Spoiler Discussion Thread

[kismet]

 

Please be saying, "Um...hell no."

It sorta reminds me of the wedding scene in Ever After, minus the crying (thank goodness) and we all know how that one turned out.

[nksarmi]

1. They look like they keep changing chain gang partners in those pics.  In one, it looks like Felicity is paired with Diggle and in another it looks like she is paired with Ray.

 

2. It doesn't look like Malcolm is being chained up with the others....so...

 

My hope for Malcolm as a villain lives!!!!

[DrSpaceman10]

I think this is the first episode since Season One that I'm going to skip. But on the plus side I can't wait to read this forum's snark. 

[nksarmi]

As Tatsu is dressed like Katana here, I feel like Maseo is going to die, although my only basis for that is comics! so I won't put too much weight on that theory. Still, I wouldn't be surprised.

If he isn't an Argus agent or helping Oliver be not!brainwashed and has just bought into this whole LoA thing and drunk the cool-aid and all that - I kind of hope he does die. I've liked him a lot this season in the flashbacks, but Tatsu/Katana is awesome and deserves better if he has sold out.

[apinknightmare]

2. It doesn't look like Malcolm is being chained up with the others....so...

 

My hope for Malcolm as a villain lives!!!!

 

Oliver, Maseo or Ra's better come and let him out. I WANT IT

[quarks]

I see we have now hit the really kinky episode of the season.  Bring it on, show. bring it on.

 

:: rubs hands ::

[lemotomato]

In the episode stills for 3x22, Felicity is wearing the outfit (gray jacket, sparkly white top) EBR had on when she was signing PB's tshirt. But her makeup looks normal, not like what she had on in the clip PB posted. So maybe there's a reason for that heavy makeup after all?

Edited April 30, 2015 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

I wonder if the touching moment Felicity and Ray have when they are in chains.  Just for fun, I'm trying to think of how the show could possibly make all this worse.

 

 

They have somehow managed to make Katrina Law look overweight.  Hey, maybe Nyssa is pregnant already!  Amazing things happen in Nanda Parbat.

 

I think there will be an increase of fanfics of Felicity in chains and Al Sah-Him.

That might be the only good thing coming out of this episode.  But that, like the forced marriage, was something that interested me more when I was going through adolescence.

Edited April 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[Danny Franks]

So Ra's al Ghul seems more like a guy who wants to play house with his living, breathing action figures. This is such a weird idea for a storyline (yes, it's ripped off from a 30 year old Batman story), and I can't figure out who on earth thought it would be a good idea. Presumably Ra's picked the wedding outfits and the music and sent out the invitations, and I wonder how long he agonised over the seating plan at the reception.

 

Just... bizarre.

 

Anyway, it sounds like the last episode was more of pure writing for plot. Everyone just decides Oliver is gone forever and will never recover his old personality, based on him being an asshole after three weeks of solid brainwashing? Wow. Those are some solid friends he's got there. The guy is so lucky! Have they not even considered the go-to cure for brainwashing of whacking him really hard on the head, or grabbing him and forcing him to go cold turkey? Hey, here's a thought, remember that superfast guy that you know? As per usual, every problem that you're suffering from could be solved by asking him to take an hour out of his day to run to Starling, grab Oliver and tie him up so securely he can't move. 

 

But you can't do that because plot, dumb, reasons. What the hell ever. Even dumber when you take into account that Ra's Ollie Ghul is apparently going to be on The Flash, helping to take out Wheelchair Doc. And why is he helping do that? Has Ra's also developed 'shipper obsessions with Barry and Iris, and figures sending guys out to ensure Barry beats the bad guys is the best way of making that relationship happen as well? I wonder what his tumblr username is.

[AyChihuahua]

Malcolm is there in chains, he's just hidden behind Laurel.  You can see his legs, though.

 

Not one thing in those pictures makes me have any interest in watching, and in fact makes me have a lot of interest in avoiding seeing so much as a commercial accidentally.

 

Re Felicity being in heavy makeup...either this has nothing to do with her or he briefly hallucinates her.  It means nothing.  Oliver is marrying Nyssa.  Thank God the US wouldn't recognize that marriage, although it could be funny for Nyssa to show up in S4 and snarkily call Oliver "Husband."

