S05.E11: Swan Song

[Mathius]

Right.  Both turned away from their redemptions, both chose of their own free will to enact a plan that would kill everyone (even the Darkness influencing Hook cannot excuse him here since he still had the ability to choose), and both ended up attempting a sacrifice to undo it (with Hook actually having to go through with it, while Regina's was prevented.)  

 

The two big differences is that Regina turned away from her redemption of her own free will whereas Hook forced the Darkness on Emma even when he told her he wouldn't be strong enough to resist it, not to mention she blew any chance of him resisting by trying to control him with Excalibur, and Regina did NOT try to undo her mass murder plan of her own free will, she was forced into it when Greg & Tamara took the plan away from her and enacted it themselves, whereas Hook undoing his mass murder plan was solely due to his own choice, just like returning with the bean was in the same season finale where Regina attempted her sacrifice.  That's why it feels more justified for them to save Hook now.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Mathius

[InsertWordHere]

Yeah, Hook's actions in the finale weren't like Season 2 Regina's, they were like Season 2 Hook's. Hook helped Greg and Tamara get the failsafe in Season 2, but it wasn't his plan. Greg and Tamara had tied him up and dragged him to Storybrooke and Emma tied him to the darkness against his will in Camelot. He was just going along with Greg and Tamara's offer because it would rid him of Rumplestiltskin, much like he didn't really care what the Dark ones did to the others, as long as he got revenge on Rumple. Both times he turned away from his revenge. 

[Mitch]

Right.  Both turned away from their redemptions, both chose of their own free will to enact a plan that would kill everyone (even the Darkness influencing Hook cannot excuse him here since he still had the ability to choose), and both ended up attempting a sacrifice to undo it (with Hook actually having to go through with it, while Regina's was prevented.)  

 

The two big differences is that Regina turned away from her redemption of her own free will whereas Hook forced the Darkness on Emma even when he told her he wouldn't be strong enough to resist it, not to mention she blew any chance of him resisting by trying to control him with Excalibur, and Regina did NOT try to undo her mass murder plan of her own free will, she was forced into it when Greg & Tamara took the plan away from her and enacted it themselves, whereas Hook undoing his mass murder plan was solely due to his own choice, just like returning with the bean was in the same season finale where Regina attempted her sacrifice.  That's why it feels more justified for them to save Hook now.

I didn't mean they are not justified to save him...(actually they are really only justified to save him because of Emma who did a lot of ass saving in her past...more so then anything he has done.)..I was replying to a post where the writer acted like a "just saved from hell," gang should say nice things about Hook...I wouldnt be in the mood at that point and time, especially since he started it.  I would also mention, despite the bro-mance with Charming that fan wankers are always dreaming up, Hook really doesnt have that much of a relationship with anyone else besides Emma, and most of his good deads are "because of Emma, " including this time. Now I know people think thats terribly romantic but doesnt make him that heroic to everyone else. . Hooks very pliable that way, hell bent for revenge for hundreds of years because of a woman, now redeemed because of a woman...he hasnt really chosen it on his own.

 

Persoanlly I would tell Emma, "Yea, Ill help you but lets let him roast for a day or two for a taste of his own medicine.

 

Despite her much more vicious streak, body count and penchant for screwing up her own life, Hook and Regina have a lot in common in terms of bad people on a bumpy road to redemption. Where Regina has Henry, Hook has Emma.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Mitch

[InsertWordHere]

Hooks very pliable that way, hell bent for revenge for hundreds of years because of a woman, now redeemed because of a woman...he hasnt really chosen it on his own.

Despite how the show has written him in the last couple of seasons, this isn't true. Hook chose to turn his ship around in Season 2 because of Bae, not Emma Even in this episode, he was choosing to be the man he wants to be. 

[YaddaYadda]

Despite how the show has written him in the last couple of seasons, this isn't true. Hook chose to turn his ship around in Season 2 because of Bae, not Emma Even in this episode, he was choosing to be the man he wants to be. 

 

I read this thing yesterday, and I thought it hit the nail on the head as far as Hook's arc is concerned.

 

"We had to see this character hit rock bottom to be able to appreciate his arc, to be able to understand how his redemption is not just about Emma, it’s about who he wanted to be all along. She’s not the reason he changed, she’s the reason he decided he could." 

[InsertWordHere]

"We had to see this character hit rock bottom to be able to appreciate his arc, to be able to understand how his redemption is not just about Emma, it’s about who he wanted to be all along. She’s not the reason he changed, she’s the reason he decided he could." 

"You can join us and be a part of something or you can do what you do best and be alone."

[YaddaYadda]

"You can join us and be a part of something or you can do what you do best and be alone."

Exactly. "You and I we understand each other..."

 

There are people who want to change, there are others who don't.

