Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Hiveminder]

Maybe they've just decided to not care about spoilers anymore. (SA and JB, at least.) I mean, actually keeping any show completely unspoiled is pretty futile these days. 

[Velocity23]

Was Barrowman ever actually careful with spoilers?

[statsgirl]

I think that if they spoil it's Malcolm's death episode, that might entice dithering viewers to tune in. Just as long as he doesn't die saving William.

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

For me that problem wasn't the first five episodes.  Like you said, a lot of time had passed and they needed to be able to get along and work together and in those first five episodes where Oliver was hoping something might still happen, he acted the way I'd expect and Felicity made her comment about them not having "that kind of relationship anymore" to explain any of her behavior.  

But after 505 pretty much until 510, they were written as if they'd never been in a relationship and mostly were NOT friends.  Not partners.  Co workers yes, but Oliver was so distant,  from the whole team really, at least until it was time for him to apologize to someone that week.   

And it was the way the show skipped moments that SHOULD have been there.  Like the team teasing Oliver about his date. (Or the fact that he was dropping everything to go to a date) 

Felicity was right there.  She could have been completely fine about it, but we should have been allowed to see HOW she felt and instead the camera avoided her as if she wasn't even there in the room.  It was super awkward and made no sense.  And skipping her reaction just called attention back to the fact that we weren't getting normal behavior.  Which brings up Susan.

We saw Oliver turning to Susan because he wanted someone to confide in, but SHE made even less sense.  Perhaps if they'd let him develop a friendship with someone beside a shady reporter trying to expose him, then I wouldn't have taken a fine tooth comb to nit pick all of his behavior and choices, which then prompted me to do the same with Felicity.  And they came out lacking. 

In the Arrow part of the crossover, there was a big disconnect in how the team not snatched up by the aliens reacted and how any normal person would.  Felicity probably had the least worst reaction, she herself wasn't laughing or joking at least but she wasn't expressing a deep concern either.  There was a real lack of urgency or seriousness that I would have expected.

 I felt like for most of the episodes after 505 that both Oliver and Felicity seemed flat and going through the motions. For Felicity it was a feeling of forced cheerfulness at times.  For Oliver it was a vacant, weary look.  Maybe it was acting choices or maybe it was in the script but Oliver especially came off depressed to me but the show still hasn't confirmed that he was even behaving oddly.  All we had was Chase commenting it looked like he wasn't sleeping well.  But that's it.  No in show explanation to confirm it.  

It was sad, I actually welcomed that shot of Felicity crying alone in 509 because at least it was some real emotion (even if I was annoyed that she didn't get the comfort or support she should have.)  And 510 when both of them FINALLY expressed concern for one another left me wildly happy, because it was how I thought they SHOULD be acting.  And that really stood out.  And NORMAL should not stand out, lol.  

It's been a lot better in the back half of the season, enough so that some of the bad memories and their details are fading, but I stand by my earlier assessment, that Oliver and Felicity were not acting like normal human beings would act around each other.  

I agree.  I thought everything from 505 to 509 was weird, as was 511 - 517.  Even in Bratva, Oliver was concerned about Felicity only when Rory pointed it out, and then assumed it was taken care of with one speech and while Oliver checked with Diggle that was okay, he didn't with Felicity.

I can accept the argument that Oliver felt he couldn't go to Felicity in 5x09 after he had killed Billy, but there was nothing from Oliver to Felicity in any of the subsequent episodes. She's just lost her boyfriend, why was he treating it like she had a flat tire?  There was also the ridiculousness that Oliver went to Susan to talk when he needed to decompress.  If they weren't deliberately writing him and Felicity as unnaturally distant, why didn't he talk to her?  She understood far better than Susan could.

[leopardprint]

40 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

She's just lost her boyfriend, why was he treating it like she had a flat tire? 

I'd go a step further than that, everyone treated it like it was some great tragedy that happened to Oliver, (until forgotten about in subsequent episodes) Felicity was like not even their tertiary concern let alone poor Billy. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by leopardprint

[way2interested]

53 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think that if they spoil it's Malcolm's death episode, that might entice dithering viewers to tune in. Just as long as he doesn't die saving William.

