Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Morrigan2575]

New bit from TV Guide http://www.tvguide.com/News/Mega-Buzz-Chicago-Fire-Scandal-Sleepy-Spoilers-1084751.aspx looks like it will be Felicity's mother we're meeting.

Well I guess I'll watch this episode

[statsgirl]

I really like Caity Lotz as Sara and BC and I'm glad she's going to be back in the role next season.  But I don't want her in the Arrow cave every episode.  The Black Canary is as strong character in her own right and she can't be Oliver's sidekick like Roy or Thea, or even Diggle or Felicity are. When she's in the cave, she's Oliver's equal and they can't write that without creating an imbalance on the show (see s2, eps 11- 19).  Like Malcolm Merlyn, I thinks she's best in shorter, more powerful doses.  And until they actually show us a Felicity backstory, Sara's still got way more going on than Felicity does, starting with the second episode being named after her.

Marc Guggenheim: In many ways the season begins in a completely opposite place from where Season 2 began. In Season 2, Oliver was sort of in self-imposed exile, he was mourning the loss of Tommy, things were awkward with Laurel. He wasn't even in Starling City. Season 2 sort of started out with a "Blah, everything sucks" note.

Season 3 is the exact opposite. We come in and everything's coming up Arrow! The team is clicking like you wouldn't believe. Things are great. He's got a relationship cooking with Laurel where it's like "You catch 'em, I cook 'em." Because she's a DA, he's setting them up and she's knocking them down. It's a great deal of fun to see them have this completely new relationship. And in the city, crime is down. The city is finally not falling apart.

Oh, great. Now I can look forward to everything falling apart.

 

I love (not) how he starts the interview with Laurel. I guess that makes her the most important secondary character.

 

If they're going Felicity's backstory around her mother, I guess it's not going to be such a big deal after all, more like a one episode side story.  Malcolm and Sara get tied to Ra's and the LoA, Sara has ties with Slade, Diggle has ARGUS and HIVE, Thea is trained by Malcolm, Roy has superpowers, and Felicity.. Felicity has a mother in Vegas, and no current story except Oliver's feelings and Ray.  The problem with not giving Felicity any story of her own and making her a side player in Oliver's and Ray's is that when something big takes over the canvas, like Slade or LoA last season, Felicity disappears into the woodwork without even a one episode story like Diggle got with Suicide Squad..

Edited July 22, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

New bit from TV Guide http://www.tvguide.com/News/Mega-Buzz-Chicago-Fire-Scandal-Sleepy-Spoilers-1084751.aspx looks like it will be Felicity's mother we're meeting.

 

"The secret origin of Felicity Smoak" sounds ominous. I'm glad we're getting to know more about her - here's hoping they give us a dinner with friends or a movie night at her apartment sans anyone from Team Arrow here in the present.

[Sakura12]

Malcolm also has a connection to The League, and he is a regular this year.

 

Malcolm left the League and is on Ra's hit list, Sara went back to to them. If anything Sara could be in town to capture/kill Malcolm. The EP's have said that Sara plays a big part this season, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll be seeing her that often. If Ra's al Ghul is the Big Bad then Sara being on his side will play a part. 

 

I hope Felicity's mom or anyone in her family is not connected to Oliver. I want Felicity to have a life outside of him. Maybe MamaSmoak is dating some mob boss/criminal or her dad's a criminal. That could tie her to the story if the Arrow is going after him without making him some super bad guy. I like that Felicity is the normal one, not everyone needs a super traumatic secret past. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

 

If they're going Felicity's backstory around her mother, I guess it's not going to be such a big deal after all, more like a one episode side story.  Malcolm and Sara get tied to Ra's and the LoA, Sara has ties with Slade, Diggle has ARGUS and HIVE, Thea is trained by Malcolm, Roy has superpowers, and Felicity.. Felicity has a mother in Vegas, and no current story except Oliver's feelings and Ray.  The problem with not giving Felicity any story of her own and making her a side player in Oliver's and Ray's is that when something big takes over the canvas, like Slade or LoA last season, Felicity disappears into the woodwork without even a one episode story like Diggle got with Suicide Squad..

