Spoiler Discussion Thread

[SmallScreenDiva]

Count me among those who want to see Felicity in a quiet rage. I'd love to see that super virus of Felicity's come into play again. For her to use against Malcolm, to steal his fortune (hey, Arrowcave petty cash must be running low by now — oh and the Season 2.5 comics FINALLY mentions how it's being funded).

[calliope1975]

Yeah. I think my one thread of hope for these episodes of doom and gloom and Arrowless is if Felicity, Diggle and Roy take on Malcolm to save Thea's soul FOR Oliver, in his honor. THAT I'd like to watch. Seeing any other people getting new Halloween costumes? Zzzzzzyawn.

 

THIS would make me excited about the upcoming episodes. Diggle and Felicity appealing to Thea's head and Roy to her heart. I would absolutely be excited to see that. I'm just not sure that's what we're going to get. 

 

I'd also love to see Felicity go all loud voice on Malcolm. Sure, he might stab her for it, but I suspect he'd respect her. 

Edited January 5, 2015 by calliope1975

[apinknightmare]

To your first point about Laurel's suit--it's going to be extra awkward if they don't address where it came from after showing Oliver getting his upgraded by Cisco in 308, and the Arrow 2.5 comic that came out today showed Oliver giving Roy his suit too. I mean, yeah, we don't ever see them ordering the parts, but we know they do this. So who gave Laurel the contact for her suit? Who came up with the specs? I really don't want that to be Felicity, for about a million reasons, but seriously who else is there? I guess she could just take Sara's bloody suit to some random person and be like, "Hmm, like this, only I hate these pants...let's add more buckles!!!"

 

To your second point--now I kind of want Team Arrow to become Thea's family, the way they have become Oliver's. That's the kind of new member integration that makes sense for me, on a character level and a plot level. Not automatically, but over time, it would be nice to see her find her place with them.

 

 

"Hmm, like this, only I hate these pants...let's add more buckles!!!"

 

In my head, this is the new version of "more cowbell!"

 

If there's some situation in town that makes the team so desperate that they're willing to put someone from the middle school squad on the varsity team, maybe Felicity does get her the costume. It hurts to think about, honestly. 

 

And I agree with Thea eventually finding family with the team. I really like the thought of that much, much better than evil Thea with no agency because Malcolm's been brainwashing the hell out of her/feeding her herbs that make her unable to remember the things that she does.

Edited January 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

Thea finding family like Oliver did would honestly make it so much better.

[statsgirl]

I can't decide if I want Felicity to be angry at Thea at first and then decide she needs saving from Malcolm, or just go straight into talking Diggle into bringing her into the Arrow Family. partly to protect her from Merlyn and partly because that's what Oliver would have wanted.  I imagine Roy would want her to know -- at least he'd have an excuse for not telling her last season.

 

The idea of Felicity and Diggle feeling they need to protect Thea, and Thea angry and resisting and going to Malcolm, could be some good TV.

Felicity and the rest of Team Arrow interacting with Thea over Oliver's death is making me excited for the episode again.

 

 But I don't want Felicity to be Laurel-angry, I want Felicity to be completely devastated...and then go Mafia-Wife on Malcolm. Really, though the 'great scene' could be nothing more then Laurel calling Felicity to help her out when she gets into trouble again. 

Yeah, I'm betting that this is going to be it, that Laurel is going to call on Felicity for help and Felicity will talk Diggle and Roy into helping her, and that's how we get to BC and Arsenal working together.

 

 

Back to how I want Felicity to be full of rage: I would also love it if she refused to help Laurel because Oliver didn't want her to go down this road, but more importantly because of Quentin. As we've all pointed out, if Laurel truly cared about his health and happiness, she wouldn't follow in her sister's footsteps. It would be great if Felicity was like, "Do this, and I'll go directly to your father and tell him that Sara's dead and you're SWF-ing her. Actually, forget it, I'm gonna do that anyway." It won't happen, but it would be so, so sweet.

I'd love that too. We know Felicity is going to end up helping Laurel because that's how she's written, but I hope she gets to go ragey on Laurel first.

 

And her scenes with Palmer?  Only about making his new suit, please.

Edited January 5, 2015 by statsgirl

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Just read the new TV Line spoiler posted by statsgirl.  Wow, MG is really pushing the next 3 episodes hard ("among the best we've ever done" and "incredibly compelling")!

 

 

 

I used Google translate to decipher what he is talking about. It kicked back "guaranteed to be a disappointing snooze fest the majority of the fans don't want to see." 

 

For the love of bows and arrows, if the show wasn't called Arrow I'd wonder if Amell pissed someone off. The best ever done and incredibly compelling was all done while he was in a different country. Sucks to be him. Why don't they tell us how they really feel about the Arrow.

[apinknightmare]

I used Google translate to decipher what he is talking about. It kicked back "guaranteed to be a disappointing snooze fest the majority of the fans don't want to see." 

 

For the love of bows and arrows, if the show wasn't called Arrow I'd wonder if Amell pissed someone off. The best ever done and incredibly compelling was all done while he was in a different country. Sucks to be him. Why don't they tell us how they really feel about the Arrow.

