S02.E07: A Most Powerful Adversary

[shapeshifter]

I think her note said she had taken Mary as well.  I also agree that I have no idea how Nora managed to get a baby and comatose adult out of that house without waking anyone up.

Put the baby in a front-carrier strapped to Mary in a wheel chair?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Leftovers Presents Miracle, Texas: America's Staycationland!
While Nora takes a hike, Kevin sticks around to visit all Miracle, Texas, has to offer. Wish you were there? Let us be your guide!

[nachomama]

I think Laurie is the worst therapist ever on the planet. Pre 14th she might have been right, delusions, etc. I think Tommy ran away because his hugs were healing people. She believes they made it up as a lie but it was real. And Kevin really does see Patti. If 2% of the population "departed" and there's no explanation whatsoever why is anyone hesitant to believe that there are people manifesting themselves to Kevin's dad or Kevin? I would believe in the one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people eater at this point. 

 

I have no clue what's going on, I don't think kevin's dead, if the universe saved him and drained the quarry then something will save him here. Him, Jon Snow and Glenn are the chosen ones and they can't die. 

[DarkRaichu]

When did Jill start swearing like a sailor?

I thought she did in season 1?  Or was it her BFF?  Btw what happened to her jailbait best friend?

 

 

Because Michael makes her sexually frustrated? (and yeah a teen male turning down sex, what BS)

Why should sex be the be-all-and-end-all ?  Shouldn't it be refreshing to see a teen male not potrayed as some kind of sex starved animal?

[txhorns79]

And Kevin really does see Patti. If 2% of the population "departed" and there's no explanation whatsoever why is anyone hesitant to believe that there are people manifesting themselves to Kevin's dad or Kevin? I would believe in the one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people eater at this point.

 

I don't know.  I honestly think Laurie was spot on when she noted that Patti chose not to appear to Kevin when Laurie was around because Laurie had the ability to definitively prove that the Patti appearing to Kevin wasn't real.  A later episode could prove me wrong, but, to me, it seems more logical (even on an Earth where you have the Departure) that it's mental illness rather than the ghosts of the dead appearing to Kevin.     

[nachomama]

I had gotten to where I believed Kevin's dad and that the voices jumped to Kevin once daddy found a walkabout cure. And maybe Kevin is the anti-thesis of Nora. If she's a "lens" and makes people around her go poof, then he's the opposite.

[Clanstarling]

Yeah, I think it says something that Laurie is the most well adjusted of all these people at the moment.  I did appreciate her scene with Kevin, cutting through Patti's BS in a minute and telling Kevin the truth about what was happening to him.  

I think it's mostly that Laurie went through her dark night of her soul and came out (mostly) on the other side. Her time in the cult, but particularly the explosive end of her affiliation and being confronted with her daughter nearly dying helped her put a lot of things in perspective. She's still going through stuff, but I think she's facing it head on these days.

 

When did Jill start swearing like a sailor?

Lindelhof must like to show angry white females.

I think she did in season 1, but I don't know for sure. Most of it in this episode, seemed to me, to be specifically used as a weapon. It didn't seem like she used it casually, the way most teens do. (based on my experience with both my teen years and my children's teen years, there may be a lot of angelic teens out there, but I've never encountered them.)

 

As for the AWF, it seems to me most of the men are angry all the time (though Kevin is more confused than angry). Matt spent most of last season angry, and though he seems less angry, I think it's still pretty close to the surface. As for John and Evie's son, he seems placid, but there's something about him that seems to promise something a bit more explosive. This is not a world that generates a lot of peaceful, calm people.

 

What surprised me most about Nora is not that she took off - she's had burden after burden dumped on her ever since arriving in Miracle. What surprised me most is that she took Mary with her. Was it because she felt she needed to help Mary - or was some subconscious anger directed at her brother - because he was adamant that Mary needed to be within the Miracle city limits for their baby to survive. It didn't bother me at all that she left Jill - Jill wasn't her daughter, and though they seemed okay with each other, it never seemed to me that they were particularly close. Plus, Jill may still be a dependent, but she is not young by most other measures. Relationships work best when only one person at a time is losing their mind. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by clanstarling

[toomuchtv47]

I think for me, the reason why I have a problem with Nora leaving without Jill is the fact that if Nora really did leave because Kevin can see Patti, you don't leave a a young girl with someone that has a family history of mental illness.  I only say that within the scopes of the television show.  Real life is another story.  Kevin might not be dangerous at that moment, but Jill still needs someone looking out for her.

