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Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Not sure if it was on this forum or another, or in an article I read. But someone had the good idea, that the next spin-off should be a Justice League type spin-off, where it would not revolve just around 1 hero, but encompass a lot so that the story could move where it needs to be.

They don't need to do a spin-off.  They're already doing a Justice League type show - only they've called it Arrow - unofficially known as Arrow & Friends starting next season.

 

Also, I just watched the promo for 3x11 and can I just say, and this is not at all Laurel related, but "justice is the new black" is an awful tagline for so many, many reasons. I hope it's just limited to that one trailer. 

It's subconscious conditioning by TPTB.  Associate the word "justice" with Laurel enough times - "Justice is the new black", "I'm the justice that you can't run from" - and fans will be brainwashed into believing that her BC is the superhero who fights for truth, justice and the American way.

 

He's going to make Felicity "mad as hell" at Oliver, which will really suck.  Part of the reason I hate Laurel is how horrible she was to Oliver, and then her sister, when they came back.  Personally, I think cheating, etc., really pales next to death, and she should have been happy they were alive, even if she didn't want to hang out with them.  The first thing she said to Oliver was something like "I'd hoped you'd stay dead longer than five years."  So am I going to have to start disliking Felicity because she's going to be hateful to Oliver when he comes back?  So I can't start watching again after the dreaded trilogy?

I said it before, Felicity and Laurel are switching roles this season.  Felicity is going to be the one who's angry at Oliver and has the love-angsty relationship with him.  Laurel is going to be the supportive one who banters with him (once he inevitably accepts her as a fellow crimefighter).  This is the EPs' way of building up Laurel/BC's popularity at the expense of Felicity - who they feel is so popular that she can take the hit and recover.

Edited by tv echo
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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

It's subconscious conditioning by TPTB. Associate the word "justice" with Laurel enough times - "Justice is the new black", "I'm the justice that you can't run from" - and fans will be brainwashed into believing that her BC is the superhero who fights for truth, justice and the American way.

I didn't really mean that it was awful in terms of Laurel (even though it is). I just think it's a little tone deaf, generally speaking.

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looptab

looptab

(edited)

Yeah, I think that's supposed to be her looking awkward and inexperienced.

Yeah, I thought so. I'm gonna be really sad when she won't be walking like that anymore, though. :D

Edited by looptab
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Belinea

Belinea

(edited)

Can I just say that after reading all of MG spoilers I feel as though 3B still sounds very dark (at least to me) And Oliver's return won't be a happy moment? Why on earth could there not be one happy moment in all of this anger and sadness? Once in a while a happy moment might not hurt.  

 

I am actually curious how 3x11 will turn out. This is a probably an important episode for the producers as well as the show. Laurel finally needs to start to work as a character. If she doesn't start to work now, people will probably never take her seriously. Sometimes I wonder if they listen to criticism and I don't mean fan criticism. Actual criticism of people who work in their industry because many considered 3A to be without a proper direction. I understand that as long as the ratings drop they might not care at all but I feel like they should care a little more about the quality of the show in the sense that stories should be logical and not only be there to turn a character into an superhero.

 

And I am now throughly confused why Laurel wants to be a vigilante. Laurel wanted to avenge her sister. If she only wanted to avenge her sister, she would try and find out who  did it and make them pay. She seemingly doesn't anymore. (She has not been after Sara's killer in quite a while) But now she wants to be her...why? Sara wasn't really a fighter for justice. She helped but she (to me) didn't fight for justice. I am confused how quickly Laurel's motivation is changed to serve the storyline.

Edited by Belinea
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jay741982

jay741982

They don't need to do a spin-off. They're already doing a Justice League type show - only they've called it Arrow - unofficially known as Arrow & Friends starting next season.

It's subconscious conditioning by TPTB. Associate the word "justice" with Laurel enough times - "Justice is the new black", "I'm the justice that you can't run from" - and fans will be brainwashed into believing that her BC is the superhero who fights for truth, justice and the American way.

I said it before, Felicity and Laurel are switching roles this season. Felicity is going to be the one who's angry at Oliver and has the love-angsty relationship with him. Laurel is going to be the supportive one who banters with him (once he inevitably accepts her as a fellow crimefighter). This is the EPs' way of building up Laurel/BC's popularity at the expense of Felicity - who they feel is so popular that she can take the hit and recover.

UGH I hope not stuff like this makes me hate MG Felicity should not be sacrifed for fucking Laurel. Maybe if they made Laurel a little more likeable they wouldn't have this problem. Does he want people to watch?