 

I think he (Stephen) knows it's going to take some salesmanship to get people to want to tune in after Oliver "died" (didn't he himself call them some of the best eps the show has ever done?). 3x10 is the easiest of the bunch, because people will want to see the aftermath and a lot of them might be expecting him to come back. 3x11 and 3x12 are going to be the toughest, since they've put an unpopular character on an arc that's bound to get the focus, and people will probably get frustrated when they tune in and present-day Oliver is nowhere to be seen. I don't think there will be a steep drop in viewership or anything, but they've got to get out ahead of it, regardless. Not sure what the EPs could say about it - it's not like they can say, 'tune in because you have to get through this to get to the good stuff.'

Edited January 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Belinea]

While I am not at all a fan of MG's statement, I suspect that in all fairness even he knows that they are fighting an uphill battle here. People are unsure what to expect and the fact that they went ahead and tied the upcoming storyline strongly to LL/BC doesn't make everyone happy. So of course he has to sell it as spectacular hours of television. I don't expect him to say "well those are some good episodes, just stick with us. Maybe you will be pleasantly surprised" He should say that but first of all I doubt it is his style and even then people would maybe interpret it in a negative way as well. I think they should have just not gone ahead with their Laurel trilogy statements. That way they wouldn't have to try as hard now. 

 

It's PR and they usually oversell it. I still expect tons of Laurel. Regardless of the contradicting statements. I just hope that after the 3 episodes are over, Oliver will actually be back and not only flashbacks. (SA should just shoot his wine documentaries during hiatus and everything will work out :-) ;-) )

3x14 looks like an episode with lots of flashbacks that I never really had any interest in. (Laurel/Tommy and Thea at school ). 

[Happy Harpy]

The little devil on my left shoulder wants the rating to tank proportionally to the epic shyte that the opening of 3-B seems poised to be, according to spoilers. I just checked TVLine and what picture illustrates Arrow's return? Half-Baked Canary.

 

Seriously. If it were season 7 or 8, if Team Arrow scenes had lost their mojo and weren't magically freaking writing themselves to be pure tiger winning awesomeness and twenty bags of golden crispy chips, if there were no more stories to tell about Oliver, Diggle and Felicity, if there were no other fan favorite -Her Mighty Awesomeness Nyssa, Quentin, Sin, Lyla, One Hit Wonder Donna Smoak, Slade in spite of the Triangle of Doom 2: the Return of the Nonsense, Moira who shouldn't be dead, Sara who shouldn't be dead, My Walteeeer! and even Malcolm if he was used as well as he was in S1- whose potential could be exploited, I could understand why the writers might have to turn to "polarizing" characters in order to bring fresh blood and unexploited angles to the show and prepare its future. Edit: I personally would add Thea, Tommy and Helena to that list but unfortunately I don't think they are, or were during their run, as love(d) as I wish(ed) they were.

 

But here? They're putting the main character on the backburner in order to promote the polarizing or not-so-fan-favorite (imo) one(s), while ignoring the fan favorite, aren't they? This picture reinforced my feeling that the Laurel Trilogy is indeed happening, and that Felicity, Diggle and even Thea will only be on the side; you know, it's like those bad comedies where the couple of good one-liners are on the trailer to try and hide the suckiness of it all.

I might be wrong, after all it's only speculation on contradictory and scarce spoilers. But I'm under the impression that the writers are unecessarily feeding me stale bread, because they love it stale and want to impose it this way. Or they want to save the fresh from the oven yummy one for later, not realizing that oops, it will be stale, too, by the time they finally go for it. OK, stale bread can turn into delicious French toast...but buckles aren't what it takes to make the recipe tasty, are they?

 

The little devil also whispers to me that because of syndication, Arrow will get renewed and it probably explains why the writers are so willing to play with fire. So if the ratings dropped, it would just be a warning and have no consequenses, right? Right?

 

Nevertheless, the little angel on my right shoulder reminds me that when viewers leave a show, it's hard to get them back. It reminds me that the cast and crew are working very hard, and deserve better. It reminds me that once a buzzy/trendy show loses the buzz because of extreme sucking *cough* Heroes*cough*, it's extremely rare that it gets its groove back with audience and media, and being on the CW, Arrow needs the buzz.

The little angel won't make me watch, because I'm no saint and the spoilers inspire me no trust at all...hey, fool me once with S2-B...But part of me hopes that 1) creatively, it won't be the disaster I fear and 2) the viewers who, like me, don't like the shape the show seems to take according to the spoilers are aware that what Arrow does well, it still does great, and are still willing to give it a chance in case the orientation changes.

(Of course, there's also a chance that many people love and enjoy the direction that the spoilers hint at, and the ratings will follow! Bye for me then, but good for them!).

Edited January 5, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Happy Harpy]

I don't expect him to say "well those are some good episodes, just stick with us. Maybe you will be pleasantly surprised" 

It's PR and they usually oversell it.

