Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Nice to see them talking about Michael Emerson. Finally! I'm pretty sure he is Cayden James but I do find it strange how they're holding that back. 

Weird they're only just casting Vigilante when we were told it would be someone we've already seen. I'm guessing that means we've probably only seen him once or twice and when his identity is revealed, another character will just remind us who that is. Haha.

I guess if they are dealing with casting it means Pike = Vigilante is off the table.   I'm also getting the impression Vigilante isn't going to be around long.  If he is back just for an episode it seems more  likely he is Dinah's dead boyfriend.  

29 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Coupled with Wendy's mention of math homework could it mean Felicity will be tutoring Myson? 

I'd say so.

[bijoux]

9 hours ago, Sunshine said:

Did WM also “confirm” that Felicity would be helping William with his math homework? She mentioned math homework as one of things Oliver has to deal with in adjusting to parenthood. SA said Felicity being good at math was important at one of the cons.

I actually always took that as a clue how (most) survive the island explosion. Felicity calculates where they can get quickly or how to defuse/redirect the bombs or something.

[LeighAn]

It wouldn't surprise me though if Stephen was teasing Felicity helping William with his math homework. 

[tv echo]

[Sunshine]

10 hours ago, bijoux said:

I actually always took that as a clue how (most) survive the island explosion. Felicity calculates where they can get quickly or how to defuse/redirect the bombs or something.

I did too. It might be both. WM mentioning math homework lends credence to the idea of Felicity getting to know William via tutoring.

[statsgirl]

I'd much rather have Felicity's math skills be about saving them on the island (active heroing) than tutoring William (stereotypical woman's role). Please, please, please...

Glad Anna Hopkins has a new gig.  Just hope that Samantha took William away rather than died.  Although if Thea, who was running after her, is in a coma, the odds are good that she did die.

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I guess if they are dealing with casting it means Pike = Vigilante is off the table.   I'm also getting the impression Vigilante isn't going to be around long.  If he is back just for an episode it seems more  likely he is Dinah's dead boyfriend. 

I really liked the Pike theory.

If it is Dinah's boyfriend, why did he come to Star City instead of Coast City or Central City?  Why isn't he a meta like she is?  Why did he never disclose himself to her?  Why did he try to kill Oliver?  Questions, questions, questions...

[lemotomato]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'd much rather have Felicity's math skills be about saving them on the island (active heroing) than tutoring William (stereotypical woman's role). 

Why not both? A woman teaching math is not exactly stereotypical. 

[statsgirl]

But a woman being the one to help a boy with his homework is.  Grade eight (?) math isn't that hard.

I'd be fine with Felicity doing both.  Felicity's math skills saving them on the island is way way better than Slade leading them to a safe hidey-hole.

[way2interested]

10 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity's math skills saving them on the island is way way better than Slade leading them to a safe hidey-hole.

Well, Slade doesn't lead them to anywhere given his reaction shot face in 601 and him totally abandoning them for his own shot of living, so that's already out anyway,

[lemotomato]

25 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But a woman being the one to help a boy with his homework is.  Grade eight (?) math isn't that hard.

Oliver got a D in algebra (which is 8/9th grade here in the US) so it's not like he can help his kid. 

If Oliver and Felicity are going to get married, it's not a bad idea to show her bonding with William before that happens. She's already been shown as the not-cook and the entrepreneur/bread winner in the relationship, which are atypical for a woman, so I don't mind if she does one thing that can be construed as stereotypically maternal.

Edited October 8, 2017 by lemotomato

[way2interested]

23 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

If Oliver and Felicity are going to get married, it's not a bad idea to show her bonding with William before that happens. 

