Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Chaser]

I hadn't thought about it like that. It does make sense.

[kismet]

No offense to Hawkgirl, because it's not her fault. But after spending so many eps on the other LOT characters & setup on both shows. The spinoff is starting to wear out its welcome. I wish the crossover was just the real backdoor pilot & they save Hawkgirls origin story for it's own show. Just like they are saving SLs for non-ARROW watchers and the Snart crew for non-FLASH viewers.

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, to be honest, I thought the crossovers would primarily involve the LoT characters we already know, and maybe intro the others but not focus on them. I'm not interested in the Hawks yet, and centering episodes on them feels like two extra eps of LoT, not episodes of The Flash and Arrow and that's not what I want out of crossovers. But maybe it won't really feel like that in the end, because the EPs are so often terrible at describing their own shows.

[tarotx]

If you read some of the comments about the Hawks after Hawkgirl was announced for LOT, there was a lot of demanding her Orgin be done well. I think this is for the comicbook fans instead of the tv show fans. I even think the Green Arrow fighting along side Black Canary will be played up as best they can with this Black Canary.

Edited November 14, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

If you read some of the comments about the Hawks after Hawkgirl was announced for LOT, there was a lot of demanding her Orgin be done well. I think this is for the comicbook fans instead of the tv show fans. I even think the Green Arrow fighting along side Black Canary will be played up as best they can with this Black Canary.

If that was their plan. They coukd have just cut down the other characters arcs. RP didn't need to be mentioned from e401. SLs arc could have been better and maybe show us more SL after we finally resurrected her.

But I guess it is what it is. This also maybe the writers only chance to show GA & BC together so I guess I van grin and bear it foe the comic viewers.

[Chaser]

Why would it be the only chance to show GA and BC fighting?

[tarotx]

Ray and Sara were used as Felicity's and Laurel's arcs. Very little if that was for Ray and Sara. Except they came back with more skill perhaps.

And even if Laurel is killed the crossover won't be the last GA/BC fight together. I just think they are going to really try and make the comicbook fans happy in this crossover. They promised Hawkgirl would have closer to source material orgin than they've done with any of the Characters. It's just my opinion.

I rather have as much Sara as possible because she's my girl but I rarely get what I want :p

Edited November 14, 2015 by tarotx

[Chaser]

The heavy comic booky of the crossover doesn't surprise me. The whole JLA-thing, so I'm expecting some type of GA and BC fight shot. I was just confused about the 'last time' part. Even if Laurel is dust it wouldn't be happening till later in the season, so there are more stunt opportunities on Arrow.

 

I wanted another Oliver and Sara team-up. 

Edited November 14, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[EmeraldArcher]

I'm really starting to have hope that LL is the one in the grave. Oliver's post-island relationship with LL has been grounded in guilt. His recent acknowledgement that he does see her as his equal could be the reason that he tells Barry that, in the past, he would have felt like the death was his fault. However, if 405 was their reconciliation leading to Oliver ultimately assuaging his guilt about their history, he could then accept/respect her death as a risk she had every right to take with her own life. He would feel sadness at the loss of an old friend and ally, but he wouldn't necessarily feel responsible for her death because he had accepted her as a hero.

[bijoux]

We are certain Sara and Ray are in the Crossover right?

SA said they had a scene with nine masks (okay, I think he actually said superheroes). So I assume they'll be there. Or maybe he just doesn't know how to count to ten.

[Morrigan2575]

SA said they had a scene with nine masks (okay, I think he actually said superheroes). So I assume they'll be there. Or maybe he just doesn't know how to count to ten.

Don't forget Vandal Savage and Malcolm are in the episode, we already saw 7 of the 9 masks. The other 2 Masks/super powered people could be Savage and Merlyn

[pootlus]

I'm a terrible person, but every time I read the words "GA fighting alongside BC" my brain sees "GA fighting alongside BC's stunt double".

[dtissagirl]

I agree with @tarotx, I think it's basic tv law, even: they need to assemble the LoT team in the LoT pilot.

No clue if Rip Hunter's in the crossover, but he [and Sara and Palmer too] might be just because the EPs seem to want the Flash and Arrow audiences to know all the LoT characters beforehand. They can probably get away with Vandal Savage escaping, at the end of the second hour, and Rip showing all "I'm here to help you", end credits with "to be continued in new show LoT, starting <insert date here>, please watch it, it cost SO MUCH MONEY."

[SmallScreenDiva]

Lord knows I'm hoping Laurel is dropped from the show sooner than later but it's the powers that be's seeming obsession with masks as illustrated by their excitement over the crossover that make me think they will never give up having a Black Canary, even one that's polarizing as a character and rather underwhelming as an action persona.

[kismet]

Why would it be the only chance to show GA and BC fighting?

