Spoiler Discussion Thread

[kismet]

For people who know more about this than I, is the fact that the episode description for 4.06 is out, but the rating is TBD, really a sign that it's going to be a sexy episode?  (Sexisode?)  I would appreciate having an O/F love scene I can actually watch.

Ratings with TBD are usual a content review thing either sex or violence are the major ones that hold it up. But like @apinknightmare said it might just be that the reviewers haven't got around to reviewing it yet. But I prefer to think that they are still determining the content rating & editing as little as possible to please the censors which means it will be an explosive show either way. Fingers crossed for a good sex scene, its a little overdue.

[tangerine95]

I think they know and have known since they wrote the flashforward scene.Saying I don't know is just their new way of avoiding giving anything away IMO.Not sure if the whole cast knows who's in the grave,probably not but I think the person who is getting written out and also Stephen know.

[Morrigan2575]

I think they have a list of two.  And I think SA, among others, knows who's on that list.

 

Frankly, my ideal outcome, because Ray will be gone soon, would be for Quentin to die and Laurel to decide to start over in a new city offscreen, or join LoT.  (If I didn't know Ray was leaving I'd want it to be him, because I hate him 1000x more than I hate Laurel and Quentin combined.)

I seriously doubt they told SA, I seriously doubt they told anyone. Firstly, it would be absolutely horrible to tell SA before they told the person being fired. Secondly, telling an actor now about a death that won't be filmed for several months would seriously affect his acting decisions.

[Chaser]

I still can't believe Felicitys hips made it past censors. Lol

I think they got the approval for a death by the network but where given a list of characters they can't touch. Now it's just figuring out who works best.

[kismet]

I think they have a list of two.  And I think SA, among others, knows who's on that list.

 

Frankly, my ideal outcome, because Ray will be gone soon, would be for Quentin to die and Laurel to decide to start over in a new city offscreen, or join LoT.  (If I didn't know Ray was leaving I'd want it to be him, because I hate him 1000x more than I hate Laurel and Quentin combined.) 

Fairly certain their list is a list of 2 and last name Lance is the common denominator. I don't think SA or any cast mates know just yet. I feel like anyone who watches the show with as much diligence as SA does would have a pretty good idea of who is on the list vs. who they might want on the list. I actually do not mind this ploy by the writers or show to get interest & buzz. I thought the flash fwd was a smart writing choice and I'm glad they haven't abused it and done it every episode. That would have been overkill and a cheap writing tactic.

 

As to his is 6ft under, I personally like QL better than LL at this point, so I'm hoping for QL to survive his stupidity with DD. But if its his year to go, I hope they write him out with a good story and some redemptive fanfare. LL being dead would be my ideal, but I could live with her just moving out of town permanently. Either way, I look fwd to the reveal.

[Chaser]

Since Oliver makes jokes now, I want him to comment on Rays shrinkage. In a subtle way the makes Felicity roll her eyes and Diggle snigger.

Both Laurel and Lance are characters that have done some super contradictory things that undermine what we are supposed to believe about them. PB is hands down the better actor and has chemistry with the other players. I would prefer he not be the Lance in the ground.

[statsgirl]

 

Frankly, my ideal outcome, because Ray will be gone soon, would be for Quentin to die and Laurel to decide to start over in a new city offscreen, or join LoT.

If Quentin is killed, I'd expect Laurel to dig in her heels and fight even harder to save her city.  To honour her father and all that.

 

I don't think there's a place for her on LoT, especially if they are going to be jumping back and forth in time.  Central City is a better fit since she's a lawyer and they've got a functioning police force but I don't think it's likely.

 

I don't think we should necessarily rule Roy out or even Thea if they feel the lair is too crowded and want to keep the Black Canary.  Or even Jessica Danforth.  Oliver shed a tear but that could just be misdirection.

Edited October 25, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

If Quentin is killed, I'd expect Laurel to dig in her heels and fight even harder to save her city.  To honour her father and all that.

 

I don't think there's a place for her on LoT, especially if they are going to be jumping back and forth in time.  Central City is a better fit since she's a lawyer and they've got a functioning police force but I don't think it's likely.

I didn't say it WOULD happen; I said it would be MY ideal outcome.

