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Spoiler Discussion Thread


Morrigan2575
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I sorta promised myself I would not weigh in on the grave speculation again... esp about LL. But it feels time to weigh in again.

 

I love to think out of the box and I'm skeptical of these writers keeping their promise to make this death significant. But the fact that MG & WM visited the set made me think that the chances of it being someone rather inconsequential like Alex or somebody important but not really on the show like Roy or Nyssa less likely. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying it is not likely. But it still could happen and I would not be surprised.

 

I'm inclined with the set visit to believe that it is a regular cast member. And I think it's always been a Lance on the chopping block. Let's face it both of the characters are expendable &/or replaceable for their own reasons. I want to believe that it will be LL because historically her character has been dead weight on the show for years. That being said it is the CW, so firing the younger female star seems less likely than the older male star with limited screen time. That being said, the writers like to go big. And killing off LL/BC the writers would be going big!!

 

But it's ballsy, and I'm just not sure how ballsy the writers are anymore. They seem to be playing it safe most of the time these days with their predictable stories. What's worse is their self-perceived amazingness in their story telling abilities is blinding them to the reality that with a few exceptions most people could predict or write the plot of this show. Which is why I also think it could be QL, because in their minds it would be ballsy to kill off their police connection. When in reality killing off QL is the equivalent excitement of sliced white bread. It serves a purpose, I just don't think it's ballsy.

 

And I feel like the reason the writers were unsure about who would be in the grave is because they are warring over the same conundrum we are on this board. Killing off either of the Lances makes sense. But one choice leads you down a different path. Killing off LL admits that they are finally willing to let go of one of the characters that inspired their story. It's admitting that their original vision is finally dead. Killing off QL admits nothing except that they are still trying to be one of those shows where anyone can die. But if they kill off QL which everyone can see a mile away, it means that they are not the risk-taking epic game-changing amazeballs writers they think they are. It's a conundrum.

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WHAT relationship with a potential film on black canary? although there's a future there flash movie, but the flash continuous series, I know they killed amanda walker, and another, but laurel lance does not apply to because she is in the universe arrow, it is very simple; and writers are liars, they always know who is in the grave, I remember WM said in an interview, when will the indices of identity between episode 10 and 15

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I was thinking about the argument that she can't be killed because she's Black Canary. That there are more stories to tell and ways for her to evolve. When the show was conceived, they had destiny in mind. Oliver was going to become Green Arrow, Laurel was going to become Black Canary and that was the end point. They gradually moved Oliver away from that story. They stopped using destiny and fate and instead told it as an evolution. That allowed for his story to expand. The same approach was adapted to Thea and Roy and an argument could be made that they are applying it to Diggle and Felicity.

 

They didn't adjust for Laurel. She still got the destiny anvil. They landed so hard her story is filled with plot holes. But they got her there. WM said it herself at the beginning of the season, there is no learning curve and she is the full formed Black Canary. She has reached her endpoint and they still haven't adjusted the storyline. And from what I gather from interviews and the show, they aren't planning too. So their options are to continue like it is now and let her decorate the background and get the occasional comic shot or write her out.

Edited by Chaser
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I don't think comics would stop them from killing a character and I don't think DC cares about what they do with the character once they've let them use it on the show unless when they have to take them away because of the movies like with Deadshot and Waller.I really think DC wouldn't have had a problem at all if Laurel never became BC and they gave the name to Sara.Just like they had no problem with the show moving away from the GA/BC relationship from the comics.If they can kill off Ras and give the name to a character like Malcolm,they can kill BC too.Imo Laurel is still on the show and became BC because of KC's contract,connections and longterm relationship with the network and promises that were made when she pretty much picked out Arrow out of a bunch of shows.

I get the impression that whatever stopped them from killing her before,isn't stoping them now.It seems to me like she's being set up to die and what they're doing with Laurel this year seems like the same thing that happened with Roy in season 3.They're giving her closure in all her relationships and not starting any new ones,tying up loose ends,wraping up her storylines and not giving her new ones(except one near the time the death happens which also happened with Roy finally getting something to do a few episodes before he left).

