Spoiler Discussion Thread

[HighwayFlower]

Do we know why Sara was walking in the preview? I don't see much about that.

[Morrigan2575]

Do we know why Sara was walking in the preview? I don't see much about that.

She's not in the episode. Not sure if she's in 321 or something. The CW has been doing that lately they had the branding from 320in the promo for 319

[Velocity23]

So finally a confirmation that Akio is dead.

[statsgirl]

I just lowered my expectations. The episode is written by Wendy Merickle (Time of Death & others) and Oscar B. who is the script co-ordinator and this is the first one he's had produced.  Let's hope his writing is better than his script co-ordinating because there have been too many holes in this show. Also a new director to Arrow.  Suddenly I understand why it's not in the sweeps month.

 

Maseo seems totally LoA brainwashed in that clip. No wonder Tatsu is worried.

 

Yeah, you know, I can already say that I'm basically going to be flying so high tonight that afterward, I won't really care how it all went down. But now, while I'm still semi-rational, I will say that having four people (so far) tell Felicity that she loves Oliver before she finally brings herself to say it is NOT IDEAL.

But we've also heard Felicity herself say that she loves Oliver, indirectly granted but this is not new information to her.  She told Barry about the "quiet dreams" and she told Oliver when he got back from the duel that she'd had fantasies that he could come back and they'd be together, and she told him that the only reason they're not together is on him.  That's pretty clearly indicated what Felicity's feelings are, and I can see why she didn't say I love you back to Oliver yet because they're not together.  If there are any abandonment issues, she's protecting herself from putting it all out there to the guy who still won't be with her..

 

I'll see what her reason for not saying it is (probably plot) but I don't mind that Ray is the one who breaks up because Felicity knows she loves Oliver but she's trying to move on and have a full life even if Oliver won't be with her.   She's also someone who has never given up on someone she's cared about, no matter what they've done (like Cooper in jail)  so I don't see her giving up on her relationship with Ray because Ray is, after all, a good guy.  If arranged marriages can make it, so can she.

 

I think what it's going to take is Oliver finally stopping the shutting her out and he lets her in, and then she'll say it. At least, I hope that's the scenario.

 

So Ra's disinherited Nyssa as his Heir.  He maybe also denied Nyssa's request to use the LP to save Sara (I'm fanwanking).  But now the LOA is going after Nyssa?  That makes no sense - unless it's a pre-emptive strike (or it's for unauthorized training of a non-member).

This is so much WTF for me.  Not only does Ra's disinherit her from what she's been preparing for all her life in favor of an outsider he has to force into the position, he now going after Nyssa?  Unless she's arranging a revolt, the show's misogyny is showing.

 

And if he's worried about various LoA member over-throwing him and Oliver to put the ring on her finger, maybe he needs to re-think his recent decisions.

[Morrigan2575]

On another subject, what is the likelihood of Ra's using the Lazarus Pit on Oliver?  It changes you "In your soul".  This might explain why Oliver might succumb to Ra's orders and becomes Evil!Oliver.  It could also relate to Lazarus Pitting having ongoing repercussions into S4 and not just with Thea.  Oliver seems strong minded enough to be able to resist casual brainwashing.    

You know I was saying brainwashing using drugs like MM did with Thea (or something similar) but they could totally do this.  In the Comics Nyssa brainwashes Talia to turn on Ra's by repeatedly killing and resurrecting her in a LP.  

[wonderwall]

Ugh... Wendy Mericle wrote this? My expectations severely dropped. She's just not a good writer.

As for Ray breaking up with Felicity... I sort of expected that. If he were dumped he wouldn't really be a viable love interest on the new show I guess? All I know is that felicity knows how she feels and she knows she can't fake it forever which is why she doesn't really fight for Ray.

I hope that the episode plays well... I really really do. I don't know why they saved the Breakup and hookup for the same episode because it probably doesn't reflect well on felicity for a lot of people... But yeah. Wendy Mericle. Dammit.

