S11.E09: O Brother Where Art Thou?

[catrox14]

 

However, I'm not totally convinced that was actually Lucifer; maybe it wasn't a mistake? Either way, I think the line was just an attempt to explain why Lucifer looked like Mark Pelligrino.

 

I can go with it being a mistake or handwavy writing to explain away Mark Pellegrino. This is the LOLCANON Carver era so I don't know why I try to even bother to find reasonable explanations for all the crap writing. Maybe I just like to think the writers are learning and that Carver has a grand plan that will make it all make sense. The cast deserves better writing so I hope for morsels...Sigh.  Stupid me. 

 

Too bad they didn't go with the explanation that Sam's mind would not/could not process seeing himself as Lucifer's most recent meat suit so it defaulted to the Nick memory. It would have amped up our fears for Sam and reminded old and new viewers why Sam would be so totally terrified to even consider the option. I would have 100% bought that reasoning and it still would have worked as red herring for some other kind of shenanigans. 

[Mick Lady]

Hmm.  Interesting.

 

To your first point, I don't think any outcome is predetermined.  A child will certainly be tempted by something set before him, but the child still makes the choice to eat or not.  It's subconscious, but the reward outweighs the punishment in the child's mind if he eats.  

 

Now, here's where things get all metaphysical.  ;-)  God gave man free will, IMO, simply because he gave them the ability to make a choice.  All the temptation in the world will mean nothing if God didn't imbibe in humanity the ability to choose.  It may not have occurred to Adam and Eve that they could eat from the tree, but the innate knowledge must have been in their subconscious.  Otherwise, when Lucifer suggested it, they would have had no idea what he was even talking about.  He would have been speaking a foreign language to them.

 

I'm trying to think of a concrete example of that nebulous idea, but I am coming up blank.  Probably because I can't describe something I have no knowledge of.  Okay, this is an incredibly flawed metaphor, but I'll give it a go.

 

Kummerspeck is a German word of which we have no equivalent in English.  Literally, it means "grief bacon".  Wha-?  You understand the two words, but I'd be surprised if a non-German speaker would understand what "grief bacon" is trying to convey.  It sounds like emotional overeating, or the food you eat when you're feeling particularly emotional.  But, no, it refers to the weight we gain due to emotional overeating.  We understand the idea of emotional overeating, but not the idea that the weight we gain from it should have a word of its own.

 

So, kind of like that, Adam and Eve must have had a subconscious understanding of choice without knowing the literal meaning of it.

 

Sorry, I'm not making any sense at all.  This is why I should never be a writer.  I have difficulty finding words that convey what's going on in my head.  

 

Just read this, and I loved this Demented! It adds so much to the interpretation of the story. Thanks!

[mertensia]

My guess is Mark Pellegrino is being used as Lucifer to differentiate between him and Jared so you know this isn't in Sam's mind.

[catrox14]

My guess is Mark Pellegrino is being used as Lucifer to differentiate between him and Jared so you know this isn't in Sam's mind.

 

 

For me it does just the opposite. It makes me question why Sam wouldn't have been all "Ummm, Rowena.....this is Nickifer....Last time I saw him it was hallucinations and before that IRL was in Detroit when his skin was falling off his face. So why am I talking to him now and not some other vessel or ....Lucifer!Me!" But then Sam didn't seem to even think about Lucifer sending the visions...so you know WTF show.

[mertensia]

It's a script shorthand because of time constraints.

[catrox14]

It's a script shorthand because of time constraints.

 

IMO, "script shorthand" is not an adequate reason in an episode that revisited Sam's greatest fear and the single most important thing that has ever happened to him.

 

There were plenty of chances in the episode put in a smidgen of dialogue to clarify how Nick is Lucifer's meatsuit and why Sam saw it. Edit down any of the long pans of Dean looking confused,or Amara smiting people, or the fire building around the cage with the DUN DUN DUN music or the long hallway shot of Crowley, Sam and Rowena, etc.

 

 It deserved better attention to detail. Especially in an episode that had SO MUCH TALKING already.