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DC has no problem with that laurel became Blackc canary, they are not going to kill her for that. because she is fundamental in the universe Arrow. and what relationship with Roy? this is because it has no history yet, they'll kill her. After the series is based on Oliver, he alone is to be 100% on being alive

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Such a shame they never expanded Roy's story (there were a few hints in season 1 and that was it).

I'd almost wish it were Donna and not Lance in the grave just to spare my eyes Laurel grieving.

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I want to like your post but just can't for the bolded part.

 

Such a shame they never expanded Roy's story (there were a few hints in season 1 and that was it).
I'd almost wish it were Donna and not Lance in the grave just to spare my eyes Laurel grieving.

 

There is no reason to wish for that.

 

But yes to Roy's story. I always wondered how much about the dead dad and the junkie mom was true. Sure, he played it off as if he was fooling Lance, but it felt at least partially grounded in truth.

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I have to wonder too, how much impact the critical response to Laurel's arc earlier this season might have had, if perhaps they'd had a short list and were waiting to see how things played out during the first part of the season to finalize their choice. Not that they would kill her off because of one poorly received arc, but it hasn't been just one poorly received arc.

I don't know. I still don't really believe it's going to be her, although I don't see where they go with her from here, but I have to admit I'm starting to hope a lot more than I allowed myself to at the beginning of the season. That's probably going to end badly. :)

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I want to like your post but just can't for the bolded part.

 

 

There is no reason to wish for that.

 

But yes to Roy's story. I always wondered how much about the dead dad and the junkie mom was true. Sure, he played it off as if he was fooling Lance, but it felt at least partially grounded in truth.

Haha, I know. I did say almost, though. :) 

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But yes to Roy's story. I always wondered how much about the dead dad and the junkie mom was true. Sure, he played it off as if he was fooling Lance, but it felt at least partially grounded in truth.

Well his father could have abandoned him and now is a coming back as a super calculating computer wizard. And the abandonment lead his mother to drugs.

 

On a less joking note, I do wonder about Roy's family history. It's a shame we'll never know. I do think his story had a layer of truth to it. I just don't think it was the whole truth.

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Speculating that it's Laurel in the grave is basically my favorite thing about the show right now (I'm like 60/40 Laurel vs. Quentin).

 

I don't think it's Donna not only because of the MG/WM flying to Vancouver (I don't think it's Roy or any of the minor characters for the same reason), but also because of the dialogue between Oliver and Felicity in the limo. If Felicity's mom had just died, I don't think she'd respond to Oliver saying "Are you okay" with "Are you?" That's a super-bizarre response if your (ex?) fiancé asks how you feel after your mother's death. It feels to me like a response Felicity would give if the dead person meant more to Oliver than to her (I think both Laurel and Quentin would fit for this).

 

As for Laurel, she's getting to be a lawyer again according to spoilers, which I think is another sign it's going to be her. If I've learned anything from my many, many years of television watching it's that useless, unlikeable characters, just before they die, suddenly become relevant. There have been a ton of shows where characters who've been useless for years  suddenly become interesting and/or relevant and then they're immediately killed off. 

 

Lots of people have mentioned how little Laurel adds to the plot--she's just another mask, she has little relevance to Oliver's journey, etc.--so killing her off would mean very little. But if suddenly she's this person who can prosecute criminals (a role no one else can fulfill on the team), then her death matters in a way that it wouldn't have before. Plus, she's apparently the "backbone" of the team, and the moral compass or something, so them talking her up like this also reads to me like an attempt to make her more relevant and important so that her death has more of an impact. 

 

Of course, they could take the easy way out and kill Quentin, but I think there are a lot of signs pointing to Laurel.

 

(edited because I have no idea how I got "ME" from Wendy Mericle)

Edited by Cerulean Blue
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I have to wonder too, how much impact the critical response to Laurel's arc earlier this season might have had, if perhaps they'd had a short list and were waiting to see how things played out during the first part of the season to finalize their choice. Not that they would kill her off because of one poorly received arc, but it hasn't been just one poorly received arc.