[Jul 68]

Adam tweeted a script piece where Snowing, Regina and Henry say they're coming with her to get Hook

https://mobile.twitter.com/OUATSpoilers/status/674464382122745856/photo/1

Just a thought. This is nearly 2016 and the age of internet. Why doesn't ABC take the footage lopped off of this episode (clearly so that we could get Bear King, which I'm sure was MUCH more ABC/Disney's idea than A&Es) and make it a webisode? It would certainly go a long way toward calming the viewers down. If it was already filmed, it shouldn't cost too much more to finish it and paste it online during the hiatus. They could even couch it as a Christmas present to the fans.

[Dianthus]

I really liked what Snow had to say in that piece. I hope we'll still get to hear her say some variation of it eventually.

[Mathius]

I'm glad the scene where Hook is able to use Excalibur's power (which earlier in the episode Rumple said only works when the blade deems the wielder a worthy hero) on Nimue and the other DOs happened.  The A&E-scripted line from 5x05 "All you need is one good hand and a sword (to be a hero)" was too heavily foreshadowing Hook for it to not have pay-off.

 

Yeah, Hook's actions in the finale weren't like Season 2 Regina's, they were like Season 2 Hook's.

 

It fits with what Colin said about Dark Hook, that he's evil S2 Hook amplified 1000x over.  So we get an amplified version of the S2 finale's events, with Hook directly causing the damage, but ending with Hook still making the exact same choice because he truly wants to be a hero at his core.  Many were worried this arc was ruining his redemption, but it really only solidified it.

 

Hook chose to turn his ship around in Season 2 because of Bae, not Emma

 

Well, Emma was part of it.  It was Bae, and Bae's son Henry, and the mother of that son who he already felt an attraction to, Emma. Those three people together were the big influences. Even in that finale, he credits Emma with "helping remind him" that he could care about more than himself.  Which is what that reviewer said: she's a reminder / motivator, but not the reason.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Mathius

[darkestboy]

Okay, that went all a bit Becoming Part 2, didn't it? Not worried about Hook as we've gotten into the Underworld bit so he'll get saved in due course.

 

Nice that Emma is no longer the Dark One. Kind of tedious but expected that Gold is once again.

 

It was evil of her but Regina sending Zelena back to Oz kind of made me laugh. Zelena also will no doubt be back too.

 

Glad they sort of resolved the Dark One stuff, wished the Camelot stuff had been dealt with as well though.

 

Nice enough Hook flashbacks in this one too, 7/10

[Mitch]

Okay, that went all a bit Becoming Part 2, didn't it? Not worried about Hook as we've gotten into the Underworld bit so he'll get saved in due course.

 

Nice that Emma is no longer the Dark One. Kind of tedious but expected that Gold is once again.

 

It was evil of her but Regina sending Zelena back to Oz kind of made me laugh. Zelena also will no doubt be back too.

 

Glad they sort of resolved the Dark One stuff, wished the Camelot stuff had been dealt with as well though.

 

I don't get why Regina getting rid of Zelena was evil..Zelena helped arrange her death, Robin's death and Henry's death (hugs to Zelena on that one)  so she could take over Storybrooke (though I do want to see Zelena in charge as she and I have the same view of those annoying drawfs) and in usual Zelena fashion, told them all about her plan to turn her kid bad...(note to Zelena, telegraphing your evil plans to your opponets has never worked for you so just stop it.) However, we know she shall be back and I just hope she teams with Maleficent to take over Storybrooke while the Justice League is in Hell.

 

Its very tedious that Gold is the Dark One again. I liked him as Wild Card and going back to Mr. Gold, manipulating non magically everyone is sight under those idiots radar.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Mitch

[Shanna Marie]

I don't get why Regina getting rid of Zelena was evil..Zelena helped arrange her death, Robin's death and Henry's death (hugs to Zelena on that one)  so she could take over Storybrooke

I think it's more the hypocrisy of it -- it was terribly evil for Emma to have come up with the plan to put the Darkness in Zelena and kill her, even though she was responsible for the current situation from her betraying them to Arthur and tethering Merlin to Excalibur, which led to Hook's mortal paper cut that led to him becoming the Dark One, and Emma still got lectured on this by her mother and Regina even after Zelena was the one who gave Hook his memories back and made him back into the Dark One. But it was perfectly okay for Regina to send her to Oz just to keep her away from the baby, and this was treated like some kind of "now I believe in myself and everyone else believes in me, so I can use the wand!" triumph, even though at the beginning of the season the reason Regina couldn't use the wand was that she wasn't dark enough anymore.

 

While there are superficial similarities to Becoming in the way Hook died, I don't think it goes any closer than "blonde heroine has to kill her formerly evil lover to save the world." Angel had his soul forced back into him at a very bad time -- not soon enough to keep him from starting the world ending scheme, but too soon for it to be Angelus who was killed. When Angel returned, he didn't know what was going on and had no choice in the decision to sacrifice him. Hook, on the other hand, pulled himself out of Darkness and was the one who came up with the way to stop it all by sacrificing himself. He just needed Emma to take the final action. It's very different character and plot arcs between the two shows.

