S02.E10: I Live Here Now

[txhorns79]

When I compare how Nora handled randomly losing her entire young/healthy family, to Meg losing her older mother from natural causes - it just makes me despise Meg all the more.  How proud she was of herself.  And I really resented the implication that it was Meg's wisdom that led Tom back to his family.  She was his rapist!  Yuck.

 

I'd offer a slight defense of Meg, only saying that her mother may have been older and died from natural causes, but the death was sudden and unexpected.  Add that to her mother's death then being immediately overshadowed by a massive, traumatic worldwide event, and I can see how it could really screw someone up.  

 

Also, it took Nora years and a new baby to get to where she is now.  If I remember right, she spent the first two or three years following the Departure in some kind of limbo where she was still going through a routine that pretended her family was still there, when not getting shot in the chest by prostitutes. 

 

I don't say that to say that Meg's actions have been justified, just that a number of the characters have gone to very dark places in their grief.       

[shapeshifter]

Something I'm left questioning - didn't Matt have a memory that implies he had sex with Laurie? I've always wondered if that was the true reason she was so ambivalent about her pregnancy. Maybe it was Matt's, or she was unsure.

Mary didn't know she was pregnant because her last moment of consciousness was making love with Matt. Most women don't know they are pregnant for weeks; a few (like myself) suspect it the next day because of lack of protection and awareness of time of ovulation, but Mary had been unable to conceive throughout their marriage until that point.

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Ohhh Pallas, what a crucial, clarifying catch.  Thank you:  

The credits list a character, Snake Woman. Of course: the strangely pierced woman who snatched Lily from Nora, mirroring the opening scene of the seasons and the snake that wrapped itself around the newborn -- whose mother, like Nora, also crouched on her hands and knees over the baby, once she'd re-claimed her from the threat. 

 

I felt punched in the gut, when Kevin said to John, "Maybe she didn't love you" - to explain Evie's actions.  Because that's not a fair conclusion about Any Teenage Action; because feeling unloved is so intrinsic and universal; because what did that conclusion reflect about Laurie, who had really though only recently, given her best help to Kevin?  What did it mean about Nora, who also ran away?

 

Maybe Kevin's hotel return was designed to have him accept and forgive both women who abandoned him.  'Cuz it did.  

[txhorns79]

I felt punched in the gut, when Kevin said to John, "Maybe she didn't love you" - to explain Evie's actions.  Because that's not a fair conclusion about Any Teenage Action; because feeling unloved is so intrinsic and universal; because what did that conclusion reflect about Laurie, who had really though only recently, given her best help to Kevin?  What did it mean about Nora, who also ran away?

 

I'm sure there are teenagers who do nasty things to show they don't love someone or something.  I just viewed Evie as a very disturbed person, who was extremely angry over various things in her life, and wanted to get some kind of revenge on the world for feeling the way she did.     

[RedheadZombie]

Mary didn't know she was pregnant because her last moment of consciousness was making love with Matt. Most women don't know they are pregnant for weeks; a few (like myself) suspect it the next day because of lack of protection and awareness of time of ovulation, but Mary had been unable to conceive throughout their marriage until that point.

 

I was actually referring to Laurie's pregnancy, not Mary's.  Since Matt had some sort of flashback which implied he had sex with Laurie, I wondered if that was part of her ambivalence about her pregnancy.

[shapeshifter]

I was actually referring to Laurie's pregnancy, not Mary's.  Since Matt had some sort of flashback which implied he had sex with Laurie, I wondered if that was part of her ambivalence about her pregnancy.

Whoops. Sorry. I can't remember that (last season, though, right?) and just glossed over "Laurie" because in this episode Mary's pregnancy was more the focus.

Now I wonder if a Laurie-Matt-pregnancy was a dropped plot point.

[Mindymoo]

Whoops. Sorry. I can't remember that (last season, though, right?) and just glossed over "Laurie" because in this episode Mary's pregnancy was more the focus.

Now I wonder if a Laurie-Matt-pregnancy was a dropped plot point.