Ken basically implied that he dies saving Thea, but now I'm wondering if William's even there at all. I know Ken assumed he'd be in the episode since Samantha was there, but he didn't even know she was there until later, so at this point there hasn't even been confirmation yet that he's in it. Not saying he won't be, but idk I'm taking a wait and see hopeful approach since I'm looking forward to nearly everything that's happening in these last 4 episodes, ha.

[Morrigan2575]

I.could have sworn I read a tweet from KenP where he mentioned that someone (not him) saw William on location.

Will have to see if I can find it again.

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I.could have sworn I read a tweet from KenP where he mentioned that someone (not him) saw William on location.

Will have to see if I can find it again.

I don't follow him, so if you remember reading it and he was there, then my bad. Although, tbh, I'm not especially concerned either way, so no rush or pressure to find it. 

[Morrigan2575]

22 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I don't follow him, so if you remember reading it and he was there, then my bad. Although, tbh, I'm not especially concerned either way, so no rush or pressure to find it. 

I'm trying to find it. I remember him answering a question and I could have sworn he said something about being told the kid was there.  Of course with the way twitter work he could have been talking about something else entirely. ?

[way2interested]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm trying to find it. I remember him answering a question and I could have sworn he said something about being told the kid was there.  Of course with the way twitter work he could have been talking about something else entirely. ?

Oh, definitely, Twitter, you a mess.

I was thinking of this remark:

And

Since he was referencing finding out that AH was there, but he also had this one:

Which made me remember SA's comment about wanting to see the kid again and the kid finding out that Oliver was the GA which I randomly forgot, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that's on me.

[leopardprint]

May I cling to the feeble hope that the one smart thing Oliver does this season is secure this kid so we don't have to see him? 

[BkWurm1]

They can set up a superhero daycare at Argus for William, Zoe and notSara.  Problems solved?

[way2interested]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

They can set up a superhero daycare at Argus for William, Zoe and notSara.  Problems solved?

And for future children *ah-wink*. I mean, this would pretty much be an investment at this point.

[insomniadreams88]

You know, I always wonder where killers draw the line. For example, Chase killed his wife but would he hurt a child? Would he risk a child's life on an island with a bunch of villains? Would he think about that risk?

[BkWurm1]

Would he see William as a child or just a means to an end?

[tv echo]

MG's response to news article about John Barrowman not being part of DC universe next season...

They could kill Malcolm in 523 and still have JB return as Malcolm next season due to flashbacks, time travel, alternate earths, etc. Here's what MG said recently about when they killed off Laurel:

MG: "Um, you know, I mean, it's funny like, when we killed off Katie Cassidy's character, Laurel, uh, last year, and - I will say, the hardest part of killing off a character is, you are basically firing someone from their job. So - forget about the fans for a second - the hardest thing, bar none, is having that conversation. Um, and actually, it's funny, when we had that conversation with Katie, we said, you know, first of all, the show does flashbacks, it's a big universe, there's time travel, there's all kinds of realities - and, Katie's coming back as a series regular in Season 6. Um, we weren't shining her on when we had that conversation a year ago. It turned - it was true. Um, you know, not every show obviously can do that." (Apr. 1, 2017 IndieWire's Fan Favorites Showrunners panel at WonderCon at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjG--uETjFw )

Edited May 1, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Here are all of the William spoilers that I have...

Quote

-- Fan reporting from SA's HVFF panel: "i think william is coming back in finale. he said william will find out oliver is his dead [sic] sooner than later." (HVFF-Chicago, Mar. 25, 2017: amellxwood tweet, page 56 of Spoilers thread)
-- Fan reporting from SA's HVFF panel: "Baby black canary asked if William will find out Oliver is his dad: SA: I'd bet money on that happening ." (HVFF-Chicago, Mar. 25, 2017: jbuffyangel tweet, page 56 of Spoilers thread)
-- Fan reporting from SA's HVFF panel: "Stephen said William will find out on the show he's Green Arrow - you can bet on it." (HVFF-Chicago, Mar. 25, 2017: MyFutureQueen tweet, page 1442 of Spoiler Discussion thread)
-- Fan reporting from SA's HVFF panel: "'if I were a betting man I'd put money on that happening sooner or later' in reference to William finding out he's the green arrow." (HVFF-Chicago, Mar. 25, 2017: rhodesmoak tweet, page 56 of Spoilers thread)