 

And speaking of Jill, I remember last season she had a crush that liked her best friend.  She seemed OK with it but it hurt.  Then at the party, Jill pretends to choke that guy while her jerked off.  We haven't seen her with any positive, loving sexual relationships.  I know there was something, maybe, with one of the twins at the end but I'm hazy.  So she starts dating a new guy and he hasn't pulled the moves she's used to.  What could be wrong with him?  Or her?  Why doesn't he want to sleep with her?  Michael is different from the boys she interacted with back home and I don't think she knows what to make of it.

 

I do hope Kevin has something happen to intervene.  Maybe the poison wasn't deadly, or Michael gets him to the hospital or anything.  I don't want him gone.  I am so invested in his story.  

 

The book, I thought, was great.  First season was good too and when I heard there was going to be a second, I didn't know where they could take it and even after seeing the previews and reading bits and pieces, I wasn't convinced but now, this second season has been some great television.  It's different and other than the Matt episode, I've been captivated the moment it starts each week.  When I think about it after and go over it in my mind I'll probably find problems with plot or won't be satisfied by something, but right now, I'm loving every second of it.

[WearyTraveler]

Lindelhof must like to show angry white females.

 

I don't think this is a fair assessment.  A lot of people on this show are angry, male and female (see Kevin's reactions to the GR last season, John, this season, Matt for part of his ordeal... It would take too long to name them all).  Anger is one of the stages of grief, and the departure has definitely caused a lot of grief.  It's only natural that some of the characters are still angry.

[izabella]

What surprised me most is that she took Mary with her. Was it because she felt she needed to help Mary - or was some subconscious anger directed at her brother - because he was adamant that Mary needed to be within the Miracle city limits for their baby to survive.

 

Could Nora still be somewhere in Miracle?  I don't know if that's possible, but I'm having a hard time believing she left after spending millions on that house.

[represent]

 

Could Nora still be somewhere in Miracle?  I don't know if that's possible, but I'm having a hard time believing she left after spending millions on that house.

Not me. 

 

Because if you go with the notion that she bought that house just to feel safe and no longer feels safe, then what she spent on it doesn't matter. She is terrified, and every move she's made has been out of that fear alone.  She doesn't care about the money she spent, nor the money that she's lost in that house. The purchase  wasn't an investment on a house in terms of we'll fix it up and we'll get  a return on our investment. It was all about this false sense of safety that she was so desperately seeking based on what Matt told her about Miracle. 

 

That's what Jill had to tell crazy Kevin, because he didn't understand that Nora's fear was the reason for spending millions on that house, like she can't bring herself to understand his brand of crazy. These people are just paralyzed. Jill told him that she spent all that money on that crappy house because she needs to be there in Miracle to feel safe and she's right. Except now that safety is in question so...  And I'll say it again, unlike Kevin, Nora lost her entire family and the thought of that happening again has to feel a lot different for her than people like Kevin who did not lose family members in the Departure. His family is all fucked up but they are still very much alive therefore, there's hope, a hope that Nora doesn't have.

 

I guess I see Nora as also losing her mind, so the things that she's doing get the same empathy from me as Kevin gets. They both need help and are too fucked up to give it to each other at this point.

Edited November 18, 2015 by represent

[shapeshifter]

And maybe Kevin is the anti-thesis of Nora. If she's a "lens" and makes people around her go poof, then he's the opposite.

I like the symetry of this--some order in a show about chaos. And it fits without being obvious.

What surprised me most about Nora is not that she took off - she's had burden after burden dumped on her ever since arriving in Miracle. What surprised me most is that she took Mary with her. Was it because she felt she needed to help Mary - or was some subconscious anger directed at her brother - because he was adamant that Mary needed to be within the Miracle city limits for their baby to survive.

I hadn't thought about that, but it fits with my understanding of Nora--probably better than what I was thinking:

I thought maybe Nora took Mary and Lilly because they were both given to her and because they represent replacements for her children that were taken away. I've heard parents of children with cognitive delays who had lost other children say that having a disabled child meant that they would always have a child. I'm not sure how I feel about that point of view, but it keeps coming to my mind when I think of Nora with Mary.

