Spoiler Discussion Thread

[DrSpaceman10]

I think Brandon Routh's contract is for at least 16 episodes. If TPTB like him, he might end up being in more episodes like what's happening with JR Ramirez.

[SleepDeprived]

I think it's speculation because they were promoting Ray as Felicity's new love interest like crazy over the summer and there's been so little indication of it as yet.

 

Were they? I'm not entirely certain (because the summer bliss of being excited about the show feels like it's been so long ago) but, IIRC, the way that they promoted Ray was that he was a potential love interest for Felicity, not that he will be an actual LI. He was touted as someone just like Oliver physically (though not a costumed vigilante yet) but smarter, more Felicity's caliber intellectually, and, possibly, more open/transparent than Oliver ever has been to Felicity. That they would be bantering and have a different fun chemistry compared to Oliver and Felicity. But there was always that qualifier of Ray being someone with "potential" than an actual LI.

 

So, maybe, Felicity does press the brakes after Ray kisses her in 3x07. And Ray accepts with the missive that should she ever change her mind or get over Oliver, he would be right there waiting for her. And Felicity and Ray remain friends/business partners with a, probably, growing potential for something more throughout Oliver's disappearance since I can see Ray being supportive throughout the months that Felicity might be worried over her friend going missing/leaving. Until Oliver comes back and decides to actually fight for Felicity. And then, we'll have Felicity actually having to make a choice between the red pill and the blue pill. Instead of defaulting for the blue pill because the red pill willingly (or not willingly if he's forced by the LOA) took himself out of the equation.

[statsgirl]

I think it was AK who talked about Felicity needing an actual alternative so that she could make a choice and Oliver wouldn't be the one she got by default.  If that's the case, they need to show more than they have shown so far, and possibly more than the 'business' date in the next episode.

 

It would make sense to have Oliver fighting for her in a real fight later in the season, but the way they burn through ideas on this show, it may be that it all gets settled in Draw Back Your Bow.

 

Every time Felicity wears a blue dress in a scene with Ray, like the blue dress he got her for 3x07, and I think about the red dress she wore in The Undertaking and in The Calm, I wonder if they really are doing the red pill/blue pill analogy on purpose,

[catrox14]

I think it's a stupid homage to superman with the blue and red.

[Password]

When it comes to Ray I've been saying since before the premiere and after it that we need to give him a chance...we are at episode 7 and we're STILL handing out chances. hmph.

I think this episode is definitely the make or break one because finally they're adding romance into the equation whereas up until now Ray has been a cool boss/friend that Felicity definitely needs. (You know because Diggle is tooooooooooo busy for her).

I've never really thought about the complication of Olicity if/when Oliver leaves. At that point I imagine cards will be laid on the table between the two idiots. If Felicity thinks Oliver is dead, she'd mourn hard core and a relationship between her and Ray would set my teeth on edge. If Oliver walks away (for whatever reason), perhaps once again choosing something else over Felicity I think she'd just be fed up again.

However if Oliver walks away because of some sort of sacrifice he makes for Starling or Thea, a relationship between Ray and Felicity would really annoy me, particularly if they decide AFTER Oliver is gone to persue one. That has emotional decision/taking advantage of situation written all over it.

I say this because of they way Ray has been written so far. If they didn't write him like this, I'd be far more hesitant to say he'd do this because he seems a genuinely nice guy, not the guy who always gets what he wants no matter the cost.

On a side note, jeez Felicity looks beautiful in that dress and up do. Cripes.

[KirkB]

All the color talk reminds me that the Atom's (Ray Palmer) suit is red and blue.

[Genki]

Actually one colour detail I've noticed this season is Felicity's nails always seem to be red this year. Maybe pink but always down that end of the colour spectrum. 

I can really tell the colour of the "date"nails they seem dark red...?

[foreverevolving]

She definitely seems to be able to hold her own against Oliver. Could she have had training before her obsession with the Arrow began? Did she have prior training in the comics? Because she managed to flip and handcuff him in that rail tracks scene.

In the Canadian promo you can see a pic of Cupid on the computer screen (when Oliver says "i've seen her before") in her civilian form wearing a police officer uniform, it's in the 00:10 second, so i would imagine police academy is where she got her martial arts knowledge- or some of it.

Edited November 17, 2014 by foreverevolving

[chaos is welcome]

I think it's a stupid homage to superman with the blue and red.

I see the red/blue as what the heart wants versus what is safe.  Also perhaps the modes by which they become a hero--by fire, by blood, whatever, versus a "blue collar" technical approach to heroism.   Its very deliberate though, for sure. 

[Ariah]

Cupid was

ex special ops

in the comics.

 

The Red vs Blue is for me Passion vs Calculation.

[Password]

Awwww I'm sure Ray Bans is passionate.