[apinknightmare]

You know I was saying brainwashing using drugs like MM did with Thea (or something similar) but they could totally do this.  In the Comics Nyssa brainwashes Talia to turn on Ra's by repeatedly killing and resurrecting her in a LP.  

 

The drugs are a definite possibility, I mean, Malcolm had to learn about them somehow, and Maseo doesn't seem at all like his old self. Does Ra's put them in the food for some kind of mass mind control? Although, that can't be it, because Sara seemed to remember very clearly everything she's done so...I don't know.

 

If Ra's is using the pit to brainwash Oliver, then I'd like for this ep to end on a WTF note with Ra's running him through again and then dropping him in the water. 

 

Also, because it would make more sense to me and I want to be right, I would also like it if Ra's revealed that he doesn't want Oliver to be his heir before he does it and that he's been playing him all along. Why he would send him after Nyssa at that point though, IDK.

[SleepDeprived]

You know I was saying brainwashing using drugs like MM did with Thea (or something similar) but they could totally do this.  In the Comics Nyssa brainwashes Talia to turn on Ra's by repeatedly killing and resurrecting her in a LP.  

 

But if Ra's will be using the LP repeatedly to brainwash Oliver, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of branding him? Since the branding wound/scar will just get healed in the waters, anyway (along with all of Oliver's other scars, presumably). Unless they do the branding after the repeated dips in the LP and the brainwashing had been completed.

 

Perhaps, whatever agent Ra's is using to brainwash Oliver is actually laced into the Arrow branding iron and will get seared into Oliver's skin/system at the same time?

[SonofaBiscuit]

Even if the writing is complete shit, I'm still very hopeful because SA and EBR have scorching chemistry that can probably save even some of the worst dialogue.  

[apinknightmare]

But if Ra's will be using the LP repeatedly to brainwash Oliver, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of branding him? Since the branding wound/scar will just get healed in the waters, anyway (along with all of Oliver's other scars, presumably). Unless they do the branding after the repeated dips in the LP and the brainwashing had been completed.

 

Perhaps, whatever agent Ra's is using to brainwash Oliver is actually laced into the Arrow branding iron and will get seared into Oliver's skin/system at the same time?

 

Seems to me like there might be a ceremonial initiation that people witness, and maybe the branding is a thing that happens to all the members, so it would be suspicious if Oliver didn't go through it? Maybe the fact that he's gonna be dunked and brainwashed is something Ra's wants to keep a secret, so he goes through the regular initiation motions?

[looptab]

You know nothing, John Sn---eh-Diggle!

Anyways, fuuuudge Maseo don't make me cry :((

[SleepDeprived]

Seems to me like there might be a ceremonial initiation that people witness, and maybe the branding is a thing that happens to all the members, so it would be suspicious if Oliver didn't go through it? Maybe the fact that he's gonna be dunked and brainwashed is something Ra's wants to keep a secret, so he goes through the regular initiation motions?

 

Maybe. If that's the case, Ra's sure is going through an awful lot of trouble just to make Oliver his heir, though, that he'd be so willing to deceive his own people and put up appearances like that. After all that, I would expect the show is going to tell me why Ra's is so desperate to get Oliver as his heir but that seems to be asking the show writers for too much sense.

 

I actually thought the branding is special to the Heir to the Demon. I don't think we saw any branding scars on Sara of a canary-like figure or anything but the writers probably just thought this up, recently, anyway. So, does that mean the LoA makes different kinds of branding irons for every member each time? And, also, where is Oliver getting branded? The trajectory of the branding iron, from the promo, seemed to be somewhere low on his back but his lower back is already full of burn scars. On top of the burn scars? His butt, maybe? Is that why SA posted a photo that one time of a box with the label "butt pads" on them? Is the CW allowed to show ass shots? I'll be very amused if the brand ends up on his butt, though.

