Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Midnight Lullaby]

20 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

This show is dead without Amell. Dead, deceased, pushing up daisies. It cannot go on without Oliver Queen since it's about his journey, he's the lead. It started with him and it will end with him. The CW and the series creators would end the show if SA left. Same with the Flash. Grant is the Flash. He is the lead and it's about his journey first and foremost. I don't watch "Grey's Anatomy" but it's the kind of show that usually can survive without the lead, but Shonda Rhimes says the show is dead whenever Ellen Pompeo says no more. She's ready to move on.

You can’t know that...if the network thinks the shows can be profitable with new leads and the producers and other actors agree they will go on without SA or Grant. It’s not about whose story it is, it’s about money.

[Primal Slayer]

I can totally see CW trying to be greedy and have the show go on with someone new under the cowl. They lost Nina Dobrev on TVD and kept it going for 2 years, Once Upon A Time got rid of majority of their cast and their lead character was gone along with other shows that have tried to go on. If say David Ramsey was willing to keep on, or trying a new hot actor. 

[Simba122504]

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

You can’t know that...if the network thinks the shows can be profitable with new leads and the producers and other actors agree they will go on without SA or Grant. It’s not about whose story it is, it’s about money.

Neither one would survive. It's about Grant's Flash and Amell's Arrow. That's what those shows are about. It's about their journey. Nobody would watch. Their shadow would never leave. That's like the X-Files without both M&S. Who's going to watch? Perry Mason without Perry Mason. Smallville without Clark Clark. Bond without Bond. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Simba122504

[Primal Slayer]

The X-Files went on for 2 seasons without Mulder. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

There’s no way of knowing why people watch or if they’d find a different version of a show they liked appealing..we can only know if we would watch or not.

[Simba122504]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

The X-Files went on for 2 seasons without Mulder. 

I said without either one. It would not last. One lead was still onboard.

40 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

There’s no way of knowing why people watch or if they’d find a different version of a show they liked appealing..we can only know if we would watch or not.

I know both would be canceled by the network because of poor ratings. Barry and Oliver's shadows would never leave. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Simba122504

[Midnight Lullaby]

18 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

 

I know both would be canceled by the network because of poor ratings. Barry and Oliver's shadows would never leave. 

Sorry to disappoint you but you don’t predict the future. I also have no interest in arguing about Barry or Oliver that were not even the point of my post if you bothered to read it so have a nice evening.

[Simba122504]

6 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Sorry to disappoint you but you don’t predict the future. I also have no interest in arguing about Barry or Oliver that were not even the point of my post if you bothered to read it so have a nice evening.

I'm just pointing out the truth. But neither one of us are going to change our views on that topic and this thread is about Arrow spoilers : )

Edited December 17, 2017 by Simba122504

[WindofChange]

I actually think unlike Arrow, The Flash can survive a reboot. Barry isn't very likable and with who they cast as Dawn, it's very possible that they can just make the show about her...

Edited December 17, 2017 by WindofChange

[LeighAn]

3 hours ago, WindofChange said:

I actually think unlike Arrow, The Flash can survive a reboot. Barry isn't very likable and with who they cast as Dawn, it's very possible that they can just make the show about her...

Or Wally. I actually find it very convenient that both The Flash and Arrow have set up the show with the foresight that both Green Arrow and Flash have character who are waiting in the wings to carry on with out Oliver and Barry. They've set up Diggle as some who could carry on the Green Arrow mantle and even have a new "OTA" characters should Emily for instance decide to leave or be forced to leave if Stephen does (since unless they kill Oliver off it would be hard for them to write him out without his wife)

 

And on The Flash they can have Wally or even his future kids take over the mantle to carry the show on beyond Grants contract. 

[Primal Slayer]

I wonder what they would do if SA left but EBR decided to stay. Would Oliver become president and move to Washington while Felicity stays behind?

[Mellowyellow]

I wonder if they'd do something hokey like have them still married but Oliver would be off screen constantly while she is Overwatch and occasionally Felicity will throw in a line about what Oliver is up to these days. 

They can even have SA guest star once a blue moon to give her a kiss at the end of the day when she goes home. Haha I'd totally watch that! 