[SleepDeprived]

Is there any sort of significance for the sword arch? Is that just an honoring the bride thing? 'Cause usually its both the bride and groom that get the sword arch, right, like a blessing the union/honoring the bride and groom kind of thing? But none of the LoAers gathered, as far as the promos show, draw their swords for Oliver, only for Nyssa. Perhaps, Nyssa has more people in the LoA who support her than she thinks and the surprise attack of the LoA dissenters is how this wedding concludes... Cut quickly to Thea and Roy happily married at the courthouse after. Yay!

[Belinea]

Didn't MG say somewhere they were not sure whether the marriage would last into season 4?

 

To be fair it is not like he can say: "Don't worry we won't actually have the marriage last for more then 1 episode".  I seriously, seriously hope it won't last because I truly do believe they think it is a good storyline that makes sense.

Apparently he said that viewers might not be able to handle the truth which is just such a great thing to say to get viewers on board with a story. "You won't be able to handle. But don't worry we don't need you to watch."

[AyChihuahua]

I think Guggie responded to me tweeting that he's a homophobic talentless hack who never had an idea that didn't come from Batman.  

[Starfish35]

In the episode stills for 3x22, Felicity is wearing the outfit (gray jacket, sparkly white top) EBR had on when she was signing PB's tshirt. But her makeup looks normal, not like what she had on in the clip PB posted. So maybe there's a reason for that heavy makeup after all?

I thought that pic was from 3x23? Was it not?

[chaos is welcome]

 

"The ceremony actually finishes. It does reach a conclusion.”

Why do I get the impression the choice of the article "A" is significant.  Maybe I'm just being stupid.

 

That look between Oliver in Felicity in the promo photos--that's an old Oliver wistful look if ever I've seen one. 

[statsgirl]

MG said that there is a wedding and a marriage so unless the wedding is O/N and the marriage is Roy/Thea, we're stuck with Oliver being married to Nyssa.

[Chaser]

Is that the Arrow Hood Felicity is wearing? 

 

Because I want that.

[wonderwall]

Is that the Arrow Hood Felicity is wearing?

Because I want that.

Lol if only. No it seems as though it's just a hoodie.

[TanyaKay]

 

Does it not look like that Felicity is trying really hard to appeal to Oliver's good nature but he is in his Al Sah-him mode?

[catrox14]

 

-- Asked if Oliver will ever put on his suit again, MG says: "Nope."

 

Wait, what? Does he mean his Arrow suit or a dress suit or what???

[Guest]

Looking at the pictures, it does feel convenient that all of the city's heroes are now locked up in NP. I wonder what happens to make them travel to NP. If it's Malcolm then I absolutely believe it's a trap. It just depends on whether he's helping Oliver or working with Ra's.

[catrox14]

I still do not understand how Laurel even walks in that costume. 

Okay...Slade is still in ARGUS prison , right?

Okay...Slade is still in ARGUS prison , right?

[apinknightmare]

I wonder what happens to make them travel to NP. 

 

If I had to take a guess, Malcolm or Tatsu tell them about the virus and Ra's plans for it.

[Guest]

If I had to take a guess, Malcolm or Tatsu tell them about the virus and Ra's plans for it.

 

But the question is, how do they know? I swear Malcolm has to be at the back of this somehow. If he's not working for Ra's, he's probably working for Damien Darhk and he'll go back to being a villain in s4.

[apinknightmare]

But the question is, how do they know? I swear Malcolm has to be at the back of this somehow. If he's not working for Ra's, he's probably working for Damien Darhk and he'll go back to being a villain in s4.

 

Well, argument for Malcolm being terrible: it's a trick, and he plans to trap them - whether he's working for Ra's or Damien Darhk, who knows. Argument for Malcolm not being terrible: he said he had League contacts, so they told him. Whether the League contact is good or bad, who knows. 