I don't know. I still don't really believe it's going to be her, although I don't see where they go with her from here, but I have to admit I'm starting to hope a lot more than I allowed myself to at the beginning of the season. That's probably going to end badly. :)

I've wondered less about the critical response and more about the ratings. Not in terms of one episode, but how the ratings have been good overall this year. They have remained steady and even gone up a tenth in the demo from last year. I wonder if that would make them comfortable in going big with the grave or if they would want to play it safe and not tempt the ratings boat.

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Yay! Someone else on the "QL dies and LL goes away forever" train. I hope it happens.  

I'd buy a ticket for that train, except I like the 1hr or so every season we see QL. And there is no way they are gonna get rid of all of the Lances in one season, that would be far too game-changing for them.

 

Perhaps, if we all pitch in together & pool our money we can just buy LL a one-way ticket out of SC for reasons? Grave or Train, I'm impartial to how LL leaves SC.

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If that rumor that the movie side wants Black Canary for the JLA flick is in anyway true, it doesn't even matter what KC's contract says. They'll kill BC off on Arrow in .3 seconds.

 

I don't think this going to matter unless this show goes on a lot longer than I think it will.  They didn't kill Amanda off until a few months before the release of Suicide Squad.  Even if they want Black Canary for the first Justice League movie - KC could play her through the end of season five with no issue.  But she also might not appear until the second Justice League movie in 2019.

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why you speak only laurel?lol,  she  is not only likely to be in the grave , and thea ? samantha ? william? Diggle? this may be one of them

People are discussing Laurel being in the grave because they want to discuss Laurel being in the grave. If you want to discuss someone else being in the grave, do so. It's not up to you to decide what other people discuss.

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why you speak only laurel?lol,  she  is not only likely to be in the grave , and thea ? samantha ? william? Diggle? this may be one of them

Diggle is not in the grave. If Dig is in the grave, I think the audience may join him there. 

 

Samantha or William are long-shots because the writers said it would be significant. And why would MG/WM fly out to break the news to some random guest stars?

 

Thea in the grave has potential. It would satisfy the whole death & time want to fix itself problem. If TQ was supposed to die in s3 and TA twisted her fate with the LP. Then given the writers new found love for the timeline wanting to fix itself, I could see her in the grave. The only problem is I don't want to see her there. But the signs could be interpreted to point to her. MM brought her into this world, so I can see OQ being hellbent on getting the "him" and the "him" being MM. Also the "him" could be DD because she sacrifices herself to defeat him, fails in doing it & now OQ wants revenge.

 

That all being said, I still think it is a Lance. They are so tangential to the storyline. If one were to die, OQ's life & ARROW would not change. There would be sadness, a revenge mission and then s5 could pick up right where we left off. No holes to fill. If we kill off OQ's last remaining blood relative. Who becomes his family? Dig & FS are his family. But in superhero stories there always has to be a blood family. Yes, they could bring in William full-time, but who wants to deal with child labor laws and writing for a pre-teen? And its way too soon for OQ/FS to have a baby just to have a blood Queen. I think Thea is safe because she is his blood-related sister.

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I for one love that the only excuse for Laurel not dying is, because comics. For everyone else it's because they are important to the story of Oliver Queen and the show. I love anyone pointing out how unnecessary Laurel is to the entire Flarrowverse. 

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You guys are starting to remind me of myself (plus some other long-timers) 2 years ago when we were all hoping Laurel would die in s2 because everything seemed to be pointing to that. And what happened? Yep, the jacket passing scene and Laurel with Oliver's bow (I'm still cringing remembering that). So I don't believe they'll kill her off until I see it with my own eyes.

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You guys are starting to remind me of myself (plus some other long-timers) 2 years ago when we were all hoping Laurel would die in s2 because everything seemed to be pointing to that. And what happened? Yep, the jacket passing scene and Laurel with Oliver's bow (I'm still cringing remembering that). So I don't believe they'll kill her off until I see it with my own eyes.