[Ariah]

From the spoiler pics I'd gather Oliver prefers more... hands-on approach. While Ray calculates the correct trajectory that will lead him towards Felicity's lips...

[tv echo]

You guys make a great point about how Ray with the salmon ladder is yet another anvil-heavy parallel with Oliver.  This season is like the 'Clone Wars' season - with the producers having Ray SWM Oliver, and Laurel SWF Sara. 

 

I may also be sitting out Eps. 10-12 until after I read the reviews here.

Edited November 17, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

The show has never been subtle with their parallels.  Ray's definitely seems like he's the 2nd 'paper perfect' companion for Felicity, Barry being the 1st.  But Felicity's comment in her Flash crossover about Oliver needing to do more than the salmon ladder to earn her trust now seems like foreshadowing to Ray's turn on Sally as he tries to win her respect, loyalty, I have no idea..

 

The general consensus among the Arrow fans I follow on Twitter is that no one is looking forward to watching Ep 10 & 11, at least not live.  The decided lack of SA (in current time, not just in flashbacks) is the biggest concern.  I also see a lot of concern about the amount of Diggle that we'll see. 

 

In light of how the Roy-centric episode actually seemed more of a Laurel one, I think there's a wariness about the upcoming episodes that is justified.  SA's absence during shooting over the past 10 days hasn't helped abate concerns either.

[Carrie Ann]

I just don't think there's any way they're resolving the love interest dimension of Ray before the winter hiatus. That still leaves 9 or 10 episodes with him in them, and there's just not enough for him to do, dramatically speaking, if he's not Felicity's love interest. So he needs to still be in the picture when we return from winter hiatus. Either they just begin dating at that point, or they're dating through the time jump, and the latter makes more sense to me if you want to up the dramatic stakes. If they are more firmly entrenched in a relationship by the time Oliver returns, then it will be harder for him to get her back. 

 

So I think that while Ep 7 may end with Felicity on the fence about Ray, I suspect that we'll have some indication by Ep 9 that they are seeing each other.

 

Obviously we still don't have even a glimmer of the circumstances around Oliver leaving, but if the writers were concerned about writing O & F IN character, then I just feel like Felicity's concern for Oliver if he were to disappear against his will, or mourning of him if he were to "die," would be so great that it would prevent her from dating Ray. And then when they get Oliver back, I think the relief would be so intense that she wouldn't be dating anyone else then either. Like, it would be painfully obvious that her heart is elsewhere.

 

So I think Oliver's leaving is "voluntary" on his part, and I think the big scene in Ep 9 could be Felicity laying it all out for Oliver, and asking him not to leave, and he's going to do it anyway. Even if it is a big martyr gesture on his part, that's sort of the problem. Felicity's left behind, again, by a man who claimed to love her, in what looks like a fatalistic move by a man who told her he believes he's going to die in that hood someday. She's not going to take that well, and I think if they say goodbye on that kind of note--where he's making a choice that he knows will hurt her--then it could cause her to close off those feelings for him, which allows her to continue to date Ray.

 

She would still have major feelings when Oliver returns, and I think it's the examination of all those feelings (as well as whatever work Oliver's going to put in) that will ultimately prove that he's the one for her, not Ray.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[wonderwall]

So I think Oliver's leaving is "voluntary" on his part, and I think the big scene in Ep 9 could be Felicity laying it all out for Oliver, and asking him not to leave, and he's going to do it anyway. Even if it is a big martyr gesture on his part, that's sort of the problem. Felicity's left behind, again, by a man who claimed to love her, in what looks like a fatalistic move by a man who told her he believes he's going to die in that hood someday. She's not going to take that well, and I think if they say goodbye on that kind of note--where he's making a choice that he knows will hurt her--then it could cause her to close off those feelings for him, which allows her to continue to date Ray.

 

She would still have major feelings when Oliver returns, and I think it's the examination of all those feelings (as well as whatever work Oliver's going to put in) that will ultimately prove that he's the one for her, not Ray.

If Felicity HAS to be with Ray, which I don't think she does, then I agree. Oliver shouldn't leave for the LoA in order to save Thea or for a mission or to take down the LoA from the inside. Otherwise this will make Felicity look incredibly INCREDIBLY selfish which she isn't. She understands Oliver and his mission. She understands the lengths he has to go to in order to complete them. So yeah, Oliver will have to leave voluntarily and by voluntarily I mean "I want to join the LoA because it's cool", which SO isn't what Oliver would do so if Felicity HAS to be with Ray, it'll be a lose lose situation for me... Smh

[Carrie Ann]

I guess I don't think it's selfish for Felicity to want Oliver to find some other way than offering himself up to the LOA, whether for Thea or to infiltrate them. I don't think she'll stay angry with him or anything, but even if she ultimately comes to see it as an impossible situation, her own history of abandonment and her fears of losing Oliver could make her put those walls back up. I would believe that from her character.