Quote

-- On Apr. 18, 2017, papp tweeted: "Told certain someone was at #Arrow ravine set & my initial response wtf why was she there. But now Im pretty sure ?????? in finale storyline" and " and "[he was told by] Someone that was at set" and "Well with the baby mama being on the island for the big Finale I'm gonna guess & say that the kid was taken by Prometheus. Thats my guess." When fan guessed Anna Hopkins, papp tweeted a 'thumbs up' emoji. Papp also said that he had not yet heard or seen Jack Moore (who played William) on the Arrow set for 523, but tweeted: "Nope but its not like he's needed until a showdown if he was kidnapped." (pursuit23 tweets, page 58 of Spoilers thread)

Edited May 1, 2017 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

Ok I've been obsessing about this. 

That smitten looking pic that SA posted has Felicity wearing the same top as the cosy clinch. But her hair is all out during the clinch. Do you think he's going to pull her ponytail out or are they going to magically cut to the cosy clinch and her hair will be out?

Or is she wearing the same top on different days. Cuz the cosy clinch hair looks styled. 

Yes these are the important issues which plague me at night. 

[DeadZeus]

I don't really want Malcolm to die a hero.. He has proven time and time again that he is a pure villain... His appearences in LoT this season confirms this also... Just cuz he sorta cares about his daughter doesn't make it worth to write him off as a hero... He needs to die like the character he is.. a villain... IMO! It would personally be way more satisfying to me that he finally bites the dust because of his morally evil actions over the years.

[tv echo]

I just posted video of JBarrowman at Planet Comicon in the New Spoilers thread, where he says that he "will not be part of the DC universe next season" (twice) and that he's "looking for another job." Yep, he outright spoiled Malcolm's death. He also didn't sound happy about it and told the audience that they could get on twitter when the episode airs.

Edited May 1, 2017 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think SA was smart to spoil Felicity's BF, because by the time the premiere aired and I saw Detective Tiny Hands in the loft, I wasn't as mad anymore. I had time to brace for it. 

[JJ928]

Ugh. That was such a dick move. Talk about a show that has  contorted itself to keep MM around, way past his expiration, and JB spoils this? He sounds salty and seems spiteful. Whatever, I'll be cheering when he dies.

[apinknightmare]

Unfortunately for him I'll be on Twitter complaining that they waited two years too long to off Malcolm. 

[Chaser]

I'm happy for Arrow and me, but I am bummed for JB because he seems to truly love the universe.

I do wonder how it went down though, if it totally surprised him or not. They added three regulars so cutting him lose makes sense.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, DeadZeus said:

I don't really want Malcolm to die a hero.. He has proven time and time again that he is a pure villain... His appearences in LoT this season confirms this also... Just cuz he sorta cares about his daughter doesn't make it worth to write him off as a hero... He needs to die like the character he is.. a villain... IMO! It would personally be way more satisfying to me that he finally bites the dust because of his morally evil actions over the years.

I completely agree with you but, the writers/EPs have a soft spot for Barrowman so I fully expect a dramatic semi-heroic death.

[Belinea]

1 hour ago, JJ928 said:

He sounds salty and seems spiteful. Whatever, I'll be cheering when he dies.

 Maybe he didn't want them to kill him off and they did. Maybe he had ideas on how to use him further and they realised that it was finally time to let go off his character.

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, Belinea said:

 Maybe he didn't want them to kill him off and they did. Maybe he had ideas on how to use him further and they realised that it was finally time to let go off his character.

Or, given that it's Hollywood, he wanted a firm contract with pay raise and Berlanti wanted to keep him to that 3 show deal with limited episode count.

It usually comes down to money or BTS drama or both.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

It seems like JB is only saying he won't be around for s6.  And that might be true. That doesn't preclude him from coming back for  final bow in S7 if there is a S7. I  seem  to remember him saying practically the same thing after season one; that he would not be part of Arrow in s2 after Malcolm supposedly died in s1, and VOILA Malcolm is there to keep Moira out of jail by tampering with the jury.