 

As for the difference between Regina in season 2 and Hook now in stopping their own evil and the reaction of the others, with Regina, she wasn't their friend or ally at the time. She had, while in full possession of herself, come up with the plan to kill them all and apparently would have gone through with it without a qualm if Tamara and Greg hadn't hijacked it. She didn't stop it because she realized it was wrong, but because it wasn't going according to her plan and would leave Henry alone, and she never apologized or said that plan was wrong. Up to that point, she'd never really helped the good guys with anything (other than a bit during Team Princess, but they were in that fix because they were saving her from the wraith). Instead, she'd just spent decades torturing them. Hook, on the other hand, has put himself on the line time and again to help them. Henry and David owe him their lives from the Neverland adventure. Emma and Henry wouldn't be in their lives again if Hook hadn't sold his ship so he could reach them, and Emma probably wouldn't be in their lives now if Hook hadn't followed her through the time portal. They might all still be trapped in the AU if Hook hadn't sacrificed himself so that Emma and Henry could carry on with their mission. He had a lot to do with Emma holding out against the Darkness for as long as she did, and he was in his current fix because he got wounded saving Snow's life. So even if he had put their lives in danger while under the Darkness and his current sacrifice was only undoing his own evil, they owe him a lot for all the other stuff he's done.

 

And with Regina in season two, the thing is that they didn't let her make the sacrifice. They were willing to risk everything to find a way to get out of that without her dying, and when it looked like that failed, they still went to stand by her and were apparently going to die with her if Emma hadn't remembered that she also had magic. So, yeah, they do kind of have a reason to go save Hook now, even if his plan as Dark One was to drag them into hell and he died to stop that.

[Dianthus]

It occurs to me that thanks to (BS) Fairy dust anointed True Love, OQ will never have to face any kind of real challenge to their relationship, especially not something on this level. I guess you could argue that makes Robin one lucky bastard, but it does come with Regina, so there's that. Despite all the angst, I still think Hook got the better deal on this one.

[Camera One]

How could Hook kill his father with the son just inside the hut, knowing full well that he would put the boy through exactly what he went through?  Was he driven to murder by jealousy, that the boy had what he didn't?  Was he miffed that the dad didn't name the boy Killian and instead chose his older brother's name?

 

It reminded me of the scene when Rumple decided to spare Robin after finding out his wife was pregnant.  Presumably, that was because Rumple had a glimpse of humanity when he remembered his own child.

[InsertWordHere]

How could Hook kill his father with the son just inside the hut, knowing full well that he would put the boy through exactly what he went through?  Was he driven to murder by jealousy, that the boy had what he didn't?  Was he miffed that the dad didn't name the boy Killian and instead chose his older brother's name?

IDK, but I'm a bit miffed at him about it. I don't think it had to do with not naming the boy after him. I think in his mind he was getting revenge for what his father did to Liam and what he thought his father would inevitably do to Liam 2. He also was willing to go against what Regina wanted him to do, risking his plan of revenge on Rumple, until suddenly he wasn't. I think he just decided his father's life wasn't worth losing his chance at revenge. The funny thing is Regina was lying to him about that and he would have been cursed with the rest of them. Not that this justifies orphaning his brother. IDK, that flashback is really a hot mess.

 

I really hope he made some sort of arrangements for Liam 2 because this is a man who just spent 100 years in Neverland listening to the cries of Lost Boys at night, who noticed right away that Emma was a Lost Girl when he met her, and I really don't want him to have just orphaned his brother and left him there, another Lost Boy in the making. 

[Mathius]

I think in his mind he was getting revenge for what his father did to Liam and what he thought his father would inevitably do to Liam 2.

 

That was clearly the reasoning, he thought his father's remorse was all fake since apparently Liam was so "easy to replace", and he said "you're wrong, people don't change", meaning he thought his father was still the same and would inevitably abandon his new son too.  He wasn't thinking that he would be doing the same thing to Liam 2 as what was done to him because he was barely thinking at all, this was a crime of passion driven purely by his emotions.

 

Was he driven to murder by jealousy, that the boy had what he didn't? 

 

 

No, he was sad that this boy had a chance with his father that he never had, but he visibly wasn't angered by it.  He only became angry when he heard his father say the same thing he had to him, and then heard that the boy's name was Liam.

 

Was he miffed that the dad didn't name the boy Killian and instead chose his older brother's name?

 

If he named him Killian, that would have been even WORSE.  Hook would be even more pissed then.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Mathius

[oliverwendell]

 

I think in his mind he was getting revenge for what his father did to Liam and what he thought his father would inevitably do to Liam 2.

 

I thought it was interesting that in several post-episode interviews Colin explained Hook's motivation for killing his father was that he thought his father was feeding Liam 2 the same lies he'd fed him all those years ago, and that he was going to abandon Liam 2 just as he'd abandoned him. I didn't think that was made clear in the episode at all. Papa Hook asked for two letters of transit, not one. He told Hook he would never abandon Liam 2 the way he had his older sons, and I believed him because he'd found true love, which apparently makes bad people into good people on this show. So if they wanted us to think Hook snapped when he saw another son of his father about to suffer the same abandonment he had, they needed to do do a better job, IMO.