I think he should have said that. Imo, one big problem with Laurel was always the overselling/overhyping it. I wouldn't make people who don't like her happy about her, it would be hypocrite to pretend otherwise. But it wouldn't give them so much ammo, and wouldn't rub them the wrong way. Imo, if the writers accepted that Laurel coud be just decent, just even "meh" to start with -and look at The Calm thread, it was still possible before Sara died- instead of going for awesome, part of their dilemma might be solved. Jmho!

Edited January 5, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Danny Franks]

Does Guggenheim really not see how he's delivering such backhanded insults to his star, with quotes like that? The episodes without Stephen Amell are the best they've done? Wow. If Stephen Amell was one of these actors who is so thinskinned that they see criticism in everything, then I'd say things on the Arrow set would be getting pretty awkward, right about now.

 

We know he's trying to fight a forest fire with a thimble full of water, but honestly, I think he'd be better off just not saying anything. It was his dumb fucking idea to do a Laurel trilogy, and now he's desperately trying to prop it up any way he can. Did he seriously not realise how a large, vocal section of the fanbase would react to hearing that they had lots of Laurel to look forward to? But as has been said, this stuff will come back to bite him anyway, because the amount of effusive praise thrown Katie Cassidy's way in the past left them with egg on their faces. I still don't even know what scene it was that was supposed to be Emmy-worthy. Was it the one where Oliver bitched her out for being a dick and she just stood there, as blank faced as ever?

[apinknightmare]

Does Guggenheim really not see how he's delivering such backhanded insults to his star, with quotes like that? The episodes without Stephen Amell are the best they've done? Wow. If Stephen Amell was one of these actors who is so thinskinned that they see criticism in everything, then I'd say things on the Arrow set would be getting pretty awkward, right about now.

 

Stephen himself said these were some of the best eps they've ever done, and the show is about more than one person, blah, blah, blah. I think it's just the company line regarding this arc.

[TanyaKay]

If the show delivers Felicity and her calm rage like she is Moira 2.0 and if they do it well, I may forgive them for killing the original HBIC Moira Queen. I may even look the other way when they are showing buckle canary buckling or unbuckling her outfit.

[Morrigan2575]

Stephen himself said these were some of the best eps they've ever done, and the show is about more than one person, blah, blah, blah. I think it's just the company line regarding this arc.

he calls 3-4 shows per year the bestest episode ever...and usually I disagree...looking at you The Promise.

Frankly, claiming bestest eva! just tells me they're over compensating or have a totally different take on "good".

[apinknightmare]

he calls 3-4 shows per year the bestest episode ever...and usually I disagree...looking at you The Promise.

Frankly, claiming bestest eva! just tells me they're over compensating or have a totally different take on "good".

Yeah, I don't BELIEVE him, I just don't think he'd be upset by the EPs praising those episodes he's not in as some of the best ever, because he's said the exact same thing.

[Menrva]

All of this reminds me of those lines from "The Princess Bride":

 

"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[statsgirl]

I think he (Stephen) knows it's going to take some salesmanship to get people to want to tune in after Oliver "died" (didn't he himself call them some of the best eps the show has ever done?). 3x10 is the easiest of the bunch, because people will want to see the aftermath and a lot of them might be expecting him to come back. 3x11 and 3x12 are going to be the toughest, since they've put an unpopular character on an arc that's bound to get the focus, and people will probably get frustrated when they tune in and present-day Oliver is nowhere to be seen. 

I can understand to some extent why they thought that they had to have Oliver gone to have Black Canary and Arsenal come into their own.  I just don't understand why they aren't doing it better.

 

For Roy, yeah, it makes sense.  Oliver has been training him for a year now and they botched it last season with cutting his scenes and putting too much emphasis on Sara and Slade and the Land Family Drama (the scene with Roy fighting Nyssa for get Dinah back is great) so it makes sense that he steps up when Oliver is gone because if Oliver is there, there really isn't much need for him to take a pivotal role.  But it's way too soon for Laurel to become the Black Canary, both in fighting skills and because there's been zero development in her to get the empathy and altruism that a superhero needs  She's still out there because she wants to beat someone up because of Sara, and as MG said, she's still so unskilled that she's going to get beaten up herself.

 

Do they think that we will feel sympathy for Laurel when she gets beaten up?  Cuz it doesn't really work like that, you have to like the person to start with to feel sympathetic when they get hurt.

 

It would have been so easy to make Laurel a real part of Team Arrow while Oliver is gone. Start with keeping her a lawyer who helps the Team, all of the Team not just Oliver (and who invited Diggle and Felicity to the press conference too).  Then have her being nice to the team even though she's frantic to find Sara's killer.  Have her ask, not tell, Felicity if she could run the check on girlfriend-beater, and thank her afterwards with a gift or some small token acknowledging that yes, Felicity did do her a favor. Have Laurel interact more with the Team instead of only speaking to them when she wants something, and when Oliver disappears, she offers her help, any help she can provide it's their to ask for.  It's not hard to write.

 

Unless they really do want Laurel not to fit in with Team Arrow and have all that resentment (theirs and mine) around. But I really can't think why the EPs would think that's a better story.