 

But no one has a current story that isn't tied to Oliver. Ra's and the LoA are coming for Oliver this season (if the rumors are true), so Sara (and to some extent, Malcolm)'s ties bring them into the fold. Diggle has is ties with ARGUS and the Suicide Squad to be able to bring them into the Starling City fold. Thea is being trained by Malcolm (story-wise) specifically to provide angst for Oliver. So, either Felicity has a normal, unrelated past that can be covered in one episode (which is my hope), or she's got some contrived, f-ed up backstory that will, again, somehow tie in to Oliver. No one on this show is ever going to be allowed to have any kind of story on-screen that doesn't relate back to him.

[Morrigan2575]

So, either Felicity has a normal, unrelated past that can be covered in one episode (which is my hope), or she's got some contrived, f-ed up backstory that will, again, somehow tie in to Oliver. No one on this show is ever going to be allowed to have any kind of story on-screen that doesn't relate back to him.

Agreed. I'd much prefer Felicity's back story to be relatively normal but have it tie into a Villain of the Week story.

From the same TV Guide link. Guess we have to start looking at Flash questions too. LOL

Any info on the crossover episodes of Flash and Arrow? — Leona

I hear the shows' overall narrative arcs will be somewhat related this season, enough so that the crossover will make sense. "Something will happen at the end of Episode 7 of Arrow that will send the Arrow team to Central City and they will discover it was a wider plot, which will drive them all back to Starling City," executive producer Andrew Kreisberg tells me.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

That's the trade-off. Either Felicity has a contrived backstory like Sara, Thea, Roy or Diggle that covers not only several episodes but multiple seasons, or she has a normal backstory that fuels one episode and she's back to being a supporting character who gets pulled out when she's needed for someone else's story, like Can Oliver Really Date?  or Ray Comes to Town And We Need To Make Oliver Jealous.

 

Diggle's military background has fueled three episodes over two seasons so far with more to go on the Suicide Squad and the possibility of a spin-off. That's what I want for Felicity, not a one shot episode where they go to Vegas, meet her mother, and afterwards Felicity disappears into being tech support and arm candy again, woodwork when someone else brings their big story (e.g. LoA) on to the show. Or even their continuing story (being ADA and prosecuting the bad guys Oliver has caught behind bars).  The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour and after s2 I have no faith that Felicity will remain important to the show other than as LI/IT girl unless she does get a big story of her own. 

[apinknightmare]

That's the trade-off. Either Felicity has a contrived backstory like Sara, Thea, Roy or Diggle that covers not only several episodes but multiple seasons, or she has a normal backstory that fuels one episode and she's back to being a supporting character who gets pulled out when she's needed for someone else's story, like Can Oliver Really Date?  or Ray Comes to Town And We Need To Make Oliver Jealous.

 

Diggle's military background has fueled three episodes over two seasons so far with more to go on the Suicide Squad and the possibility of a spin-off. That's what I want for Felicity, not a one shot episode where they go to Vegas, meet her mother, and afterwards Felicity disappears into being tech support and arm candy again, woodwork when someone else brings their big story (e.g. LoA) on to the show. Or even their continuing story (being ADA and prosecuting the bad guys Oliver has caught behind bars).  The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour and after s2 I have no faith that Felicity will remain important to the show other than as LI/IT girl unless she does get a big story of her own. 

 

See, I'm of a different mind - I don't want her to have any kind of back story connected to anything that keeps recurring. I want to learn about where she came from, but I don't need a whole continuing arc dedicated to it, and I don't want either of her parents to be big bads (or criminals at all). I suppose I'd be okay if her mother got caught up in something nefarious on a low-level basis, but I'd much rather know about her life outside of Oliver NOW. If they can write her mother into something like that (maybe being involved in a gambling ring or something, I don't know). Flashbacks I, personally, could do without.

[Sunshine]

Figures Felicity's story will be in flashbacks. I wonder if it takes place before or after she visits Central City? According to Grant Gustin in a TVF interview Barry realizes he is also unavailable for a romance with Felicity. "Unlike Oliver, he realizes he is in love with someone else."

[Sakura12]

That's the same boat I'm in. I don't need Felicity flashbacks or have her some traumatic backstory. I don't really care about Felicity's past, I'm interested in her now and what she can be in the future. The little we got of her past was enough for me. Dad abandoned her when she was little, grew up in Vegas with a probably an absentee mom, graduated from M.I.T and now works for the Arrow. I don't need to meet someone's family to know who they are. 

