Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Princess Vanellope]

I think it depends on whether or not they plan on killing Quentin. I can see them waiting until 320 and he has a heart attack and dies. The earlier they tell him the better his chances of surviving imo.

[TanyaKay]

I would really like someone totally not related to Laurel - like Sin or Roy - to spill the beans about Sara's death to Quentin and when he would be in shock, they should go ... oh didn't Laurel tell you? She was there at the burial?

[ban1o]

I would really like someone totally not related to Laurel - like Sin or Roy - to spill the beans about Sara's death to Quentin and when he would be in shock, they should go ... oh didn't Laurel tell you? She was there at the burial?

Wait does Team Arrow know Laurel hasn't told Quentin? I know Nyssa does but I forget get if Oliver and co do?

Edited January 2, 2015 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

Wait does Team Arrow know Laurel hasn't told Quentin? I know Nyssa does but I forget get if Oliver and co do?

I'm pretty sure Oliver knows, and whatever Oliver knows I'm sure he's told Team Arrow at some point. But I do know that Sin doesn't know about Sara's death, and when she finds out, I'm sure she won't know that Quentin doesn't know. That sentence seemed confusing. So she may be the one to spill the beans. 

[Princess Vanellope]

Oliver knew, at least according to SA. And I'm willing to bet that he told the rest of Team Arrow as much.

[ban1o]

I'm pretty sure Oliver knows, and whatever Oliver knows I'm sure he's told Team Arrow at some point. But I do know that Sin doesn't know about Sara's death, and when she finds out, I'm sure she won't know that Quentin doesn't know. That sentence seemed confusing. So she may be the one to spill the beans. 

 

If the writers were smart about Laurel's character they would have laurel finally smarten up and be the one to tell Quentin though and write it in a way that Laurel wasn't telling Quentin because she didn't want to fully accept that Sara was gone and if she told Quentin it would make it more real and she was using his health has an excuse. I think that would make sense. But the writers aren't smart about Laurel's character so who knows.

[wonderwall]

If the writers were smart about Laurel's character they would have laurel finally smarten up and be the one to tell Quentin though and write it in a way that Laurel wasn't telling Quentin because she didn't want to fully accept that Sara was gone and if she told Quentin it would make it more real and she was using his health has an excuse. I think that would make sense. But the writers aren't smart about Laurel's character so who knows.

I thought we established that when it comes to Laurel, the writers are anything but smart :p My first wish is for laurel not to dress up like Sara to fool Quentin. That's the first hurdle the writers have to jump. because imo if she does do that, I will probably write her off for the rest of the show. lol It sounds dramatic, but it's just so tactless and ridiculous. 

 

I too hope that Laurel's the one who tells Quentin. But if something happens to him or he dies i'm gonna blame Laurel because she's piling on the grief Quentin will go through. Ugh this is painful. 

[ban1o]

 My first wish is for laurel not to dress up like Sara to fool Quentin.. 

Definitely. That would be really lame if she does and prove the writers just don't care about her character. I have a funny feeling that the reason for dressing up won't be to trick Quentin but when a blonde girl in leather is spotted in Starling City and people say that the Canary is back,  hthink it's Sara and Laurel won't do anything to correct that assumption.

 

But really if Sara was back in town and didn't even visit him that would be suspicious to Quentin so maybe that would force Laurel to tell him, which would support what apinknightmare stated about Suzanne Gomez's tweets and an emotion moment between Quentin and Laurel in episode 11 or 12.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

Definitely. That would be really lame if she does and prove the writers just don't care about her charactwr. I have a funny feeling that the reason for dressing up won't be to trick Quentin but when a blonde girl in leather is spotted in Starling City and people say that the Canary is back.  He'll think it's Sara and Laurel won't do anything to correct that assumption.

 

But really if Sara was back in town and didn't even visit him that would be suspicious so maybe that would force laurel to tell him.

 

Quentin isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, which makes me question him as a detective :p The scenario you painted though doesn't make the situation any better though. While she wouldn't exactly be doing it for the sole purpose of fooling Quentin, it'll end up fooling him nonetheless? A lie of omission is just as bad as a flat out lie. And Laurel's just lying her ass off which is stupid because her excuse isn't a good one at all considering Quentin faces tough and stressful situations 24/7 because of his job. It just makes me iffy about Laurel becoming BC. IDK it's just that Laurel's not emotionally and mentally strong enough to handle something like vigilantism and her not telling Quentin is sort of proof of that. 

 

I hope the writers spend the next few episodes focusing on her building up her mental and emotional strength than physical because I feel like that's so important and they've never really done that for Laurel because I feel like she's a really flat character. 

[ban1o]

Quentin isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, which makes me question him as a detective :p The scenario you painted though doesn't make the situation any better though. While she wouldn't exactly be doing it for the sole purpose of fooling Quentin, it'll end up fooling him nonetheless? A lie of omission is just as bad as a flat out lie. And Laurel's just lying her ass off which is stupid because her excuse isn't a good one at all considering Quentin faces tough and stressful situations 24/7 because of his job. It just makes me iffy about Laurel becoming BC. IDK it's just that Laurel's not emotionally and mentally strong enough to handle something like vigilantism and her not telling Quentin is sort of proof of that. 