No, that was a dream sequence. He was dreaming about having sex with his wife, and her face turned into Laurie's.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Leftovers Ends With A Lot Of Emotion, But Is It Human?
With the season finale, Matt Debenham looks back on Season 2.

[scrb]

So one theory is that the Departure proves a superior being doesn't care about family, since families throughout the world had their loved ones ripped away from them with no explanation.

And that's why Meg says family is everything.

Whatever, philosophers have been wrestling with theodicy for hundreds of years.

[RedheadZombie]

I'd offer a slight defense of Meg, only saying that her mother may have been older and died from natural causes, but the death was sudden and unexpected.  Add that to her mother's death then being immediately overshadowed by a massive, traumatic worldwide event, and I can see how it could really screw someone up.  

 

Also, it took Nora years and a new baby to get to where she is now.  If I remember right, she spent the first two or three years following the Departure in some kind of limbo where she was still going through a routine that pretended her family was still there, when not getting shot in the chest by prostitutes. 

 

I don't say that to say that Meg's actions have been justified, just that a number of the characters have gone to very dark places in their grief.

I just can't with Meg. She's pissed because two percent of the world's population disappeared the day after her mother died and stole her thunder. That shows a self-involvement on a level I've only ever seen by a few brides I've known. Thank God people who had loved ones die on 9/10/2011 didn't become rapists and terrorists.

Even though Nora was in a limbo of sorts, I still hold her miles above Meg. Meg knew her mother minimally suffered and is now at peace. Those whose loved ones departed don't have that comfort. I imagine Nora wondered if her children were alive somewhere, frightened, in pain, and crying for their mother. I've heard parents of abducted children say that learning they're dead is so much easier than not knowing.

I also feel the need to point out that Nora hurt only herself with her pain, whereas Meg is taking great satisfaction in terrorizing, raping, and murdering people. I think she's a monster, and I resent that the show seems to be backing away from that, and already attempting to redeem her.

To think, that bicyclist was killed because he may have seen the three girls. Evie and her two angsty friends really need to know what their hoax brought about. I'd like to see Tom to turn in the GR for that murder.

[Joimiaroxeu]

When Kevin was doing that karaoke I started getting a Twin Peaks vibe and not in a good way. I think it was a powerful finale and effectively tied up many loose ends but so much of it was basically filler, IMO.

 

I didn't know who Justin Theroux was until this show and I've never been a particularly big fan of Jennifer Anniston's. But dang, when Kevin fell out of that bathtub all I could think was that Jen done good for herself. Real good. I hope JT gets some Emmy love but if he's in the running against Liev Schreiber, oy, my loyalties will be so divided...

[Desperately Random]

 

I didn't know who Justin Theroux was until this show and I've never been a particularly big fan of Jennifer Anniston's. But dang, when Kevin fell out of that bathtub all I could think was that Jen done good for herself. Real good. I hope JT gets some Emmy love but if he's in the running against Liev Schreiber, oy, my loyalties will be so divided...

Same here. Never heard of Justin Theroux until this show but I have definitely become a fan. (And yes, Jen did good.) He did an amazing job and I will be looking for him in the future.

I do hope this show gets a third season. I really enjoyed both seasons and would love to see what happens next for most of these characters. If this show does come back, I hope they stay in Miracle but I could do without the GR. They are tolerable in small doses, like this season, but I would want to see them dealt with quickly and not have them around for more than a couple of episodes.

[Pallas]

Since Matt had some sort of flashback which implied he had sex with Laurie, I wondered if that was part of her ambivalence about her pregnancy.

 

Not a flashback, a hallucination after Matt was stoned by a drive-by assailant, while going to the aid of Guilty Remnant. He had seen Laurie the night before, keeping watch outside her family's home. He'd spoken to her kindly, and she'd asked him (by note) not to tell her family she'd been there.  He replied, "I won't tell if you won't," a Matt kind of joke.  His hallucination while he was unconscious for three days revisited his having had leukemia as a child, and his and Nora's parents dying in a fire when he was 17 and she 7. He then saw himself making love to Mary, while he kept his eye on a mournful saint in a painting on their bedroom wall.  Mary mounted him, asked him to pay attention and declared, "98%." That's when she, smiling, turned into an image of Laurie, smiling, in Guilty Remnant white.  It wasn't erotic.  