[Sakura12]

There would be no point for Laurel to join LoT with Sara around. If they wanted her on that show they would not have bent over backwards to bring Sara back. They would've just moved Laurel over there. She's Because Comics, so you guys are stuck with her on Arrow. 

[hogwash]

No one from the Lance family has stayed dead (GO, SARA! GO, SARA, GO!!). I demand a sacrifice. I really do think it's one of them though. Probably Quentin. 

[yellowfred]

See, I feel like it's Quentin, just because I think they've run out of storyline for him.  Having him as the antagonist trying to hunt the team down has already gotten old and I'm not sure they could ever really go back to having him as their law enforcement connection (plus, I think Laurel in the DA's office more or less covers that role).  Also, it looks like next week will probably (hopefully) be the end of Oliver trying to get his approval.

Edited October 26, 2015 by yellowfred

[theacostov]

Whilst I think Quentin is the most expendable, the thing I can't get my head around is why Oliver would vow to kill for him. I mean the guy didn't kill Slade, who brutally murdered his mother, but he's going to kill for Quentin? The thought kind of annoys me. 

[Angel12d]

I don't look at it as Oliver vowing to kill for that person specifically, but more like Oliver realizing that his 'find another way' rule of no more killing isn't always going to work. Sometimes the bad guy just needs to die. 

[AyChihuahua]

Whilst I think Quentin is the most expendable, the thing I can't get my head around is why Oliver would vow to kill for him. I mean the guy didn't kill Slade, who brutally murdered his mother, but he's going to kill for Quentin? The thought kind of annoys me. 

Because they massively overstate the whole "I kill for no one" thing.  He killed Cyrus Gold in S2, which is rarely remembered.  He was perfectly happy to kill all the Mirakuru soldiers (and probably did kill some) by exploding them real good, until he suddenly wasn't.  He and Digg and Felicity killed random Russian guys.  IMO, the reason he didn't kill Slade is because the EPs wanted to bring back Slade.  He is totally inconsistent re killing people...really he just dialed it back (which, for the record, I'm fine with...kill bad guys, Oliver, kill 'em good). 

 

Plus, we have the spoiler-ish info that Quentin will suddenly have a bunch of fatherly pride about Oliver running for mayor.  Dumb, totally dumb, entirely dumb, but nevertheless, Oliver has always craved Quentin's forgiveness and approval, so adding the fatherly pride BS and general idea of them getting closer = "I will kill the bad guy who killed my pseudo-ahole-father figure ahole."

[statsgirl]

I think of the 'no kill' rule as being a case of "don't kill unless there is absolutely no other way".  Cyrus Gold and the other mirakuru soldiers were a case of "kill or be killed".  No one should expect Oliver to follow the 'no kill' rule to the extent of being killed himself.  The Russian soldiers got caught in their own petard because if they hadn't stolen Diggle's coat, they wouldn't have got blown up.

 

I can see that if Oliver and Quentin resolve their differences in the next couple of episodes and by 4.06 are working together, Oliver would be that upset at his grave.  But it seems so obvious to me that it is Quentin that I'm hoping for some twist.  How about Raisa?

 

And if Malcolm gets killed by Nyssa, that would leave Digge as the oldest regular member of the cast. Scary.

[jay741982]

When did Felicity kill someone? I don't remember that!

[Genki]

I think the person in the grave is 90% certain and the EPs are just playing with the Audience and Media. IRL I see articles quote marketing people at my company (disclaimer my company is not in the entertainment industry in any way shape or form, but is a part of big multinational), being coy about whether we are bringing products to the local market, saying hasn't be decided, or its still under negotiation, when we have been working towards it for years and it is a total given. So this leads to my scepticism that it hasn't be decided yet. I do believe that the decision could change however.

 

I also think we need someone representing Law enforcement to play off Oliver as Mayor once he is in Office, for me the Police Captain makes more sense than ADA or even DA (if they inexplicably give this role to Laurel). Laurel is already in the lair and in a mask, there is no conflict between her and Team Arrow, as yet. QL can hate the idea of vigilantes, but need them, he has push and pull between himself and Oliver and he can help or hinder the team and Oliver as mayor. So from a Story-line potential QL has more to give than LL IMO.