Can I just say that after reading all of MG spoilers I feel as though 3B still sounds very dark (at least to me) And Oliver's return won't be a happy moment? Why on earth could there not be one happy moment in all of this anger and sadness? Once in a while a happy moment might not hurt.

I am actually curious how 3x11 will turn out. This is a probably an important episode for the producers as well as the show. Laurel finally needs to start to work as a character. If she doesn't start to work now, people will probably never take her seriously. Sometimes I wonder if they listen to criticism and I don't mean fan criticism. Actual criticism of people who work in their industry because many considered 3A to be without a proper direction. I understand that as long as the ratings drop they might not care at all but I feel like they should care a little more about the quality of the show in the sense that stories should be logical and not only be there to turn a character into an superhero.

Because apparently they think we want a depressing show which this season with Killing Sara and Olicity angst has become

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Chaser

Chaser

(edited)

Oliver's return is neither happy nor intense. I wonder if he does get word to them some how and they know he is alive but he isn't coming home. And then he just strolls in one day.

 

Based on his answer, something tells me that the Oliver and Laurel will not be having 'cute' scenes together. Probably antagonistic scenes; since that is what they do best.

 

Why do they keep asking if Felicity is going to be in specific episode? 3x13, 3x19…Season 4?

 

I'm really glad the answer to the who is Laurel going to be closest to on Team Arrow question did not include Diggle. Because that would make it Oliver, Laurel and Diggle and that would upset my stomach. I think if Laurel is going to be bantering with anyone its going to be Roy. And as much as I don't want Laural and Felicity to be instant friends, if Felicity and Oliver are going to be on the outs I need Felicity to stay with Team Arrow (and it looks like she is) and so I need her to have some support in the Team (and apparently that is going to include Laurel). Based on a lot of fan response to Laurel, I think making her all inspirational and pro active is working (seriously 5 mins of screen time and leather outfit and people are okay with her). 

Edited by 10Eleven12
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)

Yeah, I think that's supposed to be her looking awkward and inexperienced.

Doubtful (IMO) KC hasn't come close to demonstrating that level of acting and character awareness. More likely (IMO) KC beleives this is how a tough/badass/comic book heroine would power walk. Edited by Morrigan2575
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jay741982

jay741982

MG has the nerve to say Oliver and Felicity Would be blissfuly happy if they got their shit together? Fuck him they were FINE before the season Premier and having Ray and Laurel forced on us

Oliver's return is neither happy nor intense. I wonder if he does get word to them some how and they know he is alive but he isn't coming home. And then he just strolls in one day.

Based on his answer, something tells me that the Oliver and Laurel will not be having 'cute' scenes together. Probably antagonistic scenes; since that is what they do best.

Why do they keep asking if Felicity is going to be in specific episode? 3x13, 3x19…Season 4?

I'm really glad the answer to the who is Laurel going to be closest to on Team Arrow question did not include Diggle. Because that would make it Oliver, Laurel and Diggle and that would upset my stomach. I think if Laurel is going to be bantering with anyone its going to be Roy. And as much as I don't want Laural and Felicity to be instant friends, if Felicity and Oliver are going to be on the outs I need Felicity to stay with Team Arrow (and it looks like she is) and so I need her to have some support in the Team (and apparently that is going to include Laurel). Based on a lot of fan response to Laurel, I think making her all inspirational and pro active is working (seriously 5 mins of screen time and leather outfit and people are okay with her).

Maybe Laurel will help unite Olicity? That would piss Laurviver fans off lol

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

Can I just say that after reading all of MG spoilers I feel as though 3B still sounds very dark (at least to me) And Oliver's return won't be a happy moment? Why on earth could there not be one happy moment in all of this anger and sadness? Once in a while a happy moment might not hurt.  

Yeah, this is actually my main problem with S3. And really, I can take dark. I'm okay with dark. But Arrow this season is dark, and depressing, and *hopeless*, and the spoilers point to more of the same. If the tone doesn't uplift, and soon, then it'll be me that'll be hopeless for this show. The perfect tone they hit in the crossover actually fooled me, I think.

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KirkB

KirkB

(edited)

Oh that would be hilarious. If it took Laurel to walk in, smack Oliver upside the head, point at Felicity and say "What the hell are you waiting for?" Plus it would give the Laurel/Oliver fans fits. 

 

And did these guys learn nothing from Buffy's season 6? Darkness is one thing. Darkness and grimness is fine. Nothing BUT darkness and grim in a season is just way too much.