[CalamityBoPeep]

Well, haven't watched, skimmed the comments and I guess it is true - I'm out. Sigh.

 

Yep, me too. I've been reading the boards for the last eps, (since Hook turned dark, and I got so mad at the show)... and I'm out. I had let the DVR record, just in case, and ended up deleting without watching. 

 

I'll probably continue to follow on the boards, and if I ever see a season or half-season finale board where everyone's going "Oh my gawd, they finished the story without wrecking it, and without leaving a bazillion loose ends! It was incredibly well done and satisfying!"... well, then I may consider watching that arc via a streaming service. But I'm done investing my time, emotion, and energy to have these "writers" (more like "hacks", in my mind) drop every significant story idea into a pile of steaming crap.

 

Love these boards... so many people here are so much better at coming up with good ideas than the actual writers on the show... but I just can't anymore.

[Rumsy4]

I really hope he made some sort of arrangements for Liam 2 because this is a man who just spent 100 years in Neverland listening to the cries of Lost Boys at night, who noticed right away that Emma was a Lost Girl when he met her, and I really don't want him to have just orphaned his brother and left him there, another Lost Boy in the making.

Yeah. It was a crime of passion, but still there was that moment he could have stopped.

I too hope he at least made some arrangements for his half-brother to be cared for. But I'm afraid the Show is going to drop this story line for now.

[YaddaYadda]

Yeah. It was a crime of passion, but still there was that moment he could have stopped.

I too hope he at least made some arrangements for his half-brother to be cared for. But I'm afraid the Show is going to drop this story line for now.

The show will probably drop that story, I'm thinking.

 

At the same time, whether he made arrangements for him, or not, the curse was going to happen days later, so he was going to get pulled into Storybrooke anyway.

 

At least, I'm assuming this is where he is.

[Rumsy4]

At the same time, whether he made arrangements for him, or not, the curse was going to happen days later, so he was going to get pulled into Storybrooke anyway.

Probably. Unless he was in a kingdom like Camelot or Arendelle.

[oliverwendell]

 

The show will probably drop that story, I'm thinking.

 

Oh, I think not. That is just too big of a Chekhov Gun to let sit there unused. I thought Regina's line was very telling: she told Hook she knew the real reason why he never wanted to speak of the night he killed his father. Then she said he was about to destroy "another family" to get his revenge. I think Hook feels very guilty about what he did to Liam 2, and those lines were breadcrumbs we're meant to pick up later when Liam 2 inevitably shows up.

[Dianthus]

It looks like we will see some interaction between Robin and Henry in the UW. We'll have to wait and see how this might change the dynamic.

I was watching one of those OUaT Crack vids on YouTube the other day, the one for this ep, and something really jumped out at me. Near the end there was the reaction shot of Robin, Henry, and Regina. They each had a caption over their heads. Henry's read: Dad, come back. We still have yet to see any significant/meaningful interaction between Henry and Robin. Relatively speaking, we've gotten gobs of this between Henry and Hook by comparison. While he vacillates between his moms, Henry definitely seems to have fixed on Hook as his substitute father. Hook has the advantage of Robin by having known Bae/Neal, but Hook has also taken him stargazing and sailing, plus they had significant interaction in the AU and Operation Light Swan.

 

ETA:

It looks like we'll be seeing some interaction between Robin and Henry in the UW. We'll have to wait and see how this might change the dynamic.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Dianthus

[babyPhat279]

Fun game: Take a drink every time there's a variation of the "kind of man you want to be" line.

[Mitch]

I think it's more the hypocrisy of it -- it was terribly evil for Emma to have come up with the plan to put the Darkness in Zelena and kill her, even though she was responsible for the current situation from her betraying them to Arthur and tethering Merlin to Excalibur, which led to Hook's mortal paper cut that led to him becoming the Dark One, and Emma still got lectured on this by her mother and Regina even after Zelena was the one who gave Hook his memories back and made him back into the Dark One. But it was perfectly okay for Regina to send her to Oz just to keep her away from the baby, and this was treated like some kind of "now I believe in myself and everyone else believes in me, so I can use the wand!" triumph, even though at the beginning of the season the reason Regina couldn't use the wand was that she wasn't dark enough anymore.

 

While there are superficial similarities to Becoming in the way Hook died, I don't think it goes any closer than "blonde heroine has to kill her formerly evil lover to save the world." Angel had his soul forced back into him at a very bad time -- not soon enough to keep him from starting the world ending scheme, but too soon for it to be Angelus who was killed. When Angel returned, he didn't know what was going on and had no choice in the decision to sacrifice him. Hook, on the other hand, pulled himself out of Darkness and was the one who came up with the way to stop it all by sacrificing himself. He just needed Emma to take the final action. It's very different character and plot arcs between the two shows.