[wonderwall]

Also a new director to Arrow.  Suddenly I understand why it's not in the sweeps month.

 

He directed The 100, which is quite great, so I'm not worried about Antonio Negret. More worried about Oscar Balderama and Wendy Mericle... Hopefully the acting will overcome the bad writing. But with what the press have been saying about the episode (and it's been getting a bit of praise, especially EBR), I'm hopeful that it'll be a solid episode. But I'm still going to keep my expectations low. 

[apinknightmare]

Maybe. If that's the case, Ra's sure is going through an awful lot of trouble just to make Oliver his heir, though, that he'd be so willing to deceive his own people and put up appearances like that. After all that, I would expect the show is going to tell me why Ra's is so desperate to get Oliver as his heir but that seems to be asking the show writers for too much sense.

 

I'm kind of hoping that Oliver's getting played by Ra's and that ultimately Ra's doesn't want Oliver as his heir. It's too much to hope though. Too much to hope.

[Morrigan2575]

And, also, where is Oliver getting branded? The trajectory of the branding iron, from the promo, seemed to be somewhere low on his back but his lower back is already full of burn scars. On top of the burn scars?

The LoA gave Oliver a Tramp Stamp LOL Edited April 22, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[SonofaBiscuit]

And, also, where is Oliver getting branded? The trajectory of the branding iron, from the promo, seemed to be somewhere low on his back but his lower back is already full of burn scars. On top of the burn scars? His butt, maybe? Is that why SA posted a photo that one time of a box with the label "butt pads" on them? Is the CW allowed to show ass shots? I'll be very amused if the brand ends up on his butt, though.

 

 

Haha, I'm gonna go with "no."  Should be yes...but probably no.

[jay741982]

Haha, I'm gonna go with "no."  Should be yes...but probably no.

We are getting a steamy love scene tonight as been told by reviewers. I'd like to see an ass shot of EBR but this ain't HBO lol

[statsgirl]

Re the branding:  maybe the wounds heal in the LP but the scar remains.

 

MG said at some point that we would find out why Waller wanted Oliver so much in Hong Kong, and now Ra's is desperate to have Oliver replace him in the League in spite of the fact that he doesn't know any of their traditions, doesn't want to kill and really doesn't want the job.  I really want to know what makes Oliver such a special snowflake that everyone wants him so much because my eyes hurt from rolling so much..

[Sunshine]

By the end of the season, there’s a nice bit of closure between Malcolm and Thea,” promises Guggenheim. “You feel like their story has had a beginning, middle and end.” (Source in spoiler thread).

 

That is an interesting statement.  Are we sure JB is back in S4?

Edited April 22, 2015 by Sunshine

[apinknightmare]

Here's hoping Malcolm dies. For real this time.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Felicity is going through seven stages of grief over Oliver again? Ugh! Give the girl a freakin' break.

[Morrigan2575]

By the end of the season, there’s a nice bit of closure between Malcolm and Thea,” promises Guggenheim. “You feel like their story has had a beginning, middle and end.” (Source in spoiler thread).

 

That is an interesting statement.  Are we sure JB is back in S4?

JB said he's back but he could be trolling. Who knows they seem to love JB so much maybe they'll keep MM and get rid of Thea.

[wonderwall]

Felicity is going through seven stages of grief over Oliver again? Ugh! Give the girl a freakin' break.

Where does it say that? :( I AM NOT A FAN OF THIS. Even though I'm sure EBR would hit it out of the park (I mean her performance in 310 was pretty great)

[apinknightmare]

Where does it say that? :( I AM NOT A FAN OF THIS. Even though I'm sure EBR would hit it out of the park (I mean her performance in 310 was pretty great)

 

I think MG said it in some interview - that she'd be grieving in 3x21, but I think it was in the context of the rest of the team dealing with Oliver being gone too.