 

I hope the writers spend the next few episodes focusing on her building up her mental and emotional strength than physical because I feel like that's so important and they've never really done that for Laurel because I feel like she's a really flat character. 

Oh I definitely agree it won't be better if she lied by omission. I didn't mean to give off that impression. That would almost as bad as dressing up for the purpose of tricking Quentin It was just what I thought might happen.

 

And yeah Quentin isn't the sharpest detective around lol.

 

yeah I think that the "Canary trilogy" they should focus on building her up mentally, especially since they said they will find other ways besides her being strong physically. What that means I don't know, but I  don't think we've seen the mental development and the motivation yet for her to be a "good" and "worthy" vigilante.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

yeah I think that the "Canary trilogy" they should focus on building her up mentally, especially since they said they will find other ways besides her being strong physically. What that means I don't know, but I  don't think we've seen the mental development and the motivation yet for her to be a "good" and "worthy" vigilante.

For sure! I'm actually afraid that they're going to just focus on Laurel going out and getting her butt kicked and failing at being a vigilante without us seeing the emotional repercussions. I also agree that we haven't seen her motivations to be a vigilante. We've seen her motivation for finding Sara's killer and making them pay, but not a vigilante. I don't even think 'honoring Sara's memory' is a good enough motivation because Sara wouldn't have wanted Laurel to go through that. 

 

I just don't trust the writers because packing all of that development is way too much for 3 episodes considering she's not going to be the main focus of them. But I'm pretty sure they're going to pack it all in there because that's what Arrow is all about, fast tracking every single plot point. i guess that just irks me because Oliver's been developing for 3 seasons and he's still growing. 

[Belinea]

I have a question... (not related to LL) I have been reading some speculations and the people writing them said that SA/MG (one or the other or apparently both) said that Oliver would come back different and more like S1 Oliver. The quote is apparently 'more apathetic, like season one Arrow”. They talked about it like that has been confirmed. Maybe I just missed that but is that true? Because that would be so redundant. Of course dying should affect the guy but if they take all his character development away what was the point of seeing him struggle for 2 1/2 years? Why would they go back to S1 Oliver? I just don't understand how the show would benefit from having that person back. He would have to start all over again and I don't know if viewers should have to watch the same storyline over and over again. 

 

 

And regarding the issue of Quentin not knowing...I was wondering why Dinah, the mother of his child, doesn't want to tell him either. Is he really going to drop that any second? He has a very stressful job and still manages to do that. I don't get the whole storyline. Maybe they are using it so that Quentin has a reason to not want to be on Laurel's side for a while. Up until she saves some helpless kittens and then he comes around and considers her a true hero.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Belinea

[DrSpaceman10]

As far as I know, that's pure speculation. There have been very few spoilers released about these upcoming episodes...

[apinknightmare]

And regarding the issue of Quentin not knowing...I was wondering why Dinah, the mother of his child, doesn't want to tell him either. Is he really going to drop that any second? He has a very stressful job and still manages to do that. I don't get the whole storyline. 

 

Yeah, I don't get this part either. So, Laurel doesn't want to tell Quentin because she's worried about his heart, but she has no issues with suiting up to fight crime (assuming that's what she does as BC, which...why wouldn't it be), even though he has already vehemently asked her NOT to do that because her first go resulted in her being hospitalized. So, she thinks telling him Sara's dead will kill him, but her going out and risking her life is a-okay? Her whole BC storyline is so stupid, and it really didn't have to be. 

[ban1o]

Yeah, I don't get this part either. So, Laurel doesn't want to tell Quentin because she's worried about his heart, but she has no issues with suiting up to fight crime (assuming that's what she does as BC, which...why wouldn't it be), even though he has already vehemently asked her NOT to do that because her first go resulted in her being hospitalized. So, she thinks telling him Sara's dead will kill him, but her going out and risking her life is a-okay? Her whole BC storyline is so stupid, and it really didn't have to be. 

The whole don't tell Quentin stryline was just so dumb. I really think the writers just don't know what to do. If they were so adamant on her becoming BC. They should have spent this season with her mourning Sara, showed her training with Ted over the time and built her relationships with Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Roy and Thea. and then maybe towards the end of season become BC and come up with a good motivation to do so. Instead they've focused on the "don't tell my father" plot.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ban1o

[Chiny11]

Hi,

So in this clip it is mentioned (by Andrew Kreisberg) that Episode 10, 11 and 12 is a trilogy. He mentioned the villan for this 3 parter but I couldn't hear clearly. Please could someone listen and see if they can get the name of the villan? Start from 1:19 mark. Thanks

Clip:The Flash vs Arrow fan screening Q&A 3/4:

[DrSpaceman10]

It's Brick, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_%28comics%29

Edited January 2, 2015 by drspaceman10

[calliope1975]

I have a question... (not related to LL) I have been reading some speculations and the people writing them said that SA/MG (one or the other or apparently both) said that Oliver would come back different and more like S1 Oliver. The quote is apparently 'more apathetic, like season one Arrow”. They talked about it like that has been confirmed. Maybe I just missed that but is that true? Because that would be so redundant.