Personally, I still think it's Quentin, even though it should be Laurel. BUT, some of KC's recent social media activity has left me a little less sure of that. Mostly the "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger"-style quote she had up on Twitter and Instagram. That posting fit the timeline of Guggie's and WM's visit, which seems, based on the timing of the visit and the fact that nothing massively important was filming (it was during, I think, 16, which is a non-sweeps episode) likely to have been an in-person firing. KC has since removed that posting from both Twitter and Instagram, which makes me wonder if the studio asked her to do so, because it was causing chatter that she had been canned and was trying to cheer herself up.

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I know we can't read too much into the limo scene, but I find it very difficult to believe that Felicity would be having that kind of reaction to Samantha's or William's death. Angry yes, but in that scene, Felicity is reacting to a personal loss. And while I think that can be stretched to include Lance, especially considering his relationship with her mother, I don't think that would include either of the Claytons. As far as I'm concerned, the limo scene ruled Samantha and William out. I found it highly unlikely before that, but now I think it's completely off the table.

Thea....it's hard for me to believe that they would remove Oliver's last blood relative (other than the kid). The only thing that makes me consider it is the spoilers about a replay of the showdown between Malcolm and Oliver. Malcolm has been playing nice with Oliver, at the moment, probably because of Thea. What causes the change? What puts them in conflict again?

You guys are starting to remind me of myself (plus some other long-timers) 2 years ago when we were all hoping Laurel would die in s2 because everything seemed to be pointing to that. And what happened? Yep, the jacket passing scene and Laurel with Oliver's bow (I'm still cringing remembering that). So I don't believe they'll kill her off until I see it with my own eyes.

Oh yeah. That's a painful memory. I was one of the ones completely convinced Laurel was a goner in season two. It's one of the reasons I've been so reluctant to board the "Laurel's in the grave" train this season. And I'm still not convinced. I'm just....more open to the possibility than I was before. And I will probably end up regretting that. Lol.

Edited by Starfish35
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It could be they keep repeating that she can take care of herself because, if the characters believe it, then we'll believe it as well - and finally stop doubting her "badass" credentials. :D

 

That's certainly how I'm interpreting the insistence she can take care of herself. They know many in the audience don't believe it and so they just keep hammering it. Just like that "saving the world" crap they always tie in with her.

 

I don't take the statements as death anvils for her, because IMO they're never killing their Black Canary. I don't know why, it doesn't make sense. All the other characters that have been killed aren't exactly regulars on the show so the Because Comics reasoning doesn't really apply (yes, they killed off the dude on LOT but 2nd episode into the series, without giving the audience time to get attached? That doesn't matter much, plus they're already trying to sell the "out of timeline" loophole). Laurel/Katie Cassidy/Black Canary is just such a weird case because she doesn't belong on Arrow anymore, IMO, and yet they can't seem to drop her. Any contract can be broken so it's probably not that. I want to say they really want their GA/BC pairing but they're not even really pairing them off. The only time I noticed GA/BC together was in the last ep when Laurel's head kept popping in and out from behind Oliver's. But like the sparring scene, it wasn't about them, Oliver again was focused on Felicity. It was hilarious. KC is hardly mentioned in reviews, and if she is it's mostly in mockery (unless the media outfit is TV Fanatic or that guy on TVOvermind; then they fawn over her for reasons that don't actually exist). Anyway, she's not going away anytime soon, IMO, for reasons only the EPs know.

Edited by SmallScreenDiva
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Thea....it's hard for me to believe that they would remove Oliver's last blood relative (other than the kid). The only thing that makes me consider it is the spoilers about a replay of the showdown between Malcolm and Oliver. Malcolm has been playing nice with Oliver, at the moment, probably because of Thea. What causes the change? What puts them in conflict again?

I think they could have them in conflict again in a lot of ways without killing Thea. Malcolm is a turd. I mean hey, if Oliver just got an IQ infusion he'd immediately be in conflict with Malcolm again, bc Malcolm is evil as hell. Maybe Oliver finally wakes up and realizes Malcolm probably revivified Vandal Savage. Maybe Malcolm teams up with DD or HIVE. Maybe Thea is seriously injured and for whatever reason Malcolm blames Oliver. We know Nyssa's going to try to get Oliver on her side, maybe that works, bc Nyssa offers a cure for Felicity or whatever, and that turns them against each other again.