 

As for Tatsu, there's still some Maseo in Sarab and he's been through this before. He lost his son to this virus, and I have to think the better part of him would be appalled if he found out Ra's planned to unleash it again. So, since we know he has contact with her, he could tell her. He could also be Malcolm's contact. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Jessie2009]

So based on the Canadian promo, I'm not sure if Oliver is brainwashed anymore. Maybe it didn't take completely? or maybe he is and just parts of Oliver are coming out? IDK. It shows Oliver talking to someone saying, "we need help" and something about knowing someone that can help and then it shows Tatsu showing up. When he's talking, he sounds like regular Oliver to me. It also shows Felicity telling Oliver that if he's going to do something this is the time, and the stuff about how they trusted him and believed him. Maybe he's not brainwashed anymore, but he doesn't want to risk the league finding out yet until they've got more of a plan to take out Ra's?? IDK

[Starfish35]

Yeah, that kind of sounds like Oliver is the one who sends Tatsu to TA.

I am very confused.

So.....wild speculation warning!

Oliver is actually faking, and has a plan! So he sends a message to Tatsu through someone to get Team Arrow and bring them to NP to help him. Only once they get there, SURPRISE! it was a trap! (Why?) Oliver really was brainwashed! TA is in mortal danger! Only SHOCK! SURPRISE! At the very end of the episode, we find out it's all a huge con by Oliver to take down Ra's. It was a double double cross. Ensue hurt feelings, broken trust, etc etc.

I don't know. I'm just wild guessing. If Oliver is really faking all this though, I really don't know how to explain how close he came to killing Diggle and Nyssa.

Also, this totally throws out the theory that Felicity will be the one to break through the brainwashing, if there actually IS no brainwashing.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[catrox14]

I think he might be locking them up to keep them safe if the attack cannot be stopped and then he'll have TA and Tin Man to rebuild the city after he takes down the LoA.  That's my spec.

[jay741982]

So based on the Canadian promo, I'm not sure if Oliver is brainwashed anymore. Maybe it didn't take completely? or maybe he is and just parts of Oliver are coming out? IDK. It shows Oliver talking to someone saying, "we need help" and something about knowing someone that can help and then it shows Tatsu showing up. When he's talking, he sounds like regular Oliver to me. It also shows Felicity telling Oliver that if he's going to do something this is the time, and the stuff about how they trusted him and believed him. Maybe he's not brainwashed anymore, but he doesn't want to risk the league finding out yet until they've got more of a plan to take out Ra's?? IDK

My problem is why does Laurel and Felicity say what they say to Oliver like that? God I just not all of Team Arrow pissed at him at end of season! Why would MG do that? Does he want people to stop watching? I want all LEAST him and Felicity together and him and Thea on better terms

[Chaser]

We have a shot of Tatsu going to Felicity about fighting for Oliver and then Tatsu going to everyone saving the city. That seems odd, a bit redundant. Maybe Felicity goes to the others after and then Tatsu shows up to help convince them?

 

At first I thought Oliver was talking to Maseo about needing help, but maybe he is talking to Malcolm given that Malcolm comes to them with an offer or something. How Malcolm connects with Tatsu, I don't know. Or it is Maseo and Malcolm hi-jacks the plan for his own evil-doing.

 

Someone on Tumblr mentioned that Laurel and Felicity may be staging the yelling. It does seem a bit heavy handed. Not so much from Felicity, but Laurel was really not in the 'believe in Oliver' camp. I can picture her as more of a 'you're such a bastard Oliver' type. 

 

Nothing on the wedding in the promo. Still think the wedding is a fake out. You can't say the wedding is shocking and surprising and then release a whole spread on it; kinda defeats the shock value. 

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure the wedding itself was supposed to be shocking and surprising, was it? I thought Ra's forcing them to marry was supposed to be the shock related to the wedding, and we're already past that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression (even before this promo came out) that the surprises in this episode aren't really going to have anything to do with the wedding.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[DrSpaceman10]

I think Oliver/Nyssa will end up getting married and Oliver will appear to have betrayed TA, just so it looks like Oliver has gone full-on evil. Then at the end of the episode it'll be revealed the Oliver's faking and this is all part of his plan.

[jay741982]

We have a shot of Tatsu going to Felicity about fighting for Oliver and then Tatsu going to everyone saving the city. That seems odd, a bit redundant. Maybe Felicity goes to the others after and then Tatsu shows up to help convince them?