[SueB]

Well, it wasn't Nicole Baar who was the editor. It was the other guy.  Can't remember his name.  What I CAN say is that if I notice the editing is choppy, then it's a problem.  I think there were problems with the editing on this one.  Part of it is, IMO, Singer.  He comes from a different POV as many of us have witnessed when we saw him at ChiCon.  To him, the "so much smoke" was probably more than he felt was even necessary to explain that Lucifer was not a corporeal body in the transitory cage -- he was any form he wanted to take. Like Zachariah in Heaven.  And Nick's the obvious choice. If that was the form he had in Sam's hell-ucinations, then that's probably the physical form he used to torture Sam for the time he was in Hell. 

 

And while it's not always like this... it does pretty much look like glow-y smoke coming out of Hannah here. So, I can see Lucifer saying "so much smoke".

 

So, honestly, I think the issue wouldn't even register with Singer.  I think Phil S. or Guy Norman Bee would probably be more careful, but how would YOU describe it?  "Essence"?  

Edited December 21, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I get that Singer might say it's smoking out but that doesn't sound like something Lucifer would say which is why I come back to the writing. Unless there were lines that were written and left out.

To me angel grace is like it's own thing. Almost like it's own kind of element, for lack of a better word. It's like a gas but filled with light.  IMO, demon smoke is the pieces of humanity that have been burned off over time manifesting as the embers or smoke of the human soul. Demons leave sulphur behind so I figure that's because of the smoke itself.

 

The "smoke" comment is a small part of my issues with Lucifer here. BuckLemming episodes suck and they aren't subtle where they should be and they are anvilcious when they shouldn't be.  And it's one thing to rely on good actors to tell parts of the story but when are really screwing around with something so iconic and important to the canon of the show, more exposition here would have helped.

[mertensia]

Part of it is that they *do* have to make some sacrifices for the audience. It's probably partly why Meg didn't change actors much. I don't have a problem with their using Pellegrino for Lucifer.

[rue721]

Lucifer is all about *being heard.* That's always been his big thing. He wants attention and understanding.

 

He wouldn't want to look like someone who Sam associates with anyone other than Lucifer, because he doesn't want Sam thinking of anyone other than Lucifer while he's talking to him. He wants Sam's full attention on him. He wants pretty much everybody's full attention on him, lol.

 

I think that's the in-story why he usually appears to Sam as Nick rather than as Jessica or John or Sam himself or whoever.

 

And the meta reason is probably because it's easier and less confusing not to have Jared playing two different characters in a series of emotionally exhausting scenes between those characters.

 

Tbh, each of those reasons are fine with me.

 

It's much stranger to me that Rowena was able to get Sam to the Cage in the first place, but I'm still sorta thinking/hoping that the Book of the Damned is just a prop she uses to distract people while she stages illusions. Maybe she tricked and captured Sam using a Lucifer illusion just like she tricked and captured Cain using that illusion of the little boy (last season). I doubt it, since the Book of the Damned really did (somehow) release the Darkness, so it's got to have some serious power, but a girl can dream.

[SueB]

Lucifer is all about *being heard.* That's always been his big thing. He wants attention and understanding.

 

He wouldn't want to look like someone who Sam associates with anyone other than Lucifer, because he doesn't want Sam thinking of anyone other than Lucifer while he's talking to him. He wants Sam's full attention on him. He wants pretty much everybody's full attention on him, lol.

 

I think that's the in-story why he usually appears to Sam as Nick rather than as Jessica or John or Sam himself or whoever.

 

And the meta reason is probably because it's easier and less confusing not to have Jared playing two different characters in a series of emotionally exhausting scenes between those characters.

 

Tbh, each of those reasons are fine with me.

 

It's much stranger to me that Rowena was able to get Sam to the Cage in the first place, but I'm still sorta thinking/hoping that the Book of the Damned is just a prop she uses to distract people while she stages illusions. Maybe she tricked and captured Sam using a Lucifer illusion just like she tricked and captured Cain using that illusion of the little boy (last season). I doubt it, since the Book of the Damned really did (somehow) release the Darkness, so it's got to have some serious power, but a girl can dream.

I like the use of the word 'illusion' in your comment. Rowena has real power but she's very theatrical as well. It's a great way of hiding what she is/is not capable of. I think Crowley has the right measure of her -- if she had followers she wouldn't have been so easily captured. Which makes me wonder--- by letting 'nobody's third cousin' witch go, did Sam and Dean contribute to Rowena's problem with getting followers? She was likely to spread the word that both Crowley and the Winchesters were after Rowena. Out of the five witches we saw her meet, four are dead. Three because she got pissed and one from Crowley's assassination attempt. All this adds up to people steering clear of Rowena. If Crowley backs off, perhaps she'll get followers, but by now the damage may be hard to recover. Back on point, it'll be interesting to find out what she really can pull off because the warding failure was important I think.