Oh yeah, now that they're getting married circa 608, I'm definitely betting on at least one obligatory scene/moment for Felicity with William some time in 6a just so it can be "ok" for Olicity to be married by 608. If not a "they already met off-screen so they already know each other so we'll only have to do one moment to really level the foreshadowing for the crossover" thing, then maybe something in 603 or 605/606 or 607. This way, if they won't do something emotional like the whole broken home thing or through Oliver, at least seems pretty character consistent for Felicity (good at math, wants to help people, always dedicated to helping people important to her or important to Oliver, etc.) 

Edited October 8, 2017 by way2interested

[LeighAn]

Given that Stephen talked about how Olicitys relationship will change because Oliver is now a packaged deal with William and that William is a factor but won't break them I do think they are going to explore William and Felicity connecting and accepting one another especially given Olicitys impending marriage.

 

Id prefer it to be based on something more meaningful then math homework haha but I'll take anything at this point if it means putting the BMD aspect of William as a character to bed.

 

I can't be too mad as this is how I wanted the writers to deal with the surprise child storyline back in season 4 by seeing Oliver struggle with dealing with being a father within the context of his life as Green Arrow and seeing him and Felicity adjust with how to fit William into their lives and support each other. So I'm kind of chill about the storyline this season as I don't think it's going to be as big a part on the show as others seem to. I think the first couple of episodes will be William heavy just to establish the change his presence makes on the shows dynamics but then I'm sure he'll be just as much a background character as say Thea and Quentin  were in season 5. 

[statsgirl]

The problem with William is that Thea and Quentin were able to take care of themselves and had their own residences.   I don't think William is even allowed to be home alone while Oliver and Felicity do their night time activities.   (A friend who was head of the Children's Aid in my city said that if the child is mature, he would let a 10 year old stay alone for half an hour.)

If Samantha doesn't survive and William stays on the show permanently, maybe Raisa is going to be a fixture at the new Queen residence.  Although that's going to put a crimp into Oliver and Feliicty's sexual activites.

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The problem with William is that Thea and Quentin were able to take care of themselves and had their own residences.   I don't think William is even allowed to be home alone while Oliver and Felicity do their night time activities.   (A friend who was head of the Children's Aid in my city said that if the child is mature, he would let a 10 year old stay alone for half an hour.)

If Samantha doesn't survive and William stays on the show permanently, maybe Raisa is going to be a fixture at the new Queen residence.  Although that's going to put a crimp into Oliver and Feliicty's sexual activites.

The same argument could be made for John Jr or Sara Diggle though in how could Lilah run a government agency and Diggle work with Oliver and still be good parents? The show says their good parents and when the kids are on screen we see them be good parents and the audience generally accepts that without questioning the logistics of how Lilah and Diggle could actually be present attentive parents with their lifestyles because even if that question nags ultimately Lilah and Diggles day care or nanny arrangements is not what the show is about. 

 

I imagine William will be no different. They'll establish straight up that Raisa is an increadibly generous Nanny willing to work all sorts of hours and they will show Oliver as a good father or trying to be a good father when it suits the story. 

 

Its like wondering how if the characters work all day and fight crime all night when do they find time to eat or sleep? And if the female characters wear new outfits every single day how big is their closet? How are they all affording rent living in inner city abodes when most of them don't actually have jobs? Annoying to think about but ultimately you just try not to haha.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Not seeing Lyla on screen most times makes me think she takes care of her child..maybe because lots of parents work but arrange their working hours to be able to do both so my minds goes there. Also Dig doesn't work does he? That way he could be with his kid during the day, Lyla can be too when she comes home after work and during the night. 

If Oliver works as mayor during the day and is out during the night so the nanny raises his kid to me that isn't being a good father. Especially if that kid just lost his mom. I thought the normal thing to do would have been to take time off work for the time being and go to a therapist with him, then go back to work. But I'm sure the show will try to tell me Oliver is a great dad.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Belinea]

33 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I imagine William will be no different. They'll establish straight up that Raisa is an increadibly generous Nanny willing to work all sorts of hours and they will show Oliver as a good father or trying to be a good father when it suits the story. 