 

I want to see her grow and move forward. Mostly because I don't trust these writers to not give Felicity some cliche or contrived backstory. Plus the focus they have to put on it because of Felicity's obsessive fanbase has me more worried than anything else. I'm scared of what they'll come up with. 

[Password]

"Unlike Oliver, he realizes he is in love with someone else."

Seriously Felicity can't catch a break.

[apinknightmare]

Seriously Felicity can't catch a break.

 

I wonder why Felicity's going to CC in ep four, and after the "spoiler" that one of the crossovers would be love triangle-y, I really hope she doesn't try to get with Barry and get rebuffed. She already knows about Iris, and hopefully the show doesn't go there. At least Oliver's not turning her down because he wants someone else, I guess. If there's going to be an upside to it, I mean.

[Morrigan2575]

Figures Felicity's story will be in flashbacks. I wonder if it takes place before or after she visits Central City? According to Grant Gustin in a TVF interview Barry realizes he is also unavailable for a romance with Felicity. "Unlike Oliver, he realizes he is in love with someone else."

You guys do realize that the flashbacks will fuel her current / present day storyline right? I mean this show doesn't just throw flashbacks out for no reason. Whatever happens in this episode will give us flashbacks to her life pre-Team Arrow. I kind of don't get the reaction that this is somehow a bad thing or slight to the character.

I wonder why Felicity's going to CC in ep four, and after the "spoiler" that one of the crossovers would be love triangle-y, I really hope she doesn't try to get with Barry and get rebuffed. She already knows about Iris, and hopefully the show doesn't go there. At least Oliver's not turning her down because he wants someone else, I guess. If there's going to be an upside to it, I mean.

I'm betting it's tied to the Mirakuru story, just like the last time she went to STAR Labs. Edited July 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

You guys do realize that the flashbacks will fuel her current / present day storyline right? I mean this show doesn't just throw flashbacks out for no reason. Whatever happens in this episode will give us flashbacks to her life pre-Team Arrow. I kind of don't get the reaction that this is somehow a bad thing or slight to the character.

 

Plus it's a series of flashbacks - I know there's more than one flashback per episode, but maybe these flashbacks span multiple eps to coincide with the current storyline (meaning her mom or dad are probably involved in some kind of current mess, I would imagine).

[writersblock51]

I think CL's status is hinging on 2 things:

 

- budget concerns

- how Laurel is received by fans & critics

 

I truly believe they are keeping Sara around, even if just recurring, because if things with Laurel continue to tank, they can say 'hey, we tried!' and then commit fully to Sara as BC.  But she and Laurel will be put through many paces before then...   and that's not stuff I'm looking forward to.

 

I'm looking forward to the Thea/Malcom stuff, as well as Diggle and hopefully H.I.V.E./Suicide Squad/Deadshot(!), and, yes, even Roy's road to Arsenal.

 

I'm not interested in the Hong Kong stuff because Waller is there.  Katana and her husband, yes.  Waller, absolutely not.

 

Felicity - put me in the camp for those who have hoped that she'd come from a relatable & relatively normal family.  Now we have a Vegas mom, whatever that means (but clearly Felicity wanted to put miles between herself and her past), and a dad who left, current whereabouts unknown.  I'm assuming that Mama Smoak will shed light into why Felicity is as driven and loyal as she is, while Papa Smoak remains a mystery that the show may not know what to do with.  I just hope it isn't as contrived as Sin's father was with Sara.

 

And as long as whatever flashbacks there are for Felicity then relate, importantly, to what's happening in present day (much like ALL the previous flashbacks for everyone else), I think the show will be OK with it. 

 

 

Seriously Felicity can't catch a break.

 

No kidding.  And it's not as if she's been actively hunting down people to fall in love with either.  I think that's yet another part of her appeal to many fans.

[Sunshine]

I am not surprised Felicity's backstory is told in flashbacks. I kept reading about people speculating on a road trip to Vegas which I just couldn't see happening. Her season long arc is supposed to be similar to Oliver's. Can she have what she wants? I have since wondered what specifically she is looking for and why? I hope it's about more than just growing up without a dad (part of Oliver's story).

