S20: Heroes vs Villains

[simplyme]

14 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I guess he is "my Hero" insofar as he was on the Heroes tribe and just about the only one worth a damn who was there very long (Alas, Cirie) so he was the Hero I was rooting for/enjoyed watching.  (And if he made people like Candice and Colby miserable then I am all the more for him.  My big revelation when I rewatched HvV was that they really, really overedited Colby, he has confessional after confessional of hair-pullingly tedious monotone.) But it's Parvati who is my actual hero, to the point that actually I don't like to argue about her HvV game because I get too emotional.  Like I obviously am a big fan of Survivor, but in the end it will never be perfect because Parvati didn't win this season.

This is why Survivor is so awesome. People can have completely different reactions to the same player. To me, JT is the giant albatross hung around the neck of the Heroes' tribe, slowly dragging them to their doom, and Candice and Tom were the brief, flickering hopes for logic and reason. Tom is taken out by JT, and Candice is so disgusted with her own tribe (and also knows that if she doesn't flip, she's #5, maybe #6 behind Sandra) that she would rather take out a Hero and take her chances with the villains.

I also think discounting Sandra's moves because they didn't work and saying if they had, she would have been voted out is not accurate. This is Sandra. Her attempts and her idol play showed she was playing and gave her jury votes. If she had succeeded in removing Russell from the game, I'm not sure she gets removed. She's weak in challenges, she's often good at pushing the right buttons, and she knows how to make other people a target. There's a reason Coach went home instead of Courtney. So I think her game is undervalued. Russell played a good strategic game but completely mauled the social aspect (again.) Parvati had her double idol play, which was brilliant, but she also remained in the game because Russell gave her his idol and nudged Tyson. So to me, I can see strengths and weaknesses in every person's game and not be distraught in how it turned out.

[LadyChatts]

I've been thinking about some of the comments here, especially since I'm re-watching this season right now.  I didn't understand why Colby came back when it first aired, and I get it even less on re-watch.  The Heroes egos (mainly the men) seem more overinflated on re-watch as well.  I think JT truly wanted to be the one in charge and calling the shots.  The core alliance couldn't even hide their arrogance at sticking together, despite being questioned by Jeff that maybe it wasn't wise to keep injured parties like Rupert and James around.  Keep people are that are weak and keep losing, but keep your solid numbers.  Or vote off the weak and risk not having numbers going forward, but maybe start winning.  To James's credit, I do think he did somewhat well given his injury, but had they not merged when they did, it was probably only a matter of time before it caught up with him.  Still, seeing the Heroes and their egos taken down twenty notches after the merge was glorious, especially since the 3 men had been patting themselves on the back and crowing about making Survivor history and taking down the (non existant) evil Parvati led female alliance. 

As for Colby, I wonder if James got into his head a little much during that first challenge.  He ribbed him about getting his ass kicked by Coach, and went on about how excited he was to have Colby on his tribe, but he didn't live up to the memory from Outback.  I'm going to take this time as well to again point out what an overbearing jerk James was.  I don't know what happened to him between Micronesia and here, but sheesh.

[enlightenedbum]

James was always a jerk.  Especially towards women, but also just in general.

[Nalan]

16 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I guess he is "my Hero" insofar as he was on the Heroes tribe and just about the only one worth a damn who was there very long (Alas, Cirie) so he was the Hero I was rooting for/enjoyed watching.

*Shrugs*  If you say so.  I think basically playing and double-dealing in such a way that NO ONE trusts you, dragging down your entire tribe's morale, and basically being the reason that your entire tribe lost the game isn't anything to root for.  At all.

Oh, but by all means, keep thinking it is!

[KimberStormer]

Thank you for your permission, you have no idea how precious it is to me.

[simplyme]

5 hours ago, Nalan said:

*Shrugs*  If you say so.  I think basically playing and double-dealing in such a way that NO ONE trusts you, dragging down your entire tribe's morale, and basically being the reason that your entire tribe lost the game isn't anything to root for.  At all.

Oh, but by all means, keep thinking it is!

I mean, I can't stand JT and couldn't even during Tocantins (his supposedly brilliant win), but some of his decisions are defendable from his perspective of protecting himself and his position in the game. Even I, the great JT-hater, can see that. Things like targeting Tom and keeping James may not have been in the tribe's best interest, but it was in JT's best interest. Tom was a physical force who wasn't loyal to JT, didn't take orders from JT, and thought too much for JT. If JT gets rid of James, that leaves his alliance of three tied with three non-alliance members for control of the Heroes.