I always assumed that is why they bring her back. She will have a place in his home to raise the boy and if they (O/F/W) have family time she might conveniently be not around. 

[Mellowyellow]

Omg where are those pictures!!!!!!????

[way2interested]

22 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

But I'm sure the show will try to tell me Oliver is a great dad.

Well, the season's opening with the show saying Oliver is a bad dad (according to SA, WM, MG, plot descriptions, etc.), so luckily we don't have to worry about that yet.

[Chaser]

Do we know if Raisa is in more than one episode?

[LeighAn]

27 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

 

If Oliver works as mayor during the day and is out during the night so the nanny raises his kid to me that isn't being a good father. Especially if that kid just lost his mom. I thought the normal thing to do would have been to take time off work for the time being and go to a therapist with him, then go back to work. But I'm sure the show will try to tell me Oliver is a great dad.

Well considering that Diggle takes up the Green Arrow role isn't that exactly what they are going to have Oliver do? Give up his extra curricular activities for a spell to be there for his son?

 

Also yes what people's personal preferences or bias of what Oliver should do to be a good father may be different to what the show sells but ultimately the point of the show is fighting crime and taking down bad guys so Oliver giving up being Mayor and fighting crime forever to devote himself entirely to his child would kind of defeat the purpose of the show being on air.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

Well, the season's opening with the show saying Oliver is a bad dad (according to SA, WM, MG, plot descriptions, etc.), so luckily we don't have to worry about that yet.

From what I understood the problem they are focusing on is about Oliver being the GA and if that's the problem and Oliver gives that up the narrative is telling me he is giving something important to him up for his son and that's being a good dad. From my POV though the problem is that that kid won't go to therapy and Oliver will get a nanny instead of taking a leave from his job to stay with his son and I don't think the show will touch that.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Do we know if Raisa is in more than one episode?

No idea. But she doesn’t have to be on-screen. It would only take three words - “Raisa’s with William” - to explain. 

[LeighAn]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Do we know if Raisa is in more than one episode?

I'm not sure, but I imagine once theyve shown her on screen once they wouldn't need to show her again. They can just reference her. "Raisa will take you to school" "I've got to get home because Raisa made plans tonight" "Raisa is looking after William so we are all good to leave for that week long crime fighting expedition Barry" etc

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Well considering that Diggle takes up the Green Arrow role isn't that exactly what they are going to have Oliver do? Give up his extra curricular activities for a spell to be there for his son?

 

Also yes what people's personal preferences or bias of what Oliver should do to be a good father may be different to what the show sells but ultimately the point of the show is fighting crime and taking down bad guys so Oliver giving up being Mayor and fighting crime forever to devote himself entirely to his child would kind of defeat the purpose of the show being on air.  

Yeah..after months. It's just absurd to me that this kid was kidnapped by a psychopath, his mom died and he is just going to be dropped with a nanny during day and night for months.

I'm not saying he should give up everything forever but until that kid settles down, yes. So the show will sell something I don't buy. Not first and I imagine not last time.

[lemotomato]

Technically the show hasn't sold anything yet, since won't know how they deal with it until the episodes air.

[Mellowyellow]

I don't know about older kids but don't full time working parents only see their kids in the morning and before bed anyway?

So Oliver would be gone while Myson is at school and asleep. 

Most parents don't get the luxury of seeing their kids that much. Two hours in the morning and three or 4 before bed which I can see Oliver having that kind of time. 

They only need to be there on weekends and Raisa can be in the house while Myson is asleep.

[LeighAn]

15 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yeah..after months. It's just absurd to me that this kid was kidnapped by a psychopath, his mom died and he is just going to be dropped with a nanny during day and night for months.

I'm not saying he should give up everything forever but until that kid settles down, yes. So the show will sell something I don't buy. Not first and I imagine not last time.

