don't feel like the show or books have presented him in a way as a badass who can do no wrong in , terms of playing the game and being the head of his house.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Avaleigh

[sunflower]

 

They were given two whole seasons to adapt book 3.  Time has never been the issue.

 

What is the issue? Fear of leaving certain POV characters off screen for 7 episodes in a row?   It pisses me off because they had a clear cut through line this season for the Wall story with the south attack towards the beginning, and the north attack with Stannis and LC Jon towards the end.  How did they fuck this up?  It's when the Wall and Stannis really become interesting leading into an excellent, in my opinion, Book 5 story for these characters. Stannis should have been in it more.  He burns some people, sits on a bench at the Iron Bank, and, oh, I'm at the Wall squeezed into the finale!  They really need to work on their balance.  Did we really need to see Tyrion talking in his jail cell that many times or waste time at Craster's Keep? Sam isn't even supposed to be at the Wall yet.  That's why Pyp died I think.  Can't kill Sam who isn't supposed to be there anyway.  I feel a touch bitter right now.

Edited June 10, 2014 by sunflower

[Dev F]

There is simply a massive amount to get through in one episode in order to give everything some kind of temporary resolution.

 

I assume that at least some of the items on this list will be saved for season 5. For instance, I don't imagine we'll see anything in the Wall storyline beyond Stannis arriving to defeat Mance's army. They can save the stuff about Jon becoming Lord Commander and Stannis and company settling in at Castle Black for next season.

 

It does still seem like the whole finale will have to consist of a series of brief climaxes for each storyline, with probably the bulk of the time devoted to events in King's Landing. But I feel like it should mostly fit.

 

My only big question marks have to do with how they'll close out the Arya/Hound and Brienne/Pod storylines, which seem farther from a definitive endpoint than the other plot threads. But, then, I didn't expect those storylines to intersect this year, which seems from the previews to be what's happening, so perhaps they've got a concise resolution in mind that I never really considered.

 

One thought I had is that maybe we don't get Arya on a boat to Braavos at the end of this season, so that the writers can tease the idea that Fake Arya is Real Arya at the beginning of next season.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Dev F

[sunflower]

 

disliked the idea of the entire episode at the wall because it wouldn't work for the episode itself.  But on further thought, I am realizing that that choice hurt the structure of the season as well.  Imagine how much more interesting the Wall might have been if the events of last night had been spread over two or three episodes. If there had been a siege before the full blown battle at Castle Black.

 

I think they should've taken a chance structure wise with the Wall story basically being the Night's Watch under siege almost the whole season with the south attack in episode 3-4ish and the north attack over the last few episodes ending in Stannis.  basically, a band of brothers if you will.  A story of war with the waiting and the tension and the gallows humor.  But to do that they would've had to develop their supporting characters better.  And they really gave something away early with Jon basically getting a pass for living among the wildlings.  There wasn't much tension there.  I don't know.  I just feel deflated.  

[Minneapple]

While the battle scenes were very well-done, I also never really felt any sense of tension or excitement. It almost felt like an exercise in "look at our awesome effects and choreography." The production was there, but the writing was not.

[Haldebrandt]

What is the issue? Fear of leaving certain POV characters off screen for 7 episodes in a row?   It pisses me off because they had a clear cut through line this season for the Wall story with the south attack towards the beginning, and the north attack with Stannis and LC Jon towards the end.  How did they fuck this up?  It's when the Wall and Stannis really become interesting leading into an excellent, in my opinion, Book 5 story for these characters. Stannis should have been in it more.  He burns some people, sits on a bench at the Iron Bank, and, oh, I'm at the Wall squeezed into the finale!  They really need to work on their balance.  Did we really need to see Tyrion talking in his jail cell that many times or waste time at Craster's Keep? Sam isn't even supposed to be at the Wall yet.  That's why Pyp died I think.  Can't kill Sam who isn't supposed to be there anyway.  I feel a touch bitter right now.

 

They fell in love with the idea of doing a Bigger and Better Blackwater for episode 9.  I think that's what happened.  Once that decision was made, every part of the Wall's story (and even beyond) became subordinate to that idea.

 

The craster thing was probably conceived for the dual purpose of giving Bran and Jon something to do.

[Lady S.]

I think the only problem with the battle of Castle Black is it being ep 9, it would have been great as say, ep 5. I think putting the attacks from north and south together works better dramatically, but the battle could have used better dramatic set-up, something the show has never known how to do.