LL is going to die in the finale. Or at least that's what I hope. I'm trying to make the universe agree with me. The more I say it perhaps the more it will come true. I've tried the don't say it so you don't tempt fate. But decided to try new angle this season.

[Starfish35]

Well if she dies in the finale she's not the one in the grave.

[Primal Slayer]

They'll be fighting together for another season I believe so I'm not worried. I will laugh if it isn't even a full time cast member.

 

Since we know that DD has/had Laurel being stalked for part of the day, it is shame that they don't play up that storyline. They could have whoever is doing it grow an obsession with her and have it turn deadly. It's a brief storyline for Laurel, she gets to kick ass, she gets an enemy for a couple of episodes, but I doubt they will do that.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Ann Mack]

They'll be fighting together for another season I believe so I'm not worried. I will laugh if it isn't even a full time cast member.

 

Since we know that DD has/had Laurel being stalked for part of the day, it is shame that they don't play up that storyline. They could have whoever is doing it grow an obsession with her and have it turn deadly. It's a brief storyline for Laurel, she gets to kick ass, she gets an enemy for a couple of episodes, but I doubt they will do that.

I don't think the show has too much interest in bringing Laurel to the forefront of any story line this season. They'll let her maintain the BC status and fight either in the background or close proximity to GA but I don't think she's getting much more. I could be wrong but l think part of the reasons she is still around now are (just my opinion) 1. They're contractually obligated to keep her around and 2. They (EPs of Arrow) love their masks and since BC (not Laurel's/Arrow's version) is suppose to be kick ass well there you go. So no, I don't see her getting much more material unless it's to possibly mourn Lance or die a heroic death protecting him or someone on the GA team. But again I could be wrong as I stated earlier.

[Chaser]

Felicity mentioned being really good at her job. I hope that doesn't mean CEO Felicity has everything solved yet.

 

Regarding Laurel and the absent of story lines, WM mentioned juggling DA and vigilante. We haven't seen anything about that at all. They may be her 4b storyline.

[apinknightmare]

Felicity mentioned being really good at her job. I hope that doesn't mean CEO Felicity has everything solved yet.

 

Yeah, that was an odd statement, since we haven't actually seen her be good at her job. Or do her job at all, really, after the second ep. She's still got to come up with some kind of tech to save the company or whatever before that board meeting they're going to have in 5-ish months, so I don't think we've seen the last of that.

[kismet]

Well if she dies in the finale she's not the one in the grave.

Ok. Made a mistake. Can't keep all these epic death tolls straight. I meant she was the one in the grave. I'd actually be ok with her departure anytime in s4b. I'm not picky.

[wonderwall]

Regarding the Tweet James Bamford tweeted about "real girl power"...

 

Honestly....... I'm just resolved into thinking Laurel/thea are going to be in the field and Laurel will be supporting Diggle whilst Felicity will just stay at home to babysit Ray.

 

I hate this already. -_-

[Chaser]

Palmer Island.

 

Are there rocks ahead? If there are, we all be dead!

[Starfish35]

Ok. Made a mistake. Can't keep all these epic death tolls straight. I meant she was the one in the grave. I'd actually be ok with her departure anytime in s4b. I'm not picky.

Sorry. :( Didn't mean to come across as snippy.

[AyChihuahua]

Regarding the Tweet James Bamford tweeted about "real girl power"...

 

Honestly....... I'm just resolved into thinking Laurel/thea are going to be in the field and Laurel will be supporting Diggle whilst Felicity will just stay at home to babysit Ray.

 

I hate this already. -_-

As a longtime and consistent Cane Toad hater, amen.

 

But, at least she's at the party, so she's not totally isolated.

[kismet]

Sorry. :( Didn't mean to come across as snippy.

Didn't think you did. :) Neither did I :( forgot my emojis to indicate that I got what you meant.

[kismet]

We were talking about Poppy in the character thread. Maybe they can kill her in the midseason finale and parallel it with FS seriously injured & near death in the hospital. That way the audience may think FS must be dead in finale too. (No one in the audience would probably believe FS is dead, but I can see a whole hiatus of the Eps telling us she is dead just like they were adamant that OQ was dead last yr).

I hope the happens because i agree with some of you that the fb would be stronger without her in them. I also wonder if it would free up the island story to get to the more important stuff.

It's too hopeful to think it will allow him/fb to leave the island & go to a better location because I think the answer to beating DD lies in the mythology of the island. The writers are not done their homage to LOST

[bijoux]

I don't really blame her for the lackluster flashbacks, she's really not in them enough to make them worse. Both her and Reiter's importance was greatly exagerated before the season began. Conklin seems to be having the greatest impact and he wasn't mentioned once.

[dtissagirl]

I think it's a mix of not enough time [not that I want more time dispensed to the flashbacks, uh, NOPE] and the actress being so so so terribad it's like she's invisible.