 

At first I thought Oliver was talking to Maseo about needing help, but maybe he is talking to Malcolm given that Malcolm comes to them with an offer or something. How Malcolm connects with Tatsu, I don't know. Or it is Maseo and Malcolm hi-jacks the plan for his own evil-doing.

 

Someone on Tumblr mentioned that Laurel and Felicity may be staging the yelling. It does seem a bit heavy handed. Not so much from Felicity, but Laurel was really not in the 'believe in Oliver' camp. I can picture her as more of a 'you're such a bastard Oliver' type. 

 

Nothing on the wedding in the promo. Still think the wedding is a fake out. You can't say the wedding is shocking and surprising and then release a whole spread on it; kinda defeats the shock value.

The yelling sounded like they were hurt from his actions unless what we don't see yet is may be Oliver at the very least whispers to Felicity to "Make it believeable"

[Starfish35]

I think Oliver/Nyssa will end up getting married and Oliver will appear to have betrayed TA, just so it looks like Oliver has gone full-on evil. Then at the end of the episode it'll be revealed the Oliver's faking and this is all part of his plan.

I agree. People are counting on there being some sort of twist to the wedding, but the twist might be that it really actually happens.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

I read a review where the writer speculated that DD is Felicity's father. Is there anything that really supports that other then Felicity' father being really smart and DD being really smart?

[DrSpaceman10]

At this point I don't see the EPs being able to get out of this corner they've written themselves into without major damage to Oliver, Team Arrow and the show in general. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by DrSpaceman10

[kismet]

I see we have now hit the really kinky episode of the season.  Bring it on, show. bring it on.

 

:: rubs hands ::

Are you referring to the chains?? Because I seriously think they LoA should really give up the killing and go into romantic destination for couples with special rooms for every taste :)

[kismet]

The we trusted you yelling does sound a little overdramatic. Similar to "but he was my man" in s1. So it could be an act if Oliver is able to talk to them about an portion of his secret plan. Or maybe everyone is playing a con on everyone.

 

Still think Malcolm is evil and is playing TA (even if this mission is not part of the con). Believe that he will be linked to Damien Darhk.

 

Don't think FS's father will be Damien Darhk, that's a little too much for the writers to connect her that closely to the main villain. Especially now that they have established him as a horseman? with Ras. I do believe though that he will be very high up in whatever HIVE (& possibly Bratva) stories they have cooking for s4. But then again, if there is an overall 6 yr plan for Arrow - it might be the right time to connect her paternity to a big bad, esp now that they have played through all the other parents as baddies. So it could go either way at this point IMO. He's smart & he's got some pretty intense loyalities/responsibilities outside of his family to have abandoned them.

[TrueMyth]

Maybe that can be Oliver's rebranding of the LoA once he is Ra's!! Felicity can build their website and online booking system and advise on creation of Vegas style quickie divorce and marriage set ups. Cuz they need quickie divorce set ups.

[Belinea]

Is anyone else exhausted by all this? I seriously don't feel excited about anything but exhausted and anxious. How much worse can it get before it is finally over? At this point I am glad once this season of anger, mistrust and pain is finally over. The only thing I am still curious about is how they are gonna resolve all this mess. Nobody will come out of it looking better. Well, nobody but Diggle probably. 

 

As for Felicity's father. At this point I think it won't be some minor character. That is not how these writers work. Felicity's father will probably be someone epic and the revelation of his identity will be another game changer. Can't you just see the headline....

[Password]

Let's play word association:

Arrow

anger, mistrust and pain

[tv echo]

3x22 is the episode that is supposed to have "the most insane cliffhanger we've ever done".  So what could that be?

 

jellyornah asked:
will Oliver ever put on his suit again?

Nope.

I was puzzled by this response as well.  It's ambiguous.  We know the Arrow suit was confiscated by the SCPD since Roy was wearing it when he was arrested.  Oliver will probably be wearing his LOA outfit for the rest of this season, until/unless he discards it for regular clothes in 3x23.  So if he returns to being the Arrow next season, maybe he'll get a brand new Arrow costume.