[Ariah]

A., I don't believe Guggenheim when he says something is either a 9 or one of the best up to date. Just no. Besides, insisting your show can be "the best" without your lead is shooting yourself in a foot while running from a Tiger. Not the brightest idea.

 

B., I'm afraid they will make this Felicity + Laurel scene so that we the audience will be forced to like Laurel. Felicity has been used to prop various people before. Sometimes it worked (Barry, Cisco, Caitlin), sometimes it didn't (Palmer). Guess which instance this will be?

 

I'm also afraid the scene will involve Laurel being the one more experienced with grief, since she has lost her "Ollie" before and we'll be treated to texts like "I know how you feel" / "I couldn't sleep for weeks when Gambit went down" / "I could see him in other men on the street".

[Password]

since she has lost her "Ollie" before and we'll be treated to texts like "I know how you feel" / "I couldn't sleep for weeks when Gambit went down" / "I could see him in other men on the street".

Oh gosh this made me laugh.

[NumberCruncher]

I'm also afraid the scene will involve Laurel being the one more experienced with grief, since she has lost her "Ollie" before and we'll be treated to texts like "I know how you feel" / "I couldn't sleep for weeks when Gambit went down" / "I could see him in other men on the street".

Ugh...please no. I cannot think of a cheesier plotline then the two of them sharing their grief over the man they loved. *gags* Also it completely fails the Bechdel test on so many levels it would be a crime.

[tv echo]

First, whenever a producer praises his own show, it always sounds so self-serving.  It's like complimenting yourself.  There's more legitimacy if the praise comes from an independent third party.

 

Second, I found the choice of words odd - "'makes it necessary' for Laurel to don the Canary costume".  Sounds like Laurel had no choice and was forced into it.  In other words, don't blame Laurel - she had no choice but to become the BC (with little training).  I posted an article in another thread positing how Laurel is a reactive character.  This seems consistent with that.  Also, the spoiler says "the Canary costume" and not the "Black Canary costume".  Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but it sounds like Laurel's putting on her version of Sara's costume, lending credence to the theory that she's trying to fool someone into thinking she's Sara/Canary.  Maybe we'll get another MG interview later on that backtracks on Laurel becoming the BC so soon, in which he 'clarifies' that she's not the Black Canary yet (just like Oliver's not Green Arrow yet), but just starting on that journey.

 

I still don't understand why Laurel has to become the Black Canary just because her name is Dinah Laurel Lance.  If it's okay to change comic book canon to not make the Black Canary an expert martial artist, then why is it not okay to change comic book canon to make Sara Lance the Black Canary?  Even if Laurel starts taking martial arts lessons at the age of 30, she'll never be as good as others who have taken martial arts lessons for years.

Edited January 6, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Arrow's version of Dinah Laurel Lance is the worst version I've ever seen. I have no idea why they are so focused on making her THE BC just because she has the right name. 

 

This show is like any alternate universe story. Different things happen which produce different outcomes. In Arrow it was very easy to go with Dinah Lance the first never became Black Canary and it was the presumed dead second daughter Sara, that took on the name. Just like Arrow's version of Oliver Queen was on an island for two years where he befriended Slade Wilson and Shado, instead of just being enemies. And he has a little sister and his mother lived and was a badass in her own right. Then instead of just taking in Roy, Oliver found a team with John Diggle and Felicity Smoak. All of that didn't happen in the previous comics.

 

Now Diggle and Felicity are in the comics, although NewComicFelicity seems like a cross between Felicity and Sara. While Dinah Laurel Lance does not exist in the new comic world.

 

That brings the question, why is it only Dinah Laurel Lance that has to follow the comics, when no else does?

Edited January 6, 2015 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

That brings the question, why is it only Dinah Laurel Lance that has to follow the comics, when no else does?

 

 

If I had to guess, I would say it is because they are floundering with Laurel's character. They are having such a hard time finding a way to make her relevant or at least interesting they have to fall back on comics! because they basically have no other options available.

[apinknightmare]

Question: When MG said that Laurel was going to be the worst fighter out of everyone who goes out in the field, and that she's not going to be very good at being BC, and that she's going to find out that it takes more than a suit to make a hero and she's going to have to find another way to be a hero, what do you think that means? 

 

Do you think it'll all be tied up in those three eps of her arc (Suzanne Gomez did tweet that the writers had touched on "every part of a superhero's journey," or some other kind of nonsense), or do you think that she's going to decide that superheroing isn't for her, at least in the vigilante sense, and rededicate herself to the law? Or is she going to decide she's not ready, then train some more, and be "ready" at the end of the season? Or do you think that was just talk that won't be reflected in the narrative?

[SonofaBiscuit]

A., I don't believe Guggenheim when he says something is either a 9 or one of the best up to date. Just no. Besides, insisting your show can be "the best" without your lead is shooting yourself in a foot while running from a Tiger. Not the brightest idea.