[Password]

Hmm if Oliver and Team Arrow see there's no other choice but for him to give himself up for his FAMILY, as much as Felicity has abandonment issues she's never been selfish. She acts with her heart but she definitely thinks with her mind. She knows Oliver is the self sacrificing kind and allowing something to happen to his only family isn't on the cards. She's even told Captain Lance that she thinks his self sacrificing ways make him a hero.

I definitely feel like it'll be more of a "I'm choosing to do this not because it's the only choice, but because I want to". Now if Oliver chooses to let her think that when he has different reasons, then fine. But he never lies to her and I don't think he'll start now. I'm definitely on the self sacrifice chain of thought. How Felicity reacts really depends on what they talk about and how ep 9 plays out.

Perhaps I'm not taking into account her abandonment issues, but in a situation like that, I don't think that's the route she'd go.

ETA: If Felicity does feel abandoned after he sacrifices himself for Thea I'd imagine Diggle would hit her with some truth bombs. Ain't about you sugar.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Limbo

[Carrie Ann]

I definitely see this line of thinking, but I think it's a matter of nuance. First, I would argue that Felicity's not a saint. She's capable of being selfish (she comes around, but in the moment, she often asks Oliver not to go out there and fight the thing when she's afraid for him, for example). She's also capable of having feelings that are at odds with her rational understanding of the situation. But more than that, I don't even think her feelings would be at odds with her rational mind--she can come to understand that Oliver has to do this, and that's the reality of his life, but the feelings she has could make her believe that it's not a reality she can live with.

 

Like I said, that doesn't mean she would direct these negative feelings AT Oliver, ultimately, as though he's done something wrong. But experiencing feelings of abandonment, or fear that he won't ever stop or lessen his load and will end up dead as he predicted, is natural, and I think she would go into self-protective mode (she's already there, so it's not hard to go deeper).

[Password]

Oh cool yeah it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility. But I'd hesitate to say that's how she'd react. Especially if HE makes declarations of his own. Gosh it really just depends on...everything really.

Though some bitterness over what could have been could certainly happen on her part.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I just don't think there's any way they're resolving the love interest dimension of Ray before the winter hiatus. That still leaves 9 or 10 episodes with him in them, and there's just not enough for him to do, dramatically speaking, if he's not Felicity's love interest. So he needs to still be in the picture when we return from winter hiatus. Either they just begin dating at that point, or they're dating through the time jump, and the latter makes more sense to me if you want to up the dramatic stakes. If they are more firmly entrenched in a relationship by the time Oliver returns, then it will be harder for him to get her back. 

 

So I think that while Ep 7 may end with Felicity on the fence about Ray, I suspect that we'll have some indication by Ep 9 that they are seeing each other.

 

Obviously we still don't have even a glimmer of the circumstances around Oliver leaving, but if the writers were concerned about writing O & F IN character, then I just feel like Felicity's concern for Oliver if he were to disappear against his will, or mourning of him if he were to "die," would be so great that it would prevent her from dating Ray. And then when they get Oliver back, I think the relief would be so intense that she wouldn't be dating anyone else then either. Like, it would be painfully obvious that her heart is elsewhere.

 

So I think Oliver's leaving is "voluntary" on his part, and I think the big scene in Ep 9 could be Felicity laying it all out for Oliver, and asking him not to leave, and he's going to do it anyway. Even if it is a big martyr gesture on his part, that's sort of the problem. Felicity's left behind, again, by a man who claimed to love her, in what looks like a fatalistic move by a man who told her he believes he's going to die in that hood someday. She's not going to take that well, and I think if they say goodbye on that kind of note--where he's making a choice that he knows will hurt her--then it could cause her to close off those feelings for him, which allows her to continue to date Ray.

 

She would still have major feelings when Oliver returns, and I think it's the examination of all those feelings (as well as whatever work Oliver's going to put in) that will ultimately prove that he's the one for her, not Ray.

 

I pretty much agree with your whole post.  I think that there's no way they're going to give us Olicity as soon as episode twelve, so they need to write in some sort of roadblock to prevent that from happening in February.  Sara was a roadblock last season, and I think that Ray is going to be the roadblock this season.  I think this is why the EPs are moving the Ray and Felicity relationship along so quickly...we need to have them dating before Oliver goes missing/leaves in episode nine.  'Cause I think that there's no way that Felicity would receive some heartfelt goodbye from Oliver in episode nine and then jump into a relationship with Ray in the two months that Oliver is gone. 