I'll believe Malcolm is going to die when I see it. IMO, JB is not going to spoil Malcolm's actual final death IMO other than  to boost ratings for the long awaited death of Malcolm.

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Primal Slayer]

It is no surprise that JB would be against killing off MM, he's put A LOT of time into the character. But they killed off Laurel so it shouldn't be a complete shock. But there is always E_____ for him to come back which im sure they'll do at some point if he does die.

[Sunshine]

Yeah, IIRC, JB & his husband Scott persuaded the EPs to make Malcolm Thea's father thinking there's no way Oliver would kill him.  The original plan was for him to be Oliver's biological father.  Maybe he thought he was safe.

I'm more inclined to go along with the BTS & contracts theory.  

[BkWurm1]

One thing I need to nitpick.  In the dream world the Malcolm "died" in, it wasn't really Malcolm.  Only Barry and Kara were really there.  Dream Iris and Dream Mon-el or at least their look alike were there and the real Iris and Mon-el had to come get Barry and Kara. The die in here, die out there rule only applied to them.  

As for spoiling Malcolm's death, oh well. Not like we hadn't guessed it already. Plus I like Barrowman more than I'm ever going to like MG and company so I'm going to side with him if only out of loyalty and or spite.  :D

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

One thing I need to nitpick.  In the dream world the Malcolm "died" in, it wasn't really Malcolm.  Only Barry and Kara were really there.  Dream Iris and Dream Mon-el or at least their look alike were there and the real Iris and Mon-el had to come get Barry and Kara. The die in here, die out there rule only applied to them.  

As for spoiling Malcolm's death, oh well. Not like we hadn't guessed it already. Plus I like Barrowman more than I'm ever going to like MG and company so I'm going to side with him if only out of loyalty and or spite.  :D

I think he was using that as a hint not an In Show reasoning for why Malcolm will die in 523.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think he was using that as a hint not an In Show reasoning for why Malcolm will die in 523.

JB's intent probably came across better with tone than just reading the transcript, lol. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, Sunshine said:

Yeah, IIRC, JB & his husband Scott persuaded the EPs to make Malcolm Thea's father thinking there's no way Oliver would kill him.  The original plan was for him to be Oliver's biological father.  Maybe he thought he was safe.

I'm more inclined to go along with the BTS & contracts theory.  

Ever since I first heard that, I've always kind of wandered what the show would have been like if they'd stuck with Oliver being his son. I think I might have liked it better just because I can't imagine Oliver being all 'Robert who? Malcolm's my daddy!'  

(Maybe that's not a totally accurate description of Thea's reaction to being Malcolm's daughter, but it's not far off.)

[statsgirl]

I think it would severely have messed up Oliver taking on Robert's burden though, ir Malcolm the guy who created The List, is Oliver real father. I really prefer him being Thea's father.

JB has always been very complimentary about the fans and the other actors as well as great at cons so my sympathies are with him even if it is time for Malcolm to go.

17 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

You know, I always wonder where killers draw the line. For example, Chase killed his wife but would he hurt a child? Would he risk a child's life on an island with a bunch of villains? Would he think about that risk?

Chase killed the wife he presumably loved as well as completely random strangers who just happened to have significant names, so yeah, he would be perfectly willing to kill a child, especially Oliver's child, to make his point.

[tv echo]

Last 520 spoiler that MG gave to jbuffyangel is a dialogue tease...

10. “I think those two are gonna make the cutest couple one day.”

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Last 520 spoiler that MG gave to jbuffyangel is a dialogue tease...

10. “I think those two are gonna make the cutest couple one day.”

My guess is it's newbies-related.

[Belinea]

Wild Dog and Curtis :-) ;-)

[Morrigan2575]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I  seem  to remember him saying practically the same thing after season one; that he would not be part of Arrow in s2 after Malcolm supposedly died in s1, and VOILA Malcolm is there to keep Moira out of jail by tampering with the jury.

 

They brought Barrowman to SDCC 2013 as the surprise panel guest and, he talked about how there's always ways for Malcolm to come back.