[catrox14]

16 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

You can’t know that...if the network thinks the shows can be profitable with new leads and the producers and other actors agree they will go on without SA or Grant. It’s not about whose story it is, it’s about money.

I disagree it's not about whose story it is. Arrow is about Oliver Queen and always has been. They could try and reconnoiter the mother ship and rebrand to Justice League or the like and make it an ensemble piece.IMO they are already basically heading that way with showing multiple symbols for each member of Team Not!Arrow. IMO the original mother ship in its current form should end when and if  SA leaves out of respect to the actor and the character. IMO they should create a new score that has echoes of the Arrow theme but it should be an entirely new piece.

[tv echo]

At ACE Comic Con last weekend, when talking about how Oliver is a flawed character, MG said: "The moment Oliver gets all his stuff together, that's probably when the show ends." (ACE Comic Con, Dec. 9, 2017: ACE Universe video of Anti-Heroes panel, page 653 of Social Media thread and page 451 of Mind Your Surroundings thread)

In a prior interview, when asked if they have an endpoint in mind for Oliver's story as the GA, MG said: "We don't know when [unintelligible words] ends. Though, I think, a lot of times, it just depends upon Stephen, the ratings." (Nov. 7, 2017 WCCB video of MG interview, page 12 of New Spoilers thread)

Of course, MG is not the network president; that's Mark Pedowitz. So if The CW wanted Arrow to continue without SA, then that'll happen.  Personally, I think that SA will stick with the show until it ends. 

By the way, I was trying to figure out the filming schedules for post-610 episodes. Based on the 8 days shooting per episode formula (plus factoring in Thanksgiving, 11/23, and a few cast tweets-SA tweeted they were shooting 612 on 11/28), I believe that Arrow was shooting or wrapping up 614 right before they went on holiday hiatus on Dec. 15.

610:  October 27-November 7, 2017 (from title page)
611:  November [8-15], 2017
612:  November [16-28], 2017
613:  November [29]-December [7], 2017
614:  December [8-15], 2017

615:  January [2-9], 2018

Edited December 17, 2017 by tv echo

[Midnight Lullaby]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I disagree it's not about whose story it is. Arrow is about Oliver Queen and always has been. They could try and reconnoiter the mother ship and rebrand to Justice League or the like and make it an ensemble piece.IMO they are already basically heading that way with showing multiple symbols for each member of Team Not!Arrow. IMO the original mother ship in its current form should end when and if  SA leaves out of respect to the actor and the character. IMO they should create a new score that has echoes of the Arrow theme but it should be an entirely new piece.

My original point that was apparently lost a while ago was that it’s fiction, not real life so in theory you can try to replace a character, to rebrand a show, to go on with new people. It might end up being a successful idea or not but it’s possible because the characters aren’t real people, the story isn’t a real one so they bend to what the creators decide to do. I was making that point because we were talking about Willa leaving and I was saying the creators might mind that they won’t be able to use Thea anymore but it doesn’t mean they can’t try to do the show without her.

I don’t know what the CW would do if SA left and I don’t really care honestly. Like he has a right to move on to other projects they have a right to keep trying to make money..I don’t get anything out of this and if I’m not into a show anymore I just drop it, no big deal.

[Morrigan2575]

17 minutes ago, tv echo said:

610:  October 27-November 7, 2017 (from title page)

611:  November [8-15], 2017
612:  November [16-28], 2017
613:  November [29]-December [7], 2017
614:  December [8-15], 2017

615:  January [2-9], 2018

8 Business days not calendar days, they don't work weekends even Fraturday shoots are considered Fridays.

610:  October 27-November 7, 2017 (from title page)

611:  November [8-17], 2017
612:  November [20-29], 2017
613:  November [30]-December [11], 2017
614:  December [12-21], 2017 (or they break and finish in January I don't know when they wrap for the year)

615:  January [2-11], 2018 (unless they have to finish filming 614)

[tv echo]

Argh... I wish MG would just tweet the title pages for those episodes.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

My original point that was apparently lost a while ago was that it’s fiction, not real life so in theory you can try to replace a character, to rebrand a show, to go on with new people. It might end up being a successful idea or not but it’s possible because the characters aren’t real people, the story isn’t a real one so they bend to what the creators decide to do. I was making that point because we were talking about Willa leaving and I was saying the creators might mind that they won’t be able to use Thea anymore but it doesn’t mean they can’t try to do the show without her.