However it pans out, I'm just happy they are giving her something outside Team Arrow (even if it comes back to Oliver).

Speaking of Felicity, is it possible she's not involved with her boss? I just read an interview on Comic Book Resources with AK which refers to Ray Palmer as a potential bidder for Queen Consolidated. Is QC perhaps in control of the courts-bankruptcy, receivership, etc? That would make more sense if Oliver is fighting to get QC back. It would also eliminate the sleeping with the boss scenario.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Sunshine

[BkWurm1]

Felicity's flashbacks should be interesting on many levels.  Sure there is the information which I'm happy to have and however it relates to what is currently going on in the show but it will also be fun see their version of a younger Felicity.  Braces?  Zits?  Brown hair?  Oh, this could be as good bad as Oliver's shaggy frat boy hairdon't.    

Edited July 23, 2014 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

See, I'm of a different mind - I don't want her to have any kind of back story connected to anything that keeps recurring. I want to learn about where she came from, but I don't need a whole continuing arc dedicated to it, and I don't want either of her parents to be big bads (or criminals at all). I suppose I'd be okay if her mother got caught up in something nefarious on a low-level basis, but I'd much rather know about her life outside of Oliver NOW. If they can write her mother into something like that (maybe being involved in a gambling ring or something, I don't know). Flashbacks I, personally, could do without.

I'm not so much interested in her backstory as the EPs seem to think I am, because backstory is backstory although this show loves it's flashbacks. Hmm, five years ago would have been about the time she got hired at QC.

 

On the other hand, I do want her connected to a story that keeps re-occurring in the present. One of the criticisms of Felicity last season is that she has no life beyond QC and Team Arrow therefore, as Natalie Abrams wrote in TV Guide, Oliver didn't know her as a person.  I disagree, I think he did know who she is but giving her a backstory rather than a recurring arc in the present day only strengthens the idea that she doesn't have a life beyond Oliver and the Team.

 

I just hope it isn't as contrived as Sin's father was with Sara.

 

And as long as whatever flashbacks there are for Felicity then relate, importantly, to what's happening in present day (much like ALL the previous flashbacks for everyone else), I think the show will be OK with it. 

 

I agree with both, that Sin's story was too contrived (and didn't help Sin as a character and I'm not even sure it helped Sara), and that the Felicity flashbacks need to relate to what's happening in the present day.

 

Speaking of Felicity, is it possible she's not involved with her boss? I just read an interview on Comic Book Resources with AK which refers to Ray Palmer as a potential bidder for Queen Consolidated. Is QC perhaps in control of the courts-bankruptcy, receivership, etc? That would make more sense if Oliver is fighting to get QC back. It would also eliminate the sleeping with the boss scenario.

I think I remember reading in the spoilers (although I can't remember which ones) that Ray Palmer is the new head of QC and that he has plans for the Applied Sciences division.  Meeting Felicity over technology sounds better than having her as his EA.

 

I don't know how much of a love interest he's going to be, given the big Barry/Felicity build-up that went nowhere.

[SmallScreenDiva]

The Barry/Felicity thing, even with all the hype, wasn't really supposed to go anywhere, I think. He was there for 2 eps, and then got his own show. Ray Palmer is supposed to be in 14 episodes, so the show has more time to develop a relationship there. And if they spread out his 14 episodes, then this "relationship" could potentially last the entire season. (taking the rest of my thoughts to hopes/fears thread)

[wonderwall]

You know, I'd be really interested in this idea of Felicity not having a life beyond Team Arrow if the writers and EPs acknowledge it. The reason being that this could be tackled on the show as a possible area of growth for her. Like she would have to learn the art of managing her secret life and her real life. But then again, they probably won't go down this route because it would take away from Oliver's story. 

 

But is it wrong that I don't mind that she doesn't have much of a life outside of Arrow right now? It just goes to show that she's dedicated to the cause. Sooner or later I would like to see her branch out so she isn't painted as a martyr (one martyr is enough for the show). 