 

I really hope not. If he does come back closed off and S1 then it had better be wrapped up in 1 episode. I don't have any desire to watch a retread of that Oliver. I would rather he come back focused on what he wants out of life, personally, professionally, and crime fighter-y and the rest of the season is him going after that.

[TanyaKay]

I really hope not. If he does come back closed off and S1 then it had better be wrapped up in 1 episode. I don't have any desire to watch a retread of that Oliver. I would rather he come back focused on what he wants out of life, personally, professionally, and crime fighter-y and the rest of the season is him going after that.

 

So true.

I mean what is the point of two plus years of character growth if you are taking us back to the start? 

Plus I really like season 3 Oliver (barring his denial to have a relationship with Felicity, he has been so so good) so I want him to continue with that and get even better.

[Chiny11]

It's Brick, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_%28comics%29

Thank you.

[pootlus]

Apart from losing Paul Blackthorne, who's amazing and needs to be on my TV more often, killing Quentin (especially in the "dies from shock at the Sara news" way) would be incredibly cliche given the amount of anvils they've been dropping on the subject.  Not that I need any convincing but it would make me think the writers are just hacks.

 

It also paints Laurel in an awful light - not that she needs much help in this department - since she's had multiple opportunities to come clean, some of which (as others have pointed out) were when she and her father were actually standing in a hospital.

 

If they do go this route I really hope that Dinah also dies of shock and then Alex Kingston and Paul Blackthorne can get some kick-ass show together where they can speak in their normal accents, fight crime and have sexytimes.

[foreverevolving]

If the writers were smart about Laurel's character they would have laurel finally smarten up and be the one to tell Quentin though and write it in a way that Laurel wasn't telling Quentin because she didn't want to fully accept that Sara was gone and if she told Quentin it would make it more real and she was using his health has an excuse. I think that would make sense. But the writers aren't smart about Laurel's character so who knows.

What they could have done.. Is to do what you wrote, but also insert in scenes of bucklenary seeing and hearing Sara's ghost urging her not to tell dad 'cause it will kill him' and 'you are the only one who can find and push the person who killed me' type of thing. And than twist it into her wanting to stay on as a vigilante.

I don't know I'm grasping at straws here, it's the only thing that makes sense now.

[statsgirl]

If the writers were smart about Laurel's character they would have laurel finally smarten up and be the one to tell Quentin though and write it in a way that Laurel wasn't telling Quentin because she didn't want to fully accept that Sara was gone and if she told Quentin it would make it more real and she was using his health has an excuse.

This is something that Quentin could identify with, because he's already said that he doesn't want to know who the Arrow is (even though he probably does).  Knowing for certain makes it real, and he'd understand why Laurel didn't want to tell him because she was hoping it wasnt' true.  That's a better solution than Laurel not telling and Quentin forgiving her all because she's the only one he has left in his life.  (He really need Donna Smoak to come by again.)

 

But the real problem I see is that there is still no reason for Laurel to suddenly acquire a black leather suit and put on Sara's wig and mask.  Sure Dinah told her to make the killer pay, but she can do that better as a lawyer than wearing a Hallowe'en costume.  (I love Quentin for that line.)  She'd have to be delusional to think that she's a good enough fighter now to help out with Oliver gone, and it's hard to think that the bad guys of Starling City knew the Canary well enough to be afraid of a woman with blonde hair in black leather.

 

If they do go this route I really hope that Dinah also dies of shock and then Alex Kingston and Paul Blackthorne can get some kick-ass show together where they can speak in their normal accents, fight crime and have sexytimes.

Something along the lines of Harry Dresden works with River Song..... or like Castle and Bones. There must be a market for that kind of show by now.

 

I have a question... (not related to LL) I have been reading some speculations and the people writing them said that SA/MG (one or the other or apparently both) said that Oliver would come back different and more like S1 Oliver. The quote is apparently 'more apathetic, like season one Arrow”. They talked about it like that has been confirmed. Maybe I just missed that but is that true? Because that would be so redundant. Of course dying should affect the guy but if they take all his character development away what was the point of seeing him struggle for 2 1/2 years? Why would they go back to S1 Oliver? I just don't understand how the show would benefit from having that person back. He would have to start all over again and I don't know if viewers should have to watch the same storyline over and over again.

If they do it properly, I can see how it might work.  There's no greater trauma than being killed, and there should be some consequences.  It's also a better way to stall Olicity than Felicity suddenly dating Ray.

 

But I have no interest in seeing season 1 Oliver again and it actually doesn't make sense in terms of their parallels of Flashback Oliver getting more inhuman as Present Day Oliver regains his humanity.  So I'm okay if they do it, but wrap it up before the push for May sweeps.

Edited January 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

This is something that Quentin could identify with, because he's already said that he doesn't want to know who the Arrow is (even though he probably does).  Knowing for certain makes it real, and he'd understand why Laurel didn't want to tell him because she was hoping it wasnt' true.  That's a better solution than Laurel not telling and Quentin forgiving her all because she's the only one he has left in his life.  (He really need Donna Smoak to come by again.)