That said, overall, yeah, I think his actions (plus Rupert being Ruperty, and James being his usual alpha male self, and Amanda being useless) pretty much damned the Heroes. But players are allowed to play the game for themselves, and people can like who they like. It makes for a more interesting discussion that way for sure.

:)

Edited June 7, 2017 by simplyme

[Daisy]

On 6/6/2017 at 3:59 PM, simplyme said:

This is why Survivor is so awesome. People can have completely different reactions to the same player. To me, JT is the giant albatross hung around the neck of the Heroes' tribe, slowly dragging them to their doom, and Candice and Tom were the brief, flickering hopes for logic and reason. Tom is taken out by JT, and Candice is so disgusted with her own tribe (and also knows that if she doesn't flip, she's #5, maybe #6 behind Sandra) that she would rather take out a Hero and take her chances with the villains.

I also think discounting Sandra's moves because they didn't work and saying if they had, she would have been voted out is not accurate. This is Sandra. Her attempts and her idol play showed she was playing and gave her jury votes. If she had succeeded in removing Russell from the game, I'm not sure she gets removed. She's weak in challenges, she's often good at pushing the right buttons, and she knows how to make other people a target. There's a reason Coach went home instead of Courtney. So I think her game is undervalued. Russell played a good strategic game but completely mauled the social aspect (again.) Parvati had her double idol play, which was brilliant, but she also remained in the game because Russell gave her his idol and nudged Tyson. So to me, I can see strengths and weaknesses in every person's game and not be distraught in how it turned out.

I am really biased. (though I also agree). Sandra wanted to get Russel out because (A - she hated him and B - what happened with Rob). she tried to get the Heroes to work with her and every hero shot down that plan. (And the reason why she got the Hero votes I don't think it's 100 percent because Parv had Russell stink on her, it's because I think Sandra made them realise why they got booted out and had they worked with her it  could have been different. I always thought that's a great point to play in front of any jury). 

I also feel that Sandra would have made it work for her had it BEEN team Hero at the end. She would have changed her plan. for them. to win. 

[KimberStormer]

Was looking for that Parvati gif in the Micronesia thread and wow there are so many great HvV Parvati gifs.

  

[LanceM]

Love those gifs. Before Sandra used in game changers there was this...

 

[healthnut]

On 5/29/2017 at 0:52 PM, LanceM said:

anyone see this? Lost footage of HvV alternate Natalie Bolton the day before filming began. I would have loved to see her on this season.

 

I'm guessing they already had too many from Micronesia, but I would've rather seen Natalie than Danielle, whom no one remembered. I still would like to see Natalie play again. 

[TVbitch]

Just binged this knowing Sandra won but not remembering much else about the season. It's at the top of most of the "best seasons" lists, so I thought it would be a good one. I have to say, I'm with the others here disappointed with the winner. I kept waiting for Sandra to DO something. She did absolutely nothing for the first half of the game except let whomever was running the villain tribe drag her along. She literally just lounged on the beach and sucked at every single challenge. She watched Rob and Tyson get voted out without putting up any kind of fight, then tried a bit to save Courtney, but failed. After the merge she tried to work something with the Heroes, but lamely, by only going to Rupert, and it was also a fail.  She did find the last immunity idol and played it, but it wasn't even needed, cuz  she was getting drug to the finals by the Villains who figured she would be the goat. ...and I think she should have been! 

Even that clip they LOVE to show over and over of her saying "I'm against you, Russell" like it was some bold brazen boss move was her being totally stupid at that point in the game and put her in jeopardy. She immediately took it back, and bowed right back down to him. The whole game her big goal was to get Russell out and she failed at that too. 

Personally, I can't stand Parvati's whole "flirty girl dipping her toe in the sand" personality, but damn, she was robbed. 

[LadyChatts]

Just watched the finale.  There was sure a lot of "I'm not destined to win this game" this season.  For some reason I thought the final 4 ended in a fire tie breaker, but maybe I was confused since there were people on this season that had been part of those.  I'm kind of sentimental, since many of my favorite players were on this season, and it's highly unlikely they will return again.  Sort of an end of an era, since this also felt more like an old school season.  It was nice, too, that this was only the 2nd fully casted returning player season, and the 3rd overall that featured returning players (or 4th, if you count Guatemala).  It was nice back then that these seasons didn't become oversaturated like they are now.