[Orion]

I wonder why Felicity's going to CC in ep four, and after the "spoiler" that one of the crossovers would be love triangle-y, I really hope she doesn't try to get with Barry and get rebuffed. She already knows about Iris, and hopefully the show doesn't go there. At least Oliver's not turning her down because he wants someone else, I guess. If there's going to be an upside to it, I mean.

 

I'm only going to post the part of the article that talks about what role Felicity will play in Episode 4 of the Flash but I'll post the link for the source. 

 

http://flashtvnews.com/arrows-felicity-smoak-to-appear-in-flash-episode-4-going-rogue/

 

“It’s an episode where Barry’s beginning to question his teammates, and Felicity coming along is not just to reconnect with him; it actually serves a grander purpose, which is that Felicity is somebody who knows how difficult it is to have teammates who are fighting crime. So, she’s there to offer some sage advice, both to Barry and to to Caitlin, Cisco, and Wells. So we’re really excited,” he says.

 

They still sound like they are going to keep using Felicity for exposition and like they said the glue between the two shows.

 

I'm excited about Felicity's backstory, front story, future story, I don't care just give me info on her other than one line throw away info drops. And the way I look at it they almost have to give her a back story since everyone literally everyone else has had flashbacks.  If they don't do a flash back for her she would almost seem like she wasn't on equal footing with the others. 

[somewhereother]

You know, I'd be really interested in this idea of Felicity not having a life beyond Team Arrow if the writers and EPs acknowledge it. The reason being that this could be tackled on the show as a possible area of growth for her. Like she would have to learn the art of managing her secret life and her real life. 

 

I agree, I think the emphasis is often for backstory on her social and family life - which I totally understand and would love. But I think there is scope within Team Arrow to flesh out her character through some background on why and how she does what she does.

 

It would be interesting to see how active her 'hacker' life is. I'm not sure that a computer science degree necessarily equals an ability/desire to hack, so would love to see why she got into it (as a 'hobby'). Then it could focus on how she makes her contribution to the team and weave in friends, family etc. Her links to the online community and her 'identity' and status there - could outline motivation and characterisation as well as providing another a source for crime for team arrow to solve. In the same way that Digg's links to ARGUS & Hive opened up new avenues for the show.

[poetgirl925]

The problem is what AK just said (again) in this interview: that they don't like waiting and and they love accelerated story. They either don't understand or don't care that this means a lot of characterization points get axed for lack of time, and that applies to all the characters. If they had time to work in normal for Felicity in the present, we probably would have already seen it. But they don't have time and probably never will. There is also no such thing as 'normal' in this universe. 'Normal' relationships like Laurel's friend from S1 get axed because they don't serve the overall story and they don't make time for that. Even Moira didn't fit the world they're building to, so she had to go. It's why Lyla works better than Carly. And Thea? She'll never be just 'Oliver's little sister' ever again.

I don't need flashbacks for Felicity but I'll take them happily as long as they serve the story being told in that episode and inform our present knowledge of the character. She's a series regular and deserves at least that. They did very well with Diggle's flashbacks in this regard. The Lance flashbacks haven't done Laurel too many favors but that's because they use them to service Oliver's story rather than hers. I'd like it if Felicity could be 'normal' but even if her long lost father turns out to be an antagonist, she'll probably still be one of the most normal characters on the show. That's probably all we can ask for given the type of show this is and the producers' method of NASCAR storytelling.

Edited July 23, 2014 by poetgirl925

[stormborn]

The problem is what AK just said (again) in this interview: that they don't like waiting and and they love accelerated story. They either don't understand or don't care that this means a lot of characterization points get axed for lack of time, and that applies to all the characters. 

 

ITA. I was so hoping someone would touch on what AK said in that interview, because I found it quite side-eye worthy to be honest. And the above outlines exactly why that type of storytelling doesn't work in the long run when it comes to producing a cohesive show that marries both plot and character development in seamless fashion. Strong character development is more way important than "exciting" plot twists as far as I'm concerned because it provides a good, solid foundation that in turn allows the show to go to more exciting and surprising places plot-wise...realistically. 

 

The fact that the EPs are unabashedly admitting to preferring fast paced storytelling makes me nervous for season three. It doesn't seem like they've learnt their lesson from last season. Cause, while last season had its moments, as a complete package overall; it was a major disappointment. 