One thought I had is that maybe we don't get Arya on a boat to Braavos at the end of this season, so that the writers can tease the idea that Fake Arya is Real Arya at the beginning of next season.

There is a Braavosi captain cast for ep 10, according to WiC. Edited June 10, 2014 by Lady S.

[Minneapple]

Extended promo:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc1mrCjHrfM#t=37

 

And there's Jaime and Tyrion going down the hall. Looks like Tyrion will kill Shae.

 

You know what's going to happen with Jaime and Cersei that will piss me off? She'll be all coming on to him, and he'll be like, "NO, I AM ON A REDEMPTION PATH. Well, other than that time that I raped you anyway. LEAVE ME." Blah. I love Book Jaime's redemption arc and Show Jaime has been all kinds of disappointing in comparison.

[Lady S.]

Well, he is kissing her back. I hope it's some variation of their other ASoS scenes where she tries to beg to help her with something. We know from one of the earlier s4 promos that her argument with Tywin should include a line about tearing Tommen apart and Cersei being willing to burn their House to the ground.

[Pete Martell]

They fell in love with the idea of doing a Bigger and Better Blackwater for episode 9.  I think that's what happened.  Once that decision was made, every part of the Wall's story (and even beyond) became subordinate to that idea.

 

The craster thing was probably conceived for the dual purpose of giving Bran and Jon something to do.

 

I think it was a reason to do what they often do with the Wall story and Jon story - stall, stall, stall. They could have still had more buildup to the big battle episode. Instead they cut the story to the bone, along with Sansa's story, so that we could get things like that placefiller with The Hound assaulting the farmer to remind us that he was an asshole, Tyrion and Jaime talking about beetles, and Oberyn repeatedly reminding people that his dick was hard. I didn't even mind the Tyrion and Jaime scene, but when I think about what they could have done, it's a waste.

 

What is the issue? Fear of leaving certain POV characters off screen for 7 episodes in a row?   It pisses me off because they had a clear cut through line this season for the Wall story with the south attack towards the beginning, and the north attack with Stannis and LC Jon towards the end.  How did they fuck this up?  It's when the Wall and Stannis really become interesting leading into an excellent, in my opinion, Book 5 story for these characters. Stannis should have been in it more.  He burns some people, sits on a bench at the Iron Bank, and, oh, I'm at the Wall squeezed into the finale!  They really need to work on their balance.  Did we really need to see Tyrion talking in his jail cell that many times or waste time at Craster's Keep? Sam isn't even supposed to be at the Wall yet.  That's why Pyp died I think.  Can't kill Sam who isn't supposed to be there anyway.  I feel a touch bitter right now.

 

I do think a lot of this is about the show being wary of giving "unpopular" characters too much focus. I get it, I do, but sometimes having too much of "fan favorites" damages the character. Arya's bizarre naivete and general silliness in "Breaker of Chains" did her no favors and is an example of a character being onscreen solely to be onscreen. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by Pete Martell

[ElizaD]

Curious as to how people feel about season 4 at this point.  The season held a lot of promise.  Did it live up to it?  

 

IMO season 1 was the most consistent (the tight source material helped), season 2 had the first big flop with Where Are My Dragons but the quality of the plots stayed mostly the same, season 3 was mixed and season 4 has been going for extremes. 4's highs were higher than 3's and there were far more of them (RW/PW, Dracarys/duel, but S4 also had Lysa's fall, Tyrion's trial, and the list goes on even before the finale), but the lows were also lower (S3 had Pod's magic dick, S4 had Jaime/Tyrion in 4x08 plus a whole lot of other scenes that I'm seriously tempted to skip on rewatch and the messed-up use of rape in 4x03 and 4x04).

 

Re: Tywin being this unstoppable bad ass---

I feel like the show has demonstrated that Tywin has made some mistakes and that he's far from being perfect in his his role of being the strategic patriarch. I'm not talking about mistakes in terms of morals or anything like that. I'm talking purely in terms of what's best for House Lannister as far as the Game.

 

I agree that he wasn't being smart in the examples you mention, but they're very low-key incidents. On non-TV boards, the Unsullied reaction to Tywin seems to be that his only real flaw is his inability to appreciate Tyrion, otherwise he's a good, intelligent leader who makes smart choices that lead to some bloodshed but are essentially OK in a medieval world. Even Oberyn choosing to champion Tyrion because of Tywin's responsibility for Elia's fate has been pretty much ignored; it shows that being needlessly cruel doesn't only give you wins, but the show focused so much on Tyrion/Jaime bonding and Oberyn's hatred of Gregor that Tywin was an afterthought. Oberyn points at him during the fight, but we missed out on the moment when Tywin is caught off-guard by Oberyn's announcement and on the acknowledgement that a lose-lose situation was created right under his nose: either Oberyn kills his dog and takes Tyrion away in triumph or he has to try to pacify the Dornish who have his granddaughter and just lost a beloved prince.