That last IC was nuts.  It was heartbreaking to see Jerri so freaking close (I've been a Jerri fan back to villain days in Outback).  If Jerri won, Parvati would go home.  Would Jerri have gotten any votes in a Sandra/Russell/Jerri final 3?  I'm thinking Sandra might have gotten a clean sweep, unless someone purposely voted for Jerri just so Russell couldn't share in 2nd place.  Parvati at least had accomplishments she could cite, whereas Jerri really was just a Russell pawn.  They need Sandra back just for soundbites and footage (same with Courtney).  I don't know in what universe Russell thought he was going to get all but Courtney's votes on the jury.  I guess he missed that serial killer look Rupert had on his face.  I've always thought Rupert was a sore loser to begin with that somehow feels entitled to win this game just because he's Rupert.  The Heroes had not one to blame but themselves for their downfall.  Even with JT's massive idol blunder, they could have stayed together had they just listened to Sandra and stuck together.  I'm glad they didn't, as I didn't really like them as a tribe from episode one, and a Rupert/Colby/Candice/Amanda finale would have been nauseating.  

I loved how Parvati took shots at Russell during the final 4 IC, saying first she saved him, then saying they saved each other despite Russell's protests.  Then at the final TC, saying Russell was her pet dragon.  I would have given the win to Parvati, as I think she did play a better game overall and had more of an uphill battle.  Sandra did get lucky just by not being associated with Russell.  I'm happy she won, because I like her, but I would have liked to have seen Parvati win.  Overall, I appreciate Russell's strategic play, but he does not know how to play a social game, and he doesn't necessarily now how to handle some of his own moves.  

With the new jury format, I think I'm going to miss bitter betty speeches.

Edited August 6, 2017 by LadyChatts

[simplyme]

2 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

Would Jerri have gotten any votes in a Sandra/Russell/Jerri final 3?  I'm thinking Sandra might have gotten a clean sweep, unless someone purposely voted for Jerri just so Russell couldn't share in 2nd place.

I think Jerri would have had Coach's vote.

I would guess the rest would go to Sandra in that scenario, but we'll never know.

[SVNBob]

2 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

 If Jerri won, Parvati would go home.

To quote the queen herself, "I don't know about that."  Of that F4, there was only one person unaware of how Sandra could and would win.  It seems more likely to me that Sandra gets voted out 2-1-1.  Or she and Parv would have faced off in a tie-breaker, and I don't know which one of them would have been able to make the better fire.

 

22 minutes ago, simplyme said:

Would Jerri have gotten any votes in a Sandra/Russell/Jerri final 3?

Probably the one from Benji, yes.  But that might be the only one.  Parvati said that she would have voted for Sandra were she on the jury.  So the only question is who would Danielle vote for, Jerri or Sandra?  In either case, Sandra still wins; either 7-2-0 or 8-1-0.

The bigger question is who would have won between Jerri and Parvati if Sandra had been eliminated instead.  I'm pretty sure Jerri wins 5-4-0 at the very least; possibly 7-2-0.

[LadyChatts]

I think I'm more curious in a Parvati/Jerri/Russell final 3 who JT would vote for.  I'm guessing Jerri since she had her hands the cleanest in his idol blunder.  So yeah, between him and Coach, she'd probably be locked in for 2 votes, and maybe could pull it off.  She probably would have gotten Amanda's votes, and Candice's based off her little speech about Parvati being trapped in an abusive relationship with Russell.  So those two, along with Coach and possibly JT, would have given her 4.  It seemed being tied to Russell was partly Parvati's downfall but the argument could be made that Jerri was also tied to Russell, and didn't make many moves of her own (if any).  Of course the Heroes egos were hurt over getting played, and if Sandra was on the jury, who knows if she would have steered them in a certain direction.  If Jerri won that last immunity, she wanted Parvati gone.  Russell wanted to keep Sandra.  But who knows.  Russell said so many things during that finale that made no sense.  No matter what the set up, he still wasn't winning.  Rupert, Sandra, and Courtney might have been the votes that decided the game, as they probably would have voted as a block.  So Jerri could get Coach, JT, Amanda, and Candice, and Parvati would definitely have Danielle.  So it would come down to Colby, Sandra, Rupert, and Courtney.

In a Jerri/Sandra/Russell final 3, I'd also be curious if JT would still vote for Sandra.  Sandra seemed destined to get the Heroes vote just because she tried to warn them, align with them, and wanted Russell gone.  JT's a tough one to figure out, though.