Also, taking Mary and Lilly and leaving Jill unsaddles Jill from the burden of being a caretaker at such a young age. I also considered that even though Michael's parents aren't on Nora's list of best friends, Nora probably appreciates Michael and doesn't want to interrupt what is blossoming between him and Jill.

Something else to consider: Nora didn't just leave Kevin and Jill; she left the neighbors and the town.

Could Nora still be somewhere in Miracle? I don't know if that's possible, but I'm having a hard time believing she left after spending millions on that house.

You and I would have a hard time leaving behind a multi-million dollar investment, but Nora was easy-come-easy-go with the money from her first house, so why would this be any different?

If anyone's keeping score, I am not on Team Laurie.

Edited November 18, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Cardie]

There's no reason Nora couldn't have taken Mary back to Matt and Mary's house. There would be supplies there needed to maintain her. It never even occurred to me that she would have left town.

 

Although one thing I like about this show is that you absolutely never can predict what's going to happen next, I don't see any way that they've killed off Kevin. There will probably be some suitably ambiguous explanation for his survival: either the poison was not sufficiently lethal or the unseen force brought him back just like it did that sparrow.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Could Nora still be somewhere in Miracle? I don't know if that's possible, but I'm having a hard time believing she left after spending millions on that house.

There's no reason Nora couldn't have taken Mary back to Matt and Mary's house. There would be supplies there needed to maintain her. It never even occurred to me that she would have left town.

Although one thing I like about this show is that you absolutely never can predict what's going to happen next, I don't see any way that they've killed off Kevin. There will probably be some suitably ambiguous explanation for his survival: either the poison was not sufficiently lethal or the unseen force brought him back just like it did that sparrow.

When Nora called, I assumed she was hiding out in/staying in the place where Matt & Mary had been living in Miracle.

As for leaving Jill, isn't she 16? 16 is too young to be left to fend for yourself and/or care for your delusional, paranoid, suicidal father. And how would Jill eat, pay the electric bill, etc? She doesn't have a job and eventually whatever money the family had would run out (and I assume access to Nora's money would be cut off). Unless Jill quit high school and worked full time in some minimum wage job (or two), eventually I'm not sure how she would cover the basics, let alone also care for Kevin as his mental state deteriorates. And no one knew Jill's mother was headed to Miracle. So yes, I think it was crappy that Nora left Jill. I also think that it was crappy for her to leave Kevin (although somewhat understandable). She had to know Kevin was mentally ill once he made his confession about Patti. Would she have left him if he had cancer? MS? Some other disease? I'm not sure but I think she'd have been more likely to stay around & help with his treatment/care. Yet since it's mental illness, he's "crazy" so she runs.

Look, I think Nora gets dumped on a lot (especially this season). But I think she's shown time and time again she's strong and pragmatic and will do what needs to be done, which IMO would be doing something to try to get Kevin, the father of her daughter Lily & her partner, into treatment and to help Jill at least get in some sort of stable situation to live out the next couple of years of her life as a teen (at least until she finishes high school). Kevin and Nora adopted Liky together and you would think if nothing else, Nora would want to try to get her daughter's father help do that he could be a good father and be around in Lily's life.

Edited November 18, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[freebie]

 

I did appreciate her scene with Kevin, cutting through Patti's BS in a minute and telling Kevin the truth about what was happening to him.

I actually thought Laurie was doing the same thing she's been doing ever since she came to her senses and walked away from the GR: clinging to the familiarity of her profession and, in so doing, failing to recognize that talk therapy ain't gonna cut it these days. As noted up thread, Laurie's "diagnosis" was more appropriate in the pre-Fourteenth world, but now? No, I don't think Laurie is right at all about what's happening to Kevin. I can't say I understand what's happening to him myself, but I have a hard time believing that Patti is no more than a crazy man's hallucination.

 

Similarly, I'll be very surprised if her assessment of what went on with Tommy will prove to be true. Did he tell her he'd been sexually assaulted? Does she know everything about what went down with Holy Wayne? If not, then her assumption that Tommy took off because he felt bad about scamming people is flawed. Maybe she's projecting her own feelings onto Tommy because she's the one who feels bad about lying?

 

Anyway, last week I said that I uttered some form of WTF? every 10 minutes or so while watching this show. This week, it was more like every 5 minutes, with a W..... T..... F.....? serving as my sole commentary during that very last scene. And my list of questions is longer than it was last week. Again.