Edited by KirkB
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Doubtful (IMO) KC hasn't come close to demonstrating that level of acting and character awareness. More likely (IMO) KC beleives this is how a tough/badass/comic book heroine would power walk.

She wouldn't have to demonstrate character awareness. Someone could've showed her to walk like that, so she did. I'm not saying Laurel doesn't think she's badass, she just looks awkward and inexperienced, which she is.

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Chaser

Chaser

I'm 100% against Laurel input on Olicity. The girls can find something else to talk about. That being said… Yes that would be Hilarious. Lol

 

The more I think about it the more I want Oliver to get word to the Team that he is alive, but will not come back. And when he does come back, he is allied with Ra's or something. But in that case I would want Diggle and Roy to be pissed off as well. Though maybe they are but they just let Felicity at him.

 

Now every scene with Laurel and the Bo-Staff is going to have a Mr. Roboto theme. Lol 

 

Maybe after Diggle tells her she is not her sister she says goes for the baton instead. Cause choice of weapons makes it easier to tell them apart.

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jay741982

jay741982

People ought to flood MGS twitter and tell him this season is too fucking depressing.I'm sorry but this show does not need to be this depressing Oliver and Felicity do not need to be at odds and no one needs to be sacrificed for another charcter

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

I'm 100% against Laurel input on Olicity. The girls can find something else to talk about. That being said… Yes that would be Hilarious. Lol

The more I think about it the more I want Oliver to get word to the Team that he is alive, but will not come back. And when he does come back, he is allied with Ra's or something. But in that case I would want Diggle and Roy to be pissed off as well. Though maybe they are but they just let Felicity at him.

Now every scene with Laurel and the Bo-Staff is going to have a Mr. Roboto theme. Lol

Maybe after Diggle tells her she is not her sister she says goes for the baton instead. Cause choice of weapons makes it easier to tell them apart.

I think you might be right about Oliver letting them know he's alive and not coming back right away. And regarding the baton, it's probably easier to use without training.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

MG said on Tumblr that Oliver wasn't literally dead but just very badly hurt, and that Maseo was speaking "poetically" when he told Oliver that he brought his wife there to bring Oliver "back to life."  I wonder if MG is being truthful or if he's trying to fool us.

 

It also sounds as if MG and JB have differing views on whether or not Malcolm cares for Oliver.

Edited by tv echo
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Guest

Guest

I'm with you guys. This show used to strike the balance quite well with the darkness and the light. There was light character moments, brief moments of reprieve from the darkness of what was happening overall. This season has lost that balance, IMO. 

 

Nothing will ever make me dislike Felicity and I'm fine with there being angst between Oliver and Felicity but my only hope is that whatever comes between them is in character or at least makes sense. If I come away thinking WTF, then I'll be worried. It's just a shame they've had to make them so angsty because that's not really what makes them work. And I really didn't want them to stop talking or being 'them' but as long as there's some forward momentum in their relationship I can't really be too mad about that. But damn, Olicity being on the outs from 312 to 318 (presumably, I mean we have no real idea) is a really long time. Ouch. Not looking forward to that tbh.

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Guest

Guest

Oh and I watched the EP preview of 311 and I'm glad they're actually confronting the fact that Laurel is just a lawyer and has no training but I don't have any faith that won't be dropped after an episode or two. IMO, Laurel's transformation to BC should be a season long process, at least. A trilogy is just not good enough. In fact, even after one season I'd still expect her to not be very good. I mean, we were shown Oliver trying and failing to smash through a window in the 310 flashbacks and that's after two years of him running around and training on the island. If Oliver's still learning after two plus years, so should Laurel. It's actually ridiculous what they're expecting us to believe with this.

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Password

Password

(edited)

I've been mostly OK with how Olicity has been handled this season, but I agree that they're just not about the angst. At all. It's what drew me to them in the first place.

Not going to lie, ep 11 sounds crap. None of what was mentioned made me think "ooh yeah I want that". It actually did the opposite. Ah well.

Edited by Limbo
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Sunshine

Sunshine

(edited)

MG doesn't think this season has been all dark.  When he responded to someone on tumblr bout this he basically said (paraphrasing) Are we watching the same show?  IMO MG thinks the Felicity & Ray scenes are the light or comedic scenes.    

Edited by Sunshine
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Guest

Guest

Ugh, the Ray and Felicity scenes are actually like white noise which is not in the slightest bit comedic IMO. That dude has added nothing to this show. Sorry not sorry at all. 