 

But the real problem I see is that there is still no reason for Laurel to suddenly acquire a black leather suit and put on Sara's wig and mask.  Sure Dinah told her to make the killer pay, but she can do that better as a lawyer than wearing a Hallowe'en costume.  (I love Quentin for that line.)

Something along the lines of Harry Dresden works with River Song..... or like Castle and Bones. There must be a market for that kind of show by now.

 

If they do it properly, I can see how it might work.  There's no greater trauma than being killed, and there should be some consequences.  It's also a better way to stall Olicity than Felicity suddenly dating Ray.

 

But I have no interest in seeing season 1 Oliver again and it actually doesn't make sense in terms of their parallels of Flashback Oliver getting more inhuman as Present Day Oliver regains his humanity.  So I'm okay if they do it, but wrap it up before the push for May sweeps.

 

I think the reason Quentin really doesn't want to know for sure is so he has plausible deniability. He called off the task force, but he could still be considered an accessory to vigilantism if he *knew* and didn't turn Oliver in. 

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Oliver revert back to his S1-ish self as long as it's only for one episode as an after-effect from the Pit or however he comes back. But you're right, it wouldn't make sense at all with the flashbacks.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Huh! I've seen that speculation about Oliver returning changed but I've never seen anything from Stephen or Marc even hinting he'll regress to Season 1 Oliver. I mean, I expect Oliver to come back changed because a close brush with death (or actual death) would do that to anybody. Unless they mean he comes back a bit shaken, skittish, which is what happened after he was defeated by Malcom in the first season. He kind of lost his mojo back then. I'd love to see him re-evaluate his life, for him to realize, as Felicity said in the first ep, that "life is precious" and that he should want more from life than vigilantism. Because that answers the identity question raised this season. He can spend the rest of the season trying to find a proper balance.

Edited January 3, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[wonderwall]

I honestly don't think he'll come back changed in the sense that he'll regress back to a killer or someone with no humanity, no, I think he'll change for the better, change into a man who's willing to fight for a life as well as fight for his city. I think that almost dying will make him realize how stupid he is for trying to be the 'unfeeling' Arrow, for trying to shut down his emotions. I think (at least i hope) we find Oliver fighting for himself and his humanity because this simply doesn't take a few episodes to do. 

[Genki]

If Oliver comes back as S1, I would expect the "Your the first person I could see as a person" to come into play from the 3.01 date. Also I wouldn't want the silliness to extend much beyond 1-2 episodes, it's already dragging down the season as is. Maybe the regression to S1 Oliver is so that they can do some Oliver LI stuff that they had to scrap with Lauriver, it does seem that the EPS cling to ideas very strongly sometimes.

 

I think I would prefer if Oliver came back as someone willing to fight for Oliver Queen like @wonderwall said.

[dtissagirl]

If Oliver comes back emotionless robot arms S1 Oliver, I'm just gonna assume Malcolm is mind-controlling him to "Buffy vs. Dracula" butt-monkey levels.

[Guest]

I have a question... (not related to LL) I have been reading some speculations and the people writing them said that SA/MG (one or the other or apparently both) said that Oliver would come back different and more like S1 Oliver. The quote is apparently 'more apathetic, like season one Arrow”. They talked about it like that has been confirmed. Maybe I just missed that but is that true? Because that would be so redundant. Of course dying should affect the guy but if they take all his character development away what was the point of seeing him struggle for 2 1/2 years? Why would they go back to S1 Oliver? I just don't understand how the show would benefit from having that person back. He would have to start all over again and I don't know if viewers should have to watch the same storyline over and over again. 

 

 

I've seen this speculation a couple of times, most recently on a post on tumblr in the Olicity tag. I haven't seen any evidence of that - no screenshot of MG or any of the EP's saying as much so it could be pure speculation. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. I expect Oliver dying and the experience of that to affect him. He can't come back from the dead and pick up where he left off. But I would hate it if he completely reverted to S1 Oliver. I honestly didn't like him that much back then. It's only now that I'm rooting for his happiness 100%, even if he does stupid things sometimes.

 

And like you said, all of his character development and the progress he's made (even this season, however small it has been) would be for nothing. I'd rather he had his challenges and difficulties in light of his 'death' but faced them with a renewed sense of purpose, rather than just go back to the man who pushed everyone away. Sadly I can see them doing this though. 

Edited January 3, 2015 by Guest

[statsgirl]

If Oliver comes back emotionless robot arms S1 Oliver, I'm just gonna assume Malcolm is mind-controlling him to "Buffy vs. Dracula" butt-monkey levels.

Hey, it worked with Thea.  Season 3, the Malcolm Merlyn Mind-control volumes.  (Man, I really miss Moira, by the end she really had Malcolm's number.  "You told me [about Ra's al Ghul] when you mentioned Nanda Parbat.")

 

I think the reason Quentin really doesn't want to know for sure is so he has plausible deniability. He called off the task force, but he could still be considered an accessory to vigilantism if he *knew* and didn't turn Oliver in. 