[Linderhill]

I thought it was at first but I don't think so after looking more closely.

 

 

This is Rubiy's knife

 

Knife Dean used to stab Amara

thank you catrox!  I didn't think it was but I'd read some posts on other boards where posters thought it was Ruby's blade.  Not that they'd miss since they seem to have an ample supply of angel blades.

[catrox14]

No problem! It was driving me crazy so I decided I would do a little research.  What I wonder about is why Dean didn't take the demon knife or an angle blade and just a pig sticker....things that make you go hmmm.

 

 

I was watching "Free to Be You and Me" and the final scene with Sam and Lucifer really jumped out at me.

 

 

SAM turns, sees LUCIFER where he expected JESS, and stands up and backs away.

LUCIFER That's right. You know who I am.

SAM: Lucifer.

LUCIFER: You are a hard one to find, Sam. Harder than most humans. I don't suppose you'd tell me where you are?

SAM:What do you want with me?

LUCIFER:Thanks to you, I walk the earth. I want to give you a gift. I want to give you everything.

SAM:I don't want anything from you.

LUCIFER:I'm so sorry, Sam, I, I really am, but Nick here is just an improvisation. Plan B. He can barely contain me without spontaneously combusting.

SAM: What are you talking about?

LUCIFER stands and moves closer to SAM.

LUCIFER:Why do you think you were in that chapel? You're the one, Sam. You're my vessel. My true vessel.

SAM:No.

LUCIFER:Yes.

SAM:No. That'll never happen.

LUCIFER:I'm sorry, but it will. I will find you. And when I do, you will let me in. I'm sure of it.

SAM:You need my consent.
LUCIFER crosses his arms over his chest.

LUCIFER: Of course. I'm an angel.

SAM: I will kill myself before letting you in.

LUCIFER: I'll just bring you back.
LUCIFER sighs.

LUCIFER: Sam. My heart breaks for you. The weight on your shoulders, what you've done, what you still have to do. It is more than anyone could bear. If there was some other way...but there isn't. I will never lie to you. I will never trick you. But you will say yes to me.

 

SAM:You're wrong.

LUCIFER: I'm not. I think I know you better than you know yourself.

SAM: Why me?

LUCIFER: Because it had to be you, Sam. It always had to be you.

SAM looks up. LUCIFER is gone.

 

Based on the bolded part, it got me to thinking

 

Lucifer's 'Code of Honor"

 

Is removing sigils a trick?

Is zapping Sam around without his consent a trick?

If either of those are considered a trick, then is that actual!Lucifer or actual!Lucifer's hologram at all?

[DittyDotDot]

No problem! It was driving me crazy so I decided I would do a little research.  What I wonder about is why Dean didn't take the demon knife or an angle blade and just a pig sticker....things that make you go hmmm.

 

 

I was watching "Free to Be You and Me" and the final scene with Sam and Lucifer really jumped out at me.

 

Based on the bolded part, it got me to thinking

 

Lucifer's 'Code of Honor"

 

Is removing sigils a trick?

Is zapping Sam around without his consent a trick?

If either of those are considered a trick, then is that actual!Lucifer or actual!Lucifer's hologram at all?

 

To the first part, I don't think Dean was expecting to actually run into Amara--he was just investigating and asking questions--so was only armed with his basic silver knife right then. But seriously, the knife-that-doesn't-kill-anything-anymore is basically a pig sticker at this point.

 

To the second, I think Lucifer was just saying he wouldn't trick Sam into saying yes, not that he wouldn't use his powers to his advantage. That's the thing about Lucifer in S5, his ego was so big he didn't think he needed subterfuge to get his way. And, to be fair, he didn't trick Sam into saying yes, he just didn't tell Sam he knew Sam was intending on tricking him. It seems Lucifer has changed his tune since getting locked back up; being locked in a cage for five years can probably do that. ;)

[KirkB]

That was back then, when Lucifer was gearing up for the inevitable apocalypse. He needed Sam as his vessel because Sam was meant to be his vessel. And besides, even if (no, especially if) every word to come out of his mouth was a lie he would still insist he was telling the truth.