Edited May 1, 2015 by tv echo

[Jillibean]

My idle speculation based on the previews is that Oliver will let the Al Sahim personality drop a bit with TA--either genuinely or as a trick, not sure--and then ends up locking them up, leading to the yelling by Felicity and Laurel. It obviously makes no sense for them to "trust" Al Sahim, so he must have given them something to work with, then gone back to being stone-faced as he jailed them. However, there are clearly a number of valid reasons that non-brainwashed Oliver might actually want TA locked up in NP, so I think there are a number of different ways the story could go.

 

I feel like the pacing has been really off this season. A lot happened in the last episode, and a lot seems like it will have to happen in this episode, and then there's only one episode left to resolve these huge issues that really were only just created in the last 2 to 3 episodes. All after a majority of a season where it felt like very little happened. I don't like this storyline, but if they were going to go for it, they should have paced it better. The three-episode reign of Al Sahim feels really crowded, and I have no idea how they're going to satisfyingly resolve all of this in two episodes while hitting all the emotional beats they would need to in order for it to be worthwhile. 

 

I am also leaning toward Oliver and Nyssa actually marrying (sigh), but I cannot for the life of me figure out how this will advance the plot in any way. It seems like a completely offensive and useless wrench to throw in the plans, and I can't imagine how they're going to go anywhere interesting with it. 

[apinknightmare]

I've now convinced myself that Oliver and Nyssa are going to actually marry, ugh. I didn't think the wedding was supposed to be "shocking," but I had hoped that it would get interrupted and they'd surprise us with another wedding. 

 

Anyway, terrible bitch alert: I don't think anything Oliver's done has been so awful that it would be bad if he was faking. If the drugs are having an effect on him, then at the beginning when he saw Diggle, he might have known that wasn't Diggle. He'd been being drugged for 3 weeks - surely that wasn't his first hallucination. Maybe he didn't know who it really was, but he could kill the whole League of Assassins if it made Ra's believe he was brainwashed and allowed him to carry out whatever plan to neutralize the LoA and I wouldn't hold it against him or think he'd regressed. I feel the same way about Nyssa, sorry to say. Not that I think he wouldn't have been upset by having to do it, and I'm not saying it's right, but dude's in deep now - he has no choice but to go with it. If he refused him, Ra's would surely kill him, and then who even knows what he'd do to the people Oliver loves for retribution. I'm actually not sure he was going to kill Diggle in that fight in that warehouse or whatever. And I wrote yesterday that I don't think he did anything terrible with the kidnapping either - it was honestly the most boring kidnapping I've ever seen.

 

Anyway, I'm on the faking train now, because I don't see any reason why Oliver would be faking being himself to whoever he was talking to when he said "we need help," (Maseo or Malcolm) unless Ra's thinks there's a traitor in their midst and is trying to get Oliver to suss him out. That traitor would obviously be Maseo.

 

The scenario I prefer to believe is that he's faking and planning something with Malcolm, sends Tatsu to back up what Malcolm's saying about the virus. I really want Malcolm to turn in that instance and have it be real, but I'm having difficulty understanding how Malcolm would get out if he was working for Darhk (unless Darhk had another LoA double agent), because who on the LoA would release him unless they were working for Darhk too? And if Malcolm is working for Ra's and he knows Oliver isn't really brainwashed, why wouldn't he tell Ra's that? Maybe he does, but...IDK. I hope them yelling "we trusted you!" at Oliver is part of a ruse, goodness.

 

This whole thing is making my brain hurt. I want this season to be over so I can stop trying to figure it out because like Felicity, I hate mysteries. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Soulfire]

I am also leaning toward Oliver and Nyssa actually marrying (sigh), but I cannot for the life of me figure out how this will advance the plot in any way. It seems like a completely offensive and useless wrench to throw in the plans, and I can't imagine how they're going to go anywhere interesting with it. 

 

I've been struggling to find a narrative purpose for this marriage, including how it advances the plot in any way, but have pretty much resigned myself to believe it's MG et al's way of showing us just how evil Ra's is. Look, how evil he is! He's so EVIL he has no moral scruples about marrying off his gay daughter with her dead ex-girlfriend's ex, who, by the way, has been given the title of her birthright by that same evil evil father.