That could be part of it but I also think that it's true what he told Laurel, that he doesn't want to know who the Arrow is because then he couldn't ask him to do the things he needs to do to  protect the city (e.g. when he told him to get back to killing when Laurel was kidnapped by Slade). The cost of doing right has been an on-going theme in the show.

 

I think Quentin dealt with Sara being the Canary partly because he had already lost her to death and partly because she was doing her thing out of town so he didn't have to know the specifics.  But Laurel is going to be in town, right in front of the eyes of the police department, and it will be interesting to see how he deals with that. At least I hope it will be and Quentin doesn't just say "Cool.  Stay safe."

[tv echo]

I have a question... (not related to LL) I have been reading some speculations and the people writing them said that SA/MG (one or the other or apparently both) said that Oliver would come back different and more like S1 Oliver. The quote is apparently 'more apathetic, like season one Arrow”. They talked about it like that has been confirmed. Maybe I just missed that but is that true? Because that would be so redundant. Of course dying should affect the guy but if they take all his character development away what was the point of seeing him struggle for 2 1/2 years? Why would they go back to S1 Oliver? I just don't understand how the show would benefit from having that person back. He would have to start all over again and I don't know if viewers should have to watch the same storyline over and over again. 

If Oliver comes back as S1, I would expect the "Your the first person I could see as a person" to come into play from the 3.01 date. Also I wouldn't want the silliness to extend much beyond 1-2 episodes, it's already dragging down the season as is. Maybe the regression to S1 Oliver is so that they can do some Oliver LI stuff that they had to scrap with Lauriver, it does seem that the EPS cling to ideas very strongly sometimes.

If these specs are true, then the most pessimistic view would be that the EPs are trying to retcon the entire series to get back to their original vision of Oliver and Laurel as the two superheroes in love, while Diggle and Felicity are relegated to supporting characters.  Season 1 Oliver still had feelings for Laurel but they were repressed because he was suffering from PTSD, so this time it'll be Laurel who brings back his humanity while fighting alongside him, and it'll be like Sara as the BC never existed and Tommy as Laurel's boyfriend never happened.  As I said... pessimistic.

 

Regarding the "Canaries" episode, maybe when Count Vertigo returns this time, he brings a new and different drug.  Instead of making you hallucinate your worst fears, it gives you delusions of being better and more invincible than you actually are.

 

Incidentally, I think there's a difference between Oliver becoming a vigilante and Laurel becoming a vigilante with regard to Quentin.  Oliver originally became a vigilante to kill people on his father's list - clearly illegal and conscienceless.  He didn't care about Quentin or the police or arguably the city.  Quentin eventually accepted the Arrow's help when the Arrow developed a conscience (thanks to Felicity and Diggle), tried to avoid killing people, and showed a real concern about saving the city.  Even if Quentin had not accepted the Arrow's help, Oliver would've kept doing what he felt he had to do.  He has no close relationship with Quentin.  However, Laurel is his daughter - which is why I said that her going vigilante without at least first talking to or trying to work with Quentin, her police captain father, (as well as her DA boss) in her capacity as an ADA, showed some disrespect - both to him and to her job.

Edited January 3, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

I don't watch this show anymore but from what I've been hearing. Are the EP's even interested in Oliver's journey anymore? It seems like everything is all about Laurel becoming BC, Ray becoming Atom and Roy being Arsenal. Oliver is being pushed of a cliff (like Sara being thrown in a dumpster) so they can play with their new toys. They they are regressing Oliver back to his season 1 self so he hasn't learned much and they can tell the exact same story again without having to think to hard on it. It seems like they just don't care about Oliver too much anymore. They got their show because of him but now they can have the super heroes they really want to play with. 

[apinknightmare]

If these specs are true, then the most pessimistic view would be that the EPs are trying to retcon the entire series to get back to their original vision of Oliver and Laurel as the two superheroes in love, while Diggle and Felicity are relegated to supporting characters. Season 1 Oliver still had feelings for Laurel but they were repressed because he was suffering from PTSD, so this time it'll be Laurel who brings back his humanity while fighting alongside him, and it'll be like Sara as the BC never existed and Tommy as Laurel's boyfriend never happened. As I said... pessimistic.

Yeah, that is pessimistic. I think if they're retconning anything, it's O/L as love interests. They've tied Felicity to Oliver's humanity - Oliver's said that outright. No way is Laurel taking that spot.

[Danny Franks]

I don't watch this show anymore but from what I've been hearing. Are the EP's even interested in Oliver's journey anymore? It seems like everything is all about Laurel becoming BC, Ray becoming Atom and Roy being Arsenal. Oliver is being pushed of a cliff (like Sara being thrown in a dumpster) so they can play with their new toys. They they are regressing Oliver back to his season 1 self so he hasn't learned much and they can tell the exact same story again without having to think to hard on it. It seems like they just don't care about Oliver too much anymore. They got their show because of him but now they can have the super heroes they really want to play with. 

 

That's what it sounds like to me too. But really, I think there were plenty of signs last year that these writers were prone to getting distracted by new toys, and ignoring the fundamentals that made the show a success in the first place. I liked Sara, but there's no denying that they spent too much time on her and too little time on Team Arrow, for a stretch of season 2 (seems even worse now, because we know that Sara was never even meant to be permanent anyway). They forgot about Blood and Isabel when they decided to throw Slade in as the big bad, and they certainly forgot about Merlyn.