 

Matt was a friend of both Kevin Garveys, and gave a toast at the Garveys' party for Kevin Sr. the night of 10/13.  Laurie, though, was the last person he and Mary saw and spoke to -- in the waiting room of the practice where Matt had his successful cancer follow-up, and Laurie had her prenatal exam -- a few minutes before the Departure, and Mary's accident.  I think that's the meaning Laurie has for Matt: a second wife living yet lost from what he considers their extended family.  

Edited December 10, 2015 by Pallas

[represent]

OK, I just realized that the time in car at the beginning of the series when those girls were so quite, then running naked in the forest...were those times when it was safe to practice GR behavior?  Because those scenes were early on in the series and their behavior seemed weird.

 

Because I've been trying to figure out the timeline for when she meets Meg on that bench to how/when they meet up again for her to join the GR?

 

I don't get the timeline.

Edited December 13, 2015 by represent

[shapeshifter]

OK, I just realized that the time in car at the beginning of the series when those girls were so quite, then running naked in the forest...were those times when it was safe to practice GR behavior?  Because those scenes were early on in the series and their behavior seemed weird.

 

Because I've been trying to figure out the timeline for when she meets Meg on that bench to how/when they meet up again for her to join the GR?

 

I don't get the timeline.

Given how many GR were encamped outside Jarden, I don't think we can assume that Meg personally recruited Evie and her friends. I can imagine Evie & Co. checking out the carnival outside the town--because that's what aimless, disenfranchised teenagers would do--where the girls would look like fresh meat to the GR. Edited December 13, 2015 by shapeshifter

[BooBear]

A little sluthing on the next let me to Hotel Purgatory -

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/sheraton/property/overview/index.html?propertyID=3079&language=en_US

 

Also on rewatch I noticed that Purgatory this time around was at dusk while the other visit was during the day time. Not sure if that was on purpose.

[Pallas]

I don't get the timeline.

 

Meg and her Perpetual Fiance visited Jarden a few weeks after it was incorporated into the new Miracle National Park. This was likely sometime in the first two years after the Departure (October 14, 2012) and so, a year or more before the events of the first season (October 14, 2015 - Memorial Day, 2016). Season 2 occurs over a few weeks in September/October 2016.  

 

In the five months between seasons 1 and 2, Meg has surreptitiously established her own splinter group within the GR: a sort of undercover Weathermen to the SDS, or Black Panthers to the mainstream civil rights movement. She is still stationed in the Mapleton area and directs activities there, but clearly has also has authority over a cell near Jarden. I wouldn't be surprised if Meg's splinter group ran a sophisticated digital campaign: recruiting via social media, like the ISIL. Evie and Meg may have rediscovered each other online.  

 

Over the weekend before their departure Monday evening, Evie and friends had a sleep-over Friday night; early Saturday morning, they swam in Jarden Springs. (The night Evie disappeared, Michael told their father that the girls "sometimes" swam in the spring; he didn't know if they also visited at night.) After swimming, the girls drove back in silence to their homes. There Evie pretended (I think) to take her epilepsy meds, had breakfast with her family, went to school choir practice with her friends, then came home and pitched to her father in the front yard, where she told him Meg's knock-knock joke. The image of the girls running through the woods appears between the choir and softball scenes: because that's when it took place, and/or to shade-in Evie's sunny attitude at both practice sessions. Away from home, she and her friends had been practicing on their own.  

 

On Sunday, Evie went to church and out to brunch with her family. Sunday night, on the eve of his birthday and his daughter's disappearance, John watched the breaking-news report about Mark Linn-Baker's faked departure. Reporter: "Why did you do it, Mark? Why did you do it?"

[represent]

 

Given how many GR were encamped outside Jarden, I don't think we can assume that Meg personally recruited Evie and her friends. I can imagine Evie & Co. checking out the carnival outside the town--because that's what aimless, disenfranchised teenagers would do--where the girls would look like fresh meat to the GR.