I'm sure the only reason it's months later is so the writers can show the audience Oliver weighing up and coming to that decision rather then it happening off screen. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I'm sure the only reason it's months later is so the writers can show the audience Oliver weighing up and coming to that decision rather then it happening off screen. 

And their reasons don't change the narrative one bit.

[way2interested]

40 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

From what I understood the problem they are focusing on is about Oliver being the GA and if that's the problem and Oliver gives that up the narrative is telling me he is giving something important to him up for his son and that's being a good dad. 

Idk if that's the problem. Obviously Oliver doesn't give up being the GA fully since he's in the costume in 602 and 605, and idk if the narrative will say that's a good thing (heck, it might just be he's doing it to get the FBI off of his track more than doing it for his kid). From 603's plot description it sounds like he's still hasn't reached "good dad" status, so it sounds like it's something that they'll be focusing on rather than abruptly just saying he's doing a good job after one thing.

45 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

 From my POV though the problem is that that kid won't go to therapy and Oliver will get a nanny instead of taking a leave from his job to stay with his son and I don't think the show will touch that.

And then from my pov I don't think that's the problem (I'm thinking it's more of Oliver and the kid haven't bonded/talked about anything and that Oliver's more focused on stability over emotions because that's who Oliver is, and it comes to a crux in 601 and that's where we head from there), so I guess it's just an impasse of spec.

[Midnight Lullaby]

18 minutes ago, way2interested said:

 

And then from my pov I don't think that's the problem (I'm thinking it's more of Oliver and the kid haven't bonded/talked about anything and that Oliver's more focused on stability over emotions because that's who Oliver is, and it comes to a crux in 601 and that's where we head from there), so I guess it's just an impasse of spec.

I don't think you understood me..I wasn't speculating that the problem between Oliver and William will be that William won't go to a therapist and Oliver will leave him with the nanny..I said I don't expect the show to focus on this. I meant that it's a thing that when I look at the situation comes to mind instantly. I wouldn't judge Oliver badly as a dad for being unable to bond with William initially..a person does what he can. I don't understand how the first thing when you have home a child that is your responsibility, has just been through a traumatic event and you don't know isn't focusing on being with him and getting him the help he needs.  The job(s) will still be there. I don't think the show will focus on that because I think all the characters need therapy at this point but they haven't made a SL out of that yet. It doesn't change my opinion if the show makes or doesn't make it an issue. There are times the narrative tells me something is fine and I don't agree with that.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I don't think the show will focus on that because I think all the characters need therapy at this point but they haven't made a SL out of that yet. It doesn't change my opinion if the show makes or doesn't make it an issue. There are times the narrative tells me something is fine and I don't agree with that.

Then I don't understand the problem? They're not going to do something they haven't done before and that's bad specifically right now based on something that hasn't aired yet? And that it doesn't change your opinion but it just still needs to be said?

Edited October 8, 2017 by way2interested

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Then I don't understand the problem? They're not going to do something they haven't done before and that's bad specifically right now based on something that hasn't aired yet? And that it doesn't change your opinion but it just still needs to be said?

I commented about the difference between the situations of the Diggles and Oliver. I thought I was allowed to share an opinion.

[way2interested]

Just now, Midnight Lullaby said:

I commented about the difference between the situations of the Diggles and Oliver. I thought I was allowed to share an opinion.

Tapping out, not going to get into this if this is where it's going. Sorry for bothering you.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yeah..after months. It's just absurd to me that this kid was kidnapped by a psychopath, his mom died and he is just going to be dropped with a nanny during day and night for months.

I'm not saying he should give up everything forever but until that kid settles down, yes. So the show will sell something I don't buy. Not first and I imagine not last time.

I've been assuming there will be a time jump that might account for us not seeing everything that happens between Oliver and William. Maybe we'll find out Oliver did put heroing on the back burner until he felt William was okay enough after like 6 months to get back to Mayoring and Heroing.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 

I really liked the Pike theory.