 

So in season 3, they get the chance to put Roy in a costume, they finally get the chance to force Laurel into one. They get the clearance to use the Atom and Ra's. Is it any surprise if they've forgotten that the show is supposed to be about Oliver Queen? They obviously wanted to make a Batman show, but weren't allowed so just settled with stealing from Batman's character and storylines, and now they're being given the chance to make some sort of low rent JLA. It seems inevitable that they'd go for that.

 

Resetting Oliver to S1 'Hood' mode would probably help them, because they could get the other characters to work together and forge bonds in spite of Oliver being an isolated douche. Doesn't that sound like fun? Oh... it doesn't? Too bad.

[quarks]

It seems like everything is all about Laurel becoming BC, Ray becoming Atom and Roy being Arsenal. Oliver is being pushed of a cliff (like Sara being thrown in a dumpster) so they can play with their new toys.

 

 

I have to disagree with this.  The first nine episodes of this season were almost entirely about Oliver and his journey.  Even Felicity's romance with Ray focused on how much this hurt Oliver.  Thea killing Sara turned out to be less about Thea, and even Sara, and more about how this would lead to Oliver's death.  Even with a larger role in three episodes, and without counting Oliver's screentime over on Flash, Laurel has had less than 1/3 of Oliver's screentime, and much of it has been used to focus on Oliver's development. In "Guilty," for instance, the characters she was associated with turned out to be in the episode to teach Oliver important things about Roy and not abandoning your proteges.  (A lesson Oliver forgot three episodes later, but let's move on.)  Ray's journey has been slightly more independent, but so far, the show has spent all of four minutes this season showing him turning into the Atom, and I'm including the salmon ladder moment on this one. 

 

Oliver being in a reduced role for two, maybe three episodes after the actor has admitted to having actual health problems and needing IVs thanks to a heavy work schedule does not necessarily suggest that the show is going to stop focusing on Oliver; it more likely means that the show wants to avoid a lawsuit.  It's also, as Danny Franks just noted, not really anything new - last season had episodes focusing on Sara, Deathstroke and Moira. But that didn't mean that the show entirely forgot Oliver Queen.

Edited January 3, 2015 by quarks

[statsgirl]

That's what it sounds like to me too. But really, I think there were plenty of signs last year that these writers were prone to getting distracted by new toys, and ignoring the fundamentals that made the show a success in the first place. I liked Sara, but there's no denying that they spent too much time on her and too little time on Team Arrow, for a stretch of season 2 (seems even worse now, because we know that Sara was never even meant to be permanent anyway). They forgot about Blood and Isabel when they decided to throw Slade in as the big bad

I agree they have a real problem with their shiney new toys, especially the ones who wear costumes, and it often messes up their storytelling, and then they pull it together for the finale arc. I'm hoping that's what happening here and once Laurel's and Ray's stuff is done, thanks to Oliver being busy offscreen,  they'll get back to the Team Arrow as they did last season.  "It's time [they] got back to that."

 

I think if they're retconning anything, it's O/L as love interests. They've tied Felicity to Oliver's humanity - Oliver's said that outright. No way is Laurel taking that spot.

I don't know about retconning Laurel as Oliver's love interest but certainly they've tied Felicity to Oliver's humanity, she's even the last person he thought of as he died. 

 

Besides, looking at the year end reviews on the Starling Times thread, it's clear that Felicity/EBR is the break-out character on the show and the one getting the most accolades other than Oliver/SA and Barry/GG.  While there are time I don't think too highly of the EPs intelligence, killing the golden goose in favor of the one who has already been shown not to lay eggs at all (except in the metaphoric sense), would be really stupid.

[Danny Franks]

I don't know about retconning Laurel as Oliver's love interest but certainly they've tied Felicity to Oliver's humanity, she's even the last person he thought of as he died. 

 

Besides, looking at the year end reviews on the Starling Times thread, it's clear that Felicity/EBR is the break-out character on the show and the one getting the most accolades other than Oliver/SA and Barry/GG.  While there are time I don't think too highly of the EPs intelligence, killing the golden goose in favor of the one who has already been shown not to lay eggs at all (except in the metaphoric sense), would be really stupid.

 

One of the happy accidents for the show was that Felicity genuinely emerged as being tied to the show's humanity. She made it more interesting and more easy to relate to, by virtue of bringing a very different energy to the scenes she was in. And once those scenes became tied directly to Oliver's crusade, I think it really lifted the show to a level it hadn't reached before. I remember struggling through the first half of season 1, really not finding a whole lot that was encouraging me to stick with it. Oliver only really showed life in scenes with Thea, the love triangle was dull as hell, I didn't have much to interest me in seeing Oliver and Diggle sparring (though I understand a certain demographic enjoyed that, and still does). But when the spoilers came out about Felicity learning his secret in The Odyssey, suddenly there was something to look forward to.

