Spoiler Discussion Thread

[tv echo]

Sorry for my belated response on this issue - but regarding the 405 Asia promo video in which Laurel says to Oliver, "It's okay for you to do whatever you have to do for your sister, but it's not okay for me to do the same for mine"...

 

First, the situations are not the same at all.  There's a big difference between (1) saving someone who's still alive from dying and (2) bringing a dead person back from the grave. Thea had not yet crossed the threshold from life into death; Sara had. Thea was seriously wounded by being skewered with a sword and would've died, but she was not dead yet.  Her soul had not left her body.  Oliver using the LP to save her when she was beyond the help of modern medicine was akin to someone using modern medicine to save someone back in the 13th century who would've been considered 'mortally wounded' back then.  Moreover, even today, someone who drowns or whose heart stops and is technically dead for a few minutes can be revived using CPR or electric shock.  There are even anecdotes about people who see themselves as spirits (astral bodies) hovering over their body for a few minutes before being rejoined with their body and revived.  Sara, however, was clearly dead-dead and buried, and had been decomposing for a year.  Her soul had long departed from this world. 

 

Second, while Malcolm warned that using the LP could have side effects, Oliver did not have a living, breathing example of those side effects in front of him.  Laurel did, in the form of an increasingly bloodlust-crazed Thea.  So she was knowingly subjecting her sister to suffer that same bloodlust or worse.  Sara could've come back as a zombie or alive but in the same decomposed state.

 

Third, some might say that, by resurrecting Sara, Laurel did something even worse than saving her - she caused Sara to lose her soul.  Not to get into a heavy religious discussion, but saving one's soul is more important than saving one's life. The soul is eternal, but human life is finite.  So at a minimum, Laurel should've researched what resurrection would mean to Sara (not to Laurel) before taking action.  Maybe talk to Malcolm and Nyssa before digging up Sara's body. It's not as if Sara could've gotten any deader by the delay.  If resurrecting Sara meant that she would lose her soul, then that would arguably be a greater sin than killing her in the first place.

 

But of course, in true Arrow fashion, Constantine will conveniently be able to restore Sara's soul - and Laurel will be celebrated as the hero who stood steadfast in the face of everyone's objections and "saved" Sara.

Edited October 30, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

The only thing helping Laurel is that Sara's a survivor. She'll keep going forward even after being traumatized yet again. Laurel will be celebrated as a caring, warm hero and Sara will learn to adapt to her new life as re-souled undead person that needs to fight the urge to kill people, while also thanking Laurel for doing that to her and telling Laurel how proud she is that she stole her name. 

 

Sara should want nothing to do with Laurel. It should be "Thanks for bringing me back to life so I can suffer even more and fight the urge to kill an innocent woman that was brainwashed by a man."

[apinknightmare]

Sorry for my belated response on this issue - but regarding the 405 Asia promo video in which Laurel says to Oliver, "It's okay for you to do whatever you have to do for your sister, but it's not okay for me to do the same for mine"...

First, the situations are not the same at all. There's a big difference between (1) saving someone who's still alive from dying and (2) bringing a dead person back from the grave. Thea had not yet crossed the threshold from life into death; Sara had. Thea was seriously wounded by being skewered with a sword and would've died, but she was not dead yet. Her soul had not left her body. Oliver using the LP to save her when she was beyond the help of modern medicine was akin to someone using modern medicine to save someone back in the 13th century who would've been considered 'mortally wounded' back then. Moreover, even today, someone who drowns or whose heart stops and is technically dead for a few minutes can be revived using CPR or electric shock. There are even anecdotes about people who see themselves as spirits (astral bodies) hovering over their body for a few minutes before being rejoined with their body and revived. Sara, however, was clearly dead-dead and buried, and had been decomposing for a year. Her soul had long departed from this world.

Second, while Malcolm warned that using the LP could have side effects, Oliver did not have a living, breathing example of those side effects in front of him. Laurel did, in the form of an increasingly bloodlust-crazed Thea. So she was knowingly subjecting her sister to suffer that same bloodlust or worse. Sara could've come back as a zombie or alive but in the same decomposed state.