[catrox14]

That was back then, when Lucifer was gearing up for the inevitable apocalypse. He needed Sam as his vessel because Sam was meant to be his vessel. And besides, even if (no, especially if) every word to come out of his mouth was a lie he would still insist he was telling the truth.

 

I don't think 5 years in the pit is going to alter his basic mission of  "The Apocalypse". I would even argue that it might make him even more determined to make it happen since his plan was thwarted.

[ShellsandCheese]

I find adult Amara annoying and the actress and her odd cleavage are distracting. The younger actresses that played Amara were better. I hated this episode because nothing new really happened, nothing. I'm at the point where I think it's time to give up on the show. I'm over and have been over this never ending God, Angels, Lucifer,Crowley wheel that we've been on since season 4/5. The Monster of the Week episodes throughout the early part of the season were great, but now it appears its full steam ahead with The Darkness. Argh.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I somehow missed this one last year when I was trying to watch the eps semi-live.  So this was a first time through for me.  And I have been strangely tired in the evenings when I get home and end up nodding off during the episodes, even though it's not very late.  So I watched it the night before and and  again last night - but skipped the boring angel stuff last night because it was BORING angel stuff.  

• Side note: can they not write/cast any angels with more personality or charisma other than Cas?  That's pathetic.  These guys were as bad (maybe even worse) than Crowley's demons. ::sigh::  Actually, I think Crowley has better demons.
• Oh Sam, why did you do it?  You promised Dean nothing with out him and then you went ahead a ny way.  Why, Why, WHY?  Because ROWEENA said to hurry?  Sheesh.  Lucifer ain't going anywhere.  You had plenty of time.  Okay, you get points for calling at least, but you should have waited.  
• Oh Dean, why did you do it?  Why didn't answer Sam's phone call?  Even before you saw Amara?  Next time, answer the damn phone!
• Not sure how what Amara said to Dean about God being jealous that she would create a better creation than Him jives with 

Spoiler

what Chuck/Guck says later in the season about how Amara destroyed everything he created.  I mean, who's really telling the truth?  Or are they  both telling their own truths and the real answer lies somewhere in between?

• I did like how Sam didn't take crap from Roweena.
• The glowing red eyes of Satan in the cage was legitimately creepy and scary.  But after that, not so much.  
• And Sam - poor Sam - that Single Man Tear at the end and the look in his eyes made me legitimately scared for him.  He sold the terror he had to be feeling.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 12/10/2015 at 2:44 AM, Iguana said:

but Sam is entirely egotistical enough to accept without much hesitation that God would single him out like that. 

It doesn't come across as egotism to me.  I think it's more just...hope.  Maybe crazy, naive, head-in-sand kind of hope, but just hope that God didn't entirely abandon them yet again.

On 12/10/2015 at 10:53 AM, Hana Chan said:

Yes, I'm calling Amara the Dimness because she's just not interesting enough to qualify as the ultimate dark force of the universe. Her motivations seems so trite and banal. Every other big bad we've seen on this show had grand motivations and large endgame goals, even if those goals were about just eating everything in sight. I think the show failed to make her in any way compelling for all her apparent power (which is fairly unimpressive compared to Lucifer and Azazel). And I just can't find anything compelling about her bond with Dean, because she's given no reason beyond him having worn the MOC when she was released. And no clear indication of just what she wants with him. Or why she might need him. Or why Dean's will takes a vacation when she's around. 

 

The most interesting thing in this episode was Sam and Luci and I'm not totally convinced that Luci is totally behind Sam's visions. Because if that's the case, it's the cherry on a shit sundae of abuse the show's laid on Sam's lifelong faith. It's been a testament to Sam's faith that he still wants to believe even after all he's been through. And having the courage to face Lucifer again after everything he'd been put through (and thanks for the rapey hints again) can't be understated.

On the first part, I don't think Amara's motivations (as presented by this point in the season) are trite and banal.  I mean, her brother locked her away for eons.  I'd be pretty ticked about that too.  And she wants to know why and/or confront him about it.  Again, I can totally understand that.  I also think her power has already been shown to surpass Lucifer and Azazel.

The bond with Dean is weird and underdeveloped/explained.