 

Because I don't care what ANYONE involved with the show BSs at me, Malcolm is an absolutely evil human being, who is far more likely to do evil than good or even neutral at any given moment. Oliver's absolute dumbest action ever on the show (okay, maybe not dumber than leaving one working parachute right there for RAG to use WHEN HIS WHOLE PLAN WAS TO KILL RAG AND THE VIRUS IN A PLANE CRASH SERIOUSLY HOW DUMB WAS THAT?!) has been not killing him.

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Malcolm should have died the moment they realized he drugged Thea and made her kill Sara (please ignore how stupid that sounds). He literally put Thea in the cross-hairs of the LOA to save his own ass and no one seems to remember that he's an antagonist. I hope Nyssa coming back means something.  

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They don't even to seem to care about Laurel. Most of her storylines are afterthoughts because she's still there. It's like they write the show then realize they have Laurel and throw her in somewhere. 

 

It's pretty obvious which Canary (doesn't matter what color she's wearing) they are more interested in writing for. Sara got a huge arc in season 2 (bigger than anything Laurel's ever had) and yes they killed her off for Because Comics, then they realized their mistake brought her back and are giving her even more personality and storylines on her own show. It's 5 years later Laurel's still flailing around on Arrow and her big storyline this year was bringing Sara back. While Sara's biggest storylines have very little to do with Laurel. 

 

Wouldn't be easier to get rid of her and not have to worry about fitting her in? 

Edited by Sakura12
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I think the show paints in board strokes. They knew Moira was going to be a grey character who helps connect the Undertaking to Oliver. She had tons of story left but once that happened her broad stroke story was over so they could kill her.

 

Right now Thea is not only Oliver's family, she's his sole family from before the island as well as Malcolm's family. Through Thea Malcolm is connected to Oliver. I think Thea is going to get hurt(maybe this week) and that is what is going to cause issue with Malcolm. Plus whatever is happening with Nyssa. But I don't think it's Thea's death that causes the problem.

 

Diggle is Oliver's best friend. Is Oliver's only Male friend (or if you will only male friend who lives in Star). OTA is a huge draw for Arrow. Diggle might not be young but he is hot so the CW can't have no complaints about him.

 

Laurel is the ex-girlfriend and has reached her BC status. Her board strokes have come into fruition. Her not being BC is how I knew they wouldn't kill Laurel in season. I knew Sara had to die for Laurel to be pushed to being BC. Sara should have been promoted to BC (imo) but that was never going to be the case. Laurel needed her island and Sara was used for that.

 

Laurel is a mask and that will give some "anyone can be killed" umps for Oliver. And her being Oliver's ex can really get Oliver to look into his past to see how far he as come. And how lying and secret keeping keeps getting him into messes. I don't see how any of the other deaths can be a positive lesson for Oliver. Diggle's death could be a huge negative lesson though. It's a sure sign to a return to being just the "Arrow" though.

 

Laurel would be another death of a major female though. But When you take into consideration Oliver has mostly female Allies as well as you count all the male deaths in season 2 (we count Shado so why not?) we can lose another female. 

 

Lance was the cop and father of Oliver's ex girlfriend[s). I have been thinking that he could die ever since they brought Sara back from the dead(the first time). The cops aren't as involved since the 1st season. But they have connected him to Donna, Felicity's mom. Making him connected to Oliver. Well if the Olicity wedding happens. But because he has been expendable since Sara's return, he's the easy death. Will the show take the easy death. Probably.

Edited by tarotx
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The only time I noticed GA/BC together was in the last ep when Laurel's head kept popping in and out from behind Oliver's.

She was playing peek-a-boo! That scene cracked me up, it might have been the one I rewatched the most of the episode, haha.