Third, some might say that, by resurrecting Sara, Laurel did something even worse than saving her - she caused Sara to lose her soul. Not to get into a heavy religious discussion, but saving one's soul is more important than saving one's life. The soul is eternal, but human life is finite. So at a minimum, Laurel should've researched what resurrection would mean to Sara (not to Laurel) before taking action. Maybe talk to Malcolm and Nyssa before digging up Sara's body. It's not as if Sara could've gotten any deader by the delay. If resurrecting Sara meant that she would lose her soul, then that would arguably be a greater sin than killing her in the first place.

But of course, in true Arrow fashion, Constantine will conveniently be able to restore Sara's soul - and Laurel will be celebrated as the hero who stood steadfast in the face of everyone's objections and "saved" Sara.

Yeah, I agree that the situations aren't the same at all, but I'm sure that in-show Laurel will be right by pointing that out to Oliver.

I'm also fairly positive that in the show, Sara will have already lost her soul - that she was in a hell-like place before Laurel decided to bring her back, and that the bringing her back will be what allows her soul to be restored. I will be shocked if in-show anything that Laurel did caused Sara's soul any kind of harm. Since MG said that she's 100% in the right, I'm guessing that resurrecting her and allowing her to live on and be the hero she never thought she was is going to be giving Sara a second chance, saving her from eternal damnation or something equally stupid like that.

[looptab]

Yeah, the fact that there's no script cover yet  made me wonder whether they had started 410 or not. Although it's possible that they're still completing the crossover (SA tweeted something about his last scene with GG), or at least a part of the cast is, while the rest  is on 410. Ugh I want to know, haha

 

Edited because the doubts are on 410, not 409 :)

Edited October 30, 2015 by looptab

[Chaser]

Agenda based Tumblr is so a thing when you wake up at 4 in the morning for no reason. For the record. LOL

 

Sigh. Constantine is probably going to say something like "normally I wouldn't approve of these actions but in this case..." Ugh

 

"Stiletto" for Olicity in this episode is odd. It's all sharp objects and wounds. I wasn't expecting anything Olicity related in this episode, but maybe that scene with Felicity telling Oliver about her guilt is in this episode and not 4x06? Maybe finding out about Sara coming back gets Felicity talking?

[jay741982]

Ugh I do not want Felicity keeping something from Oliver AGAIN STOP IT MG and WM. I don't want secrets between this couple again whether it's Oliver or Felicity.

[Starfish35]

Well, I had a thought yesterday. The possible silver lining of having all these Lance family episodes right now is that maybe we won't get them in their normal time (eps 11-14).

[Sunshine]

Perhaps the songs are for the episodes and not just Olicity based on how the question was phrased. 409 Dark Waters was released. 410 hasn't been.

[apinknightmare]

Ugh I do not want Felicity keeping something from Oliver AGAIN STOP IT MG and WM. I don't want secrets between this couple again whether it's Oliver or Felicity.

Pretty sure she's going to hide the fact that she thinks Ray is alive (maybe because she's not sure, or because she's worried he'll feel insecure about it), but it seems like that will come out in 4x06, based on the ep summary.

[quarks]

Yeah, "Stiletto" sounds to me like a reference to Sara, not Oliver/Felicity.

[tv echo]

“She can wound with her eyes.”

 

I'm wondering what this refers to (re Oliver & Felicity).

Edited October 30, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

I'm wondering what this refers to (re Oliver & Felicity).

Didn't MG say that Felicity was gonna be pissed that Oliver and Donna have been keeping in touch without her knowing? And given that there's gonna be some tension between O/F in 4x06 because of Ray, I think it's probably got something to do with that.

[looptab]

 409 Dark Waters was released. 410 hasn't been.

Right, I edited my previous post. My brain isn't collaborative today :)

[wonderwall]

 

Could be he had a bunch of nasty asks about WTF they're doing with Laurel in this resurrection storyline and he didn't feel like diving into it, or it could just be that there were a shitload of Olicity/Felicity asks in his inbox.