I don’t know what the CW would do if SA left and I don’t really care honestly. Like he has a right to move on to other projects they have a right to keep trying to make money..I don’t get anything out of this and if I’m not into a show anymore I just drop it, no big deal.

I didn't lose the tread of the conversation. I was addressing the idea specifically of the show continuing in it's current form without SA and IMO, it cannot.  And yes it is a work of fiction to be sure, and I don't think anyone has said anything differently. There are real people, though, who work to create that piece of fiction. SA worked his ass off to make sure he could overcome the memory of Justin Hartley and make Oliver Queen his own. IMO, without SA's devotion to making Oliver Queen work, the show would have failed and they wouldn't have recast the part.  And yes, I do think the network and TPTB at DCTV and WBTV would give SA / Oliver Queen a proper farewell, when the time comes.  That's all I'm saying. Nothing to do with how and when or why people watch.

Thea can leave and the show is not fundamentally altered at it's core. SA leaves and there is no Arrow as it is now nor should it be IMO. That's my point

[Midnight Lullaby]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't lose the tread of the conversation. I was addressing the idea specifically of the show continuing in it's current form without SA and IMO, it cannot.  And yes it is a work of fiction to be sure, and I don't think anyone has said anything differently. There are real people, though, who work to create that piece of fiction. SA worked his ass off to make sure he could overcome the memory of Justin Hartley and make Oliver Queen his own. IMO, without SA's devotion to making Oliver Queen work, the show would have failed and they wouldn't have recast the part.  And yes, I do think the network and TPTB at DCTV and WBTV would give SA / Oliver Queen a proper farewell, when the time comes.  That's all I'm saying. Nothing to do with how and when or why people watch.

Thea can leave and the show is not fundamentally altered at it's core. SA leaves and there is no Arrow as it is now nor should it be IMO. That's my point

No, I was saying the thread of the conversation was lost before you replied, not that you lost it because it was about Willa and Thea, not about SA, Grant, Arrow or Flash or anything else..

SA worked a lot to make the show a success and I’m sure the creators and network are grateful but also I’m sure he is grateful because Arrow changed a lot for him and if he ever decided to move on I don’t think he would be so self centered to think because he doesn’t want to be on the show anymore the show shouldn’t exist. We look at it as viewers but there are more important things to consider like all the jobs of the people working on the show. I don’t even think he would move on from the show at this point. If things with Turtles turned out differently yes, but they didn’t so I think he’ll stick around until the end.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Morrigan2575]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thea can leave and the show is not fundamentally altered at it's core. SA leaves and there is no Arrow as it is now nor should it be IMO. That's my point

Arrow ends when SA leaves, no question, don't even understand the debate. They may attempt a finale spinoff like The Closer went to Major Crimes, keeping most of the parent shows supporting cast but, honestly I don't see that happening either. The noobs have not caught on in any shape or form and the ratings for all DC CW shows are on the decline.  By the time Arrow ends, either after S7 or later (if SA resigns his contract - I think he will) Arrow won't have the ratings to sustain another spinoff.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Primal Slayer]

Since the show is called Arrow, they would just need to have a new Arrow take over. Whether it's successful would be a different story. But just like Once Upon A Time, it was for all intents and purposes, Emma Swans story. she was the hero and now she is gone and they moved on to Henry being the hero. Itd really go down to how it's promoted and if they can get some fresh stories out of say Diggle or "William", whoever they'd have take over. 

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Since the show is called Arrow, they would just need to have a new Arrow take over. Whether it's successful would be a different story. But just like Once Upon A Time, it was for all intents and purposes, Emma Swans story. she was the hero and now she is gone and they moved on to Henry being the hero. Itd really go down to how it's promoted and if they can get some fresh stories out of say Diggle or "William", whoever they'd have take over. 