[Chaser]

I always figured they would make Lance the Commissioner Gordon. 

 

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but they really like Batman. :-)

[bijoux]

 

I can see that if Oliver and Quentin resolve their differences in the next couple of episodes and by 4.06 are working together, Oliver would be that upset at his grave.  But it seems so obvious to me that it is Quentin that I'm hoping for some twist.  How about Raisa?

 

Gasp. What has Raisa ever done to you? You take that back.

[kismet]

Raisa in the grave - that is an out of the box contender. I guess it's possible. Don't know how they'll introduce her back in, but you never know. I wouldn't put my money on that bet.

Personally I would live to see Raisa come back, especially if there is a new Queen mansion to run while the Queens are busy saving & running sc.

[tangerine95]

I think its going to be a major character that dies.You don't hype it this much and make people think its a fan favorite like Felicity and kill off someone minor or someone the audience just met.

Quentin was my first choice but lately I've been thinking that it's as obvious as Felicity dying because of his direct connection to DD.He does still have a unique role on the show as the police connection which is something the show needs.Its more interesting if that connection has a history with Oliver like Quentin does then if they gave it to someone new like I though they might.Also if Quentin dies we are left with a cast of characters of mostly 30 and under years old besides Malcolm and he's a villain.So not so sure about it being Quentin right now.

Laurel is my other guess and it makes so much sense that she would be the one to die,the signs are all there IMO.She got zero promotion,everyone else is getting season long arcs and she still only has Sara,she's expendable since she's a fighter on an overcrowded team with 3 other fighters with more training than her,her BC arc was done in like half a season and there's not much left there that they can do on a show called Arrow,the writers don't seem invested in the character,in interviews they've been saying she will get closure with her sister and in a way with Oliver too,her conflict with Lance was resolved off screen,the storyline with Sara looks like they're trying to make her look as selfish and stupid as possible.

The only reason I'm not sure it would be her is that it feels to good to be true and she's comic canon.

Edited October 26, 2015 by tangerine95

[kismet]

I'm not even sure the comic canon matters all that much. And I'm not sure it will save this LL. It's a valid reason why it won't happen. But it just seems that it might actually happen this season. They could easily kill off LL and then if they wanted to bring back BC a few seasons down the road either FLASH could time warp/AU a BC or LoT could time travel and retrieve the BC.

[tangerine95]

Yeah I don't think being comic canon keeps her safe.It didn't keep Roy safe and they already changed a lot and don't seem invested in comic canon if it doesn't work for the show.

Pretty much the only reason I have to think its no LL is that we have been burned before by the show where she's concerned and that it feels too good to be true lol.Other than that everything points to her IMO.

But I think if they have the guts to kill her off they will be done with BC and just focus on Sara as WC for the Canary character.They already gave Sara most of the BC story anyway.

[Hipkarma]

Last season when I considered there was the possibility of the renegotiation of a contract in play I had hope that LL would be moved off the canvas to save salary dollars and screen time as they work to 'fit' the character in. This year even though many logical signs point to the distinct possibility of LL in the grave, I am both wary and weary. Fool me once Arrow writers...

 

Edited to remove random open quote and clearly state my opinion.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Hipkarma

[Genki]

Not that I have any investment in the comics, but is it a little weird to introduce Sara as the White Canary, who from my Googling the DC Wiki in-depth-reserch seems to have a completely different backstory and cultural heritage and is the enemy of the Black Canary?

 

Get ready for fanfic level Speculation:

 

For me, to make this work, Sara could still be possessed by the Soul of the the real White Canary, even after Constantine does his thing, and the 2 souls could be fighting for dominance of Sara body, but to really make it the White Canary vs the Black Canary, Laurel needs to give up her BC mantle in some way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This brings lots of story opportunities, they could bring Sin back introduce Lady Shiva as an enemy, even bring in Helena. Sara going Back to being the BC, and her being in LOT, opens up way more BC Storylines than keeping Laurel as BC in Arrow, IMO. 

 

If Sara was staying on Arrow, I guess you could have Laurel fighting the possessed Sara/White Canary for her soul.

[Morrigan2575]

I wouldn't read to much into that.  