OK, this makes sense to me, I was so focused on making  a connection between Evie and Meg because of their scene on the bench, that I didn't entertain the thought of Evie and her buddies doing their own leg work. 

 

Because one thing is for sure, I've been suspicious of "angelic" Evie from day one.  I never bought into the all around good girl, I think it was the way she was flirting in with that guy in the beginning, who was collecting water while they were swimming. It wasn't innocent, to me it felt like "mean girl" flirting, something that Regina George from the actual Mean Girls movie would do.  So when her mother was going on and on to Kevin about how she would never hurt anyone, I was like, I don't think so mama. I think there's a real naughty streak to your precious Evie.

 

The image of the girls running through the woods appears between the choir and softball scenes: because that's when it took place, and/or to shade-in Evie's sunny attitude at both practice sessions. Away from home, she and her friends had been practicing on their own.

 

 

Right, this is what I thought as well.

 

But like I said, I think that I was so focused on thinking of Meg playing a more active role in  Evie and her friend's joining the GR. Therefore, I was trying to figure out a timeline or how/when she and Meg met elsewhere after that initial meeting on the bench. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by represent

[stillshimpy]

I finally got a chance to watch this yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it.  I've also read everyone's comments and don't have a great deal to add other than a few stray things:  It took me a second when Evie wrote "You Understand" to get what had happened.  Erika was saying she didn't understand how Evie could do this to her family, how she could leave them with no idea what had happened to her and Evie started to crack and cry.  Her "You understand" didn't strike me as having anything to do with Virgil, or even necessarily leaving because of John's lesser nature "You understand how someone could leave an abusive home" but rather letting her mother know she knew that Erika intended to leave.  

 

I don't know if she found the stash of money, or what but the fact that Erika started crying seemed to indicate that Evie, who had not been doing well even when Meg met her, reacted almost venomously to discovering that her mother planned to leave both her and her brother.   Erika would indeed understand why and how someone would leave their family, worrying and frightening them.  Erika had also planned to do it herself. 

 

Then I really liked that the thing that gave Tom the resolve to break away from his brief sojourn into the GR was seeing that Nora and his father kept Holy Wayne's baby.  Tom had been through hell last season trying to protect that alleged savior of a child and saved something in him when he realized that Kevin and Nora had kept her.  Lilly's sure has had a tough row to hoe in terms of jobs, for someone who still can't walk, she's saved two full grown people from despair and returned them to being able to love their families again. 

 

I adore Nora.  I doubt I'd like to know her, but her "Fix that, Jesus" was hilarious as well as her face when Mary almost immediately woke up.  Matt can't just choose to go back into the town, he gave away his wristband.  If the finale did nothing else, I really appreciate the mystery of whether or not Matt had raped Mary being cleared up:  he hadn't.  

 

I personally loved the end.  John killed Kevin because he articulated his greatest fear:  that he could not be loved by those he loves.  He's damaged, he's dented and he's full of rage:  He's afraid he's too much of all of that to be worthy of love and Kevin basically told him:  Yup, that's the problem.  

 

But upon finding out that Kevin had spoken the truth, I thought the actor who plays John showed that hope and remorse as he fumbled around, desperately trying to help this man who he'd killed for speaking the truth.  Like maybe Kevin was the embodiment of his redemption. 

 

Kevin had more than earned walking in that front door and finding his family waiting for him.  All of them, in the weird, tangled family unit that they formed.  Even poor broken Laurie being included.  So I was glad that the person we were left wondering what John found on the other side of that door, because he'd earned that limbo where as Kevin had to die twice to get back home. 

Edited December 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[BooBear]

Then I really liked that the thing that gave Tom the resolve to break away from his brief sojourn into the GR was seeing that Nora and his father kept Holy Wayne's baby.  Tom had been through hell last season trying to protect that alleged savior of a child and saved something in him when he realized that Kevin and Nora had kept her.  Lilly's sure has had a tough row to hoe in terms of jobs, for someone who still can't walk, she's saved two full grown people from despair and returned them to being able to love their families again.