Sure they could do it, but I don't think they should do it that way. Make it a spinoff. Don't dilute Oliver's journey to becoming THE OG Green Arrow. And I don't think the showrunners nor CW will do that with Arrow. They can let close out and take the remaining creatives, the cast and production team to a spinoff called The Green Arrow be it Diggle or a grown up Connor or whatever person dons the costume. Make it clear that Oliver is retiring or is killed, doesn't play to ever pick up the bow and arrow again. Oliver's story is the Arrow's story. There is really no question about it.  Once Upon a Time was her story but the show is literally not named after the character so that makes a big difference. Supernatural is probably the closest to OUAT with a not name specific title but the show is clearly about the Winchester brothers no matter how many other characters come into their orbit.  In the end once the Js decide it's time to end it they will end Supernatural properly and I don't think they will attach "Supernatural" to any other show name that does not feature the J2.  I think they will do the same with SA and Arrow.  As far as SPN spoiler alert:

Spoiler

They are crafting a spinoff but it will not be named Supernatural. It will be called Wayward Sisters.  Who knows if it will succeed to series or not but they have been using SPN to build it along the way.

[Velocity23]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

8 Business days not calendar days, they don't work weekends even Fraturday shoots are considered Fridays.

610:  October 27-November 7, 2017 (from title page)

611:  November [8-17], 2017
612:  November [20-29], 2017
613:  November [30]-December [11], 2017
614:  December [12-21], 2017 (or they break and finish in January I don't know when they wrap for the year)

615:  January [2-11], 2018 (unless they have to finish filming 614)

They also had a break for American Thanksgiving. Didnt film on 23rd and 24th November. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Replying in Hopes and Fears thread about Arrow's possible ending, etc. 

[Morrigan2575]

SpoilerTV has the episode titles for 13-14, I'm posting them here for now because the last few times SpoilerTV had titles they ended up being wrong.

https://www.spoilertv.com/2017/12/arrow-episode-613-614-titles-revealed.html?m=1

Quote

SpoilerTV has learned that Episode 6.13 of Arrow is titled The Devil's Greatest Trick and Episode 6.14 is titled Collision Course.

I love the "title" for 613 because it reminds me of the line from The Usual Suspects "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"

This made me think of our previous conversation about ME/James disappearing after 613. Could be interesting if true.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[way2interested]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

This made me think of our previous conversation about ME/James disappearing after 613. Could be interesting if true.

Yeah, it strikes me as (if it is the title) that they'll be some other twist with the villains and maybe that'll be why he leaves either temporarily or permanently (ex: he's not who he says he is, someone else else is pulling the strings, etc.) or that the middle x13-x17/18 section will be kicked off by some other twist by CJ (maybe they figure they can pin this whole investigation on CJ then poof he disappears from existence and leaves all the evidence --footage of the bunker, Felicity's digital fingerprints, etc.-- pointing back to them).

[LeighAn]

I just hope Jerk Avacado doesn't  end up being the big bad because he doesn't deserve it (nor does his wife). I would rather have DJ Chase as horrible as he was in every way, come back from the dead to be big bad then KA ?

Edited December 18, 2017 by LeighAn

[Primal Slayer]

3 hours ago, LeighAn said:

I just hope Jerk Avacado doesn't  end up being the big bad because he doesn't deserve it (nor does his wife). I would rather have DJ Chase as horrible as he was in every way, come back from the dead to be big bad then KA ?

It would be art imitating life though..  

[Velocity23]

"Yeah, I think you know as a result we've been on and off," Guggenheim said. "For a time they were saying 'you can't use Deathstroke', and that changed and we were able to have Slade Wilson back on the show, and now we're back to 'you can't use him'. They're working on the feature film version, it really is sort of now that you've got obviously Slade, spoiler alert, Deathstroke appears at the end of the Justice League movie."

While it meant that Slade is off limits (at least for awhile), Guggenheim and Bennett both like what Joe is doing.

[way2interested]

Quote

While it meant that Slade is off limits (at least for awhile), Guggenheim and Bennett both like what Joe is doing.

One of my friends after watching the Slade episodes made a bet that Joe would come back and be the villain for s7, idk about that, but now I wonder if they'll bring back Joe now that they can't use Slade (and if that's why they introduced him in the first place).

[bijoux]

I think they mean Joe Magianello, not Joe the character. ?

[Primal Slayer]

This doesn't surprise me that much and what I thought brought about doing the Slade 2 parter so early. DC/WB need to not being so antsy. 