Edited August 6, 2017 by LadyChatts

[Star Aristille]

7 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

It seemed being tied to Russell was partly Parvati's downfall but the argument could be made that Jerri was also tied to Russell, and didn't make many moves of her own (if any).

Exactly one -- the Candice boot was her baby.

7 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

In a Jerri/Sandra/Russell final 3, I'd also be curious if JT would still vote for Sandra.  Sandra seemed destined to get the Heroes vote just because she tried to warn them, align with them, and wanted Russell gone.  JT's a tough one to figure out, though.

J.T. is almost as nonsensical as Russell most of the time.  So much so, I stopped trying to figure him out years ago.

[SVNBob]

9 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I think I'm more curious in a Parvati/Jerri/Russell final 3 who JT would vote for.  I'm guessing Jerri since she had her hands the cleanest in his idol blunder.

That was my thought too.  In this F3 combination, Jerri would have been "the least of 3 evils", so she'd probably pick up the majority of the Hero votes; JT, Rupert, Colby, and Candice.  Add Benji's lock and that's the required 5 to win.  Danielle would have voted Parvati, and I think Amanda might have thrown her vote to her old Brigade partner to ensure there wouldn't be a tie at the end.

So I had Sandra and Courtney as the swing block.  Realistically, they'd probably vote for Jerri and attempt to steer the jury that direction (if Sandra can't be a two-time winner, why should Parv?).  But they could have given Parvati the nod with respect to her strategic game that the Heroes would be ignoring with their votes.

That's how I came up with 5-4-0 and 7-2-0 above.

[KimberStormer]

Courtney and Sandra would vote Parvati no question.  Courtney said specifically in Ponderosa that she was hoping either Parvati or Sandra got to the end so she'd have someone to vote for instead of against.  She picked Sandra when both of them got there but she would have voted for Parvati over anyone else in the game.  And if you watch HvV there are a thousand little cute moments between Parv and Sandra, they had a great relationship.  She pointedly does not include Parvati in the list of the people she hates, but she does include Jerri.  I know all the hip kids are saying that Parvati has no social game but it is not in fact true.  It's a social game that works best on women, actually, despite her man-eater reputation.  Also, Sandra doesn't care about 2-time winners until she became one herself.

I think Jerri-Parv-Russell goes: JT, Rupert, Coach, Colby, Candice, Amanda for Jerri; Sandra, Danielle, Courtney for Parvati, and of course nobody for Russell.  I actually would have preferred that outcome because I think Jerri played a hell of a game in HvV, a much smarter one than Sandra's -- not voting for Danielle, what are you even thinking Sandra? and I think I would really love to see the Jerri Winner Edit of HvV.  BUT I don't think it would have happened because Jerri had her own dumbish mistake and was sure Parvati was a bigger threat than Sandra, didn't even try to vote out Sandra at F4.  In a Sandra VS Jerri showdown, I agree with it being 8-1 with Coach being Jerri's only vote.  Jerri's only chance is being the Not Russell Party like Sandra was.  Because the Heroes fucking suck as jury members even worse than they suck as players.

Edited August 7, 2017 by KimberStormer

[LadyChatts]

I don't know if Rupert would have voted Jerri.  He seemed disgusted with Parvati's association with Russell, but he did seem to respect her game at the same time.  Jerri would equally be guilty of working with Russell, but I guess it would depend if they respected better game play or someone who wasn't as guilty by association.  If Sandra was in the jury and wanted Parvati, I think she might have persuaded Rupert.  In a way, as a Jerri fan, I kind of wish she could have won that one.  Especially being so damn close to at least making the final 3!  During her first season, I considered her a different kind of villain than Richard Hatch the season before, more a true villain of Survivor.  She didn't seem to expect or take the criticism well, and especially after getting booed off the stage at AS, I was surprised she came back again.  She definitely seemed to enjoy herself a lot more.  I think she knew it was likely her last time playing, so why not take advantage and just sit back and relax? 

I loved the hug she gave Colby when he was voted off.

Edited August 8, 2017 by LadyChatts

[fishcakes]

19 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

I loved the hug she gave Colby when he was voted off.

I liked her little, "hi, Colby" when they ended up on opposite sides of a wall during a challenge. She said that whatever animosity they had from Outback and All-Stars was over by this season and it wasn't shown, but they often sat around the camp chatting with each other, which seemed to surprise the other players. I think it's nice that they were finally able to be friends -- or friendly, at least.