 

By that stage, we'd seen often enough that Felicity brought a light and energy to all her scenes, and that she did so with Oliver as well. He did smile more, and behave in a noticeably more 'normal' way in scenes with her, both before and after she learned his secret. So the promise of her being part of his team led me to believe that the show would focus more on those moments of lightness and fun. And it did. For a while. Unfortunately, as was predicted by so many of us, as soon as the writers started trying to write Olicity, they screwed it all up.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Genki]

I definitely think they are firmly establishing Felicity in the Love Interest role. I also think that they were very aware of limitations of Lauriver's anti-chemistry early on in Season 1 and therefore could maybe not use some of the LI story tropes that they usually would have in S1 (and perhaps some others in later seasons like "I've already lost you once can't loose you again").

 

By having this mini death arc they can reset and put Felicity in the story in ways they may have originally wanted for Laurel. If you note how many fanfics there are where  Felicity knew Oliver before the island, it shows that people sort of like this trope of established connection before "crucible" and this will give them that. Also it lessens the identity dichotomy for Oliver to be less about Ollie/Oliver (tied in with Laurel) and make it more about "Oliver Queen vs. The Arrow." So then you can have Oliver fighting for his humanity and tie Felicity in as his soulmate, who is fighting alongside with him. 

 

The 2 issues I see with this is Laurel Lance and Ray Palmer. With Laurel even making her B-Canary still leave her flailing around with nothing much to add to the plot. For me, I'm not concerned with her "hero's journey" and I don't want her included in the main plot. The best thing they can do for her story-wise and me viewer-wise is to bring in Zombie Tommy. I know others may not agree, but tying her firmly to an identity crisis for a not-quite-right resurrected Tommy will give her a purpose and maybe even some conflict regarding Malcolm Merlyn. Zombie Tommy can bring a whole lot of disparate story-directions back in line. Thea and Laurel whole are always isolated can tie back into the main plot (Tommy and Oliver can fight for Thea's soul or Thea and Oliver can fight for Tommy's). There is still no reason for Malcolm to have killed Sara, but maybe they can make about freeing Tommy from the League or whatever. 

 

3.14 being called "The Return" has 2 possible options for me, Tommy Merlyn is alive or something with Oliver going back to the Island. 60th episode, spoil Colin Donnell back on set and a Tommy/Laurel flashback so can surprise with present day Zombie Tommy reveal in episode.

 

Even if my wild speculation happens it still leaves me confused about how they will tie Ray's plot, his plans don't tie in well with Felicity's grief and they will have to tread lightly because if they do make it "romantic" too soon and it will reflect negatively on Felicity. If we must have Ray and Atom stuff I would be more interested in seeing Ray interact with someone other than Felicity (but not Diggle, because Ray's salmon laddering has tipped his SWMing of Oliver int to the "too far" category for me, he can't have everything of Oliver's...except maybe Roy). Maybe it's my Olicity bias and BR's manic acting style that make me dislike Ray so much, but I want Felicity scenes with Diggle, Quentin, and I'm dying for Felicity/Thea interaction so having Ray suck up here screen time yet again, especially during the next few episodes will be annoying. Also Barry worked well because he wasn't just isolated to only interacting with Felicity.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Genki

[Chiny11]

I still cannot wrap my head around why they wanted the character of Ray Palmer/Atom. I hope going into season 3 they (TPTB) had a plan (story plan) for this character. Because from where I stand it doesn't look like they do have a plan (other than Olicity spoiler, which is not a concrete plan) . My humble opinion.

At least with Wildcat it seems they want to tie that character to LLance. I hope they stick to that and build on it.

Ray Palmer on the other hand seems like a pointless character thus far.

[TanyaKay]

I still cannot wrap my head around why they wanted the character of Ray Palmer/Atom. I hope going into season 3 they (TPTB) had a plan (story plan) for this character. Because from where I stand it doesn't look like they do have a plan (other than Olicity spoiler, which is not a concrete plan) . My humble opinion.

At least with Wildcat it seems they want to tie that character to LLance. I hope they stick to that and build on it.

Ray Palmer on the other hand seems like a pointless character thus far.

 

Yeah me too, except for planting that kiss on Felicity exactly the moment Oliver decided to pay her a visit, he served no purpose to the main story. I am still wondering why he exists

[Password]

I'm sure Ray's part will come to fruition whilst Oliver is away. Right now they set up Raylicity, and the suit to be explored in 3B. I'm really surprised at how Felicity oriented he is. I thought the whole "rivalry" the EPs talked about would involve Oliver more, but I suppose it has in a round about way. SWMing Oliver in this most creepy way.

[wonderwall]

I wonder if Ray will be back in season 4? Surely I think he will if he doesn't get his own show or go to the Flash

[dcinmb]

If these specs are true, then the most pessimistic view would be that the EPs are trying to retcon the entire series to get back to their original vision of Oliver and Laurel as the two superheroes in love, while Diggle and Felicity are relegated to supporting characters.  Season 1 Oliver still had feelings for Laurel but they were repressed because he was suffering from PTSD, so this time it'll be Laurel who brings back his humanity while fighting alongside him, and it'll be like Sara as the BC never existed and Tommy as Laurel's boyfriend never happened.  As I said... pessimistic.