[txhorns79]

As noted up thread, Laurie's "diagnosis" was more appropriate in the pre-Fourteenth world, but now? No, I don't think Laurie is right at all about what's happening to Kevin. I can't say I understand what's happening to him myself, but I have a hard time believing that Patti is no more than a crazy man's hallucination.

 

I guess my question would be why?  I would agree that the Departure was a supernatural phenomenon, but I don't think because that happened, that a supernatural explanation suddenly becomes the most logical explanation in a given situation.  I mean, I think even with the Departure, if someone was telling me that a dead person was telling them to self-harm, my thought wouldn't be "because people departed, the dead (or ghosts) now can talk to the living," it would be that the person is having a breakdown and they need help.  

Edited November 18, 2015 by txhorns79

[Milburn Stone]

And Kevin really does see Patti. If 2% of the population "departed" and there's no explanation whatsoever why is anyone hesitant to believe that there are people manifesting themselves to Kevin's dad or Kevin?

 

That's where I am at this point--believing Patti is not just an apparition, but is actually there. I won't be surprised if the next episode finds Kevin in actual purgatory, accompanied by Patti and Virgil battling for his soul. And that this won't be merely a psychotic delusion.

[Juliegirlj]

Virgil and Michael would not kill Kevin if they suspected his involvement with the missing girls-maybe torture him for info. Virgil seems sorry for his misdeeds so it seems unlikely he would risk Kevin's life without due cause, and he comforts Kevin while the poison takes effect. Virgil told Kevin that Tower Guy is a success story- is that why Michael feeds him- because whatever happened left him crazy?

[Rockfish]

Even though I did enjoy the Laurie-centric episode, I groan each time I hear her or see that she's going to be in a scene. I'm biased against her because of the damage she caused her family and because she seems to always favor Tommy over Jill. (My bias against her is somewhat irrational because I give other characters passes for shitty behavior.) Not happy that she'll be staying at Nora's, but the way this season is going, her staying there will probably turn out to be an interesting plot point.

I, too, thought it seemed out of character for Nora to leave Jill behind--not to mention, the almost impossibility of her lifting a vegetative wheelchair-bound adult into and out of a vehicle by herself, but I'm being nitpicky.

I do hope the Garvey dog that was quarantined is okay.

[shapeshifter]

I do hope the Garvey dog that was quarantined is okay.

Well, if he's chasing rabbits, are they dream rabbits or real? Heh. All bets are off with regards to Patti, Virgil, and rabbits in this show.

[DarkRaichu]

There's no reason Nora couldn't have taken Mary back to Matt and Mary's house. There would be supplies there needed to maintain her. It never even occurred to me that she would have left town.

 

Although one thing I like about this show is that you absolutely never can predict what's going to happen next, I don't see any way that they've killed off Kevin. There will probably be some suitably ambiguous explanation for his survival: either the poison was not sufficiently lethal or the unseen force brought him back just like it did that sparrow.

Are you saying Michael was going to bury Kevin for 3 days just like those birds to see if he would wake up healed?  Virgil did have quite collection of birds on his yard.

[Cardie]

Michael doing that is a possibility several in the thread have suggested. Perhaps he would be buried with the wish that the girls are found.

[Juliegirlj]

I loved the scenes with Laurie and Kevin, and how vulnerable he allowed himself to be with her. I thought her guidance to Kevin was sound. Season one Laurie was hard to like, she abandoned her family and joined a cult, but there is something about her now that is more empathetic. Glad someone else mentioned the fight between Laurie and Tommy- when Laurie was explaining to Kevin what had happened, she said " we got into a big argument and Tommy said he......." I believe the end of that sentence she didn't finish was that Tommy either believes he can take away pain, or actually can take people's pain. Laurie is in rational mode now, and isn't buying anything mystical or magical. I thought it was strange when Tommy wouldn't hug Jill in the diner, supposedly because he had a cold. From the previews it looks like Tommy and Meg are in some kind of journey together. The writers may take some heat for this, if Tommy now follows Meg around like a puppy after she basically raped him. ( any old General Hospital fans around from the old days? Yesterday was their "anniversary ". Remember, Luke raped Laura, and then she fell in love with him) { sorry-OT}.