[Password]

I think the EPs should probably take note that the characters' story lines are more important than the plot lines. The plot is meant to help us see changes in the characters in how they react to situations. They're meant to show us if they've learnt and are growing or if they're stuck in a rut. I'm all for exciting plots but if my characters do stupid things in an inorganic way (like hooking up with exes they shouldn't or turning into children before my very eyes) and it is all for the plot, they lose me because I no longer have a connection to the characters.

 

The EPs went a long way to make me not trust their vision for the show in the second half of s2. I desperately hope the same won't happen in s3. I think looking at their comments is probably making things worse, rather than better, because we read into every living detail. I just really hope what SA said about s3 being more intimate is true.

[poetgirl925]

ITA. I was so hoping someone would touch on what AK said in that interview, because I found it quite side-eye worthy to be honest. And the above outlines exactly why that type of storytelling doesn't work in the long run when it comes to producing a cohesive show that marries both plot and character development in seamless fashion. Strong character development is more way important than "exciting" plot twists as far as I'm concerned because it provides a good, solid foundation that in turn allows the show to go to more exciting and surprising places plot-wise...realistically. 

You know it's funny because I was watching SA's Q&A on FB this morning and one of the questions was about writing - I can't remember the exact wording but it was something like does he ever question things the writers have characters saying. His answer is that he thinks the writing is on point (I disagree that this is always true but moving on) BUT his concern is more about continuity. Since they've wrecked continuity a couple of times with their fast paced story, he's right to be concerned. I think he voices these concerns and others like MB and JB likely do as well. Manu has been rather vocal about the parts of his character's story that didn't make sense, so I bet he spoke up at some point.

My gut feeling is that the EPs know the problems created by their methods. One of them admitted it was a problem in S2. However, it wouldn't surprise me if they think they can fix this by just tightening up the story. That might solve part of it but it's not the whole problem. They've been walking a very thin line with Oliver, for example. Sometimes he redefines hypocrisy and general mandouche behavior, and it's a problem if they want me to like him. I also need to like him to care about his journey to hero. It's the characters that will keep me watching more than plot twists. Revenge had plot twists and so did Scandal, but when I stopped caring about the characters, I stopped watching.

[Password]

They've been walking a very thin line with Oliver, for example. Sometimes he redefines hypocrisy and general mandouche behavior, and it's a problem if they want me to like him. I also need to like him to care about his journey to hero. It's the characters that will keep me watching more than plot twists. Revenge had plot twists and so did Scandal, but when I stopped caring about the characters, I stopped watching.

 

I think this statement is what I hated most about the second half of s2. They turned someone I was cheering for, into someone I wanted the villain to wreck. And all in the space of perhaps 4 episodes. If they don't allow Oliver to have some win in his life, and don't allow his old habits to be exorcised and his character to grow, they might as well ship Diggle and Felicity off to A.R.G.U.S because I don't want them around Oliver.

Edited July 23, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[FurryFury]

Even Moira didn't fit the world they're building to, so she had to go.

 

I'll argue Moira fit that world very well, actually. However, they needed their shocking death (especially if they've changed their mind about killing Sara off at the last moment, as many have speculated), they needed to kick-start Thea's journey, and, well, giving Oliver some more manpain is always a bonus. Also, she'a parent. Parents never live long on The CW. Sometimes it's laughable, really: I remember that on The Vampire Diaries, Elena managed to lose her adopted parents, her birth parents and her two legal guardians all in two years' time.

 

The only reason Quentin's still alive and kicking is that he's the show's Commissioner Gordon. And even then, I wouldn't be exactly surprised to see him killed off in season 3, especially if they find some contrived way to make Laurel take his place, or introduce a younger character with a similar role.

[poetgirl925]

I agree they wanted a 'shock value' with Moira's death, but I think they also decided they could afford to dispense with her character. She fits into a lot of the darker themes but not necessarily into the world of superheroes. I'm guessing, but it seems that with Flash crossovers, more heroes/villains, the LoA angle, etc. that she just doesn't fit as well going forward. Malcolm will be around more because of Thea and the League business, but once they finish those stories Malcolm might get killed off as well. I kind of think Quentin will survive because the Commissioner Gordon type role is useful and also because he's well liked by fans. Moira was too but Quentin is more useful to the hero plot so they could easily justify keeping him. They can always add a hot young detective without getting rid of Quentin. I also agree the parent thing played into killing off Moira. They probably decided the conflict between Oliver and Thea would be more interesting without Moira there as a buffer.