On the second part - Can't agree with you more.

On 12/10/2015 at 6:29 PM, FlickChick said:

If you think about the Christian concept of Heaven, people's souls go there after their bodies die, and "live" there forever with God. (or in SN's world, in little rooms) The soul does not die. So what The Darkness is saying is that what she does (in consuming souls) is the same thing with basically the same result - except that now the souls are in "the darkness" instead of Heaven. So I agree that she sees this as an "upgrade" to God's creation. Not sure I'd agree with her. ;)

I don't know.  If, in The Darkness, the souls aren't confined to their own individual heavens and get to mingle, it might be an upgrade.  :)

On 12/11/2015 at 3:52 PM, rue721 said:

I think it's possible that it WAS God giving Sam those visions, and sent Sam to the Cage. Before this episode, I was sure it was Lucifer, but when Lucifer claimed responsibility for it in this ep, it just smelled like bullshit to me. I think it's possible that when Sam showed up at the Cage and started spouting off about how he needed to help/connect with Lucifer as part of God's plan, Lucifer saw an opportunity and seized it.

Amara said that when she consumes souls that they're "with" her forever and that they exist in bliss. That's more or less what God promises, too -- that if he's happy with people, that they'll be "with" him forever and exist in heaven once they die. 

How I wish the first part had been true.  That would have been an interesting story line.  

Except, in the SPN verse, God is NOT in heaven, so the souls who are there aren't 'with' God forever.  

On 12/12/2015 at 8:47 AM, DittyDotDot said:

As far as I know, it's never been specifically addressed. Lucifer is an arc angel not a human, so maybe the Mark works differently on him? However, I wonder if Lucifer actually bore the Mark himself. What I mean is, it was stated that God gave the Mark to Lucifer to guard, but didn't say he actually bore it. Maybe Lucifer's way of protecting it was cursing Cain with it? 

Along that line, I'm still perplexed at how Amara can be wearing the Mark herself if the Mark is also what kept her locked up? Plus, Death said God created the Mark as a lock and key, so how is it that Amara could be the "original" Mark carrier? Yeah, I know... .

I thought Amara said she was the (original) Mark.  Not that she bore the Mark.  Subtle difference, but a different nonetheless.  It's late in the day and I need caffeine before I can properly theorize on what that might mean as far as Lock and Key go.  There's something there tickling at the edge of my brain, but I can't quite grasp it right now.

On 12/13/2015 at 11:10 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Despite the episode kinda saying that Dean should have stayed on as a babysitter, it is not something that I think the character should need to do. Sam is capable of making his own decisions, that he listened to Rowena`s rather obvious ploy of "it HAS to be now....because of reasons" is not Dean`s fault. Actually dividing force of labour is in theory a good thing in my mind. One staying and one going to investigate Amara directly.  

Well, maybe Dean shouldn't have to stay as babysitter (and he didn't, did he?) but he did make Sam promise not to make any further move (beyond research) without him.  So imo, it was irresponsible of Dean not to answer Sam's phone call.  

On 12/18/2015 at 2:15 AM, catrox14 said:

Okay, what does he mean here? Angels aren't smoke. They are white and blue grace, not smoke. Lucifer is an archangel on top of that and pretty egotistical. Why would Lucifer refer to himself as being smoke,(aside from lazy writing)? 

I had a bit of a discussion on another thread about angels vs. demons...and here's where I sort of stand on it.  Yes, Lucifer is an arch-angel.  However, he is also Satan.  So, imo, his grace wouldn't be the glowy bright white and blue 'smoke' of Hanna.  It would be dark and twisted - like a human soul gets dark and twisted to become a demon, his grace is now dark and twisted.  

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

had a bit of a discussion on another thread about angels vs. demons...and here's where I sort of stand on it.  Yes, Lucifer is an arch-angel.  However, he is also Satan.  So, imo, his grace wouldn't be the glowy bright white and blue 'smoke' of Hanna.  It would be dark and twisted - like a human soul gets dark and twisted to become a demon, his grace is now dark and twisted.  

I get the reasoning but that doesn't explain why Lucifer has always been shown shrouded in blinding white light like when he rose in Lucifer Rising, or in s5 when he possessed Nick and Sam. I think that light is intended to be his grace.