If it is Dinah's boyfriend, why did he come to Star City instead of Coast City or Central City?  Why isn't he a meta like she is?  Why did he never disclose himself to her?  Why did he try to kill Oliver?  Questions, questions, questions...

 

Maybe Vigilante's meta power is healing.  We saw him obliterated but if he's alive, then that alone would be his power so maybe he's like Deadpool, just keeps going,  but otherwise, has no overt special powers.  

4 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Its like wondering how if the characters work all day and fight crime all night when do they find time to eat or sleep? And if the female characters wear new outfits every single day how big is their closet? How are they all affording rent living in inner city abodes when most of them don't actually have jobs? Annoying to think about but ultimately you just try not to haha.

 

I have a new possible theory.  At this point Felicity has the mega bucks to support her habit of rarely repeating an outfit, but back in season two she could have just been a part of one of those clothes rental club things where you pay a flat monthly fee and then have nearly unlimited access to new outfits that you wear and then send back with the option of buying and keeping your favorites.  That way she'd have a constant flow of new looks and we could finally understand how she could afford them and then also why she didn't have an entire wing in the bunker devoted to storing them later.  

[BunsenBurner]

This is ridiculous but what if the Vigilante is another rich dude like Max Fuller or Carter Bowen?

[Chaser]

It should totally be Carter Bowen! LOL

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

This is ridiculous but what if the Vigilante is another rich dude like Max Fuller or Carter Bowen?

I'm down for it being Max Fuller because I like that actor.

[leopardprint]

Raisa is Vigilante, obviously. 

[Chaser]

A Max Fuller/Carter Bowen run in with Feliciy is fan fic come to life.

[BkWurm1]

How old would Andy Jr be these days?  Wonder when he'll be old enough to turn evil since Uncle Diggle dropped out of his life. 

[statsgirl]

5 hours ago, LeighAn said:

The same argument could be made for John Jr or Sara Diggle though in how could Lilah run a government agency and Diggle work with Oliver and still be good parents?

Lyla has a couple of ARGUS nannies (from 3x05 The Secret Origin of Felicity Smoke).  And Diggle works on Team Arrow at night when Lyla can be with the child.  Oliver has a day job as mayor and a night job as the Green Arrow.  He can put in "quality time" with William but he's still going to need live-in childcare for when he suddenly has to go out to save the city.

It's also easier to put a toddler with nannies than a traumatized 10 year boy. 

Oliver's going to need a really big apartment for him, Felicity, William and Raisa/other caregiver.

5 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yeah..after months. It's just absurd to me that this kid was kidnapped by a psychopath, his mom died and he is just going to be dropped with a nanny during day and night for months.

I'm not saying he should give up everything forever but until that kid settles down, yes. So the show will sell something I don't buy. Not first and I imagine not last time.

I'm guessing that's why Oliver decides to step down from being the Green Arrow and let Diggle take the mantle for a while.

Maybe that's when Diggle's damage from the island shows up.

30 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

How old would Andy Jr be these days?  Wonder when he'll be old enough to turn evil since Uncle Diggle dropped out of his life. 

I think he was about 6 - 8 years old.  That would make him 12 - 14, too young to be an effective evil.

I do like the idea of Felicity belonging to a clothes rental club.  She would have had to get a lot of clothes quickly when she moved from the cubicle to the CEO's office.

[insomniadreams88]

46 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

How old would Andy Jr be these days?  Wonder when he'll be old enough to turn evil since Uncle Diggle dropped out of his life. 

Something tells me he'll never be mentioned again. Ever. (Hey, if I'm wrong, congrats, show, for surprising me.)

9 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm guessing that's why Oliver decides to step down from being the Green Arrow and let Diggle take the mantle for a while.