But Tom already knew Lilly was with Kevin and Nora. Jill specifically told him when they met up at the diner.  But I liked that he does seem to have a soft spot for both Lilly and Kevin and didn't hesitate to try to save them.

[Pallas]

Her "You understand" didn't strike me as having anything to do with Virgil, or even necessarily leaving because of John's lesser nature "You understand how someone could leave an abusive home" but rather letting her mother know she knew that Erika intended to leave.

 

That's possible.  What I wonder, though, is why Evie would assume that her mother would leave her (and MIchael) behind.  We know that's what Erika had in mind, but why would Evie come to that conclusion?  And as you noted, we also saw that Evie was already literally biting down on her pain at least two years earlier, when John would have been newly returned from jail.  I'm not saying that John's presence, by itself, was making Evie miserable, but it's likely that accommodating his return after seven years put the household under strain.  

 

We did see Evie and her mother talking animatedly in sign -- with John nearby -- two nights before Evie disappeared, and I think an earlier time, as well.  But by then, Evie's plan to disappear was well underway.  All that we know that Evie knew of her mother was a wife who hadn't left her husband, who rolled her eyes at his eccentricities, took her family to church without him and believed -- as Erika told Nora -- that Evie so loved her father, she would "never understand" why Erika might leave.  It just seems to me more likely that Evie and her mother had, independently of each other, made plans to escape.  Evie, though, brought her friends along. 

[A Boston Gal]

A little sluthing on the next let me to Hotel Purgatory -

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/sheraton/property/overview/index.html?propertyID=3079&language=en_US

 

Also on rewatch I noticed that Purgatory this time around was at dusk while the other visit was during the day time. Not sure if that was on purpose.

Probably because Kareoke in the bar would more likely than not happen in the evening, I suppose.

Edited December 15, 2015 by A Boston Gal

[stillshimpy]

That's possible.  What I wonder, though, is why Evie would assume that her mother would leave her (and MIchael) behind.  We know that's what Erika had in mind, but why would Evie come to that conclusion?  And as you noted, we also saw that Evie was already literally biting down on her pain at least two years earlier, when John would have been newly returned from jail.  I'm not saying that John's presence, by itself, was making Evie miserable, but it's likely that accommodating his return after seven years put the household under strain.

 

I don't know how she was meant to know, Pallas, but it doesn't make sense to me that Evie -- who clearly understood she was punishing her parents -- would want to punish them if all she was trying to do was flee John.  To want to punish Erika to that extent, Evie had to believe that she had reason to do so.  That's a vicious thing to do to Erika.  Maybe it's the Evie just blamed her for John, or may she found a lease for a one bedroom apartment or knew that her mom was secretly withdrawing money and making plans...and not telling her anything about it, which would also be a big hint that she was leaving without either of her teen children.  

 

But it does not make sense to me that she would viciously wound Erika unless she was punishing her for something.  It's also possible she just wasn't doing well after the Departure because see: The Departure.  Hi, giant mindfuck that negates all the religious teachings in my life!  People can just disappear and although we were spared...now my mother is planning on joining them.  

 

Erika told Nora that she had been planning this for something like eight months.  Evie met Meg at least a year after the Departures (the park hadn't been opened until some time after the Departures), so I do think that it is more likely that Evie found out her mother was leaving and because she never mentioned it to Evie, knew Erika was planning on leaving without her or Michael.   Knowing that John might let her go, but he'd come after them with all his power if she took his children too <--- which was probably the big give away for Evie.  There would be no way to take to school age children with her and disappear from her father's view. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

I think either explanation is supportable, shimpy, and most of all, both cut deep into the heart of the matter. I agree that Evie wants to punish Erika -- Erika more than John. Many children hold the mother responsible for what they suffer in the home, whether it is meted out by the father or mother or both. The buck stops with the mother who stays: the children may hate and fear an abusive father, but they feel betrayed by and contemptuous of a mother who fails to act on their behalf. A mother who seems to choose the abuser over the abused. 