[Velocity23]

Marc Guggenheim hinted on Twitter that in the third episode there will be a callback to the scene where Felicity gave Oliver a cup of coffee.

 

[quarks]

Oh, please, please please please do not make that coffee callback into a scene where Roy asks Felicity for coffee. Just no. That coffee bit originally worked because it was Felicity both insisting on owning her own life even if she has to work for Oliver the Often Unthinking Jerk and then realizing that ok, hey, dude's had a bad week, I'll be nice.

Since other people mentioned Revenge and Scandal, two shows I watched and then gave up on, I'll note that both of them offer what I think are cautionary examples going ahead:

1. With Revenge, completely forgetting what the show was about in its second season even though it's the title of the show - Revenge! - and instead going off on various disconnected plots and international conspiracies and so on. The third season tried to recover and didn't. Arrow does have an advantage here - the basic issue behind Revenge is that the showrunners have no idea how long they have to show Emily's revenge - will the show last five years? Six?

Arrow doesn't know that either, but it has one advantage there: it's not focused on getting revenge on one family/assorted helpful conspirators, but an overall hero's journey, so the show should be able to transition into Oliver heroing, the way Buffy and Angel did.

2. With Scandal, an issue that Arrow skirted very close to at the beginning of the show and the second half of the second season until the last couple of episodes: unlikeable protagonists. That can still work, especially when balanced out with likeable characters, but it can also frustrate viewers, especially if, as in this case, they know that Oliver can be likeable and charming.

Felicity and Diggle can help in that regard, but given that Hong Kong Oliver is probably not going to be a Very Nice Person, this might be a problem for me if the show isn't careful with present day Oliver.

[tv echo]

Actually, I wouldn't mind if Felicity's back story is tied back to Oliver's back story in some way.  If done right, it could even be believable.  Felicity did work at QC and she was known to Walter - so it wouldn't be surprising if she was specifically recruited to work at QC and for Walter (who's friends with Robert, Moira and Malcolm) because of something having to do with her father - and that that something had to do with ARGUS, HIVE or LOA.  Walter may have been asked by her father to watch over her.  She would be completely unsuspecting.  It would be more unbelievable if Felicity had had no connection to the Queen family business prior to meeting Oliver.

 

She can still be a normal girl with a normal upbringing - and a normal, albeit somewhat kooky mother - and still have a mysterious unknown father.

Edited July 23, 2014 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

With these writers thinking they are like Joss Whedon (which they are not even close) they should take notes of his biggest accomplishments, writing for the characters first, then tell the story. In one 14 episodes season of Firefly I knew more about every character on that show including some of the minor ones then I know about any of the characters on this one after 46 episodes.

 

They need to write down at least a rough outline of each characters personality, background and motivations before they start writing the episodes. All of that doesn't have to be shown right away and could be tweaked later on, but have it as a starting point.  The actors shouldn't have to be making up backstories and motivations on their own all the time. That's the writers job.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Sakura12

[Velocity23]

MG and AK preview season 3:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/arrow-bosses-season-3-secrets-719881

[HighwayFlower]

So I'm convinced that the "Sara" episode is about her giving up the Canary name and becoming just Sara again. That ties in with the season theme being identity. I think the article made it very clear Laurel will become Black Canary, but they decided they needed a break between Sara giving up the name and Laurel taking it, to make it easier for fans to accept.

[Password]

I think Ray will play a bigger role in this season for Felicity than us sort of learning more about her. Which annoys me. Fun. Of perhaps her new interesting relationship with Ray will allow us to learn more about her.

I do look forward to seeing a bumbling Oliver. That is definitely fun.

OB GYN...ok so the baby is born but we're still visiting doctors. So the baby was just born. Regardless, I expect Digglet adorableness.

For lovers of Sara as BC, I'm really sorry. They say everyone will eventually be their comic book hero so there's no hope for Sara Lance as BC. I actually feel really bad about it because just no one wants this to happen. Or rather a majority of fans don't want it to happen.