[BkWurm1]

They blamed the problem with the flashbacks last year on not staying focused on them long enough to get you into what was happening but my complaint last and this year is that nothing that happens freaking matters enough to be interesting. Constantine was the exception and for a moment I thought the flashbacks had finally reached interesting story potential. I was curious what they were going to dig up. But nope, we waste time checking in on Poppy, nope not dead and then someone tries to kill Oliver and they die instead. Nope, still don't care. Oliver's life being in danger in the flashbacks is meaningless since we know he survives.

Edited November 15, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Sakura12]

With the flashbacks, in season 1 and 2 they were part of the show, then they started just being there, now I feel they are taking away from the show. It's like interesting things start happening then they cut away to nothing interesting happening on the island. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by Sakura12

[tarotx]

I'm kind of interested in what they will uncover and how it will affect the present day. I'm not interested in Oliver's relationship with these people. In season 1 and 2 the island relationships were development along side the present day ones. They were all new to me. Now I care about the present ones so that is what I want to see.

I need something that is going to make me care about the Island relationships. Though I only need Dramatic events for Oliver. Like Akio dying and Oliver Beating the Major to death was important but that all could have happened in a couple episodes-not a whole season. That's what I want. Mini arcs instead of season ones.

Maybe send Oliver out Bond style and we watch Oliver have no real attachments or relationships. Just superficial ones. Oliver will get to the point that he knows he has no one who cares about him. Then he refinds the Laurel picture and has a case the redirects him back to his father's mission. And Oliver goes back home lost with no connections but a real need for purpose&connection.

Edited November 15, 2015 by tarotx

[Soulfire]

My biggest issue is that the flashbacks have, IMO, started taking away momentum from whatever's going on in the present day. That, together with a less than linear narrative in the flashbacks, have turned the flashbacks into something where I go "Yeah, yeah, enough of this, let's get back to the real story now!"

[kismet]

The flashbacks could provide answers to solving current DD or pdproblem. I'm all for that which is why Constantine's ep was better. The hieroglyphs were another good step. OQ killing guy not interesting or important unless it leads to his S1 dark untrusting guy, which I doubt it will directly will and by the time they get around to uts relevancy it will be boring & likely unnecessary.

S4 fb should focus on a plot and screw the characters. Just have him doing missions. The only character development I care about in the fb is how we got to s1 OQ and we are nowhere close to that. And at times it doesn't even feel like we are on that track this season.

[dtissagirl]

The flashbacks could provide answers to solving current DD or pdproblem.

 

I think you're onto something there -- that they're trying to connect the mystical stuff in the flashbacks with DD's magic tricks. But I'm afraid they end up solving this exactly like the mess that was the mirakuru storyline -- a bunch of episodes of omg how do we beat these guys?! ...And then Oliver randomly remembers there's a cure in the appropriate late episode that lead into the final stretch of the storyline -- which totally reeked of a plot point that wasn't planned AT ALL, btw -- but that made Oliver look really really STOOPID.

[Chaser]

If the flashbacks are the key to some big thing to beating DD, I'm going to need someone to comment on Oliver's life running in circles. 

[tv echo]

Do we know that Oliver's proposal is real and not a dream or hallucination?

 

As for Felicity doing well at her job as CEO, I think we're supposed to accept that because they say so - just like we have to accept that Laurel is a great lawyer and still working as a full-time ADA and that Thea is still successfully running Verdant.  They're not going to spend precious screen time (already crammed with different characters and plots) with boring scenes of these characters working at their day jobs.

[AyChihuahua]

I think you're onto something there -- that they're trying to connect the mystical stuff in the flashbacks with DD's magic tricks. But I'm afraid they end up solving this exactly like the mess that was the mirakuru storyline -- a bunch of episodes of omg how do we beat these guys?! ...And then Oliver randomly remembers there's a cure in the appropriate late episode that lead into the final stretch of the storyline -- which totally reeked of a plot point that wasn't planned AT ALL, btw -- but that made Oliver look really really STOOPID.

It really is bizarre, because they act as if the flashbacks and present-day are running parallel, but, I mean, that's nutbars.  Oliver know from present day S1 everything that happened in the past, so yeah, for him to pop up with "Hey, there's a cure!" at almost the end of S2, when all that happened literal actual years ago makes him look like such a bizarre person (I can't remember what happened to me five years ago until something happens today that is similar!)  Is he supposed to be repressing everything or something?  I mean, I get storytelling device, but it's a pretty weird one.

 

Also, this last flashback made Constantine also look stupid.  He said the orb was useless, but it's not, and apparently there's some other big magic item on the island.  Poor form, Constantine, poor form.

[dtissagirl]

Is he supposed to be repressing everything or something?  I mean, I get storytelling device, but it's a pretty weird one.