[Pete Martell]

The only time the show really suggested Tywin was not good at what he was doing was that Iron Bank convo with Cersei, which I think some fans felt was OOC, but when you think about Tywin's decisions, it sort of makes sense. He's good at micromanaging, not good at the big picture. His main failing has been obsession with appearances. He likely wished Tyrion dead but would not ever admit to that family weakness until the opportunity fell into his lap. And he pays the price as a result.

 

Preview talk (not sure if this needs a spoiler, but...)

Is Jaime going to seduce Cersei to help distract her while Tyrion gets away? If so, after the sept scene, that's going to come across horribly.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Pete Martell

[benteen]

IMO season 1 was the most consistent (the tight source material helped), season 2 had the first big flop with Where Are My Dragons but the quality of the plots stayed mostly the same, season 3 was mixed and season 4 has been going for extremes. 4's highs were higher than 3's and there were far more of them (RW/PW, Dracarys/duel, but S4 also had Lysa's fall, Tyrion's trial, and the list goes on even before the finale), but the lows were also lower (S3 had Pod's magic dick, S4 had Jaime/Tyrion in 4x08 plus a whole lot of other scenes that I'm seriously tempted to skip on rewatch and the messed-up use of rape in 4x03 and 4x04).

 

 

I agree that he wasn't being smart in the examples you mention, but they're very low-key incidents. On non-TV boards, the Unsullied reaction to Tywin seems to be that his only real flaw is his inability to appreciate Tyrion, otherwise he's a good, intelligent leader who makes smart choices that lead to some bloodshed but are essentially OK in a medieval world. Even Oberyn choosing to champion Tyrion because of Tywin's responsibility for Elia's fate has been pretty much ignored; it shows that being needlessly cruel doesn't only give you wins, but the show focused so much on Tyrion/Jaime bonding and Oberyn's hatred of Gregor that Tywin was an afterthought. Oberyn points at him during the fight, but we missed out on the moment when Tywin is caught off-guard by Oberyn's announcement and on the acknowledgement that a lose-lose situation was created right under his nose: either Oberyn kills his dog and takes Tyrion away in triumph or he has to try to pacify the Dornish who have his granddaughter and just lost a beloved prince.

 

That's one reason I wish they had had the conversation between Tywin and Tyrion where he discusses what happened with Elia and her children.  It's such a great insight into the way Tywin's mind works and also talks about his motivations in Robert's Rebellion.  Tywin's tendancy to scorch earth everything really comes back to bite him in the ass.  The way he treats his family too.

[Avaleigh]

Gah, I have the same worry as you right now, Pete Martell, regarding the upcoming Jaime/Cersei scene. At this point I'm basically always worried about what they're doing with Jaime because I feel like they don't get him at all. Actually, it's more of a feeling like sometimes they totally get him and other times not at all so the writing for him feels uneven, plus there's that letdown factor--I feel like they get him in an awesome scene like with Catelyn and then they do something like having him kill his cousin because he "loves killing". It's like wait, what? We can get the awesome tub scene but then we also get something like the rape scene. (Even though I'm trying to pretend the rape scene didn't happen, it's kind of hard when you have Benioff flat out say in the Inside the Episode that it was force. It's like if you see it that way then how were you not writing about it with that in mind and how does it suddenly not effect the writing for those characters later on? I'm still in agreement that it's better to pretend that it didn't happen but with the preview scene I couldn't help but feel worried like they might throw anything at us just for shock value.)

I know there's been a lot of discussion about D&D favoring House Lannister but for me it doesn't really come across as lopsided and I feel like I had the Wtf-are-you-guys-doing? reaction at multiple points in every season particularly when it comes to Jamie's character but also sometimes with Tyrion, and Tywin. With Cersei, when they include moments like the Pycelle/kennels comment, I feel like the showrunners basically get her at the end of the day so I don't have any big complaints about her characterization or portrayal.