 

As for the difference between Regina in season 2 and Hook now in stopping their own evil and the reaction of the others, with Regina, she wasn't their friend or ally at the time. She had, while in full possession of herself, come up with the plan to kill them all and apparently would have gone through with it without a qualm if Tamara and Greg hadn't hijacked it. She didn't stop it because she realized it was wrong, but because it wasn't going according to her plan and would leave Henry alone, and she never apologized or said that plan was wrong. Up to that point, she'd never really helped the good guys with anything (other than a bit during Team Princess, but they were in that fix because they were saving her from the wraith). Instead, she'd just spent decades torturing them. Hook, on the other hand, has put himself on the line time and again to help them. Henry and David owe him their lives from the Neverland adventure. Emma and Henry wouldn't be in their lives again if Hook hadn't sold his ship so he could reach them, and Emma probably wouldn't be in their lives now if Hook hadn't followed her through the time portal. They might all still be trapped in the AU if Hook hadn't sacrificed himself so that Emma and Henry could carry on with their mission. He had a lot to do with Emma holding out against the Darkness for as long as she did, and he was in his current fix because he got wounded saving Snow's life. So even if he had put their lives in danger while under the Darkness and his current sacrifice was only undoing his own evil, they owe him a lot for all the other stuff he's done.

 

And with Regina in season two, the thing is that they didn't let her make the sacrifice. They were willing to risk everything to find a way to get out of that without her dying, and when it looked like that failed, they still went to stand by her and were apparently going to die with her if Emma hadn't remembered that she also had magic. So, yeah, they do kind of have a reason to go save Hook now, even if his plan as Dark One was to drag them into hell and he died to stop that.

Yea, I'm thinking for certain people anything Regina does is going to be wrong and anything the pretty lil pirate does is okay. Which is fine, to each their own, I like them both as they arent' boringly perfect as Charming and Snow (even as egg snatchers they are boring) and I don't give either of them an off cause I like them...(actually I like Hook better then kind of bad then this romance novel drivel we have been given for two seasons but realize a large segment of the audience loves that stuff so they will do it) however, in this case, I gotta stand up for Regina as both she and dull as can be Robin gave Zelena a chance with the kid and being reformed and she betrayed them ....AGAIN.  The only way for Regina to keep the town safe from Zelena...AND the kid (who she said she was going to raise to be bad to the bone) is to send her to Oz..my only quibble are those poor people in Oz, though maybe they know how to deal with her.

[Dianthus]

"pretty li'l pirate" huh? Nothing bitchy or condescending about that, no sir. I am so fcking tired of this shit. I was already fcking tired of it as a Spike fan back in the day. It's TV, they're all pretty. I enjoy Hook's character for many reasons, the pretty is only part of it.  

[KingOfHearts]

Love how Regina just walked into a tavern, no questions asked. Even after she flung some people there wasn't much arousal. No bowing? No, "It's the Evil Queen!"? Was this a tavern chain location from out of town?

Edited December 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It's on the same street as the one where she met Tinkerbelle in 3A.  It's in a very discreet area of the kingdom.

[InsertWordHere]

Actually, that moment made me think that if Liam 2 was told anything about his father's death (assuming Hook didn't bother going in and talking to him or making some arrangements and he better have or else I will be quite vexed at him), it would be that on the night of his death, the tavern was visited by the Evil Queen mere hours or days before she cast the curse. No one there seemed to know Hook by reputation, despite the fact that he'd been back in the Enchanted Forest for at least a year by that point. So now Liam 2's going to be out for vengeance against poor Regina, not knowing he should really be going after his much older half-brother. Hey, maybe Charming will kill him too!

[kitticup]

It took me awhile to process this episode. This episode is like this whole arc. There was so much potential and the acting was stellar, but the plot holes were just too much for me. So much so that I could never fully buy into the arc or this episode. I probably write more about the overall plot holes in the thread for all seasons and focus on this episode only in this post.

First I liked the baby killian flashback. It was one of my head cannons that killian was forced into servitude. This works because hook seemed so offended when Claude called him a slave way back in season 2. Hook was also quick to tell Zelena he was no one's toy. Hook always believed in individual choice, whether it was Milah's choosing a new life or Emma choosing him or crushing a heart. It might also explain hook's need to lash out when he is hurt or betrayed. Never being able to have choice and express anger to your master has probably built up in him and now that he has control and can express himself he goes overboard. It gives new insight to his betrayal of Bae in Neverland. He gave Bae better deal than he himself got and Bae threw it in his face. I am not saying hook was right to behave as he did. For the record, he was not. Regina's line about destroying a family likely would call to mind the hurt Bae felt upon learning his mother abandoned him. However, his need to punish Emma was way over the top and didn't make sense nor did his inability to fight the darkness until the last minute.

This episode was better than last week's which totally assassinated hook's character. At least hook chose to do the right thing in the end. He didn't chose to be a better man for Emma; he choose to be the man he wanted to be for himself. He knew that the regret would be the only thing he revenge would give him, not satisfaction or peace.

I liked the actor playing papa hook. When papa hook realized that the pirate might be

Killian, his reaction went from disbelief/shock, not wanting to deal with an ugly past to a flicker of disappointment at who Killian had become, followed by a realization that he was big reason for how his son turned out, and finally acceptance of his son and a desire to make things right.