 

I'd go one step far -- it's a BAD storytelling device. They aren't making Oliver someone with repressed memories that only recall stuff once triggered. He doesn't mention previous known information because he doesn't seem to know it... until the writers decide he does. Terrible, awful writing.

 

And ITA with the Constantine stuff, and not just on the island. The second he mentioned he's heard of DD, Oliver should have yanked him out of the elevator, sat him down with the whole team around that brand new conference table, and demanded Constantine tell them everything ever he knows about DD.

Edited November 15, 2015 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

 

As for Felicity doing well at her job as CEO, I think we're supposed to accept that because they say so - just like we have to accept that Laurel is a great lawyer and still working as a full-time ADA and that Thea is still successfully running Verdant.  They're not going to spend precious screen time (already crammed with different characters and plots) with boring scenes of these characters working at their day jobs.

I agree expcept for the part about Thea running The Verdant. I don't think she is anymore. It looked abandoned when they trapped Sara there, not just emptied out.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I don't think the club's open anymore.

[apinknightmare]

I think Thea's full-time job is being Oliver's campaign manager, haha.

[BunsenBurner]

When dealing with DD Oliver will know "when the time is right" and use the tattoo on his stomach and all will be right with the world. I would also guess that will be the end of that tattoo and we will no longer see it on his body.

[looptab]

Imagine the scene, DD and Oliver's final showdown, and Oliver starts stripping. 

[bijoux]

Imagine the scene, DD and Oliver's final showdown, and Oliver starts stripping.

Not without a good beat.

[looptab]

Not without a good beat.

I'm sure Blake Neely is working on something :D

[kismet]

Imagine the scene, DD and Oliver's final showdown, and Oliver starts stripping. 

It's almost obligatory - all fights between males on the CW must be fought shirtless at least once a season. It's probably why he missed his target during the dam fight.

[AyChihuahua]

Can someone explain to me why a fair number of people think it's Thea in the grave?  She's rocking it this year, plus that would be, even for this show, UNBELIEVABLY repetitive.  I really cannot imagine them doing that storyline AGAIN.  Unless it's to show that Oliver's grown and won't LP her this time, BUT they killed the LP, so it's not even an option, so still, UNBELIEVABLY repetitive.  I think she's behind Felicity as least-likely.

 

I have to say, I feel like I'm very slowly falling out of love with this show, finally and maybe this time for real.  I've not been impressed with any episode except for 4.3, I now hate that Bamford guy (and I already thought his stunt work sucked balls), Laurel is irritating and boring and pointless and yet will never leave, Quentin is utter scum and yet still is allowed to spend time with the wonderful Donna Smoak, OTA is barely in evidence, the Cane Toad is back, Sara's gone already.  The only things I truly like this season are Oliver's growth, Oliver/Felicity (mostly, I still think they went too mean with her last episode), and Thea.  DD's nice and all, but he seems pretty mustache-twirly so far.  Digg's practically invisible.  

[Guest]

Catching up on this thread…I enjoyed the narrative purpose of the flashbacks in s1 (thought they dragged a little in s2 but still great) but since last season they've felt tired and frustrating, particularly because we're yet to see this super dark Oliver that we should be building to. There was a slight hint of it last season when he tortured General Shrieve but if anything he seems to have gone backwards now by helping people, including flashback love interest whatever her name is. I still can't see how he falls in love with her. He should have all his emotional walls up by now.

 

I'm all for learning more about Oliver's time away but if they wanted to make the flashbacks interesting to me this year, Oliver should have straight-up tortured people and killed someone by now and not have many (if any) issues about it. Also he looks and sounds like present day Oliver too much and it's messing with my brain. 

 

 

Can someone explain to me why a fair number of people think it's Thea in the grave?  She's rocking it this year, plus that would be, even for this show, UNBELIEVABLY repetitive.  I really cannot imagine them doing that storyline AGAIN.  Unless it's to show that Oliver's grown and won't LP her this time, BUT they killed the LP, so it's not even an option, so still, UNBELIEVABLY repetitive.  I think she's behind Felicity as least-likely.

 

I don't think it's Thea either. I don't see this show killing off Oliver's last blood relative (his son he doesn't know exists, aside). But from what I've seen, people think it's Thea purely because of her bloodlust and that she might offer herself up as a sacrifice because it can't ever be cured and she doesn't want to kill people to satisfy it. I mean, it's a pretty good theory if it was for any other character, but not Oliver's only relative and also not someone who nearly died last season anyway. Too repetitive. 

 

I think it's Quentin but I'm not ruling out Felicity or Diggle because these EP's are dumb and they do dumb stuff all the time.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

I'd almost be happy if it were Felicity or Digg, bc then I could quit this largely-stupid show. 

 

But it's not...it's totally Quentin.