 

 

I don't believe Guggenheim period :)  So when he says that this upcoming trilogy is some of the best episodes they've ever done, I'm expecting them to actually be awful (I remember "best episode ever" The Promise, and how much I hated that one).  And when he says it's NOT a Laurel trilogy, I'm expecting there to be lots and lots of Laurel.  In fact, more Laurel per episode than I can actually tolerate.

[tv echo]

Hmm, maybe Guggenheim needs to issue another protestation that the next 3 eps. are not - definitely, absolutely not - a BC arc, since no one appears to be listening...

... while Laurel will take up the mantle of Black Canary in what's expected to be the first of a three-part storyline producers have referred to as the "Canary Trilogy."

http://comicbook.com/2014/12/31/arrow-midseason-premiere-left-behind-official-synopsis-released/

 

I doubt very much that Laurel will give up superheroing, but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised if that happens.

Edited January 6, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

Do you think it'll all be tied up in those three eps of her arc (Suzanne Gomez did tweet that the writers had touched on "every part of a superhero's journey," or some other kind of nonsense), or do you think that she's going to decide that superheroing isn't for her, at least in the vigilante sense, and rededicate herself to the law? Or is she going to decide she's not ready, then train some more, and be "ready" at the end of the season? Or do you think that was just talk that won't be reflected in the narrative?

I won't be surprised if she does go through a full superhero journey in 310-311-312, and at the end of 312 she either decides not to do it, or Oliver comes back and she feels like she doesn't have to anymore... Only to go back to being a lawyer in 313, but Vertigo strikes, she hallucinates Sara telling her to "embrace her destiny" or some other foolery, and presto Black Canary. That episode being called "Canaries", and the video from the set with Laurel in lawyer mode taking down an armed dude with a single punch? Kinda hints at a laywer vs. vigilante, can she do both thing, like that is her graduation episode, so to speak.

[chaos is welcome]

Hmm, I wonder if someone demands to ONLY speak to the canary?  Except, wait, Sara was NOT the black canary, per everyone on the show now.  So how can Laurel take up the mantle of the BLACK CANARY???  I give up show.

 

I envision a Laurel/Felicity grief convo going "How do you move on?"/Laurel - "You just do." / Felicity - "Well I can't."  Anything else will make me head desk. Maybe Laurel will encourage her to bang the closest approximation can find, which for her was Tommy and for Felicity is Ray.  I am kidding, of course, but with these guys . . .

[Orion]

Question: When MG said that Laurel was going to be the worst fighter out of everyone who goes out in the field, and that she's not going to be very good at being BC, and that she's going to find out that it takes more than a suit to make a hero and she's going to have to find another way to be a hero, what do you think that means? 

 

Do you think it'll all be tied up in those three eps of her arc (Suzanne Gomez did tweet that the writers had touched on "every part of a superhero's journey," or some other kind of nonsense), or do you think that she's going to decide that superheroing isn't for her, at least in the vigilante sense, and rededicate herself to the law? Or is she going to decide she's not ready, then train some more, and be "ready" at the end of the season? Or do you think that was just talk that won't be reflected in the narrative?

 

I have to admit that quote from Suzanne Gomez is really interesting and was one of the only things recently that have gotten my attention beyond making me want to throw things.

 

If she's right and it's not PR spin, which it definitely could be, what story has all elements of a hero's journey touched on three episodes. Where does the story go from there? Are they just going to continue to trot out a Laurel centric block of episodes every year and have her touch on those elements again and again until we all scream "Uncle"?

 

We're in year 8 of Oliver's journey and he hasn't even reached the mid way points on his elements of a hero's journey checklist. But Laurel's going to hit all of those points in three episodes?

 

If she's not going to decide to go back to being a lawyer and decide that playing dress up isn't for her than I have no idea what they are doing.

 

Putting aside my personal feelings for Laurel, that's just not how you tell a story.  No one solves the mystery, saves the day, and gets the girl by chapter 3.  They are already removing her milestone moments, barely touching on hearing a call to arms,  finding a mentor, hardly any overt hardship training, selecting a weapon because of emotional importance, receiving her mask, and getting her color. All things this show established as important and things that must be earned. That's the explanation they keep giving us for why Diggle can't wear a mask. Because his crucible happening in the past and we missed his transformation into a hero. 

 

Honestly, I've never seen a show undermine all of it's characters to raise one up.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Orion

[statsgirl]

Maybe they really do have no clue what to do with her and that's why all her milestones are coming in a four episode trilogy.  (Oh, MG and AK, can't even get that one right.)  They're hoping this will take and people will like her as the Black Canary and want her back, but just in case viewers don't like her, they're getting it all wrapped up in one swoop?

 

I'm still baffled why they didn't write Laurel's journey to Black Canary better.  It's true the chemistry with Oliver was awful and Laurier didn't fly but the Black Canary stuff could easily have been written much better.

 

I won't be surprised if she does go through a full superhero journey in 310-311-312, and at the end of 312 she either decides not to do it, or Oliver comes back and she feels like she doesn't have to anymore... Only to go back to being a lawyer in 313, but Vertigo strikes, she hallucinates Sara telling her to "embrace her destiny" or some other foolery, and presto Black Canary. That episode being called "Canaries", and the video from the set with Laurel in lawyer mode taking down an armed dude with a single punch? Kinda hints at a laywer vs. vigilante, can she do both thing, like that is her graduation episode, so to speak.