[jay741982]

Where does it say that? :( I AM NOT A FAN OF THIS. Even though I'm sure EBR would hit it out of the park (I mean her performance in 310 was pretty great)

It's in the article posted in Spoliers only the most recent posting. Is MG Exaggerating I mean my god Oliver comes back to Starling in 322 and we all basically have the idea that Felicity will break him out of the mind whammy

Felicity is going through seven stages of grief over Oliver again? Ugh! Give the girl a freakin' break.

I know right? The haters already jump all over it.

[Password]

I just had a dream that the sex scene played out as rebound sex.

Yeah...I feel really horrible now. And all because Felicity didn't initiate the break up.

[wonderwall]

I just had a dream that the sex scene played out as rebound sex.

Yeah...I feel really horrible now. And all because Felicity didn't initiate the break up.

 

Felicity didn't initiate the breakup, but in no way does that mean the sex scene is rebound sex. She's in love with Oliver, she knows that she's in love with Oliver. She doesn't fight for Ray. She doesn't love Ray. She tells Oliver she loves him right before they sleep together. She doesn't need time to move on from Ray because she was never in too deep with him. Ray was the rebound, now she's going back to the person whom she actually belongs with. 

 

As time goes by, I'm becoming more and more okay with Felicity not breaking it off lol

[apinknightmare]

It's in the article posted in Spoliers only the most recent posting. Is MG Exaggerating I mean my god Oliver comes back to Starling in 322 and we all basically have the idea that Felicity will break him out of the mind whammy

 

Ugh, I hadn't read that. The Seat42 reviewer said the goodbye was a nice one, so I got the impression that things were going to be hopeful. Unless he's talking about her going through the seven stages after Oliver goes evil. But then...that would mean she accepts him going bad and I'm sorry. No. He better be trolling.

[TanyaKay]

I was always ok with Felicity not breaking it off because they laid the grounds of it since 3x16 when she told Oliver that as long as he is in her life she is happy and then again in 3x17 when Ray said she had feelings for Oliver and she first said yes and then no. There never really was a choice for her to make, she was just trying to make the best of a situation where the love of her life refused to be with her.

From what we have seen of that break up scene in the clip, it seems like a nice quiet scene and I liked what I have seen so far. I think it would be more of a case of mutual break up when she obviously would not fight for Ray. Routh was good in that clip and I felt really bad with the kind of writing he was given. before episode 3x19.

[apinknightmare]

 

“There was a strong desire to have Oliver and Felicity sleep together before the events of the season finale,” Guggenheim explains. “We wanted to almost take that off the table prior to the season finale. We went back and forth on the right venue. Does it happen in Starling City? Does it happen in Nanda Parbat? They end up sleeping together in Nanda Parbat and I think we all sort of liked the romance of that. I’m personally fond of the fact that it’s Ra’s who gives Felicity the final push.”

 

WHY DOES THIS MAN ALWAYS MAKE ME DREAD STUFF I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO

Edited April 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[calliope1975]

I’m personally fond of the fact that it’s Ra’s who gives Felicity the final push.

 

 

That's such a gross quote, I don't even know where to begin.

[wonderwall]

WHY DOES THIS MAN ALWAYS MAKE ME DREAD STUFF I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO

In a sense, he's doing us a favor and lowering our expectations. Thanks Trollenheim. 

[apinknightmare]

In a sense, he's doing us a favor and lowering our expectations. Thanks Trollenheim. 

 

Just...what's happening in the finale that they wanted sex off the table before that? Nothing good, I'd imagine.

[NoWayOut]

Ugh, I hope this whole grieving thing plays out better than what I'm imagining because who wants to watch a repeat of Felicity walking around like a zombie for an entire episode? Who asked for this? Give her something else to do than just grieve, gdi.

[FurryFury]

who wants to watch a repeat of Felicity walking around like a zombie for an entire episode?

 

Maybe they'll do a crossover with iZombie, crossovers seems to be all the rage these days!