[FlickChick]

Lucifer is the "Light Bringer", so yes, he would have bright light emanating from him and around him.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Eh, I get what you both are saying too - but the name "Light Bringer" was given before he Fell (or was kicked out?) of Heaven.  So...that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :D

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Eh, I get what you both are saying too - but the name "Light Bringer" was given before he Fell (or was kicked out?) of Heaven.  So...that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :D

How do you explain the bright light when he got out of Hell?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

How do you explain the bright light when he got out of Hell?

I don't remember exactly which time (?) to which you're referring, but here's my super simple semi-scientific rationalization...whatever he did required a lot of energy.  A big expenditure of energy tends to emit a lot of of light.  But that doesn't mean that his grace - his core being - isn't dark and twisted.  :)

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't remember exactly which time (?) to which you're referring, but here's my super simple semi-scientific rationalization...whatever he did required a lot of energy.  A big expenditure of energy tends to emit a lot of of light.  But that doesn't mean that his grace - his core being - isn't dark and twisted.  :)

Angels go into vessels via their grace since that was shown with Hannah (RIP). I'm talking about every time he possessed a vessel he glowed bright white light.  He may have needed all that energy when when he escaped the cage in Lucifer Rising but he wouldn't need that energy to possess a human vessel who has consented.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

He may have needed all that energy when when he escaped the cage in Lucifer Rising but he wouldn't need that energy to possess a human vessel who has consented.

Wouldn't he?  Do we know exactly how angel possession works?  If it's a transference of energy, it could still emit a bright light.  (You're not dissuading me from my theory!  Lol!)  

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know if Lucifer's grace is twisted and dark--it very well could be even thought it has never been addressed in-show--but, I agree he has always been shown to be surrounded by a white/blue light previously just like every other angel. And, I believe, angel possessions have always been big bright white lights and appear very similar to the bright light when Anna got her grace back. They didn't start the glowy-eye thing until Gadreel, if I remember correctly, and it was most likely done to be shorthand for the audience to know when Gadreel came out to play. So, just because Lucifer wasn't shown to have glowy red eyes before, doesn't mean he couldn't now that the show has decided to show angels with glowy eyes.

I do find it weird they chose to give Lucifer glowy red eyes, myself. But, I also found it weird they decided to make Crowley's smoke red in S8, too. That's more more due to me thinking less is more with these things, though, rather than finding it to be a retcon. I'm of the opinion we shouldn't notice the effects on this show since it's supposed to be grounded in some sort of real-world way and when they do some of these things to set a character apart from the rest, it just feels like the show is showing off. ::shrugs::

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wouldn't he?  Do we know exactly how angel possession works?  If it's a transference of energy, it could still emit a bright light.  (You're not dissuading me from my theory!  Lol!)  

I'm not trying to dissuade you. I'm suggesting your policework is a bit off. In s10 Hannah' left her vessel and her grace, went back to Heaven. When Sam and Cas went to talk to Hannah, her grace went into the new vessel, 'Mannah'. When Gadreel possessed Sam there was bright light and when Sam kicked Gadreel of him, his grace left his body and wend it's way back to his original vessel, Helo (Tahmoh Peniket) In all those cases white light shrouded the angel and the possessed person.  Seems to that's the grace that is being transferred to the vessel. I'm not sure why that process would change with an archangel.:)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not trying to dissuade you. I'm suggesting your policework is a bit off. In s10 Hannah' left her vessel and her grace, went back to Heaven. When Sam and Cas went to talk to Hannah, her grace went into the new vessel, 'Mannah'. When Gadreel possessed Sam there was bright light and when Sam kicked Gadreel of him, his grace left his body and wend it's way back to his original vessel, Helo (Tahmoh Peniket) In all those cases white light shrouded the angel and the possessed person.  Seems to that's the grace that is being transferred to the vessel. I'm not sure why that process would change with an archangel.:)

Oh, I'm sure my theory is a bit off.  But then, so am I, so I'm okay with it.  ;)  

Any ordinary archangel, I'd agree with you.  But like I've said, Lucifer isn't just an archangel.  He's also SATAN.  And I just think that's got to make a difference.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, I'm sure my theory is a bit off.  But then, so am I, so I'm okay with it.  ;)  

Any ordinary archangel, I'd agree with you.  But like I've said, Lucifer isn't just an archangel.  He's also SATAN.  And I just think that's got to make a difference.