[LadyChatts]

3 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I liked her little, "hi, Colby" when they ended up on opposite sides of a wall during a challenge. She said that whatever animosity they had from Outback and All-Stars was over by this season and it wasn't shown, but they often sat around the camp chatting with each other, which seemed to surprise the other players. I think it's nice that they were finally able to be friends -- or friendly, at least.

Aww, I wish they would have shown more moments like that (I wish they'd go back to doing that in general).  It's funny, because I watched Outback and HvsV back to back, and it was weird seeing Colby and Jerri in their first season, and looking/acting totally different in another.  It was like watching their offspring during Outback.  And then seeing how different their relationship was, when I had just watched them dissing each other one week earlier lol

[Star Aristille]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 2:35 PM, fishcakes said:

I liked her little, "hi, Colby" when they ended up on opposite sides of a wall during a challenge.

And he said, "Hi, Jerri" right back!  Cute!

[fishcakes]

Now I'm imagining someone who's never seen Survivor stumbling onto this thread and wondering why we think it's cute that two people said hi to each other.

[KimberStormer]

That whole challenge is amazing.  Every matchup is exactly perfect.  Not only Jerri VS Colby, but Danielle VS Candice, Courtney VS Amanda, Sandra VS Rupert, and my favorite, Parvati VS JT.  It's a perfect foreshadowing of the merge; the Villain women crushing the deluded and arrogant Hero men who think they've got it all figured out, and Russell sitting on the sidelines, similarly deluded thinking he's in control of it all, and of course getting an extremely unusual mid-challenge confessional to take credit for something he had absolutely nothing to do with.  Amazing Sandra banter showing how, as we all know, she can get loud, yet still get the votes of everyone she's mocking.  Also Probst explicitly saying that obviously nobody but JT could possibly be considered the strongest on the Heroes team, especially not Amanda and Candice!  It's like a whole season of Survivor in one challenge.

And wow, watching it now after Game Changers, everyone looks so young.

[LadyChatts]

Oh, one quick question.  During the RC that Danielle/Colby/Amanda went on, where Danielle found the idol clue and Amanda tried to take it from her-would Amanda have been allowed to keep it?  I know if an idol is found by a person, no one can steal it, but is the same rule applied for the clue?

I actually loved that reward, because while those two are wrestling with the clue, Colby's just laying on the bed and probably wondering why it was he got stuck with those two.  He knew his days were numbered, and he laid there like he knew it and he was just going to enjoy the moment.  And it was hysterical that Probst makes this big deal about them having a big comfy bed to sleep in, and they had to share that on dinky bed.

Edited August 11, 2017 by LadyChatts

[simplyme]

5 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

Oh, one quick question.  During the RC that Danielle/Colby/Amanda went on, where Danielle found the idol clue and Amanda tried to take it from her-would Amanda have been allowed to keep it?  I know if an idol is found by a person, no one can steal it, but is the same rule applied for the clue?

A clue to a hidden HII gets stolen from one player by another in Cagayan (S28). So... apparently it's okay?

I put the details in a spoiler tag in case anyone hasn't seen that season. I guess I'm overly paranoid or something. (I'm rewatching Cagayan right now. Tony's paranoia is contagious!)

Spoiler

Woo takes Spencer's clue to a hidden immunity idol when Spencer leaves it with his pants. (Spencer was wearing his swim trunks.) Woo takes off with it and Spencer can't catch him. Woo shares it with his alliance. Spencer realizes he's screwed and grabs his alliance. So the whole tribe is out there looking for this idol.

Spencer eventually finds the HII without anyone actually seeing him do so, despite Kass being right there.

[LadyChatts]

Ok thanks!  I thought that had been the case another time, but I couldn't remember when.

[Lamb18]

There was something similar with Scott, Jason and Alicia in their season (forgot the name/number). It was Aubrey and Tai's season.