 

There is no way she's going to not be the Black Canary permanently but I can see this happening.  Yet another character, this time Sara metaphorically, thrown under the bus for Laurel.   Freud would have had a field day with this.

 

I'm also afraid the scene will involve Laurel being the one more experienced with grief, since she has lost her "Ollie" before and we'll be treated to texts like "I know how you feel" / "I couldn't sleep for weeks when Gambit went down" / "I could see him in other men on the street".

 

"You know, there was this one time when I was meeting Tommy, and there was a guy with a really really bad haircut and he was there with a Japanese guy in a suit and I just couldn't stop thinking of Oliver."

 

The writers will conveniently forget how furious Laurel was at Oliver for cheating on her with Sara and just have her remembering being sad.

 

If they equate Tommy/Laurel to Oliver/Felicity, I might be able to take it.

[looptab]

Another problem is that an "epic" scene between Diggle and Laurel is totally unearned because she's yet to notice his existence.  

Yet he has named his daughter after her deceased sister..must be because of that shoulder touch she gave him in the 2.5 comics! *rolls eyes* *head-desk*

 

Seriously, the only way I could stand this supposedly emotional Diggle/Laurel scene is if she's being the pain in the ass we all know she is and Diggle just loses it and tells her to STFU, and then the poor man is in full-on grief for his dead friend/brother.

 

I won't buy any scene where Felicity is asking for Laurel's advice on grieving, not even just rhetorically, because 305 made sure we knew she already knew what it means to lose someone she loves.

[Chaser]

The only huge NO for me in regards to the Diggle/Laurel scene is Diggle grieving with Laurel. If Laurel grieves with Diggle its one thing, because who else is there but Team Arrow? But I can't take Diggle breaking down with Laurel. Its a massive WTF. But since Laurel isn't the grieving type, I'm leaning towards the conversation being about Sara/Andy and being consumed with revenge. Addressing her reckless behavior would also be needed. Diggle is the sage of the show, so to me thats the scene that would make sense.

 

Laurel and Felicity. I want no advice giving, no bonding over grief, no pretending Laurel understands what Felicity is going thru (like I said before, vastly different experiences and we haven't seen any personal interaction to suggest Laurel knows about Oliver/Felicity). At this point a 'big' moment between them would just be an acknowledgement that Felicity is more then a personal computer. An actual HELLO between the two would be huge.

 

I really can't understand why we haven't had a conversation between Laurel and Diggle/Felicity. Seriously, 9 episodes in and nothing.

Edited January 6, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[statsgirl]

I just can't wrap my mind around how they could write these "epic" moments.  If Laurel would talk to Felicity about how she felt when Tommy died, as opposed to how she felt when Oliver 'died' on the Queen's Gambit, it might be okay but I can't see how Laurel would know about Oliver's feelings for Felicity, much less accept that another woman had replaced her as the woman Oliver loves.

 

The only huge NO for me in regards to the Diggle/Laurel scene is Diggle grieving with Laurel. If Laurel grieves with Diggle its one thing, because who else is there but Team Arrow? But I can't take Diggle breaking down with Laurel. Its a massive WTF. But since Laurel isn't the grieving type, I'm leaning towards the conversation being about Sara/Andy and being consumed with revenge. Addressing her reckless behavior would also be needed. Diggle is the sage of the show, so to me thats the scene that would make sense.

 

But if Diggle talked to her about her reckless behavior, how do they get from there to Laurel, virtually unskilled, going out in the field to fight criminals along with Team Arrow?  Diggle's going to say "Laurel, you're being too reckless because you don't know how to fight yet" and "Oliver didn't want you in danger", and Laurel's going to go right back out there to fight.  

[apinknightmare]

But if Diggle talked to her about her reckless behavior, how do they get from there to Laurel, virtually unskilled, going out in the field to fight criminals along with Team Arrow?  Diggle's going to say "Laurel, you're being too reckless because you don't know how to fight yet" and "Oliver didn't want you in danger", and Laurel's going to go right back out there to fight.

That'd be pretty in character to me. When has she ever considered someone else's opinion of what she's doing? Why start now?

[Chaser]

They have established two constant characteristics with Laurel: 1) She's angry and 2) She doesn't listen.

 

Diggle may serve her some Truth Tea but she may knock it off the table. Realizing that she is doing this with or without anyones approval or support, may cause Diggle to say 'Fine but you're going to get killed (or get someone else killed) so work with us.'

[statsgirl]

And then, in spite of his better judgement, Diggle is going to let her play with Team Arrow because that way at least he'd be able to watch out for her and keep her from getting hurt or killed?  I can't wait.

 

or what 10Eleven12 just said.

 

We know there are better ways to write Laurel.  Why aren't they doing it?