 

The White Canary appeared in 11 issues of a short-lived BoP run, she's a minor villain with no real name and a minor background.  LoT is basically taking the White Canary mantel and giving it to their original Character (Sara Lance) in order to bring her back.  This is the same show that basically wrote Ted Kord in S3 and called him Ray Palmer (with a few minor tweaks). Same show that turned a Yakuza Assassin named Shado into a Medical Student named Shado;  turned Malcolm Merlyn into the Dark Archer and now Ra's Al Ghul (Dark Archer was Arthur King and Tommy Merlyn post Flashpoint); turned Isabel Rochev into Ravager, etc.

 

Arrow also started the whole mess by introducing an original character called Sara Lance and making her Black Canary in the first place.  so, I don't think there's going to be some huge story of Sara having the comic White Canary's soul or being the enemy of the Black Canary or anything like that.  She's just going to be Sara Lance and take The White Canary mantel because she was reborn (and her sister stole her original title/costume while she was dead).

Edited October 26, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Genki]

Fair enough. 

 

I'm not really that interested in LOT, basically I suspect it will be like the Flash, where I mainly care about how it affects Arrow and mostly OTA. But I do want to know what Sara's starting position and story arc will be for the spin-off.

[tv echo]

IIRC (from reading past posts in this forum), there are no Lances in the current version of GA comics.  So removing both Lances from the show (through death and/or moving away) would still be consistent with "comic canon."  However, I still doubt that they would kill off the BC.

 

Killing Quentin would have the least effect on the ratings.  Killing Felicity or Diggle would seriously affect the ratings.  Killing Thea or Laurel would also affect the ratings - to what extent, I don't know, but they (or their comic counterparts) also have their fanbases.  All my opinion, of course.

Edited October 26, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

Killing Quentin is the easiest route to take if you want to kill a main cast member without rocking the boat too much. I would say there is very little risk involved. Reading PB answers to the grave question, it seems he is resigned to it being Lance. Poor guy. They are finally giving him storyline separate from his daughter.

 

I want the death to be shocking, but I also want to keep watching the show. That limits who I will accept is in the grave.

[AyChihuahua]

I agree that story-wise it makes sense for it to be Laurel in the grave, but I truly do not believe they have the guts to kill BC/boot KC off the show.  And honestly, how many times have these EPs really shocked us?  The only shocking thing I remember in the whole series was Roy NOT dying. 

 

It's Quentin, really.

[Morrigan2575]

IIRC (from reading past posts in this forum), there are no Lances in the current version of GA comics.  So removing both Lances from the show (through death and/or moving away) would still be consistent with "comic canon."  However, I still doubt that they would kill off the BC.

I don't read the Black Canary Solo title but when I was reading BoP, Kurt Lance existed.  He wasn't Larry Lance (who Quentin is modeled on) but Dinah Drake's husband was Kurt Lance. 

Killing Quentin is the easiest route to take if you want to kill a main cast member without rocking the boat too much. I would say there is very little risk involved. Reading PB answers to the grave question, it seems he is resigned to it being Lance. Poor guy. They are finally giving him storyline separate from his daughter.

I want the death to be shocking, but I also want to keep watching the show. That limits who I will accept is in the grave.

 

I disagree, I think PB's answer was classic PB.  It's the same type of answer PB gave last year at D*C when the Arrow Panel was asked how they deal with getting rejected for Roles.  PB gave a very philosophical answer that pretty much matched his philosophy of that What If question.  I think it's just who he is and how he responds to things in life

Edited October 26, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Primal Slayer]

IIRC (from reading past posts in this forum), there are no Lances in the current version of GA comics.  So removing both Lances from the show (through death and/or moving away) would still be consistent with "comic canon."  However, I still doubt that they would kill off the BC.

 

Killing Quentin would have the least effect on the ratings.  Killing Felicity or Diggle would seriously affect the ratings.  Killing Thea or Laurel would also affect the ratings - to what extent, I don't know, but they (or their comic counterparts) also have their fanbases.  All my opinion, of course.