[queenbee9b]

This was my first season of Survivor.  I watched it for two reason - it is supposedly the best season and 2. I am huge big brother fan and I kept hearing this season that Paul (spoiler for the B.B. part) 

Spoiler

Pulled a russel hantz

So I needed to see exactly what that meant and let me tell you -  yep pretty good comparison!  Since this is on Hulu I feel like need to catch up and binge watch the next 14 seasons :)

[Lamb18]

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 6:46 PM, queenbee9b said:

This was my first season of Survivor.  I watched it for two reason - it is supposedly the best season and 2. I am huge big brother fan and I kept hearing this season that Paul (spoiler for the B.B. part) 

  Reveal hidden contents

Pulled a russel hantz

So I needed to see exactly what that meant and let me tell you -  yep pretty good comparison!  Since this is on Hulu I feel like need to catch up and binge watch the next 14 seasons :)

Hi QueenBee98, I'm almost halfway through this season. You should watch the season prior to this - Russell's first season - and the Paul comparison is even stronger. I noticed it the first episode.

I'm finding this season very entertaining. Russell seems kind of diluted, even though he's being his Russelly self, because there's other plotting going on that gets attention. Actually I liked Rob pretty well, he's grown up. I wish Russell had been voted out instead of Rob. Liked how Rob rejected Coach in his good-bye, I think Coach was the lone vote for Courtney. Russell is a good player. If he had a better personality people wouldn't hate him so much. That Tyson vote-off was risky but masterful. I'm trying to figure out why people get persuaded by Russell. It's one thing in his first season where it's all newbies, but in this season where they all know each other and he's the new kid, how does he suck them in? Why would Parvati ally with him just because he goes up to her and says, "Let's be allies"?

Regarding Parvati, I'm torn on her. She's not an evil villainess, but she makes me uneasy and I finally figured out why. In real life, she'd be a person I'm not able to read. I wouldn't be able to figure out how she really felt about me or other people. What I do like about her is that she laughs at herself.

[fishcakes]

1 hour ago, Lamb18 said:

Why would Parvati ally with him just because he goes up to her and says, "Let's be allies"?

Because Samoa and HvV were filmed back to back, none of the HvV players had seen Russell play, but the rumor is that Parvati had been tipped off about him from Lynne Spillman, the casting director, who she was good friends with. Not necessarily that he lost, but about how he played the game in Samoa and how he alienated people by being abrasive and full of himself. So the thinking goes that she allied with him because she knew he'd be a good goat for her and just didn't anticipate how unlikable he was and how that poison her own standing with the jury. I have no idea if this rumor is true or not, and if it is, I think it was probably not as nefarious as people have made it sound; I doubt that Spillman was actively trying to help Parvati or told her much more than that he was kind of a dick to people in Samoa. Mostly I think Parvati allied with Russell because hardly anyone else was willing to work with her; she had Danielle, but everyone else wanted her out early because she is super charismatic and can turn enemies into allies or at the very least get them to vote for her to win the million. I mean, she got Eliza to vote for her to win in Micronesia, and Eliza justifiably hated her during the game for being a mean girl but then actually ran up to her at the reunion saying, "I love you! I voted for you!" So that's some voodoo that Parvati does.

[KimberStormer]

That rumor never made any sense to me.  Everyone can tell Russell is abrasive and full of himself after spending an hour with him.  I agree with you that the real reason is that nobody else would work with her.  Dalton Ross interviewed the cast before the game started and asked who they wanted to vote out first and almost everyone said Parvati.  Micronesia was looming large in their minds as the most recent returnee season.

[kikaha]

3 hours ago, fishcakes said:

 Mostly I think Parvati allied with Russell because hardly anyone else was willing to work with her; she had Danielle, but everyone else wanted her out early because she is super charismatic and can turn enemies into allies or at the very least get them to vote for her to win the million.

After the season ended, Parvati said no one besides Russell and Danielle would work with her.  She walked into that game with a target a mile wide on her back.  Even that first episode villains were lining up to vote her out: both because she plays so great, and also due to the close friendships they thought she had with the heroes.  Surviving and making it to the end is one of the great accomplishments in Survivor history IMO.  

[Star Aristille]

9 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

Russell is a good player. If he had a better personality people wouldn't hate him so much. That Tyson vote-off was risky but masterful. I'm trying to figure out why people get persuaded by Russell.

Russell is not a good player.  Don't even think that he played well at any point in time in this season or the one before.  The Tyson vote-off was Tyson's own dumb ass being stupid, not Russell himself.  He didn't convince him to do jack shit.  Tyson himself said that it was actually Parvati who got him to ruin the split vote, and they didn't show it.  He got very paranoid, Courtney tried to talk him off the ledge, but she failed.  Russell playing the idol on Parvati was because he really thought his pitch to Tyson hadn't worked, and it hadn't.  He got very, very, very lucky that Tyson messed up the split vote.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Star Aristille

[Lamb18]

14 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

Don't even think that he played well at any point in time in this season or the one before.