 

I'm not sure John was abusive to anyone in the home, but his keyed-up volatility and inflexibility must have made that home feel, at times, like a submerged submarine facing depth charges from one of its own. So in the Murphy household, I think what Evie held against Erika was that her mother seemed to choose her own denial and security, over the pain lived by her children. What I see in Evie's implacable face is repudiation for the mother who stayed, not the mother who planned to leave.

[stillshimpy]

I still disagree, Pallas, but there is no way to know unless the show actually states it. I just find the "You understand...why I'm hurting you" to be the shortest distance between two points and the most likely explanation. I just find it unlikely that Erika ever allowed Virgil anywhere near her children.

Also, Michael goes to visit him and that makes it even less likely that it had anything to do with Virgil. It's one thing to forgive your weird grandfather, hanging out in the Pie-Shed of Weirdness for what he did to your father. It's another to truck on out to the isolated shed of the guy who was also your abuser. It strikes me as unlikely even for super Christian Michael. Mostly though, we know that John tried to kill Virgil and went to jail for it and Evie and Michael were young children then.

I don't think in a million years that Erika allowed Virgil any access to either of her children after that (or even prior to that, but afterward, it just doesn't seem possible). Michael visiting Virgil and getting scolded for it by Erika suggests that it really didn't have anything to do with him. It's not likely that Virgil abused John and then abused Evie, but didn't abuse Michael. Plus, Nora was getting bricks heaved through her window for being overly challenging and insensitive to Erika. If Erika knew that Virgil had in anyway harmed her children, I think she'd have put a brick through his head.

Erika was apparently fond of telling a cute story about Michael and Evie flooding the bathtub and it had to do with their father having gone to jail (as it turned out) , but Erika had no idea that they were that upset over it. So nothing in the story adds up to Virgil and the other big clue? Virgil tells Kevin what he did and it had nothing to do with John's children.

Edited December 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

I agree, shimpy: Evie's disappearance had nothing to do with Virgil, except indirectly. I think the proximate cause was Evie's unhappiness at home. Beginning with the unexplained departure of her father when she was five, compounded by the tensions created by John's presence, and the difficulties between her parents, once he returned from prison. Underscored by Jarden's "We are spared!" boosterism, amid all the snakes -- the secrets and crossed-purpose coping mechanisms -- abounding in the Murphy household. 

[Wouldofshouldof]

My favorite exchange:

John: "I killed you."

Kevin: "Nope."

And:

"You should have bled out."

"Nuh-huh."

 

I loved every minute of this season, and that's from someone who gave up on S1 before the halfway point.

[whiporee]

I'm not sure any of the GR intentionally want to hurt their families -- I think it's just a by-product. Because to join the GR you have to be in a lot of pain. 

So I don't think Evie was trying to hurt her mom any more than she was trying to hurt all of Jarden for their smugness. I don't think her "You understand" was anything more than that. 

[Clanstarling]

That's possible.  What I wonder, though, is why Evie would assume that her mother would leave her (and MIchael) behind.  We know that's what Erika had in mind, but why would Evie come to that conclusion?  And as you noted, we also saw that Evie was already literally biting down on her pain at least two years earlier, when John would have been newly returned from jail.  I'm not saying that John's presence, by itself, was making Evie miserable, but it's likely that accommodating his return after seven years put the household under strain.  

My assumption is that Evie found out Erika was leaving by finding her go-bag. Evie's stash would clearly have been for one person. As efficient and organized as she was, if she'd intended to take her children with her, she'd have stashed bags for them as well.

 

Though my own personal take on the "You understand" isn't so much a punishment of her mother as a statement that Erika knows exactly what it feels like to need to get the hell away.

Edited December 18, 2015 by clanstarling

[aemom]

I've been watching this series on demand over the last few weeks and just finished this episode. 

This series has been weird and often disturbing,  but I'm always compelled to see what happens next. I've also really enjoyed reading all the comments for each episode here. 

I really hope that Meg gets what's coming to her. She is an absolute monster. Raping and manipulating Tom, the grenade on the school bus, and stoning that poor cyclist instead of just locking him up somewhere and then letting him go after all the drama was over. I hope that karma remembers her.

I'm looking forward to watching S3 next.