 

Speaking of heartfelt goodbyes...this big scene that's supposed to happen between Oliver and Felicity better be in person.  I don't want a goodbye over the comms because that would totally suck.  I feel that a passionate goodbye kiss might be appropriate as well :)  

Edited November 17, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[pivot]

There could be plenty for Ray to do outside a relationship with Felicity. He could also start his superhero journey. He has to become involved in the Arrow world somehow otherwise I can't see Arrow signing such a big star for someone who is just going to be a love interest for a secondary character. I could see Felicity and Ray dating up until episode 9 and then after Oliver's big goodbye, Ray and Felicity realize that their relationship won't work. I think having Felicity date Ray while Oliver is away with LoA or just missing would make Felicity unlikable to many viewers. Maybe they are that determined to return Laurel as the main female character and would be willing to destroy Felicity to do it? Seems incredibly short-sighted, but then again so did killing a popular character, Sara, so unpopular Laurel can take over Canary.

[apinknightmare]

Speaking of heartfelt goodbyes...this big scene that's supposed to happen between Oliver and Felicity better be in person. I don't want a goodbye over the comms because that would totally suck. I feel that a passionate goodbye kiss might be appropriate as well :)

I think it will be in person - this might be the one AK was present for when he tweeted that EBR and SA were "acting their butts off." If it was a goodbye over comms, I don't think they'd film it together at the same time.

[Axel]

I think Ray/Felicity are going to be like Oliver/Sara, somewhere between 313/318 and goodbye.

[Sunshine]

I just don't think there's any way they're resolving the love interest dimension of Ray before the winter hiatus. That still leaves 9 or 10 episodes with him in them, and there's just not enough for him to do, dramatically speaking, if he's not Felicity's love interest. So he needs to still be in the picture when we return from winter hiatus.

You may be right about the love interest dimension but isn't the dramatic dimension him becoming his alter ego and fighting crime? One of the pictures from 3.11 has him in a scene where a guy with a gun looks like he is down. Ray is adjusting his suit in a manner that makes me think he took part in an altercation. At some point I believe he lets Felicity in on what he is up to. EBR said they work on something together. This puts him in the picture when we return from hiatus even if he is not her love interest. I know it was advertised that way but I think the main focus is on costumed super hero not love interest.

[Carrie Ann]

There could be plenty for Ray to do outside a relationship with Felicity. He could also start his superhero journey. He has to become involved in the Arrow world somehow otherwise I can't see Arrow signing such a big star for someone who is just going to be a love interest for a secondary character. I could see Felicity and Ray dating up until episode 9 and then after Oliver's big goodbye, Ray and Felicity realize that their relationship won't work. I think having Felicity date Ray while Oliver is away with LoA or just missing would make Felicity unlikable to many viewers.

 

 

You may be right about the love interest dimension but isn't the dramatic dimension him becoming his alter ego and fighting crime? One of the pictures from 3.11 has him in a scene where a guy with a gun looks like he is down. Ray is adjusting his suit in a manner that makes me think he took part in an altercation. At some point I believe he lets Felicity in on what he is up to. EBR said they work on something together. This puts him in the picture when we return from hiatus even if he is not her love interest. I know it was advertised that way but I think the main focus is on costumed super hero not love interest.

 

Yes, Ray is also going to be pursuing his own Hero path (*cough* spinoff setup), but without Felicity as a personal connection, there's no dramatic heft to that on this show. They have to keep Felicity tightly in his orbit, not just in a professional/hero capacity. They have to have a personal relationship in order for any of that to work dramatically. We're not invested enough in Ray to care about his journey yet, except as it affects Felicity. He's not going to be out of the picture as her romantic interest as of the end of Episode 9, in my opinion.

 

As far as viewers not liking Felicity if Oliver declares his love and leaves anyway, and she proceeds with a relationship with Ray...shrug. She's not a doormat, and she already told him her position re: waiting with him while he heads down a path to his own death. If he takes another step on that path, and she goes down a different one, I'll applaud her. But again, this is why I feel like Oliver has to make this choice to leave. If he doesn't, and he's just missing or presumed dead, and Felicity's like, "Eh, onto the next," then I agree, that would be tough for viewers to take.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[statsgirl]

This speculating is full of all the tropes I most hate about TV show relationships.

 

I don't see why Felicity can't resolve her feelings about Ray before the winter hiatus.  Since we're going to be finding out about his true agenda, she can help him with that, with the tech and whatever else he needs.  And when she's found out that he's a good guy, she can let him in on some Team Arrow doings.  Oliver may be furious at her when he gets back but honestly I'd rather see Ray Palmer down in the lair than Laurel there.  (Also, I see Palmer as more of a team player than Laurel is.)

 

I would really rather prefer Ray to have a platonic connection with Felicity as she helps him become a superhero. We've been talking about Ugly Betty in the Quiver thread and I remember that the revolving door of love interests for both Daniel and Betty was why i stopped watching the show.