What didn't work was shoehorning the Regina hook flashback into the timeline.

The other thing that did not work was Rumple being able to transfer all the darkness back into himself. Of all the things in the arc, making Rumple a hero, win a duel to get Excalibur, and conveniently have a potion that would be able to enchant one of the most powerful magical relics required too much suspension of belief. I also don't like that rumple is being rewarded for his duplicity. I am tired of the wonky morality of this show. I sincerely hope there are very negative side effects to Rumple for having so much darkness. Emma's light magic better be stronger than anything rumple has.

It would have worked better if hook wanted to be in charge of all the dark ones given his hatred of being under other's control, then have Nimue whispering sweet nothings to rumple to take the mantle from hook because he wanted to be the top dog. Rumple's status as a former dark one would enable him to see Nimue. She could remind him that without his power he would be at the mercy of a town who hates him. Maybe even have smelled vandalize his shop.

JMO did an excellent job acting, but please never use the dark swan voice again.

Also I like Zelena in small doses. Lon live pistachio.

Edited December 13, 2015 by kitticup

[Shanna Marie]

I finally got a chance to rewatch, and it feels like there's at least one really critical scene missing to explain the point of the Hook and Regina flashbacks. I can kind of get why that memory would maybe work to trigger Hook to fight off the darkness, but as it stands now, it makes no sense for Regina to be able to use that memory to trigger it or for her to even know why that memory would work. From what we saw, it was like, "Remember when I ordered you to kill your father and you did it? Ah, good times. Anyway, that's why you shouldn't let the Dark Ones kill us all now." For her to even know that this was something that might affect him, she had to know exactly what happened and why. If all she knew was that he carried out her order, it's meaningless. So she had to either be watching it via mirror or lurking, but even then, how would she know the full meaning and impact of the "what kind of man do you want to be" stuff if she didn't know all of Hook's childhood history? The only way it really makes sense is that if somehow the whole thing was a magical setup, using a spell to draw memories out of his head and create a scenario to test him, and she was therefore privy to the full history.

 

Plus, as often as the "we agreed never to speak of this" thing came up, we kind of needed to see that agreement being struck, whether it was in the immediate aftermath or when they ran into each other again in Storybrooke.

 

It seems like they timed the script really badly so that the episode came out too long -- with apparently another scene between Regina and Hook that was cut, along with the wrap-up to all the Camelot stuff and Merida. I don't see anything in the episode that would have come out in production as much, much longer than it would have looked on the page, so it's like they somehow managed to write an episode that was about half an hour too long.

[Writing Wrongs]

What cracks me up is how everyone uses Belle as leverage against Rumple. They are completely ok with keeping her in the dark if it suits their needs. She's sleeping with The Dark One again? Not our problem. No one gives a shit about Belle. Maybe they think she deserves it for being so stupid. LOL

Edited December 14, 2015 by Writing Wrongs

[KingOfHearts]

 

What cracks me up is how everyone uses Belle as leverage against Rumple. They are completely ok with keeping her in the dark if it suits their needs. She's sleeping with The Dark One again? Not our problem. No one gives a shit about Belle. Maybe they think she deserves it for being so stupid. LOL

Maybe it's because she's not a person?

[Shanna Marie]

What cracks me up is how everyone uses Belle as leverage against Rumple. They are completely ok with keeping her in the dark if it suits their needs. She's sleeping with The Dark One again? Not our problem. No one gives a shit about Belle. Maybe they think she deserves it for being so stupid. LOL

Or maybe they just realize that it wouldn't make that big a difference with her if they told her. She's been sleeping with the Dark One all along, knowing he was the Dark One. Would it make any difference now? She's that friend in the really toxic on-again, off-again relationship with a guy everyone knows is bad news, and you've learned not to bother saying anything to her about your concerns because she'll likely just get defensive and say you don't understand if you tell her about anything bad he's done. Even if she breaks up with him for the time being, you don't dare say anything bad about him or agree with her when she vents because you know she'll get back with him eventually and hold what you said against you.

[KAOS Agent]

Belle came back and slept with Rumpel before Emma learned that he was the Dark One again. Then she blackmailed him into taking her to hell. Since he's going with them, Belle will not be sleeping with Rumpel until they return home at which point who knows what they'll tell her. Maybe she'll get a clue in the meantime. Or Hook will tell her just how much her pure hearted, heroic Rumpel screwed him over. I don't know how Rumpel expects to keep his Dark One-ness hidden for long anyway.

[Rumsy4]

Belle barely gave 5 minutes to check whether the "hero" thing took or not. Finding he was the DO again may not have made much of a difference in the long run. The choice was either tell Belle and lose the chance of getting Gold to open the portal, or let Belle continue to be deceived for now. It's not a life or death situation for Belle.

[AudienceofOne]

Belle barely gave 5 minutes to check whether the "hero" thing took or not. Finding he was the DO again may not have made much of a difference in the long run. The choice was either tell Belle and lose the chance of getting Gold to open the portal, or let Belle continue to be deceived for now. It's not a life or death situation for Belle.