I can if I want to and I do. I don't like him but he got people to do what he wanted and that's what good players do. He came up with plans and got them to work. His downfall is his arrogance.  Of course J.T. helped him out, too. J.T. was like a junior high girl with a crush on the popular boy, writing notes and taping them to the locker door. I can't believe how stupid that was and why anyone in the Heroes thought it was a good idea.

[Oholibamah]

4 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

I can if I want to and I do. I don't like him but he got people to do what he wanted and that's what good players do. He came up with plans and got them to work. His downfall is his arrogance.  Of course J.T. helped him out, too. J.T. was like a junior high girl with a crush on the popular boy, writing notes and taping them to the locker door. I can't believe how stupid that was and why anyone in the Heroes thought it was a good idea.

Candice and Amanda voiced their hesitation, but the Hero men weren't about to listen to any evil wimminfolk.

JT's move was medium-risk high-reward. If it had worked, he'd be the genius who gained a 6-4 advantage and avoided a tie vote. 

What's more risky: a calculated move based on observable data, or pulling a random rock? If he'd kept the Hero Idol, maybe he'd play it for the right person. But it's more likely 3 Heroes would be pulling rocks versus only 2 villains. 

(FWIW, I think Parvati knew Jerri was a more likely target but played the first Idol for Sandra to try and secure her loyalty. If she'd only had one, I'm sure she would have played it for Jerri).

[Star Aristille]

9 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

I can if I want to and I do. I don't like him but he got people to do what he wanted and that's what good players do. He came up with plans and got them to work.

Nope.  They only listened to him because they knew he could do whatever he wanted and just lose in the end because he was that terrible.  Which -- oh, wow! -- he did.  Not a good player.

4 hours ago, Oholibamah said:

JT's move was medium-risk high-reward. If it had worked, he'd be the genius who gained a 6-4 advantage and avoided a tie vote.

. . . Which he made based on no information whatsoever.  Or, rather, false information.  Nothing to laud about that, either.

[SVNBob]

13 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

I can't believe how stupid that was and why anyone in the Heroes thought it was a good idea.

So glad I posted my definitive* defense of the Idol Pass a while ago, and only have to link to it now whenever the subject comes up again.

 

* "Definitive" meaning the argument I posted is exactly as I want it and mean it; no changes necessary.  As always, everyone has their own equally valid opinion that may not necessarily agree with mine.

Edited October 19, 2017 by SVNBob

[KimberStormer]

I've posted mine too, which is easy enough to find!  You've probably all yelled at me for it already!

[kikaha]

JT's idol problems began when Amanda caught him with it.  Otherwise he keeps the idol for himself, Russell never gets a whiff of it until it's played at tribal, and that season probably changes dramatically.

Still I think JT made a real poor choice.  I see it the exact opposite way as Bamah.  i.e. IMO it was (very) high-risk, medium reward.  JT knew nothing about what was going on in the villains tribe.  He and the tool Rupert made a series of assumptions, that were radically, 180 degrees wrong.  Those wrong assumptions were so high-risk, the entire game turned on them.  They got JT booted the very next episode and let the villains quickly run the table on the rest of the heroes.  That's almost the definition of high-risk. 

As for potential reward, even if JT had been right about the mythical women's alliance, giving the idol to Russell wouldn't necessarily put the numbers on JT's side.  JT and the other heroes knew nothing about Russell or his allegiances, or who he would work with.  Loyalty in this game is often fleeting. 

BTW, I think Parv was one of the main reasons JT and the heroes feared the 'women's alliance' so much.  They knew she did that her last game, and they saw the men getting picked off.  If I'm right, this is another major impact Parvati had on that season: her reputation and knowledge of her past play helped convince some very good Survivor contestants to do something that ended up sealing their doom. 

Finally, a few of the hero women initially had misgivings about JT's plan, but IIRC in the end they gave it their blessing as well. 

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, kikaha said:

BTW, I think Parv was one of the main reasons JT and the heroes feared the 'women's alliance' so much.