 

 

So I think Oliver's leaving is "voluntary" on his part, and I think the big scene in Ep 9 could be Felicity laying it all out for Oliver, and asking him not to leave, and he's going to do it anyway. Even if it is a big martyr gesture on his part, that's sort of the problem. Felicity's left behind, again, by a man who claimed to love her, in what looks like a fatalistic move by a man who told her he believes he's going to die in that hood someday. She's not going to take that well, and I think if they say goodbye on that kind of note--where he's making a choice that he knows will hurt her--then it could cause her to close off those feelings for him, which allows her to continue to date Ray.

 

I agree that the scene between Oliver and Felicity will most likely be Felicity asking him not to go and Oliver saying he has to, and that it will be "voluntary" in exchange for Thea's life or to train for some reason, that's a classic movie trope.  However, I agree with Limbo that Felicity has never been selfish so she'll be worried for his safety rather than angry at him for going.  She's disappointed in him for ending their relationship before it began for his emotional cowardice but she's always seen him as a hero and that is part of what a hero does.

 

I think the only thing that could turn me off Felicity is for her to date Palmer while Oliver is missing and they're all worried about him.  Either she loves him or she doesn't, and if she does, she shouldn't be dating someone else while he's missing.  When he's home and healthy and refusing to be with her, sure. But not when he's in danger.

 

One of the reasons I got into Arrow was because they didn't always do the expected or what everyone else is doing.  I'd be so disappointed if they did it now.

Edited November 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[DrSpaceman10]

I think the only thing that could turn me off Felicity is for her to date Palmer while Oliver is missing and they're all worried about him.  Either she loves him or she doesn't, and if she does, she shouldn't be dating someone else while he's missing.  When he's home and healthy and refusing to be with her, sure. But not when he's in danger.

 

But what if Team Arrow thinks that Oliver is dead rather than missing? I think SA said that 3x09 ends with a literal cliffhanger, Team Arrow might just think that he died.

[Password]

IMO if there are declarations of the ILY kind in ep 9, and Oliver either goes missing or martyrs himself for Thea, it would just seem like Felicity wouldn't necessarily be in the dating frame of mind. The guy she's in love with AND her partner in fighting is missing so, what does she have to do with dating?

Now we're assuming much, but I wouldn't put it past the writers to have Ray and Felicity not necessarily date yet but definitely grow close and Ray become a pillar for Felicity to lean on in this difficult time. I do think they'll eventually date (if not by the end of episode 7) but Sara and Oliver lasted 6 horrifying episodes which only started in ep 13. There's time for things to happen, especially considering a 6 week hiatus.

We'll get more of Ray-as-vigilante in 3B and I assume he and Felicity will work together closely. There's time for things to make sense. Now whether or not these writers will realise that, I don't know, but for now I'm just waiting on ep 7 to really see where we are on the Olicity and Ray Palmer front.

[statsgirl]

But what if Team Arrow thinks that Oliver is dead rather than missing? I think SA said that 3x09 ends with a literal cliffhanger, Team Arrow might just think that he died.

I've had people I loved die.  Three months later, the hurt still tears you up inside, years in my case.

 

You'd  have to be very shallow or very needy to start dating someone else in so short a time.

 

Just as Oliver got all sorts of shade for jumping into bed with Sara and staying there, Felicity is going to look the same if she's dating Ray whiie mourning Oliver.

 

Now we're assuming much, but I wouldn't put it past the writers to have Ray and Felicity not necessarily date yet but definitely grow close and Ray become a pillar for Felicity to lean on in this difficult time.

This seems more plausible, since he's the kind of guy who notices when she's upset.  It would also tie her closer to Ray when Oliver gets back so that if he's still pushing her away, she knows Ray is there for her.

 

I still don't see why Felicity can't date Ray in ep 307, realize he isn't Oliver, and end as platonic friends.  But then, I thought Oliver and Sara would have FWB sex in TOD and not fall into a pointless relationship.

[Danny Franks]

I've had people I loved die.  Three months later, the hurt still tears you up inside, years in my case.

 

You'd  have to be very shallow or very needy to start dating someone else in so short a time.

 

Just as Oliver got all sorts of shade for jumping into bed with Sara and staying there, Felicity is going to look the same if she's dating Ray whiie mourning Oliver.

 

This seems more plausible, since he's the kind of guy who notices when she's upset.  It would also tie her closer to Ray when Oliver gets back so that if he's still pushing her away, she knows Ray is there for her.

 

I still don't see why Felicity can't date Ray in ep 307, realize he isn't Oliver, and end as platonic friends.  But then, I thought Oliver and Sara would have FWB sex in TOD and not fall into a pointless relationship.

 

Honestly, Felicity being written as a shallow, plot-driven shell of a character who dates 50 Shades because the writers want her to? Sounds exactly like something I'd expect from these writers. The reasons you give for why she shouldn't do that are all valid, but they're valid from the point of view of someone who puts character ahead of plot.