[calliope1975]

Laurel and Felicity. I want no advice giving, no bonding over grief, no pretending Laurel understands what Felicity is going thru (like I said before, vastly different experiences and we haven't seen any personal interaction to suggest Laurel knows about Oliver/Felicity). At this point a 'big' moment between them would just be an acknowledgement that Felicity is more then a personal computer. An actual HELLO between the two would be huge.

 

I really can't understand why we haven't had a conversation between Laurel and Diggle/Felicity. Seriously, 9 episodes in and nothing.

 

Other than having lost Oliver once before, I don't see any special grieving advice Laurel could give Diggle or Felicity. Both of them have lost loved ones - some violently - yet found a way to cope. Frankly, maybe they shouldn't tell Laurel about Oliver and keep it a secret since it might upset her or cause her to have a medical condition. (That was bitchy.) 

 

But really, there's no build up to these "epic" comforting TA + Laurel scenes. As others have said, there's no relationship there. Diggle had more of a relationship during his 1 minute scene with Thea last season than he has with Laurel. 

[wonderwall]

First of all, I have to hand it to MG for putting Laurel in that tweet :p It takes moxie. I mean, how else is he supposed to bring her up when almost no one else asks about her or is interested in her arc enough to make a query? Poor guys is just doing his job :p Whether he's doing it well is up for debate. 

 

As for the 'epic' scene with Diggle, I tend to take anything MG says with a grain of salt. His 9, wasn't a 9. His 'Laurel has the sweetest scene with Oliver' wasn't sweet at all, his 'epics' just aren't epic. Unfortunately now, I have trouble believing in the hype when it comes from MG or even SA (considering he thinks almost every episode is the greatest they've done when this season has been anything but great). 

 

I hope that scene with Laurel is Diggle finally opening up about his brother and him putting Laurel in her place about how she's been acting about Sara's death. I want him to give Laurel some perspective and I want that moment to give Laurel depth because she's been a pretty flat and reactive character. Although, I doubt it will do any of this. 

 

While I don't mind that Laurel is finally having some interaction with the core of the show (it's about damn time) I didn't like how MG sort of brushed the Diggle/Felicity moments aside because that just leads me to believe that they aren't significant enough, which I expected them to be. They just lost their partner, one Diggle would die for, one Felicity was in love with... You're telling me that their moments won't be as significant as Diggle's moments with Laurel or Felicity's moments with Laurel? That's just total bs to me tbqh and reeks of desperation in terms of propping up Laurel. I, however, will not complain until I see the final product. I hope my worse fears about the show don't get realized, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. 

 

I hope Laurel's interaction with Digg/Felicity does her character good. Honestly, I'm tired of seeing the writers fail with regards to Laurel. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

They started filming episode 15, Nanda Parbat, today (although Guggenheim tweeted that they were filming 16, but he had a picture of the cover from 315, but whatever).  I didn't follow spoilers last year, so does anyone know if we will keep getting episode descriptions for episodes beyond # 10 before Arrow returns on January 21st?  I'm eager to know if anything interesting is happening anytime soon.

Edited January 6, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[Velocity23]

I am not at all excited for 3x14 & 3x15 since i suspect they will be Felicity and also Diggle light.

[Morrigan2575]

They started filming episode 15, Nanda Parbat, today (although Guggenheim tweeted that they were filming 16, but he had a picture of the cover from 315, but whatever).  I didn't follow spoilers last year, so does anyone know if we will keep getting episode descriptions for episodes beyond # 10 before Arrow returns on January 21st?  I'm eager to know if anything interesting is happening anytime soon.

Episode Descriptions are released by the network 3 weeks before the episode airs, it doesn't stop and technically they're not spoilers they're part of the Network PR machine.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Good, we'll get episode # 11 description this week, then.  I'm curious to see if that's going to be really Laurel-heavy because for some reason (don't remember why) there was speculation that it would be. 

Edited January 6, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[Chaser]

Wonderwall brought up my biggest issue with the spoiler. This is the third or forth time they have mentioned this 'emotional/epic' scene. But we are getting very little on anything else. How about teasing Thea? or Malcom? I'm concerned that the only time we see Diggle emotional is with Laurel. If you don't want the audience to see Laurel as a Special Unicorn don't treat her like one.

[looptab]

 

While I don't mind that Laurel is finally having some interaction with the core of the show (it's about damn time) I didn't like how MG sort of brushed the Diggle/Felicity moments aside because that just leads me to believe that they aren't significant enough, which I expected them to be. They just lost their partner, one Diggle would die for, one Felicity was in love with... You're telling me that their moments won't be as significant as Diggle's moments with Laurel or Felicity's moments with Laurel? That's just total bs to me tbqh and reeks of desperation in terms of propping up Laurel. I, however, will not complain until I see the final product. I hope my worse fears about the show don't get realized, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. 

 

 

This was my knee-jerk reaction, too. But I'm still holding out hope that they're not hyping Diggle/Felicity because that's kind of a given (or at least should be, let's ignore this season first 9 episode where they had 2 exchanges at best), while Laurel needs all the help/propping she can get. I mean, after everyone and their mother has stated that Team Arrow is the core of the show and one of the major reason for its raise in quality, it would be beyond stupid not to exploit that connection and what a loss that significant would do to the remaining members. So let's hope for the best!