 

The one Belle/Rump scene I didn't fast forward was the one where she dumped him at the well. I thought, finally Belle realises she needs space and distance to find herself. Abusive relationships will do that to you. And then not even a few hours later she falls straight back into it again. And it's nothing more than a cheap reset button (Beauty/Beast) to take us into the next season.

 

I don't know about this season. Overall, I think it is actually better than last season by a long way. But a lot of it doesn't hang together in retrospect and while I appreciate their reasoning behind Hook's "redemption", I felt they shat all over his progress as a human being to do so. A minute of him struggling with the darkness would have been enough. Going dark in 10 seconds when he literally begged to not be the Dark One made little sense to me.

[KingOfHearts]

The situation with Hook's dad was unoriginal, in my opinion. I've seen several users on this forum concoct much more intriguing scenarios. Brennan is not interesting, just kind of your run-of-the-mill deadbeat. The flashbacks didn't elaborate much on what had already been vaguely said - Hook was abandoned as a child. The fact Hook murdered him later doesn't add much, surprisingly. I always thought, before this episode, we were only being told half the story. For instance, maybe Hook and Liam were not biological brothers, or the abandonment was a misunderstanding, or Hook's dad was actually an important figure like a king. The outcome of the flashbacks were too predictable and didn't leave a good taste in my mouth.

 

Shoehorning in Regina and naming another son Liam? Really? That's the best A&E could come up with? I guess they really didn't seem to care since the only purpose was to introduce the "what kind of man do you want to be" line to get Hook to sacrifice himself.

Edited December 17, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

only purpose was to introduce the "what kind of man do you want to be" line to get Hook to sacrifice himself.

 

That line was so clunky.  The speech totally meandered and was irrelevant for the situation of calming a child down from fear.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

That line was so clunky.  The speech totally meandered and was irrelevant for the situation of calming a child down from fear.

Knowing that was what his father said as he abandoned him and his younger half-brother, why would this line lead to redemption? Wouldn't it just make him angrier?

[Rumsy4]

Hook's dad was rather generic and lackluster. This whole Dark Hook arc has mainly served to set Hook several paces back in his redemption journey. The last minute turnaround is such a clumsy device, and A&E overuse it. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[scenicbyway]

Well, I'm back and finally watched Broken Heart and Swan Song.  I think it really helped to watch the episodes back to back so I didn't have frustration over Hook's character being so heavily retconned for a week.

I think it's fine that Hook became "Dark Hook", with the foreshadowing of "sharing the burden" and Killian being the only one who was really on Emma's side through the whole thing.  That said, I find it hard to believe that the dark side would bring back Hook's quest for revenge against Rumple to the extreme that he was willing to  "kill/send the Underworld" every member of Emma's family in order to get it.  I liked the resolution of Hook sacrificing himself and Emma's determination to get him back.  I don't even mind that Rumple tricked everyone, again.  But the idea that Hook would go so dark as to kill everyone who Emma cares about, I mean, even Regina and Rumple haven't done anything that extreme.  I just don't think Hook would go that far.  And from the interviews, we're supposed to believe that he was just being a pissed off boyfriend, ok, so maybe you put Regina in danger or the dwarves if that were the case.  You don't put Snow, Charming and Henry in that situation.

 

On another note, the Zelena drama in Swan Song felt completely out of place but I suppose they needed her back in Oz so that Rebecca can have a storyline in 5b without needing to be in the Underworld. 

 

Hook's dad was ok, that bit did give us a little insight into why Killian is big on personal choice after being made an indentured servant as a child.  I do wonder how much choice he gave his victims as Captain Hook.

 

I get that they are literally wanting Emma to walk through hell to get her true love back, but turning Hook so dark after we've seen him spend 3 seasons trying to be the better man felt like something that should've happened in season 2 not 5.  If he can so easily backslide, how can he be trusted?  Oh, wait, he was "cursed" so it's ok, nevermind.

[AudienceofOne]

I get that they are literally wanting Emma to walk through hell to get her true love back, but turning Hook so dark after we've seen him spend 3 seasons trying to be the better man felt like something that should've happened in season 2 not 5.  If he can so easily backslide, how can he be trusted?  Oh, wait, he was "cursed" so it's ok, nevermind.

 

 

This is my problem with it. When Rumpel was cursed, he was still Rumpel. When Emma was cursed, she was still Emma. But Hook is cursed and becomes instantly the most violent and destructive Dark One who has ever lived? That's not a tale of redemption. That's a tale of an inherent darkness so profound a nudge sends him spiralling toward mass murder. Even in his worst moments, Hook wanted to kill Rumpel but not hurt anybody else if he didn't have to. He was never petty or nasty and he never inflicted pain - emotional or physical - for the enjoyment of it. Rumpel was the one who revelled in other people's pain because it was proof of his superior power. Hook never did. But now I'm supposed to believe he wants to murder all Emma's family and friends because he was mad at her?

 

But decided not to do so at the last minute is his "redemption"? I don't. I just don't buy it.