 

This little timeline of a show's life always feels appropriate to me when I talk about this sort of thing. Looks like Arrow is way ahead of the curve though so... congrats to them for that. I guess. Season 5 to 6 pace already. Good stuff, guys!

Edited November 17, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Password]

Whilst I couldn't deal with Sara and Oliver's beloved relationship, I know people have said Oliver so willingly jumped into bed her with her because she was familiar and they comforted each other physically. The exact same thing could actually happen with Ray and Felicity because people grieve in different ways. (That's to say if Oliver died, or they think he did). I wouldn't like it, I had zero time for Oliver and Sara but Felicity (because I have a massive soft spot for her) I would roll my eyes behind her back instead of to her face like with Oliver. But like I said, if anything other than death happened I.e. he went missing or martyd himself, I'd think the team would desperately try to get him back and be too distracted for extracurriculars...or the comfort thing could apply here too. Depends on what happens and what is said between our two idiots.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I still don't see why Felicity can't date Ray in ep 307, realize he isn't Oliver, and end as platonic friends.  But then, I thought Oliver and Sara would have FWB sex in TOD and not fall into a pointless relationship.

 

I think that it all boils down to the EPs needing an excuse to keep Felicity and Oliver apart.  If Felicity and Ray decide before the mid-season break that they just want to be platonic friends, there's nothing to keep Olicity from happening pretty quickly when Oliver returns in episode twelve (or thereabouts).  Felicity likely has abandonment issues from the men in her life leaving her, but I'm not sure that she'd be able to refuse Oliver for very long if he's aggressively pursuing her when he returns.  I think that they are going to throw Ray in the mix so Felicity has a reason not to be with Oliver at first.  Later on in the season, I think that she'll be perfectly happy with her relationship with Ray, but she'll decide that it's not enough because she loves Oliver and wants to be with him.  You know, that red pill/blue pill thing that people have been mentioning.

 

ETA:  Yes, I think that this is dumb and absolutely not the only way to go about keeping the two apart, but the EPs are not very original.

Edited November 17, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[Danny Franks]

I think that it all boils down to the EPs needing an excuse to keep Felicity and Oliver apart.  If Felicity and Ray decide before the mid-season break that they just want to be platonic friends, there's nothing to keep Olicity from happening pretty quickly when Oliver returns in episode twelve (or thereabouts).  Felicity likely has abandonment issues from the men in her life leaving her, but I'm not sure that she'd be able to refuse Oliver for very long if he's aggressively pursuing her when he returns.  I think that they are going to throw Ray in the mix so Felicity has a reason not to be with Oliver at first.  Later on in the season, I think that she'll be perfectly happy with her relationship with Ray, but she'll decide that it's not enough because she loves Oliver and wants to be with him.  You know, that red pill/blue pill thing that people have been mentioning.

 

Easy answer? Don't have Oliver aggressively pursue her. Just have him be hesitant for a while, and leave things unresolved until closer to the end of the season. TV writing seems to always go for the big nonsense reasoning, instead of those niggly little things that seem avoidable. I guess it's because most TV writers aren't too good at subtle and understated.

 

Which is why they're sure to go for the '50 Shades is Oliver but better. But he's not Oliver' trope, like every damned show with a 'will they, won't they' couple has. And every time, they seem to think they're being original.

[writersblock51]

Wow, that timeline is so accurate and so disheartening for this show (and Sleepy Hollow, I fear).

Edited November 17, 2014 by writersblock51

[Password]

Later on in the season, I think that she'll be perfectly happy with her relationship with Ray, but she'll decide that it's not enough because she loves Oliver and wants to be with him.  You know, that red pill/blue pill thing that people have been mentioning.

This is actually what worries me. I want to fully understand and agree with Felicity for leaving Ray and choosing Oliver because I have no time to be frustrated with someone who has a perfectly good relationship but ends it because reasons. Perhaps I'm not being very understanding with the whole "ILY but..." scenatio but please show...make me understand perfectly well. Personally I wouldn't strike up a relationship with Ray in the first place but seeing as we're going there...I just need to be convinced.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I would definitely prefer a situation where Oliver pursues a single Felicity but she's just too afraid of being hurt again, so she shuts him down (for a while).  But, haha, these writers are probably going to go the most obvious route: love triangle. 

[Danny Franks]

Wow, that timeline is so accurate and so disheartening for this show (and Sleepy Hollow, I fear).

 

This is the bit that really resonates with me:

 

"The characters now bend and twist to accommodate increasingly harebrained plots, as opposed to plots being shaped by characters."

 

It's just so tragically, infuriatingly true of almost any show I can think of, and yet like a mug I keep finding new shows and hoping for something different. But that timeline has this scheduled for season 7. It's already happening on Arrow, as far as I can tell. I dread to think what Felicity will be like by season 7 of this show (as remote a prospect that seems, right now). I can't imagine she'll actually be anything like Felicity any more.