Edited by looptab
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I was driving down and back to LA from the Bay area and spent my time wisely, thinking about who could be in the grave.  I came up with one additional reason that I think it could be Laurel:  they went to great lengths to have Sara say good-bye to her on screen on BOTH shows.  They didn't do that with Lance.  I feel like they might have been setting up a "I have to do this for my sister!" thing, but for Sara this time.

 

I also spent my time thinking about all the possible killers:  Malcolm, Darhk, Anarchy, Andy Diggle, Slade, the Calculator, the other Wilson mentioned by Amell who has yet to make themselves known.  Oddly enough, I'm thinking that Darhk may not be finished off this season and therefore might not be the killer (or kills someone, and then the hunt for him extends through next season). 

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So #cringey

And "onset" is not the same as "on set". Unless she means she's coming down with the flu or something. /nitpick

It's twitter, not like she can write that much, especially when it comes to hashtags, where you can't hashtag On Set.

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People are discussing Laurel being in the grave because they want to discuss Laurel being in the grave. If you want to discuss someone else being in the grave, do so. It's not up to you to decide what other people discuss.

I don't think @Spartan was telling us all what to talk about, I think she was wondering why we were only saying it could probably be Laurel and not anyone else.

Also it is obvious from her posts that english isn't her first language (I should know!), I think this is a clear case of meaning being "lost in translation" when writing from her native language to english.

I do that on occasion too.

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I was never on the Laurel exit train in S2. They were putting too much into her for me to believe that they were sending her off. I still think they thought they could turn her around. And in a way, I think they believe that they have. Their problem is now all the boxes are ticked, but there is nothing for her to do and frankly not much to show for it. Unlike S2, they can write her out and say that they took her on a full journey and accomplished everything they wanted for her character. And that is exactly how they are writing it now.

 

It makes so much sense it hurts. Sigh.

 

I actually feel bad for the #hashtag actress. She probably thought this role was going to turn out so differently for her. And it's not all her fault (I say all because she is really a bad actress), the writing is truly awful and everyone is so tried of flashbacks.  

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It's twitter, not like she can write that much, especially when it comes to hashtags, where you can't hashtag On Set.

It's Twitter, so I know there's no point in me making fun of proper grammar/vocabulary. I'm just being petty and snarky because the overuse of hashtags was already silly two years ago, so it's especially ridiculous now.
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I didn't get the sense Laurel would die in season 2.Not after they had her become an addict and overcome it,no matter how unconvincing and poorly written that arc was.The whole season was about cruicibles and they were giving her one.I do think they might have wanted to write her out and bts stuff got in the way and they were for sure working on reducing her role and replacing her as LI but I didn't think they were going to kill her off.It seems more likely now that they're doing nothing with her and when she's pretty much reached her endgame with becoming BC.Though they did get caught up in having Sara as Canary.They gave her so much of the story Laurel was supposed to get its hard for me to believe they were planning in season 2 to make Laurel the one true BC and Sara was just a placeholder.

 

Yeah i totally agree about the Laurel on LoT thing.For me its betwen Laurel and Quentin for the grave,I really don't think its anyone else.Sara is probably going to get a reaction to it on LoT.And the fact that Laurel got goodbyes on both shows and with that weird "love you always and forever"line in 4.06 while Quentin had an offscreen ggodbye and wasn't even mentioned in the LoT pilot, just makes me think its Laurel even more.

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I don't understand why you would attach hashtags to random words in your tweet.  It's perplexing.  Also, go away #Poppy.  Your presence in the flashbacks is pointless, and I don't care to watch you sleep with Oliver.  #nonentity #OverIt

Edited by SonofaBiscuit
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I'm something of a Twitter neophyte (I was called a fake bc I had, apparently, an egg avatar...who knew that was bad?). But don't hashtags basically act as an index? So you can click on the hashtag, and it gives you all the other tweets, from whomever, with that hashtag? I mean, what does a "#grateful" hashtag accomplish? There would probably be some other tweets with that hashtag, but they would have nothing to do with her or Arrow. They'd be other people who felt "#grateful" for various things, right?

 

So, what's the point?

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