[YaddaYadda]

At this point, this whole thing with Dark Hook seems to have been designed to draw parallels or anti-parallels (?) between Rumple and Hook. That's what it feels like to me. Hook as the Dark One was pretty nasty, he pretty much let the darkness consume him which is something Rumple seems to have fought because of Bae. When push came to shove, and Emma was in trouble, he dug deep, and pushed the darkness back to do what he did, decided to be the man he worked hard to become.

 

Rumple with a blank slate, a hero title decided that this wasn't enough for him, and that he wanted all of that back.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but they've pinned Hook and Rumple against each other for far too long for this not to be what they've wanted all along.

Edited December 17, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

This is my problem with it. When Rumpel was cursed, he was still Rumpel. When Emma was cursed, she was still Emma. But Hook is cursed and becomes instantly the most violent and destructive Dark One who has ever lived? That's not a tale of redemption. That's a tale of an inherent darkness so profound a nudge sends him spiralling toward mass murder.

My read on it was that it wasn't so much Hook's own darkness that was at issue there as it was Hook's self-fulfilling prophecy that he couldn't handle or fight the darkness. He just gave in, right away, and that meant that the Darkness (and it seems largely Nimue) was in the driver's seat with no human fighting it off. Dark Hook was basically like what Rumple would have become when his blackened heart gave out and it was just the Darkness powering his immortal body with Rumple himself being dead. The Darkness was using Hook's anger to control and manipulate him. But there was enough of him left that he was able to fight back and control it, which suggests that maybe he could have done it all along if he'd even tried, but he had no faith in himself.

 

So then we get the Rumple parallel mentioned above -- Even as the Dark One being utterly controlled by the Darkness, Hook was able to fight through and sacrifice himself, fighting off the Darkness enough to pull it out of both Emma and himself. Even as a purest hearted hero who could draw Excalibur, Rumple chose darkness and power rather than allowing the Dark One to be permanently removed from the world.

[Curio]

But the idea that Hook would go so dark as to kill everyone who Emma cares about, I mean, even Regina and Rumple haven't done anything that extreme.

 

Except for that time when Regina was going to let Storybrooke be destroyed so she could have Henry for herself, which would have killed Emma and her entire family... Or that time when Rumple was going to escape from Storybrooke and allow the Snow Queen's Shattered Sight curse to destroy Emma and her entire family... 

 

When Rumpel was cursed, he was still Rumpel. When Emma was cursed, she was still Emma. But Hook is cursed and becomes instantly the most violent and destructive Dark One who has ever lived?

 

I think that's part of the reason why we got the backstory on Nimue. As a normal human, she seemed like a generally decent person to begin with, but she also had a darker side because she was willing to follow through with her vengeance and destroy Vortigan. (Similar to Killian's backstory in a way.) But the Dark Curse seemed to have completely changed her from a woman that Merlin loved deeply and transformed her into something inhuman. And I'd say Sparkly Dark One Rumple was a huge change from cowardly Rumple who was still married to Milah. Sparkly Rumple was just as nasty as Dark Hook, but he's just much better at hiding his villainy when he's Mr. Gold. Emma is the only outlier; she's partially immune to the Dark Curse because she's the Savior and had darkness taken out of her, so that's why her Dark One personality wasn't a huge shift.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Even Emma was going to crush Merida's heart soon after becoming the DO, when her family intervened to stop her. Emma had a lot of people supporting her. The one person who could have helped Hook the same way was also the person who turned him into a DO against his wishes.

[Shanna Marie]

The one person who could have helped Hook the same way was also the person who turned him into a DO against his wishes.

And was also already a Dark One herself and probably not equipped to pull someone else out of Darkness. I used this analogy in the Hook thread, but if you've got a recovering alcoholic in a bar with a drink in front of him, the worst possible person to keep him from relapsing is the person who is already drinking and a little buzzed and who dragged him into the bar against his wishes and put the drink in front of him. That person isn't going to be very effective in telling him he can stay sober if he just tries really hard and believes in himself. He would have needed the support of all the others, and even there, I don't think he has the kind of relationship with them in which that support would have meant something, since they haven't always demonstrated a lot of faith in him when he didn't have darkness in him. He'd already heard them agreeing that it was best to just let him die, and although he agreed with them when he wasn't the Dark One, that doesn't demonstrate a lot of faith in him, so he might not have considered them to be sincere, which might have made matters worse.

 

Of the Dark Ones we've seen, Rumple had an agenda that superseded Nimue's agenda. Emma had inherent lack of Darkness, a lot of support, and a strong agenda toward a future without the Darkness. Hook had it shoved upon him while he strongly believed he couldn't fight it, and Nimue got her claws into him before he got his bearings, homing in on his biggest weakness and pouncing. Both Rumple and Emma were conscious and took it on deliberately. Hook was unconscious and dying when it happened to him, so he may have started from a place of vulnerability.

[Dianthus]

I think a lot of it had to do with his vulnerability at that point. He was literally too weak to fight the Darkness, mentally, spiritually, and physically.