 

Still baffled by them promoting a wedding that a good chunk of the fandom, to put it mildly, strongly dislikes. I thought you were supposed to be excited tuning in for the last episodes of the season -- not dread them.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Soulfire

[tv echo]

I'm going with partly brainwashed (due to magic herbs) and partly faking it.  I'm still going with Maseo being an undercover ARGUS agent.  After Akio died, Maseo became determined to wipe out the virus and volunteered for the likely suicide mission of infiltrating the LOA.  Tatsu was opposed to the suicide mission, which caused problems in their relationship, but is still in contact with him.  Next week's scene of Oliver saying "we need help" is a flashback to the 3 weeks before 3x21.  Maybe Maseo confided his mission to Oliver then.

 

Oliver used to be an assassin so killing is not new to him.  In order to save Starling City, he was willing to kill a random LOA guy and even Nyssa.  He may view all LOA members as bad guys.  I don't think he would've killed Diggle.  If an ARGUS agent knows how to fake-kill someone (like what happened to Roy), then I'm sure the LOA knows how as well.  Maseo could've told Oliver how to fake-kill, if necessary.  So if Thea hadn't stopped him, he might've fake-killed Diggle.  Still he does enough bad things that the issue of whether he's still redeemable and can still be a hero becomes a legitimate question.

 

I'm also still leaning towards the theory that Ra's deliberately didn't stab Oliver through the heart because he wanted this young healthy guy to survive, fulfill the prophecy, and be manipulated into marrying his daughter - thus preserving his bloodline in the new Ra's, rather than letting an unrelated LOA member become the new Ra's.  Before, he was okay with Nyssa being his Heir because he assumed she would marry and have children.  Her serious relationship with Sara threatened that plan (because the LOA is old-fashioned, patriarchal, and apparently has no modern technology).

Edited May 1, 2015 by tv echo

[nksarmi]

I'm tell you people... Oliver is working for/with Argus/Waller, Malcolm is working for/with Ra's or Darhk, Roy and Thea are going to elope, and the "surprise" is that with the last two episodes, the entire season is going to make sense!

[apinknightmare]

I'm also still leaning towards the theory that Ra's deliberately didn't stab Oliver through the heart because he wanted this young healthy guy to survive, fulfill the prophecy, and be manipulated into marrying his daughter - thus preserving his bloodline in the new Ra's, rather than letting an unrelated LOA member become the new Ra's.  Before, he was okay with Nyssa being his Heir because he assumed she would marry and have children.  Her serious relationship with Sara threatened that plan (because the LOA is old-fashioned, patriarchal, and apparently has no modern technology).

 

I still don't understand how this "next Ra's" thing works. Was it explained somewhere and I missed it? Because Ra's said in the last ep that there was a choice between him and Damien Darhk, and he was chosen. Did they both nearly die by that Ra's sword? If so, that Ra's was a shitty swordsman and/or strategist too. This is why the heir thing is so stupid, since HE wasn't a blood heir and neither is Oliver, and the non-blood heir is preferable to his actual blood heir if this is all straight-up no BTS plan going on with regards to Oliver, so why does he give a shit if Nyssa has children to pass the title to?

 

I really need to stop trying to make sense. 

 

And I like your theory about that conversation with Oliver being a flashback, maybe getting things into motion before he starts being indoctrinated. 

[tv echo]

I believe that the new Ra's is usually chosen by challenge duel (whoever beats Ra's becomes Ra's).  Ra's beat Dahrk to become the next Ra's, but in his weakness let Dahrk live.  When R'as said that he was "chosen", he could've been speaking poetically - like chosen by fate when he won his duel with Dahrk. 

 

So the usual method is for an unrelated person to become Ra's.  The prophecy just existed apart from that.  Ra's used it to get around the usual succession method because he wanted his bloodline to continue in the next Ra's.

 

Or maybe Ra's really could've just picked Oliver as his successor, but wanted him to marry Nyssa to make him more acceptable to the LOA.

Edited May 1, 2015 by tv echo

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Bwahahahahahahha Buckles looks even more ridiculous in daylight. The outfit isn't a good fashion statement nor does it add to her fighting. It is a bad episode of America's Next Top Vigilante.