 

Thankfully, this is highly unlikely to happen. When asked about Laurel at one of last year's cons, SA replied, "That ship has sailed." And he also said that Oliver was "only going to have one woman in Season 3." Then again, in 2013, he said that Laurel was the love of Oliver's life.

Edited January 4, 2015 by dcinmb

[Menrva]

Forgive me if this idea has been brought up and discussed/dismissed before, but is it possible that Merlyn engineered Oliver's "death" so that Merlyn could then revive Oliver and brainwash him, as Merlyn did to Thea? Because I really cannot figure out what purpose Oliver's death really serves.

If it was to show how deadly Ra's is, well, we knew that already. Is it to sideline Oliver to shove Raylicity front and center? Then that's icky and paints neither Felicity or even Ray (who I feel very meh about. And those crazy eyes!) in a very good light.

For me it's obvious that they want to shove the Canary storyline into prominence, and Arsenal too, I guess. I don't mind Roy's journey so much, except that they've done a pretty poor job of clearly establishing why Roy merits a mask and costume. I really wouldn't have minded some scenes of Roy and Oliver bonding. The more human interaction Oliver participates in, the more humanity he will regain. And really make strides towards becoming Green Arrow. If Diggle is Oliver's big brother, then Roy is definitely Oliver's little brother. In my opinion. And I don't think I need to add anything about how I feel about Laurel.

Sorry - this was a bit more rambling than I'd intended.

[quarks]

Because I really cannot figure out what purpose Oliver's death really serves.

 

 

Presumably this will become more clear later, but I can see various purposes now:

 

1. Allowing the characters who didn't know Oliver pre-island (Felicity, Diggle, Roy) to fully realize what Oliver meant to them.  

 

2. To add yet another wedge between Oliver/Laurel as if any more were needed: not only did he protect Sara's actual killer, but he decided to go snow dueling instead of going after the actual orchestrator of the murder, Malcolm Merlyn. 

 

3. To shock the audience and let them think that absolutely no one is safe, keeping everyone in suspense.

 

4. To convince Oliver that really, living is better than being all cold and dead on a cliff.

 

5. To fulfill Oliver's "It's going to be me on that table" prophecy and get it out of the way.

 

6. As part of the hero's journey: the idea is that the hero has to pass through the absolute worst, up to and sometimes including death, before the end. (This happens in many mythological tales/fairy tales.)

 

7. As an additional allusion to the Odyssey, which seems to be a Thing on this show, mirroring Odysseus's visit with the shades of the dead.   

[Menrva]

quarks, thanks for taking the time to respond. Your points are all well put. I realize that my post was kind of dumb now.

 

No more posting for me early in the morning…

[quarks]

Heh. For me the problem isn't what time of the morning it is, but how much coffee I've had.   And your post wasn't dumb at all.

[tv echo]

quarks, thank you for your thoughtful post.  My initial impression had been that the EPs just needed Oliver/Arrow to disappear for a few episodes in order to spotlight and facilitate the emergence of Laurel as the Black Canary.  So your comments make me think that maybe the EPs are more complicated in their thought processes than I gave them credit for.

Edited January 4, 2015 by tv echo

[TyranAmiros]

While I cynically think that @tvecho is right (and also because Steven Amell wanted a bit of a lighter filming load for a couple weeks), I think there were some good narrative reasons for it--the theme of rebirth and transformation runs throughout the show, and the thesis that a physical or psychological trauma induces character development is one the show has played a lot with.  I think this is what they're going for by pairing it with the "Oliver learns to torture" flashback story--bookends of this stage of Oliver's life, where takes away others' right to accept responsibility for their own actions by putting all the blame on himself.  Thus by the end of the season, we'll see Oliver in a place where he's more cognizant of others and isn't going to fall on his sword at the drop of a pin--that he's not personally responsible for the whole world.  Also, by having others such as Diggle, Roy, and Thea step up, they have an opportunity to reclaim the agency Oliver has taken away from them.  At least, that's what it could be IMO.

 

Also, as a person who hasn't read the comics ever, I disagree some with @Menvra 's assumption we know how dangerous Ras al Ghoul is.  I had never heard the name before they mentioned it last season, and though he's certainly been hinted at being a badass, it was important for the show to demonstrate that. While Metahumans are one thing, Arrow had to prove that a normal human like Ras could take out Oliver that easily.

[manbearpig]

I agree that the show needs to show why Ra's is so dangerous, instead of just relying on the 'he was this way in the comic book and therefore he's like this on the show' type of storytelling, but I do think the show did a decent job of building up to him. If someone as batshit as Malcolm is taken back by Moira saying his name, then you know he's trouble. Although, Moira threatening Malcolm with Ra's al Ghul is a lot more effective than anything Ra's has done on the show far, IMO. Even kicking Oliver off that cliff.

 

I don't know. Anyone know when we can expect to see more footage or a trailer of 3x10? I haven't really been looking forward to the show returning and would like to be excited to watch again. I am looking forward to see what they're doing with Laurel though.

Edited January 4, 2015 by manbearpig