[catrox14]

I know Colin Donnell is doing Chicago Med, but after seeing him be Prometheus and IMO doing a great job with the evil, I really hope they can find a way to have him back as The Dark  Archer 2.0. Since they have a way to Earth 2, they could bring him back and give him the redemption they so badly seem to think not!Laurel should have. I don't want to see poor Quentin stuck with KC and her crappy Black Siren/not Laurel. I wish he would just kill her LOL.

[way2interested]

Just now, bijoux said:

I think they mean Joe Magianello, not Joe the character. ?

Makes way more sense but gah I'm hungry for actual spoilers here.

[catrox14]

I would much rather see Oliver attempt to save Tommy Merlyn from Dark Archer fate than another moment of KC's crap acting. I would much rather see SA and CD spar for the rest of the series

[Primal Slayer]

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

At least CD can play a believable potato and believable vodka.  KC can't even play a believable anything, much less  compelling/funny alcoholic villain and really you should never put the brilliance of Karen Walker into the same universe as KC/any incarnation of Laurel.  JMHO YMMV

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, catrox14 said:

At least CD can play a believable potato and believable vodka.  KC can't even play a believable anything, much less  compelling/funny alcoholic villain and really you should never put the brilliance of Karen Walker into the same universe as KC/any incarnation of Laurel.  JMHO YMMV

Lol, I think KC plays them all well so the brilliance of Karen Walker is well placed.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Lol, I think KC plays them all well so the brilliance of Karen Walker is well placed.

Has KC ever played anything intentionally funny? I mean I laughed a lot at her acting....

Anyway, we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on the merits of KC's acting LOL

[Primal Slayer]

Playing intentionally funny wasn't part of what they gave her in Arrow so that's moot  but to go back to your original statement of believable, thats the whole point. She did a great job with what they gave her in S2. And of course we are going to have to agree to disagree, its a never ending cycle lol.

[ladylaw99]

I for one am happy that there is no Deathstroke for awhile.  As much as I enjoyed Slade in season 1 and 2 this last ark was so boring.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Has KC ever played anything intentionally funny? I mean I laughed a lot at her acting....

Anyway, we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on the merits of KC's acting LOL

Noooooo. KC can't act, I mean she just really can't. I don't know how anyone can expect me to classify:

Look up, look down deliver line

Look down, Deep breath deliver line

Following the laser light on the floor 

Robot powering down in background

Blank stare, no facial movement, deliver line

Drunken Slut walk

Runway Walk

As acting. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Noooooo. KC can't act, I mean she just really can't. I don't know how anyone can expect me to classify:

Look up, look down deliver line

Look down, Deep breath deliver line

Following the laser light on the floor 

Robot powering down in background

Blank stare, no facial movement, deliver line

Drunken Slut walk

Runway Walk

As acting. 

Legit snort at Following the laser light and robot powering down. LOL

[Hiveminder]

Can we just call it drunk walk?  Does it have to be drunken slut walk?

[Morrigan2575]

8 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Can we just call it drunk walk?  Does it have to be drunken slut walk?

Call it what you want. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Can we just call it drunk walk?  Does it have to be drunken slut walk?

To be fair, there are two different versions of the drunk walk, one is Laurel in her regular clothing stumbling about her apartment. And one is Black Siren, who is purposefully dressed, and behaving in a sexually provocative way, in order to seduce and murder people in her role as a Poor Man's Femme Fatale, so maybe drunken slut is not the worst description.

Edited December 21, 2017 by catrox14
spelling matters

[tv echo]

I just posted video of a Dec. 19th Backstage Live interview with Michael Emerson, where he appears to confirm that he has a 7-episode arc on Arrow this season. Since 3 of those episodes have already aired (604, 607, 609), that leaves 4 unaired episodes. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by tv echo

[way2interested]

The four are probably 610, 611, 612, and 613 leading to their Olympics hiatus if they're taking one. Although, huh, I wonder where they're going with this since the pretty much big bad of the season is leaving almost halfway through the season. 

[statsgirl]

If ME has only 4 more episodes, I wonder if that means that he's not the season's Big Bad after all.  The Big Bad usually rises and then stumbles during May sweeps.

[insomniadreams88]

Please don't let this mean Dragon's the Big Bad.