Edited January 6, 2015 by looptab

[TanyaKay]

Other than having lost Oliver once before, I don't see any special grieving advice Laurel could give Diggle or Felicity. Both of them have lost loved ones - some violently - yet found a way to cope. Frankly, maybe they shouldn't tell Laurel about Oliver and keep it a secret since it might upset her or cause her to have a medical condition. (That was bitchy.) 

 

But really, there's no build up to these "epic" comforting TA + Laurel scenes. As others have said, there's no relationship there. Diggle had more of a relationship during his 1 minute scene with Thea last season than he has with Laurel. 

 

Even losing Oliver was a vastly different experience for Laurel than it will be for Felicity.

Laurel lost Oliver to an accident and he cheated on her and ran away with her sister while he had that accident. Felicity's Oliver was a majestic, noble warrior - a hero - who went to fight to save his sister and innocent civilians of Starling City who were threatened by League. Laurel's Ollie lied to her before he left on Gambit, Felicity's Oliver told her the most intimate truth ... that he loves her before he left.

Even when they were together in the past, Ollie constantly cheated on Laurel with multiple girls. In the present day, even though he was not officially with Felicity, he cannot imagine being with anyone else but Felicity and lived like a monk.

 

There is absolutely no comparison.

 

I will only buy it if Laurel tries to empathize with her by opening up to Felicity about most recent loss, the death of her sister and how she is coming to terms with it and may be take her to a boxing class or something to let it out. That I can buy but no bonding over their shared experience of losing an object of affection.

[Genki]

Maybe Laurel will coach Felicity on how to keep Oliver's death a secret from Thea.

[foreverevolving]

Even losing Oliver was a vastly different experience for Laurel than it will be for Felicity.

Laurel lost Oliver to an accident and he cheated on her and ran away with her sister while he had that accident. Felicity's Oliver was a majestic, noble warrior - a hero - who went to fight to save his sister and innocent civilians of Starling City who were threatened by League. Laurel's Ollie lied to her before he left on Gambit, Felicity's Oliver told her the most intimate truth ... that he loves her before he left.

Even when they were together in the past, Ollie constantly cheated on Laurel with multiple girls. In the present day, even though he was not officially with Felicity, he cannot imagine being with anyone else but Felicity and lived like a monk.

 

There is absolutely no comparison.

 

I will only buy it if Laurel tries to empathize with her by opening up to Felicity about most recent loss, the death of her sister and how she is coming to terms with it and may be take her to a boxing class or something to let it out. That I can buy but no bonding over their shared experience of losing an object of affection.

If anything the comparison, if it comes from Fakanary should be with Tommy. Since Tommy too died an heroic death.

[statsgirl]

I will only buy it if Laurel tries to empathize with her by opening up to Felicity about most recent loss, the death of her sister and how she is coming to terms with it and may be take her to a boxing class or something to let it out. That I can buy but no bonding over their shared experience of losing an object of affection.

Didn't Roy have Thea hit him to deal with... something, I forget what.  Hitting/boxing seems to be the EPs go to way to deal with loss and anger.

 

I saw this on imdb.    It feels like a fake to me so I didn't want to put it in the spoiler thread but I just thought I'd put it out here.

 

Nanda Parbat:  After being raised by the Lazarus Pit, Oliver must escape Nands Parbat with help from an unlikely source. Laurel and the rest of Team Arrow receive shocking news about Ray Palmer and his true intentions with the A.T.O.M. Suit.

[apinknightmare]

Didn't Roy have Thea hit him to deal with... something, I forget what.  Hitting/boxing seems to be the EPs go to way to deal with loss and anger.

 

I saw this on imdb.    It feels like a fake to me so I didn't want to put it in the spoiler thread but I just thought I'd put it out here.

 

He had her hit him to deal with her anger at Moira over the Undertaking, IIRC.

 

And yeah, I think that's a fake, only because SA was in his Arrow suit while filming 3x14, so it seems like he's already back in town (and that's not counting him being in the suit with Roy for 3x13, but there's still speculation that could be some kind of hallucination, so IDK). And I would certainly hope that we're not at the point where were referring to Laurel and THE REST OF TEAM ARROW at ep 15, because...no, haha.

[Danny Franks]

He had her hit him to deal with her anger at Moira over the Undertaking, IIRC.

 

And yeah, I think that's a fake, only because SA was in his Arrow suit while filming 3x14, so it seems like he's already back in town (and that's not counting him being in the suit with Roy for 3x13, but there's still speculation that could be some kind of hallucination, so IDK). And I would certainly hope that we're not at the point where were referring to Laurel and THE REST OF TEAM ARROW at ep 15, because...no, haha.

 

Could be that he just reappears with no explanation, and then the flashbacks in subsequent episodes explain it. That would actually be an interesting narrative choice. But no, I agree that's probably fake, because it implies villainy from 50 Shades, and I really don't think that's what these writers intend.