IMO we never got to see what an incredible swordsman Jaime was and it's still a huge gripe for me that we didn't get one scene to show, really show, how fucking good he was. That little display with Jory was only the tip of the iceberg. One of a thousand reasons for why the first season called for 12 episodes to be done properly. If I could have had just one extra scene added to s1 it would probably be one of Jaime taking out multiple Northmen before finally being taken down only because the numbers were impossible.

With Tyrion I agree with the comments about how he has been white washed (it's especially noticeable in the way they portrayed his marriage to Sansa and his relationship with Cersei) and also agree that the proof that something has gone terribly wrong in his characterization is demonstrated by the fact that loads of Unsullied to see him as the so-called moral center of the show. To me though this doesn't come across as the showrunners being hopelessly biased in favor of House Lannister as much as it comes across as making changes and characterization choices that are taking away from significant complexities that I feel GRRM established in the book. (I also haven't noticed viewers seeming like they're more pro-Lannister than they arguably should be.)At the end of the day I don't know that a lot of the changes made did anything to enhance House Lannister or make it more interesting.

The hint of Tyrion's monstrous side just isn't apparent to me on the show whereas in the books I felt like I saw flashes of that side of him in the first three books prior to the murder of Shae. While I was still shocked it seemed plausible that Tyrion was in a dark, murderous, blind rage. With the Light Tyrion they've given us on the show, I fully expect plenty of cries of this Sunday from those who are finding it hard to swallow that kind, funny Tyrion who has even repeatedly been shown to have sympathy for Cersei, had it in him to kill the woman he loved.

[mac123x]

All fair arguments. But most of your argument have to do with the language that's used. "weapon", "sword", "glows" You're arguing the letter of the prophecy over the spirit.

Language has already been shown to be fairly mutable in these prophecies. I mean we didn't know that the Prince that was Promised could be a girl (princess) until Aemon told us that the original term is genderless.

I hadn’t heard that interpretation of the Azor Ahai prophecy before, but I like it.  GRRM seems to enjoy throwing in metaphorical solutions.  My favorite is Mirri Maaz Dhur’s curse being interpreted with metaphors:  “sun rises in the west and sets in the east” = Quentin Martell, etc.

Another thing of course is show Tywin's decision to not deal with the cash flow situation now that they no longer have any working mines. Furthermore, why was he constantly lending someone like Robert money for years if he knew they were running low on funds?

Tywin’s attitude strikes me as one of the landed aristocracy in Britain during the early 20th century.  Title, lands, nobility, heritage, snobbery, and desperation to avoid apprearing poor.  He was probably lending money to the crown a) in order to keep up appearances of being wealthy and b) hoping for a return on investment.

It does still seem like the whole finale will have to consist of a series of brief climaxes for each storyline

I’m expecting a dialog-free montage as the second-to-last scene.  Arya sailing into Braavos harbor, Tyrion looking broody on a ship, Cercei crying in Jaime’s arms as the look at Tywin’s fresh corpse,  Littlefinger Sansalayne and Robin at a feast somewhere in the Vale, Jon and Stannis meeting, Bran talking to a Child of the Forest, Dany locking up the dragons. 

Final scene:  Brienne and Pod discussing what to do now, deciding to resume their trip to the Wall, getting captured by bandits, including a cloaked woman…. Final shot is Brienne saying “who are you?” with her lowering her hood to reveal Lady Stoneheart.  Credits.

[benteen]

When the show has stayed true to the books, Jaime's character has shined.  Particulary in Season 3.  When they've gone into business for themselves, you get scenes like Jaime killing his cousin and raping his sister.  I recall in the "Inside the Episode" segment for the episode for the cousin-killing episode, Weiss said that they wanted that scene to remind audiences that Jaime is "a monster who loves killing."  I'm pretty sure that's what she said and that shows they have no understanding on who the character is.  That description is worthy of The Mountain and Ramsay, not Jaime.  Jaime is certainly capable of monstrous acts....his crippling of Bran being a primary example.  But that was due to this twisted love of Cersei.  Not defending his actions at all of course.  But Jaime isn't a "monster who loves killing."

 

Excellent point brought up as well as how the show has never portrayed Jaime as the badass swordman he was.  Granted, a lot of his fighting happened off-screen.  We only hear about how he cut down 10 men in an attempt to get to Robb.  But his duel with Brienne was supposed to give us an indication of how good he is, or in that case was.  Because even locked up and chained for a year, he nearly beat Brienne in the book.  But they decided to prop up Brienne to superhuman levels by having her easily disarm him on the show in a much less dramatic confrontation.  Yet another action scene better in the books than in the movie.

Edited June 10, 2014 by benteen