He's not any more powerful than Michael or Gabriel. He was dangerous because he hated humanity. He was in Hell with human souls because he rebelled. He used his cunning, anger, jealousy, resentment and was willingness to hurt human souls in Hell with torture, manipulation, etc, to turn the human Lilith and make her the first demon. She in turn did the same thing to other humans. His power was turning human souls against each other to create a new race.

IMO, the blackness of demon souls is because they were once human and they lost their humanity and became a new species essentially. The Mark influenced Lucifer from a distance but I don't think it was strong enough to alter his physical grace as an archangel. But the Mark is powerful enough to alter Cain and Dean because they were humans. That's my head!canon anyway.

I understand where you are coming from I just don't concur with you conclusion :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He's not any more powerful than Michael or Gabriel.

Nah, I didn't mean that I thought he was any more powerful than Michael or Gabriel.  Just more evil.

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He was in Hell with human souls because he rebelled.

And if being in Hell turns human souls into demons, logically (to me anyway) it would have an adverse effect on Lucifer also.  Not turn him into a demon per se, because he doesn't have a human soul.  But as like I said, I think something inside him - and since he doesn't have a soul, but has Grace, then Grace it is - turned dark and twisted.

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understand where you are coming from I just don't concur with you conclusion :)

Lol!  Ditto!

[bettername2come]

Disturbing opening with Amara frying all the people. Almost as disturbing as Satan touching Sam's face in the cage. "You were in the forest. There are bushes there and sometimes they burn!" I love how logical Dean is about this, but I think Sam is being completely reasonable about this. "I need an actual meeting. In a room." Amara had her moments, lover her railing against God in the church (which was beautiful). Nice use of Crowley and Rowena in this one. "In my day, we'd all be burned at the stake for even thinking any of this." Love the expression Jensen's face when he asked Amara about the people she killed. Interesting that Dean says "His universe. His rules." It's just strange to me when he sides with God since he has so many issues with him. I kind of love that Lucifer tries to tell Sam he can't go against God. It's amusing hypocrisy. The fact that Lucifer reached out through the cage makes a lot of sense, given that even in one of Sam's previous visions, he could see Lucifer's hand sticking out through the cage. "He's not with you. He's never been with you."And the single man tear. Heartbreaking. Well done, show. I also think they did a great job in how they split up Sam and Dean for this one. One thing I really like about this season, they split them up, but not without it making sense and not because the brothers aren't presenting a united front. It's nice. Mature. 

[Hanahope]

So a trick with Lucifer’s cage.  I guess this wasn’t the actual cage since Michael wasn’t there either. I liked the effect with the red eyes.

and of course Amarra is putting the moves on Dean.  Just not sure why.  What does she need with Dean?  Trying to make her own ‘son?’

add-I laughed when Sam and Lucifer talked about what Lucifer would do after defeating Amarra and Lucifer said he’d move to Los Angeles and solve crimes.  Yes I watch Lucifer

Edited October 12, 2017 by Hanahope

[The Companion]

On 12/10/2015 at 4:02 AM, millennium said:

 

All I could think during the Lucifer scene was, "Not this shit again."

 

But I like Rowena.   I would watch a show called "Rowena."

Same and same. I love Rowena and think she is genuinely different than most of the prior villains of the show. I am bored by the prospect of facing another Sam tries to save the world and ends up in the cage with Lucifer plotline. Sigh.

On 12/10/2015 at 9:39 AM, Omegamom said:

I really do think Amara was trying to suck out his soul; she assumed the position and all. I think that not being able to really intrigued her.

 

I sorta assumed it was just a fakeout but now I am amusing myself that it was her trying to cover so she didn't look awkward. Hee.

On 12/10/2015 at 9:53 AM, Hana Chan said:

 

Yes, I'm calling Amara the Dimness because she's just not interesting enough to qualify as the ultimate dark force of the universe. Her motivations seems so trite and banal. Every other big bad we've seen on this show had grand motivations and large endgame goals, even if those goals were about just eating everything in sight. I think the show failed to make her in any way compelling for all her apparent power (which is fairly unimpressive compared to Lucifer and Azazel). And I just can't find anything compelling about her bond with Dean, because she's given no reason beyond him having worn the MOC when she was released. And no clear indication of just what she wants with him. Or why she might need him. Or why Dean's will takes a vacation when she's around. 