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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

(edited)

MG doesn't think this season has been all dark.  When he responded to someone on tumblr bout this he basically said (paraphrasing) Are we watching the same show?  IMO MG thinks the Felicity & Ray scenes are the light or comedic scenes.    

I read that response differently--the question was whether the show was going to get any lighter, and his response of "have you seen this show?" meant that it's dark and going to stay dark. But I just disagree that it has ever been as grim as the stretch from 220-310. I mean, Tommy was the other major death on the show, and that happened in a finale, so there wasn't as much of a grief hangover as there was after Moira, Sara, now Oliver.

 

As far as the rest of his responses, I wonder if he realizes that he contradicted himself w/r/t Malcolm's plan for Oliver. On the one hand, someone asks why Malcolm would send Oliver if he thought he would be killed, to which MG says Malcolm doesn't give a shit. Then later he says that Malcolm was counting on Oliver beating Ra's. Ummm...?

Edited by Carrie Ann
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

I actually don't think Oliver and Felicity have been very angsty at all. There have been a few moments, but they've operated mostly the same as they always have, even though there is a certain lightness that's been missing. I noticed it especially in 2-4, but they've been relatively fine since. In fact, everything that could've been angsty really hasn't been. Oliver could've lost his shit and made a big deal about seeing Felicity kiss Ray, but he didn't. Felicity could be pining away for him but she's not. Oliver could hide how he feels about Felicity because he's hurt because he thinks she's with Ray, but he isn't. He's being straightforward with his feelings, even though he still appears to be being pigheaded about being with her, but I don't think that's out of character, and I certainly expected it. And I actually believe that whatever it is that upsets her in 12 that MG thinks will make us be angry will not be that bad and will actually make sense. Honestly, out of every issue I have with this show, how they're handling Oliver and Felicity really isn't one of them.

 

I don't think Ray and Felicity's scenes are particularly light or comical, though, even though that's how they're always sold. One of the things I like most about Felicity in her scenes with other people is that she brings out a different side of them usually, because she's mostly around angsty, no-nonsense types. Felicity and Ray don't bring anything out of each other that I wouldn't see with anyone else, I don't think. Apart from the fact that Felicity seems to be crying half the time she's around Ray and I'm not at all interested that. I'd like their scenes more if I a) ever got to see Ray talk to someone that wasn't Felicity, and b) I wasn't worried that the creep factor might start setting in at any moment. 

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blixie

blixie

That's why I'm not particularly interested in his socratic spoiler fest. I remember getting spoilers from actual scripts and live feeds, I or at least non-PR driven sources, I liked those days better.

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jay741982

jay741982

MG isnt seeing it We know this show isn't that light but its nice to get light moments and fans don't want light moments with Felicity and Ray we want some lightness between her and Oliver. This angst is partly dragging the show. God his answer about O and F needing to get their crap together before being blissfully happy angers me

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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

The show is dark because Guggenheim likes to pretend he's been given permission to write Batman. And he seems to think that if he rips off enough ideas from old Batman comics and the Nolan movies, everyone else will believe that lame, hokey old Green Arrow is as super awesome cool as Batman.

 

What he doesn't seem to realise though, is this version of Oliver Queen was actually interesting and layered and seemed to be able to balance grimness with a lightness of touch and elements of ego-puncturing at just the right times. But I guess the writers who actually understood things of relative subtlety all left the show, and the man holding the bag has big, clumsy hamfists that just mash away at the computer keyboard in the hopes of producing something filmable.

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

I agree that the angst isn't on the Oliver/Felicity storyline, that's more... frustrating than it is depressing.

It's everything else that's just too fucking moody. Moira died, Sara died, Roy killed a cop, Laurel got brutalized, Malcolm mindraped Thea, Thea killed Sara, Quentin is one bad news away from total heart failure, Oliver died. The few character emotional victories were Felicity making up with her mom, and Dig/Lyla. But even some of the light stuff is motivated by loss, like baby Sara's name, and Crazy Eyes copycatting Tony Stark. It's not well balanced.

However. I'm now afraid that the last thing they can still turn über angsty is Oliver/Felicity. I was hoping Oliver returning would be a emotional victory for every character who loves him, but apparently it's gonna make Felicity step back from him, and even if I agree with her reasoning, I don't know if I can enjoy a rift between them for too long, because I know it's a stall tactic.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

However. I'm now afraid that the last thing they can still turn über angsty is Oliver/Felicity. I was hoping Oliver returning would be a emotional victory for every character who loves him, but apparently it's gonna make Felicity step back from him, and even if I agree with her reasoning, I don't know if I can enjoy a rift between them for too long, because I know it's a stall tactic.