 

Pretty sure it's the latter because just a few hours before, smoakandarrow made a post about sending MG tumblr asks if they haven't. I think that made a huge impact. I still go by him just answering from top to bottom. I don't think there's an agenda :)

[kismet]

Ugh I do not want Felicity keeping something from Oliver AGAIN STOP IT MG and WM. I don't want secrets between this couple again whether it's Oliver or Felicity.

I agree.... I do not want new secrets kept between them. I do not mind old secrets that haven't been revealed like OQ knowing Magic or FS being a Hacktavist. But new secrets, I just find that boring, repetitive and not quality story telling. I don't need an absolute code of honesty, where there is an instant reveal/telling. But I feel like the lingering secrets will only bring unnecessary drama to the relationship and the show.

[Sunshine]

Does Constantine know that Andy and Ray are not dead? Or perhaps he knows something related to Darhk which is his parting gift to Oliver?

Edited October 30, 2015 by Sunshine

[BunsenBurner]

Loved your summation @TVEcho! My brother hovered above the operating team as they were desperately trying to save his life. He rarely tells his story but it's effect on our lives was huge.

I believe Laurel will get the credit for saving Sara. This is of course is incorrect, the proper person to give credit for Sara's salvation should go to Oliver. He is the one who knows who to go to to TRY and bring Sara back. Yes he is hoping Constantine knows how to do it but without Oliver's knowledge Sara would be a body without a soul.

[Princess Vanellope]

It's all good. Like a friend of mine said, if she's making amends with Oliver, and on good terms with her family, she's higher up on the "who's dead?" List. Silver linings people. ;)

[kismet]

I believe Laurel will get the credit for saving Sara. This is of course is incorrect, the proper person to give credit for Sara's salvation should go to Oliver. He is the one who knows who to go to to TRY and bring Sara back. Yes he is hoping Constantine knows how to do it but without Oliver's knowledge Sara would be a body without a soul.

I would like to hope (but I know its naive of me) that in this new version of OQ/Arrow storytime, OQ will get credit for helping to resurrect SL's soul. But it will probably all go to LL. I really wish LL had handled bringing SL back better, so that I could not be as angry at her for how she handled it. Locking SL up in a basement & telling nobody about it because she doesn't want their judgment was so selfish & so Laurel. And how she revealed it to her father was so thoughtless and cruel, esp considering his heart. If only she had actually cared enough to bring SL back and not just wait & see while she hopes her father turns around and her sister remembers who she is based upon a few pictures and no answers.

 

Perhaps the writers will allow LL & OQ to share the credit. Maybe that will be the eventual outcome of the hallway scene.

[bijoux]

Pretty sure she's going to hide the fact that she thinks Ray is alive (maybe because she's not sure, or because she's worried he'll feel insecure about it), but it seems like that will come out in 4x06, based on the ep summary.

As of the end of the last episode, does Felicity even suspect Ray's alive? Didn't she go into the recording thinking it contained his last words? And if she gets an inkling in 4x05 while Sara is first on the loose and then Oliver's either in real or halucinated NP, only to reveal her suspicions in the next episode, it's not really something that bothers me.

[apinknightmare]

As of the end of the last episode, does Felicity even suspect Ray's alive? Didn't she go into the recording thinking it contained his last words? And if she gets an inkling in 4x05 while Sara is first on the loose and then Oliver's either in real or halucinated NP, only to reveal her suspicions in the next episode, it's not really something that bothers me.

Yeah, it doesn't bother me either.

I'm not sure if she knows he's alive or not, although since he wasn't wearing his suit at his TOS (time of shrinkage) but it still somehow recorded his "last words" after the explosion. I would hope that after the initial words that we heard from him in that recording "I'm sorry Felicity, this is my fault" that he actually asked her for help? Unless they're going to try to sell that he didn't shrink right away and he actually thought he was dying. So I'm hoping she has some idea, otherwise WTF show.

[wonderwall]

I think she's going to have an inkling next wednesday and then tell Oliver in episode 6 which we know he knows by that point because we saw him try to comfort Felicity while she told him it's her fault. 