 

The most interesting thing in this episode was Sam and Luci and I'm not totally convinced that Luci is totally behind Sam's visions. Because if that's the case, it's the cherry on a shit sundae of abuse the show's laid on Sam's lifelong faith. It's been a testament to Sam's faith that he still wants to believe even after all he's been through. And having the courage to face Lucifer again after everything he'd been put through (and thanks for the rapey hints again) can't be understated. Maybe not the smartest thing, given that even if they secured Lucifer's help with the Dimness, what happens then? He wouldn't happily go back to his cage after all is done. And ending with Sam back in Lucifer's clutches... oy...

 

I'm a lot less interested in the Dimness at this point than I am about what is going to happen between the old roommates. And Sam... if you really have a choice, pick the top bunk.

Oh, I love "the Dimness." She is just written to be so whiny and she hasn't really shown enough power to be truly scary. I mean, Castiel-as-God was way scarier and created a lot more urgency. I don't wanna discount her murder spree, but she was basically killing people one at a time and not in particularly terrifying ways. And then just to get attention. Yawn.

This is a good point about Sam's faith. O was seeing desperation (what else do we have?) but I agree that is a compelling point.

On 12/10/2015 at 7:14 PM, bethy said:

Finally got a chance to watch and oh, my word. SO. MUCH. TALKING. Sam talks, Lucifer talks, Dean talks, the Darkness talks. Everybody talks and talks and talks.

So so so much talking. Talk talk talk. The monologuing made this episode hard to watch. Lord knows JA and JP acted their hearts out, but it couldn't save an episode where we had to basically cut between rambling monologues.

On 12/10/2015 at 7:31 PM, TexasGal said:

Rowena's fan girl giggle at Lucifer's name was everything! I think if someone told me I was about to be 20 feet from Jensen Ackles I'd react exactly the same way.

 

I did love this detail. 

On 12/13/2015 at 8:23 AM, DittyDotDot said:

 

 

Now, if they had just toned down the DUN-DUN-DUN music in Hell and cleaned up the dialogue, I might have actually been really engaged with this episode. As it was, though, I kinda spent a lot of the time laughing at it...and no, I don't mean to say I was laughing with it.

The music was distractingly bad to me.

On 12/13/2015 at 8:29 AM, Hana Chan said:

Dean has no more agency than he had with the MoC. In other words, his leash is as long as Amara allows. He leaves Sam alone with Crowley and Rowena knowing that they are looking for a way for Sam to meet with Lucifer to investigate one of Amara's small mass slaughters (which is decidedly less horrific than Lucifer's killing of an entire town full of people down to the last infant). He doesn't answer the phone call from Sam when he had been waiting for word on them being ready to move. But then he suddenly has the ability to strike at Amara? I find it pretty impossible to believe that he had enough free will to do that and I thought that it was pretty clear from Amara's dialogue that she allowed him to do so just to prove that he was incapable of fighting her.

 

Believe me, I would be happy to see some evidence that Dean really is capable of fighting Amara because he's been the bearer of the MoC, but we're just not seeing that now. And we still haven't had it made clear just why she's got any investment in him or how he's going to further her goals.

 

For me, this is the weak part of the whole storyline. The big bad, for her stated power and status as God's "sister" is decidedly less compelling than pretty much every other big bad the show's had so far. Dean's role right now seems to be a sounding board for Amara to whine about God ignoring her (get in line, sister). Until we get some clear rational why Dean is so under Amara's control, why he is of any value to her beyond his status as one who carried the MoC, it's going to remain the less interesting part of the storyline.

Totally agree. She feels less like a vengeful deity and more like a petulant child. I honestly don't get it. 

And part of the problem for me is also the forced urgency. Why try to kill her with no plan a few episodes ago and now turn to the far more menacing Lucifer with a mere sketch of a plan? 

This all feels like re-treading old ground. There were some good moments (JP's single man tear being standout), but the majority of this episode left me bored and irritated. And where the fuck is Castiel, y'all? 🙄

[Katy M]

On 2/3/2020 at 4:57 PM, The Companion said:

nd where the fuck is Castiel, y'all?

Mucking up something, somewhere, like he always is, I'm sure.