 

I'm really curious as to the circumstances around Oliver's return, made even more (morbidly) curious by this answer of MG's on Tumblr:

 

-- Asked if Oliver's return will be an intense or a happy moment, MG says: "Neither."

 

Obviously I can't judge not knowing the circumstances, but...what? I don't even think this is an Oliver/Felicity thing, otherwise I believe he would've specified just to be an a-hole, like "happy for some, not for others," or something along those lines. Do they not even get a moment of happiness/relief knowing that he's alive? Or does that come earlier (when he somehow gets word to them that he's not dead), and his return is then marred by what will probably be some kind of dumb agreement he has to make in order to get home? Is it because his return means Ra's is coming? I just don't understand, and should probably stop reading his tumblr spoilers. Or at least stop trying to make sense of any of them.

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ban1o

ban1o

Yeah I'm confused by that. Like you would think when he initially returns it would be a happy moment. Like he just "came back from the dead" like is he saying Diggle, Roy, Laurel, Thea and Felicity aren't happy to see him?

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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The show is dark because Guggenheim likes to pretend he's been given permission to write Batman. And he seems to think that if he rips off enough ideas from old Batman comics and the Nolan movies, everyone else will believe that lame, hokey old Green Arrow is as super awesome cool as Batman.

 

What he doesn't seem to realise though, is this version of Oliver Queen was actually interesting and layered and seemed to be able to balance grimness with a lightness of touch and elements of ego-puncturing at just the right times. But I guess the writers who actually understood things of relative subtlety all left the show, and the man holding the bag has big, clumsy hamfists that just mash away at the computer keyboard in the hopes of producing something filmable.

I've decided that Brick killed Malcolm's wife and that there will be a Brick/Malcolm confrontation that involves the line "you made me the man I am today". Cause you know, it's an "homage" to Burton's Batman.
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Ariah

Ariah

It's almost obvious that Brick or one of his close associates killed Rebecca Merlyn.

 

And Oliver will probably return just in time to stop Malcolm from killing Brick (no-kill rule!), thus earning a death-stare from everyone involved.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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It's almost obvious that Brick or one of his close associates killed Rebecca Merlyn.

 

And Oliver will probably return just in time to stop Malcolm from killing Brick (no-kill rule!), thus earning a death-stare from everyone involved.

oh yeah, I'm not claiming some super insightful knowledge. It's beyond obvious they're going with this trope. I was more commenting on their desire to rip-off everything Batman. This is the perfect opportunity to rip off Burton.
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Chaser

Chaser

It does sound like that a blanket reuion thing and not just this person and that person. Which is weird for sure. How is not intense when someone comes back from the dead? How are you not happy to see a loved one again?

 

I think it also highlights the awkardness of the description. You would think it would emphasis the whole 'Oliver is back for the Dead OMG' aspect. Insteads its 'Oliver is back and he's mad because things changed.'

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calliope1975

calliope1975

I didn't think they could top 2B's depressing, grimdark block of sadness, but it seems like they're going to give it the ole college try. So Oliver's going to come back and what, everyone's going to be irritated with him that he's messing up their new routine? I swear, these EPs get off on breaking this poor guy and kicking him while he's down while simultaneously keeping him down. He gets, like, one win a season now, but only in the finale. 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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My guess is Felicity is going to support Laurel becoming BC. Just wait.

HAH! So Olicity doesn't happen in 312/313 because of Laurel? No wonder MG says he needs to stay off of twitter. Might also want to go into Witness Protection while he's at it LOL.
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Guest

Guest

HAH! So Olicity doesn't happen in 312/313 because of Laurel? No wonder MG says he needs to stay off of twitter. Might also want to go into Witness Protection while he's at it LOL.

 

Wait. What? I didn't mean Laurel would come between Olicity but my first thought was Felicity is supposedly going to give Laurel advice and support. I didn't even think of Oliver tbh.

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HighHopes

HighHopes

Wait. What? I didn't mean Laurel would come between Olicity but my first thought was Felicity is supposedly going to give Laurel advice and support. I didn't even think of Oliver tbh.

 

I'm thinking it will play out like Oliver is super against Laurel fighting, Felicity is supportive of it, cue huge disagreement/fight/rift between Oliver and Felicity. Ta Da!! Ladies supporting ladies/female friendships + stalling Olicity + not using Ray Palmer all in one. Three birds with one stone. 

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