[wonderwall]

Just...what's happening in the finale that they wanted sex off the table before that? Nothing good, I'd imagine.

 

I understand not wanting to have them have sex in the finale... It takes up too much time especially if they're introducing the main villain of season 4 and tying up loose ends with the whole LoA storyline. It wouldn't have a place in the finale without it being rushed. I'd much rather them focus on it in episode 20 than just sort of have  2 second sex scene like they had with L/O and R/F so yeah... 

 

Also, I'm still holding out on the fact that Ra's will make Felicity fear that she's going to lose him forever in their conversation and that's how he pushes Felicity to go to him and be honest with him. I can see Felicity being hopeful that Oliver will be around before that conversation but Ra's scares the shit out of her. I'm willing to see how this plays out. Hopefully it plays out well and that there's an urgency to the situation. 

I think people here are sort of forgetting the fact that Felicity most definitely won't be a zombie in the next few episodes. She's going to be helping Laurel save Nyssa with Diggle. I just hope that her 'grieving' involves talking to John about him. Maybe she'll grieve differently? Like instead of feeling all numb and closed off, she and Diggle lean on each other for support? I hope so. 

[apinknightmare]

I understand not wanting to have them have sex in the finale... It takes up too much time especially if they're introducing the main villain of season 4 and tying up loose ends with the whole LoA storyline. It wouldn't have a place in the finale without it being rushed. I'd much rather them focus on it in episode 20 than just sort of have  2 second sex scene like they had with L/O and R/F so yeah... 

 

Could be that he meant that they wanted to get it out of the way instead of that they needed it out of the way for plot/story purposes (which is how it sounds). 

[Soulfire]

From the same DC article --

 

As for Diggle, something happens that really upends Diggle’s world. That’s something that will have repercussions for the remainder of the season.

 

 

I do not like the sound of that. At all.

[Carrie Ann]

Just...what's happening in the finale that they wanted sex off the table before that? Nothing good, I'd imagine.

 

Well, it could be that it does end well, and that O/F end the season together, and because we're doing the 5-month jump as usual, they didn't want to skip over their first time together. 

[NoWayOut]

Would they really go there with baby Sara?

[wonderwall]

Could be that he meant that they wanted to get it out of the way instead of that they needed it out of the way for plot/story purposes (which is how it sounds). 

 

I think we all know that Trollenheim doesn't word things properly in interviews. He's pretty shit at giving them tbqh. But I still don't mind what he said. I mean maybe they wanted to get it out of the way, maybe they didn't. But I think that them getting together before the finale sort of ties together with Oliver finally realizing he can be both Oliver and a hero at the same time. 

[Genki]

Just...what's happening in the finale that they wanted sex off the table before that? Nothing good, I'd imagine.

Oliver turns 30 and he has a lovely birthday where no one dies and Starling City is fine so he and Felicity drive off for a romantic weekend away together.

THAT IS IT!

Nothing bad will happen AT ALL!!!!

[apinknightmare]

Would they really go there with baby Sara?

I'd like to say no, but I'm not sure. I'm leaning more towards no. If Oliver does something to either Lyla or baby Sara, then he can't come back from that-I hope the writers of this show know that.

[jay741982]

Ugh, I hadn't read that. The Seat42 reviewer said the goodbye was a nice one, so I got the impression that things were going to be hopeful. Unless he's talking about her going through the seven stages after Oliver goes evil. But then...that would mean she accepts him going bad and I'm sorry. No. He better be trolling.

Felicity would NEVER accept Oliver being bad. She would know something is up, she knows her man LOL

I understand not wanting to have them have sex in the finale... It takes up too much time especially if they're introducing the main villain of season 4 and tying up loose ends with the whole LoA storyline. It wouldn't have a place in the finale without it being rushed. I'd much rather them focus on it in episode 20 than just sort of have  2 second sex scene like they had with L/O and R/F so yeah... 