Well, yes. That and JT historically will almost always vote off a woman over a man, especially any woman who isn't kissing his ass egregiously. Rewatch Tocantins sometime with that in mind. Although Fishbach gets credit for balancing out JT, it's Taj who drags them both back into sanity when JT wants to do things like vote off Sierra instead of Tyson. And even though they repeatedly catch Coach lying, in their talking heads both JT and Fishbach talk about how honorable Coach is, and how he tries to play the game without lying. It's Taj who rolls her eyes at Coach's bs and refuses to buy any of it. I've never understood why Fishbach got the credit for being the strategic one. I mean, he outlasted Taj, but imo she did great to make it as far as she did with that cast.

[Lamb18]

I finished watching the season and now I understand why Star Astille says Russell is a lousy player and why others love Parvati. Russell tanked in the second half and Parvati got stronger and really fun to watch. If I'd been watching this season when it aired I think I would have been cheering for Parvati. Russell tanked after being so masterful in getting his alliance together because not only did he need control over every aspect of the game, including others', but he expected everybody else to give him control over their game and was puzzled why they wouldn't do that. I loved how Parvati refused to be intimidated by him and would laugh at him. She kind of had Russell wrapped around her little finger while he thought she was wrapped around his. In the meantime, stealth Sandra is just biding her time, just doing what's best for her game. I think Rupert's speech at final tribal persuaded Heroes to vote for her.

I quick looked at some of the above posts - Parvati did have some good relationships with the women but they weren't shown that much. I didn't realize until the end that Sandra and Parvati got along pretty well, when they were lying on the blanket together and laughing at Russell.

I've read posts about Brandon Hantz and his psychological problems, but at the reunion I could see some of it in Russell. He was dead serious in thinking the game should be changed so that he could win. That's some delusional thinking. And what was America thinking to vote him fan favorite?

[LadyChatts]

I'm just glad Rupert didn't win it.  I liked Russell to a point.  I think he had the right ideas when it came to game play, he just executed it very poorly.  And he was horrible from a social stand point.  He might have been able to win over some Heroes (namely JT) had he not been such a blow hard about screwing him over about the idol.  Had he made the rational argument that the Heroes were the ones who thought he was in trouble, and he ran with it, and it was just game play, he might have earned some respect.

But in reality, Sandra was always going to have Rupert/Courtney, Parvati Danielle/and probably Jerri/Coach.  I doubt Amanda or Candice would have voted for Parvati, and likely wouldn't have voted for Russell, even if he had been better to them.  So it was Sandra's to lose.  I think Parvati played a better overall game, but I can't completely argue with Sandra's win.  At least she tried to warn the Heroes.  Too bad JT decided he wanted to play leader and the other Heroes had to listen to him.

Edited October 23, 2017 by LadyChatts

[ljenkins782]

Just rewatched this season, I forgot how good it was. And this season, more than many others, just seems to have so many "what ifs" that could have easily changed the game entirely. Such tiny details, like Tyson deviating from the plan and voting himself out, would have upended the entire game. Russell would have been gone and Parvati very easily could have followed him out the door.

The Heroes played too hard too soon on the strategy portion. Getting Cirie out was a smart move because of her mental strength and I don't think she had as big of an impact on the physical strength, but ditching Tom and Stephenie so early probably wasn't a great idea. Stephenie especially didn't seem like much of a strategic threat, but was a strong competitor so I'd have kept her for challenges. 

Not that the tribe designations always make sense based on theme, but some of these were really off the wall. Candice and Danielle should have been swapped, Candice could be termed a villain for the mutiny move and Danielle didn't do anything at all in her first season to earn a villain label. 

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Also this was the season he had a wicked diaper rash thing going on. There were secret scenes of him walking bowlegged because of the chafing. He really did not have a good time out there. I was surprised that he played the third time; after All-Stars, he said that playing a second time was completely different because he didn't feel that drive to compete. By the HvV season, he did seem completely checked out. As I recall, the only challenge he did well in was shuffleboard, which was sad to me because for all the talk in the Game Changers season about how rare it was for anyone to win 5 ICs, in the Outback season, Colby won 5 individual ICs and 3 individual RCs. In each of the last six episodes, he won either reward or immunity, and twice, he won both. As far as individual challenges go, I think he has the record, though to be fair, in later seasons there weren't as many individual reward challenges because they did so many of them in teams of two.

Colby was such a dead fish in this season. As amusing as the "Colby fails at challenges" montage was, it was also a little sad given his former dominance. But I've never been a Colby fan and felt like he wore the "Hero" label nearly as ridiculously as Rupert did. 

The most memorable moment of the season for him was him passively sitting by while Amanda and Danielle had an actual catfight during Treasure Island, lol.