[kismet]

Maybe its Rays' fault that DD turned his eyes on SC? Maybe RP also sought out DD's assistance in helping to restore SC & bring his suit into life. I would find it interesting if they put that twist on it. Perhaps the reason DD may have RP, is that he was calling in his debts. I would actually appreciate seeing that RP was not as perfect as he wants to be. I never trusted RP and I would like for that gut feeling to be proven right to a certain degree. I think it would also go along way in making RP more fitting for the spin-off to realize some of his mistakes have consequences. He was so black & white with his high moralistic attitude towards OQ/TA in 317, it would be nice to see him understand that things aren't always what they seem - that you can't trust people based upon what they say.

[Belinea]

There has to be a reason as to why RP is associated with DD in the description for 4x06. One way or the other, Felicity will have found out by 4x06 what happened to Ray. She will probably be distraught and Oliver won't know what to do, therefore he calls Donna himself. Cannot wait for their interaction. :-)

 

After reading that script page that MG published, I really have to say that they either will really kill of Felicity or they really wanted you to believe it. Why they cut some specific lines then, I don't know. But either way, it would have been so obvious 

[Chaser]

Script page?

[Guest]

Script page?

 

It's on MG's twitter. It's a scene from 401 when O/F are unpacking in the loft.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

After reading that script page that MG published, I really have to say that they either will really kill of Felicity or they really wanted you to believe it. Why they cut some specific lines then, I don't know. But either way, it would have been so obvious

Yeah, I'm glad they changed it - that dialogue was like 10 anvils at once. And I think they definitely want us to believe it's her - I posted this yesterday, but I really do think Oliver will propose in 4x09, and then something terrible will happen, leading us to believe she's the one in the grave over the hiatus.

Still think it's Quentin in there.

And thank god they cut that dialogue, because it was awful. Oliver would never say something like that, haha.

[bijoux]

After reading that script page that MG published, I really have to say that they either will really kill of Felicity or they really wanted you to believe it. Why they cut some specific lines then, I don't know. But either way, it would have been so obvious 

What script page?

 

I read this article and some things caught my eye.

 

 

 

* Oliver and Constantine’s first scene takes place under unexpected and tense circumstances.

* While the purpose of the exorcist’s appearance is to help restore Sara’s soul, he also has a connection to two other storylines. In related news: Constantine gives Oliver a parting gift of sorts — and a warning.

 

I wonder about those tense circumstances and the gift. Something to mellow out Laurel? 

 

 

* Earlier this month, executive producer Wendy Mericle hinted at an unlikely partnership between Diggle and Lance. “We will have some cool things where Dig and Lance find themselves on the other side of Oliver, going on independent missions,” she teased. This week, viewers will get the first taste of that.

I find this strange. Not the Diggle part, but the Lance one. When Oliver is helping to restore your zombie daughter's soul what else takes priority?

 

 

* Those flashbacks that my colleague Matt Mitovich is not a fan of actually feel significant and have purpose this week!

I'll believe it when I see it. I've gotten so numb in regards to the flashbacks that I was surprised how good the were in The Odyssey when I rewached it. They carried the whole episode.

 

 

* Did you know the new lair has a P.A. system? (Oliver is so regretting it.) We’ll also get a peek at the suh-weet garage.

I do wonder about the PA system. So many possibiities.

 

ETA: I saw the script page and laughed. That's some really bad fanfic there. Plus, it makes no sense seguing into it after what they were discussing before. I wonder how they imagined Oliver hiding the ring in a book. A special carved out book that he used to hide pt from Robert and Moira?

Edited October 30, 2015 by bijoux

[Chaser]

I'm betting the PA system is involved in the funny moment between Felicity and Constantince.

 

Looking forward to reading that script page. The more anvils they throw at Felicity the more I'm confident it's not her. Unless..that's what they want you to think...LOL

[Guest]

Yeah, the cut lines from the 401 script are so heavy handed. They definitely wanted everyone to think Felicity is in the grave.

 

Also, I'm laughing because it seems like the "We can get a rug" line was ad-libbed by SA. Haha. Awesome.