 

Also, I'm still holding out on the fact that Ra's will make Felicity fear that she's going to lose him forever in their conversation and that's how he pushes Felicity to go to him and be honest with him. I can see Felicity being hopeful that Oliver will be around before that conversation but Ra's scares the shit out of her. I'm willing to see how this plays out. Hopefully it plays out well and that there's an urgency to the situation. I think people here are sort of forgetting the fact that Felicity most definitely won't be a zombie in the next few episodes. She's going to be helping Laurel save Nyssa with Diggle. I just hope that her 'grieving' involves talking to John about him. Maybe she'll grieve differently? Like instead of feeling all numb and closed off, she and Diggle lean on each other for support? I hope so.

MG SAYS there are great Diggle/Felicity scenes in 321. I can see them talking and supporting each other over Oliver. Felicity revealing she told Oliver she loved him. Diggle saying he's known Oliver's loved her for a long time etc etc

[Genki]

I think Oliver going as far as threatening Lyla & baby Sara will be enough, maybe throw in kidnapping them or holding them hostage too. I doubt, (desperately hope), they will not go further than that.

[calliope1975]

I think Oliver going as far as threatening Lyla & baby Sara will be enough, maybe throw in kidnapping them or holding them hostage too. I doubt, (desperately hope), they will not go further than that.

 

I hope not as well. Mind whammy or not, threatening a baby would be really hard to come back from, even if there's no follow through. Plus, that's not behavior from the guy I've watched battle for his soul for the past two years. Whatever Oliver does that leaves him on the outs with Diggle, I hope they've really thought about it. 

 

Since I am familiar with these writers, I'm just going to assume Oliver will pull an Anakin, slaughter a day care full of children, then shrug and point to Ra's. My lack of faith in TPTB is strong.

[nksarmi]

Would they really go there with baby Sara?

I always thought no, they wouldn't.  Which is why I've been having a bad feeling about Lyla....

[lemotomato]

I think Oliver going as far as threatening Lyla & baby Sara will be enough, maybe throw in kidnapping them or holding them hostage too. I doubt, (desperately hope), they will not go further than that.

The LoA does seem to have an MO of kidnapping family members to get what they want. I think Brainwashed Oliver will threaten/take baby Sara or Lyla in exchange for Team Arrow giving Nyssa back to the League. Even if he doesn't actually hurt them, that would be enough for Diggle to not trust him for a long while.

[rainydawn]

I don't understand what's so great about Felicity reacting to Ray and Ra's words/orders instead of doing it on her own/taking initiative re: Marc's interview. Between that and talking as if Felicity wasn't very strong in the past until this season/never stoop up to Oliver, looks like I'm just not watching the same show as him.

Edited April 22, 2015 by rainydawn

[statsgirl]

The way this show loves to do parallels, I really worry for Sara now that we know Akio is dead.  (Why didn't you just tell him you love him, Maseo?)  I suppose it's too much to hope for for the Felicity/Diggle scene to be Felicity trying to help Diggle deal with whatever Oliver is threatening his family.

 

Since Thea is getting closure with both Roy and MM, I hope it's not Thea who is leaving the show.  As much as I like equal numbers in sexes, Team Arrow composed of Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and Laurel is not something I want to see.

 

I think it makes a lot of sense to get the sex out of the way before the big finale episodes. For one thing, it ensures your audience will be there to the end. For another, as MG said

 

“Left to my own devices, I wouldn’t really talk about that scene,” he deferred. “I mean, I’m excited for people to see it and see what we have up our sleeves, but I want people also to continue to speculate about, ‘Is it real? Is it a dream?

 

Whatever reason we as individual viewers watch for, for the EPs the big thing about the show has always been the comics: masks, costumes and villains.  It makes sense to get the sex out of the way before the finale so viewers can get excited about whatever action stuff is going to happen and the set-up for next season.  Same with Moira's death, which was in 220 to make way for the Slade take-down.

Edited April 22, 2015 by statsgirl