[Password]

To be fair, the fact that they're doing it now may be reason to think it'll be done with sooner so Olicity is resolved sooner.

[statsgirl]

I remember Terri Miller re-tweeting that timeline during Castle s3, gleefully since it said the show was in its golden time, while I was absolutely hating the stupid plot contrivances to keep the couple apart.

 

I wish more shows planned in five (B5) or seven (Star Trek) arcs so it still made sense in later seasons.

 

While I liked Slade's arc last season (if only there had been less Lance Family Drama), Ra's Al Ghul is not doing it for me this year, and having him as the Big Bad this year means whoever it is next season, it's going to be a lesser villain.

 

Using Ray to keep Oliver and Felicity apart in 3B is just a terrible idea.  Harlequin romances are written better.

[Danny Franks]

This is actually what worries me. I want to fully understand and agree with Felicity for leaving Ray and choosing Oliver because I have no time to be frustrated with someone who has a perfectly good relationship but ends it because reasons. Perhaps I'm not being very understanding with the whole "ILY but..." scenatio but please show...make me understand perfectly well. Personally I wouldn't strike up a relationship with Ray in the first place but seeing as we're going there...I just need to be convinced.

 

I still don't understand why they would need Felicity to date someone so that she consciously chooses Oliver. Wouldn't it be a stronger choice, for a stronger character, if she was offered some great guy and said, 'no, I won't date you because I love someone else'. Somehow, that would make her weak in the eyes of the writers, and probably in the eyes of a considerable section of the audience too.

 

 

I remember Terri Miller re-tweeting that timeline during Castle s3, gleefully since it said the show was in its golden time, while I was absolutely hating the stupid plot contrivances to keep the couple apart.

 

 

That's where I first saw it, yeah. I hope someone sent it to her again, later on, asking how it was working out for them. That was another show that was ahead of the curve though, because I don't think they ever had a season that was even a fraction as strong as season 2. As soon as they decided to hit the romantic angst in any significant way, the whole thing fell apart.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Using Ray to keep Oliver and Felicity apart in 3B is just a terrible idea.  Harlequin romances are written better.

 

Which is exactly why I think that the EPs are going to do it.  They are nothing if not consistent with their terrible, horrible, no good, very bad ideas.

[SonofaBiscuit]

There's some new spoilers posted over in the other thread.  So Diggle has "his most emotional scene" with Laurel in episode 10.  I really hope that we get at least one meaningful Diggle/Felicity scene before that.  I really think that his "most emotional scene" (probably about Oliver missing/being presumed dead) should be with Felicity, but whatever.

 

So we're going to see flashbacks to a young Nyssa?  Why are they wasting time on stuff like that instead of the things that people care about?

Edited November 17, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[apinknightmare]

There's some new spoilers posted over in the other thread. So Diggle has "his most emotional scene" with Laurel in episode 10. I really hope that we get at least one meaningful Diggle/Felicity scene before that. I really think that his "most emotional scene" (probably about Oliver missing/being presumed dead) should be with Felicity, but whatever.

His most emotional scene is going to be a parallel between his wanting revenge for Andy's death and Laurel wanting revenge for Sara's. Hopefully he tells Laurel to stop being such a failure at it.

[looptab]

I hope so too. I got so mad when I read that! But there has to be something significant with Felicity..I mean they have been the three of them for how long? I hope they are not so dumb as to miss that.

[catrox14]

I hope whatever the emotional scene is that it's Diggle reading Laurel the riot act in some way. That maybe John will blame Laurel for whatever has happened to Oliver or that Diggle tells Laurel to step off with trying to boss him around in the lair. I sure don't want to see him comfort her because that is his job with Felicity.

[SleepDeprived]

Diggle's going to propose to Lyla by the end of 3x08 ("The Brave and The Bold")!! Going to call that now and cling a little to it because I need something nice and fluffy from Arrow.

 

There's some new spoilers posted over in the other thread.  So Diggle has "his most emotional scene" with Laurel in episode 10.  I really hope that we get at least one meaningful Diggle/Felicity scene before that.  I really think that his "most emotional scene" (probably about Oliver missing/being presumed dead) should be with Felicity, but whatever.

 

Agreed. The episode is called "Left Behind" so I bet we'll see a lot of how the Team reacts to/copes with Oliver being gone. Though as much as I want an emotional scene between Diggle and Felicity, I think, perhaps, this particular "most emotional" one that MG hinted at will come about because Diggle sort of blows up at Laurel? Maybe Laurel pushes too much and decides that saving the city is up to them now/tries to commandeer Team Arrow operations/pushes for TA to find Sara's killer while Diggle is having none of that since he just lost his brother-in-arms and everything just boils over. In any case, I'm happy for DR that he might get something juicy to sink his teeth into.