[apinknightmare]

That script page reeks of red herring. Like, so badly that it's slapping you across the face a hundred times, baby fish mouth red herring. The ring to grave transition was anvil-y enough, but compared to the dialogue, it's subtle, haha.

[bijoux]

Also, I'm laughing because it seems like the "We can get a rug" line was ad-libbed by SA. Haha. Awesome.

Ha! I didn't even catch that.

[apinknightmare]

This fromTVLine (which I'm pretty sure is posted somewhere here, but if not I can post when I'm not on my phone):

* Oliver and Laurel have a much overdue and heated conversation about all the secret-keeping they’ve both done and the state of their friendship.

Guess this is our reverse hallway scene.

http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/10/arrow-episode-405-haunted-latest-from.html?m=1

Edited October 30, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

Oliver would do whatever it took to save his sister and Laurel v would do the same, probably what Laurel was getting at. Now would Oliver do it after a year? Maybe. Maybe not.

Should Laurel had actually thought it out, went over scenarios and try to come up with a plan if things went south? HELL YES.

Marcs tumblr is always bittersweet for me. He could've had more well round questions to answers for multiple characters but oh well.

[Guest]

I don't know. The last round of questions MG answered featured Laurel heavily. I think it's just about him balancing them out tbh. Although I've learned not to pay attention to whatever he says.

[HighHopes]

Marcs tumblr is always bittersweet for me. He could've had more well round questions to answers for multiple characters but oh well.

I think MG probably gets hundreds of asks and so he probably only looks at the first 20 or so, and then answers the non-repetitive ones from there. I think one person had two of their questions answered? It's just all about timing, and as someone had pointed out SmoaknArrow had organized a "go ask MG questions" thing so that's probably why there was so many Felicity and Oliver/Felicity related questions- pure luck. 

[thegirlsleuth]

I'm wondering if the introduction of the new intercom system might come by way of some patented Felicity Smoak accidental innuendo.

[Chaser]

I think dtissagirl will appreciate this lyric from All my Life: 

 

"My stars were surely crossed." 

 

LOLOLOLOLOL

[dtissagirl]

I think dtissagirl will appreciate this lyric from All my Life: 

 

"My stars were surely crossed." 

 

LOLOLOLOLOL

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

[but I appreciate this post. <3]

[Chaser]

Lol, the rough cut of 4X05 has been leaked online.

Anyone watch it?

[bijoux]

Have episodes been leaked vefore?

[Traveller]

wrong thread

Edited October 31, 2015 by Traveller

[Sakura12]

Someone on another board brought up a good question. If they couldn't get Constantine, how were they planning on bringing Sara back? Would we have gotten a different story? Was Laurel made to look like a delusional idiot so Constantine would be needed?

[Chaser]

I was reading some twitter tidbits. Lots of Thea and Laurel, not really a whole lot of Sara I guess (other then a void), apparently Laurel should be understood because everyone is guilty of lying to her. 

 

Not really seeing anything on the Oliver and Laurel hallway scene.

[looptab]

I couldn't even find tweets about it. #fail

[Belinea]

I was reading some twitter tidbits. Lots of Thea and Laurel, not really a whole lot of Sara I guess (other then a void), apparently Laurel should be understood because everyone is guilty of lying to her. 

 

Not really seeing anything on the Oliver and Laurel hallway scene.

 

So all the ingredients for a good episode.... Laurel and Thea and no Sara... 

Also I will never understand this logic: I lied to you so if you turn around and lie to me that is only fair because you started it. The mature way would be to say you are a liar but I am better then you and don't lie, but whatever. It seems as though I will never be able to empathise with Laurel even though the writers think I should. 

[tarotx]

I can't find it :(

[Sakura12]

Quote from the episode

"This is your overlord Felicity Smoak"

said in the voice EBR used when she saw my Game of Thrones shirt at Walker Stalker con. 

[Chaser]

Twitter says it's on torrent.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I don't get the getting angry about someone lying to you and then turning around and lying to them. Thea did the same thing last season, and it was stupid then too.