I'm really trying to hold off on judging this storyline since a lot about it is just speculation at this point, but I will admit that this is one of the things I'm most worried about for this season - the reasoning behind Diggle being GA and how it's presented on-screen. It's one thing if it's Diggle's decision 100%. It's another if any part of it seems like Oliver going, "Well, I have a son now and you ... uh... well, you can be Green Arrow because William needs me." I'm going to try to give the show the benefit of the doubt since we have no idea how this will play out yet, but I'd be lying if I said I'm not worried.

[way2interested]

I'm just confused when Diggle's GA and whether it's just sharing it rather than Oliver actually stepping away. If the promo is him asking Diggle to be the GA, then idk why Oliver's in the suit facing Anatoly in 602, or why he's wearing the outfit in 605. 

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I'm just confused when Diggle's GA and whether it's just sharing it rather than Oliver actually stepping away. If the promo is him asking Diggle to be the GA, then idk why Oliver's in the suit facing Anatoly in 602, or why he's wearing the outfit in 605. 

True. Unless Oliver takes a break at the end of 602 and that's when that clip is from? But then something happens by 604/605 - maybe Oliver realizes what's going on with Diggle, something he's missed since he's been trying to balance everything/be a father to William? - and he suits up again?

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

True. Unless Oliver takes a break at the end of 602 and that's when that clip is from? But then something happens by 604/605 - maybe Oliver realizes what's going on with Diggle, something he's missed since he's been trying to balance everything/be a father to William? - and he suits up again?

I could buy that the clip is actually from 602. Although, now I'm partially wondering if 604 is also a Diggle/Oliver episode what with the title "reversal" and DR and SA talking about the role reversal aspect of the relationship. Maybe they agree to let Diggle share the mantle at the end of 601/602, issues come up in 603, and then they confront them in 604 right before the Slade stuff? Idk.

[Starfish35]

I'm curious- with the season premiere this week, has anyone asked the mods whether there will be a season six live posting thread?

[Velocity23]

'Arrow' EP Marc Guggenheim On What's Next For Thea

Quote

Whether or not Thea Queen survives the explosion on Lian Yu, actress Willa Holland will be back on Arrow this season. Showrunner Marc Guggenheim, though, hints that some of her episodes could be in flashback.

Thea's absence in the second half of Arrow's fifth season was noted by many fans, but Guggenheim told ComicBook.com that it was the byproduct of Holland's own request to scale back her time on set. While the explosion at the end of season 5 might seem like the ideal way to get rid of an actor who doesn't want to be onscreen all the time, Guggenheim has said in the past that he doesn't imagine that Thea will die on his watch, since Oliver has already lost both parents.

"We love Willa, we love Thea the character and we particularly love Thea's relationship with Oliver," Guggenheim told ComicBook.com. "That said, Willa came to us at the end of season four and she, very honestly, expressed a desire to cut back how many episodes a season she was doing. She's a member of our family, and we wanted to honor that request. That's what happens when you have a show that goes over a hundred episodes, people start to say, 'hey, I would like to pull back,' some people don't want to renew their contract. There's a whole host of different things that start to come into play and you work that into the story telling."

So what's next for the character?

"All I'll say really, and you can interpret this however you want, is Willa is back on the show and we are doing flashbacks from people's perspective that does not always include Oliver's," Guggenheim said. "I'll let you extrapolate from that what you will."

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/08/arrow-ep-marc-guggenheim-on-whats-next-for-thea/

 

Makes me think Willa is out after season 6. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Velocity23

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

'Arrow' EP Marc Guggenheim On What's Next For Thea

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/10/08/arrow-ep-marc-guggenheim-on-whats-next-for-thea/

 

Makes me think Willa is out after season 6. 

It definitely gives legs to the theory about Thea leaving with Roy.

[statsgirl]

So Roy comes back early in the season to give Thea food for thought, and then returns at the end, or doesn't return and Thea leaves to be with him?

It gives her a happy ending at last, after misery since she was 12, and solves the problem of Oliver not losing his last remaining relative.