Edited July 23, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Sakura12]

So Laurel's going to take her sister's name that means nothing to her and is associated with her sister being a killer? Or she's taking the name her sister made a hero, so she would have to do less work becoming a hero. That's why it makes no sense for Laurel to take the name Canary (adding Black to it doesn't change anything). That name means something to Sara, that's why she choose it. Laurel needs to give herself her own name and identity if she wants to be seen as someone. Otherwise she'll just living in the shadow of her sister, no matter what happens to Sara. 

 

Sara can die, give up her name, her outfit or whatever it doesn't matter. I need to accept Laurel as a character before I accept her as anything else. 

[apinknightmare]

MG and AK preview season 3:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/arrow-bosses-season-3-secrets-719881

Caity Lotz returns for at least three more episodes as Laurel's sister Sara, starting with the premiere. Last seen giving Laurel her black leather jacket in the finale as a handing of the baton to the next presumed Black Canary, Kreisberg was mum about the context of her appearance: "She's come back to Starling City with a very specific mission." Laurel, he maintains, has a long road ahead to becoming her comic-book alter ego. "She's an attorney with a nice, sweet jacket," Kreisberg says with a laugh. "We're going to see Laurel take a few big steps towards her comic-book self this season. Let's just say that Katie Cassidy is pumping iron."

 

No thank you.

[Velocity23]

They still haven't said a single thing about Laurel except she has a new jacket and of course is a lawyer. 

[apinknightmare]

They still haven't said a single thing about Laurel except she has a new jacket and of course is a lawyer. 

 

And that she's taking steps toward becoming her comic-book self, which is the one thing I really didn't want to hear.

[Velocity23]

i am gonna take that with reservation, they went out of their way not to say Canary. And at this point they just keep repeating she takes a step closer to becoming her comic book self. And we all know how the plans of these guys work, they like to throw stuff out and make things up. 

[apinknightmare]

i am gonna take that with reservation, they went out of their way not to say Canary. And at this point they just keep repeating she takes a step closer to becoming her comic book self. And we all know how the plans of these guys work, they like to throw stuff out and make things up. 

 

Yeah, but her comic book self IS Black Canary, so I don't know that there's any other way to take it. If they wanted to be vague, they'd say she's taking another step toward becoming a 'hero' or something.

Edited July 23, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Velocity23]

I refuse to believe till i see it on screen. These EP talk a lot things regarding Laurel and most of the time i don't see it on my screen. I find it funny there is no talk anymore about Laurels island. Just that Thea will be going through her own island in season 3. 

[HighwayFlower]

Unfortunately Dinah Laurel Lance is one version of the Black Canary, even though I think comic Dinah would be pissed at the way Laurel is portraying her.

But I can see NO reason for TV Laurel to call herself Canary other then "comics"

[wonderwall]

I'm now convincing myself that Laurel WILL become BC so I don't become disappointed in the future. It's obvious where they're going with her with all the interviews. Alas, only time will tell whether or not they can actually fix Laurel. But for now, I reserve the right to be excited about everything else that's going on. :)

[JayKay]

Bummer. While the article itself was more aggressive in its LaurelCanary implications than AK, seems like the show's still headed in a predictable direction that I found distasteful from the beginning yet still watched. I can't even be mad at them. My dumbass should have known SaraCanary was too good to be true.

[Morrigan2575]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54252

 

Which is actually total BS because I can dig up any number of articles from S2 where they referred to Sara as the Black Canary.

 

Does that necessarily mean that Caity's still our Black Canary, or is there room for that identity to shift to somebody else -- say, perhaps Laurel?

Well, the thing we've always said is Sara is the Canary. Without a modifier. That's my answer. I'm sticking with that.

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54252

 

Which is actually total BS because I can dig up any number of articles from S2 where they referred to Sara as the Black Canary.

 Why do these people insist on toying with my emotions?

Edited July 23, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Velocity23]

Jesus they should just make things clear. I hope SDCC gives more info. So they operating with the following formula now: Caity is our Canary! LAurel will become her comic book self. which is it now? 

[Morrigan2575]

I thought that was making it clear....did i read that wrong?  

 

Sara = Canary

Laurel = Black Canary

 

Is that not what he meant?

Edited July 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575