 

Black Canary was never a full time member in the GA comics to begin with. Not to mention that writers have discussed introducing the two characters to each other in TheNew52 but they want to wait before having the two hook up, so while it hasn't happened yet, it will. But 50 years of history easily trumps 5 years. Superman/Lois aren't a couple but that will always end up happening sooner or later.

[dtissagirl]

Not to mention that writers have discussed introducing the two characters to each other in TheNew52 but they want to wait before having the two hook up

 

Do you have a source for this? Was it an interview, or a con panel, or something I can reference? Please? I love comic book BC, but I've always hated the romance, so I like to be prepared. Thanks.

[Primal Slayer]

 One of the creative teams for GA said it in an interview. Ill try to find it.

 

Here is 1 interview from 2012 and I think there are some other recent ones, but the newer creative team did put a BC poster easter egg in one of the recent issues of GA.

http://www.newsarama.com/10513-jeff-lemire-building-new-mythos-for-green-arrow.html

Edited October 26, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[apinknightmare]

Were they talking about doing that before this new iteration of BC and GA? I've only read one issue of each, but I honestly cannot even imagine it, haha.

[tarotx]

The black Canary right now is only a Lance via marriage. (The Web says her husband was resurected). Which means that the Version that our Laurel was named after isn't even born yet. All that history was erased. The married version of DLL and OQ ended divorced(for now). History will probably eventually be wiped again. There is always potential for new timelines with the time travelers and dimension travelers. Which is the reason I'll never understand the cries if being true to the source material when it's comics. It's not like a book with one source material.

Edited October 26, 2015 by tarotx

[Primal Slayer]

The New52 versions. But of course with creative teams constantly changing, plans change all the time.

The black Canary right now is only a Lance via marriage. (The Web says her husband was resurected). Which means that the Version that our Laurel was named after isn't even born yet. All that history was erased. The married version of DLL and Oliver Queen ended divorced(for now since history will probably will eventually be wiped again. There us always potential for new timelinene with the time travelers and dimension travelers. Which is the reason I'll never understand the cries if being true to the source material when it's comucs. It's nit like a book with one source material.

New52 Black Canary is 90% Dinah Laurel Lance. And it is different when the characters have spent majority of their runs together as opposed to 5 years. That's how relationships and certain aspects of characters become iconic, it isn't a one and done deal that people just happen to latch onto for for years upon years.

[dtissagirl]

One of the creative teams for GA said it in an interview. Ill try to find it.

 

Here is 1 interview from 2012 and I think there are some other recent ones, but the newer creative team did put a BC poster easter egg in one of the recent issues of GA.

http://www.newsarama.com/10513-jeff-lemire-building-new-mythos-for-green-arrow.html

 

Thanks. Took to the Comic Book thread.

[tarotx]

Taken to comics...

Edited October 26, 2015 by tarotx

[Velocity23]

[AyChihuahua]

Holy crap on a cracker levels of crazy!

 

If it turns out they've been writing Laurel towards a full psychotic break throughout this terrible storyline, I will actually bow to them.

 

Also, way to keep lying, Laurel!

Edited October 26, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

Laurel "we don't keep secrets" Lance, lmao.

[Sakura12]

So much for not keeping secrets anymore, Laurel. 

 

I love how she thinks Sara just needs a few more days after being brought back from the dead with magic. It doesn't even occur to her that she brought back something else. 

 

Now I really hope Constantine rips into her for messing around with magic she doesn't understand. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by Sakura12

[looptab]

Run, Thea, Run!

[AyChihuahua]

She crazy!

[Sakura12]

I suppose Laurel being angry, entitled and delusional are consistent character traits. 

 

Also where exactly is she chaining Sara up? And some caring sister she is, she still hasn't changed Sara's clothes. Or given her a jacket or something. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by Sakura12

[hogwash]

What's wrong with her?? This is so bizarre?? 

[apinknightmare]

One thing that makes me happy is that no one seems to know where they are, so 5 points for the new lair already.

[AyChihuahua]

What's wrong with her?? This is so bizarre?? 

It's becoming really disturbing.  And look at her emotional quick-change in the third-from-last to last panel.  Emotional lability, i.e., SHE CRAZY! 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Imagine that...Laurel is crossing her arms in the comic preview.  It's one of those things that once you notice it, you can never unnotice it.  Ahhh!!!