[JenMcSnark]

They act like Felicity has been stuck in a closet her entire life and has never dated before.  I'm sure she has enough life experience, being the beautiful and amazing woman that she is, to decided whether or not Oliver Queen is right for her without having to date Ray Palmer.  

 

I don't dislike Ray Palmer.  And to be quite honest, I'm really getting the feeling that this season is definitely the dangling of Olicity with no fruition in sight.  I don't think it's going to happen.  And it's really the least of my concerns.

 

I'm more concerned that John Diggle's most emotional scene EVAH! is coming up in 310 with none other than Laurel.  This bothers me because we have had Mr. Roboto Diggle where Felicity is concerned this entire season when she had every reason to need his support.  And before, they have been shown to be quite close.  

 

The signs (in my eyes) are pointing to completely replacing the OG Team Arrow dynamic with the Arrow and Black Canary show featuring Roy Harper, John Diggle, Thea Queen, and Felicity Smoak.  And probably in that order. 

Edited November 17, 2014 by JenMcSnark

[statsgirl]

I laughed at the "be careful what you wish for" in response to the Diggle question.  He knows his audience.

 

Since it was MG who said it, I'm not going to worry.  He was the one who said Laurel was "Emmy-worthy" in TOD.  The man is propping a different show than I'm watching.  I was hoping he would tell Laurel off but since it's so emotional, probably not.

 

I don't see why we need young Nyssa scenes now that Sara is dead, but they're clearly enamoured of Ra's and like  Ray Palmer, are going to play him up for all he's worth.

 

 

I still don't understand why they would need Felicity to date someone so that she consciously chooses Oliver. Wouldn't it be a stronger choice, for a stronger character, if she was offered some great guy and said, 'no, I won't date you because I love someone else'. Somehow, that would make her weak in the eyes of the writers, and probably in the eyes of a considerable section of the audience too.

I think one date is okay given that Oliver just rejected her, especially since it sounds like Ray springs it on her as a business occasion.  But to have her in a relationship with him given that she's just told Barry it's still Oliver for her, no.

[Guest]

I think that it all boils down to the EPs needing an excuse to keep Felicity and Oliver apart.  If Felicity and Ray decide before the mid-season break that they just want to be platonic friends, there's nothing to keep Olicity from happening pretty quickly when Oliver returns in episode twelve (or thereabouts).  Felicity likely has abandonment issues from the men in her life leaving her, but I'm not sure that she'd be able to refuse Oliver for very long if he's aggressively pursuing her when he returns.  I think that they are going to throw Ray in the mix so Felicity has a reason not to be with Oliver at first.  Later on in the season, I think that she'll be perfectly happy with her relationship with Ray, but she'll decide that it's not enough because she loves Oliver and wants to be with him.  You know, that red pill/blue pill thing that people have been mentioning.

 

The thing is I actually think there is enough reason for Felicity and Oliver to be kept apart a while longer without a love interest. Oliver ended things with Felicity before they even begun so even without Ray she's going to be seriously hesitant to start something with Oliver again. He hurt her, intentionally or not. She'd be wary of getting hurt again, of taking that risk, and she'll probably want to protect herself. Ray shouldn't even come into it. The EP's just wanted to do a love triangle again because apparently that's how they like to write TV romance. It's basically s1 all over again and it's boring.

 

I guess I'm one of those people who doesn't need to see someone with another love interest just to prove that they're strong and moving on. You can move on without sleeping with other people. I'm not saying I want Felicity to sit around and wait for Oliver because absolutely not. That's not who she is. But I also think this Ray stuff has happened way too quickly and sometimes it's ok to be on your own. Like, personally speaking, if the man I loved told me he loved me but couldn't be with me I don't think I'd even be thinking of dating and kissing other people for a while. It doesn't mean I'm sitting around waiting for him to change his mind or come to his senses, it just means I'd be too devastated to process that for a while. But then again, I'm not on a TV show so what do I know?!

 

 

There's some new spoilers posted over in the other thread.  So Diggle has "his most emotional scene" with Laurel in episode 10.  I really hope that we get at least one meaningful Diggle/Felicity scene before that.  I really think that his "most emotional scene" (probably about Oliver missing/being presumed dead) should be with Felicity, but whatever.

 

So we're going to see flashbacks to a young Nyssa?  Why are they wasting time on stuff like that instead of the things that people care about?

 

JFC, I'm disliking pretty much everything I hear about the episodes after winter hiatus. They really are determined to have Laurel front and centre of everything. I just don't get it. I suppose I should be grateful for a Diggle scene at least. Right? 

 

And flashbacks to a young Nyssa? This is just like the possible flashbacks for Ray. What is the point? Do they remember this show is called Arrow? FML.