I don't really recall Barrowman saying he was never coming back after S1. Unless it was in the immediate aftermath of S1 finale.  However, i do recall Barrowman and EPs talking about Malcolm coming back in some form (flashbacks, etc) in S2

[bijoux]

12 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

My guess is it's newbies-related.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Belinea said:

Wild Dog and Curtis :-) ;-)

I'm thinking Dinah about Curtis and WD.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't really recall Barrowman saying he was never coming back after S1. Unless it was in the immediate aftermath of S1 finale.  However, i do recall Barrowman and EPs talking about Malcolm coming back in some form (flashbacks, etc) in S2

I'd have to dig around but it comes to mind that it didn't come out until AFTER Malcolm came back in s2 that it was always the plan to bring him back. Who knows what the truth really is LOL

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I'd have to dig around but it comes to mind that it didn't come out until AFTER Malcolm came back in s2 that it was always the plan to bring him back. Who knows what the truth really is LOL

Watching this now, it's sadly obvious that Merlyn was coming back alive in S2 and they all knew. Hell, Barrowman and AJK all but gave it away. 

Not sure how I didn't pick that up at the time.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Watching this now, it's sadly obvious that Merlyn was coming back alive in S2 and they all knew. Hell, Barrowman and AJK all but gave it away. 

Not sure how I didn't pick that up at the time.

I never watched this panel. I was thinking about other  interviews where he kept saying he wasn't going to be in s2.

I'm just saying, for me, I'll believe it when I see Malcolm's not-Lazurus-Pitted-non-time-traveled-non-ALL-the-Earths-really -most -sincerely-cold-dead-obliterated-out-of-all-existence-body.

[LeighAn]

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Or, given that it's Hollywood, he wanted a firm contract with pay raise and Berlanti wanted to keep him to that 3 show deal with limited episode count.

It usually comes down to money or BTS drama or both.

Marcs "It's up to him whether he wants to come back" makes me think it comes down to money. 

[BkWurm1]

12 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Marcs "It's up to him whether he wants to come back" makes me think it comes down to money. 

JB also came up with an elaborate backstory for Malcolm that they put in his comic and I know he mentioned hoping to see some of that story tie in to the show so maybe they have had a difference in creative visions as well.   If all they want to do is have him pop up once and awhile and be a sort of evil Fairy Godfather to Oliver, then I can see JB getting bored with that, but I also can see the show wanting to bring in new big bads, not expand on the history of a former one.  So I can understand if they wanted different things for the character.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

About the dialogue tease, my first guess was that the speaker was jokingly referring to Curtis and Wild Dog, too. But then aren't all the teases supposed to be Olicity related? Or am I remembering that wrong? 

[Primal Slayer]

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Marcs "It's up to him whether he wants to come back" makes me think it comes down to money. 

I doubt it came down to money, they've gone 5 years dealing with him, suddenly wanting more money would be weird for JB. He was probably pissed to get downgraded this year though. But I do think the writers just wanted another death and this will give Thea "so many storylines" to deal with. 

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I think it would severely have messed up Oliver taking on Robert's burden though, ir Malcolm the guy who created The List, is Oliver real father. I really prefer him being Thea's father.

Would it though? Robert still would've been Olivers father who raised him and the only father he'd ever known. 

[statsgirl]

It would have been Oliver's father who raised him vs Oliver's father who donated the sperm.  I think it's too messy and lessens the imperative to knock people off The List.  It's also weird that Moira's eldest child is the result of an affair.  It makes more sense that her second child is after she's been hurt by Robert's heating.

It also plays in to Oliver's attachment to Thea that he wants to spare Malcolm for her.  To me, it's just a better story.

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Would it though? Robert still would've been Olivers father who raised him and the only father he'd ever known. 

Obviously there would have been mucho melodrama, but I feel like Oliver would have rejected Malcolm hard and been much less inclined to protect him for his own sake than he was for Thea's. Plus, he wouldn't have run off with Malcolm to be drugged into killing someone. 

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Obviously there would have been mucho melodrama, but I feel like Oliver would have rejected Malcolm hard and been much less inclined to protect him for his own sake than he was for Thea's. Plus, he wouldn't have run off with Malcolm to be drugged into killing someone. 

Of course the overall storyline would've changed drastically but imo wouldn't have changed the impact of Robert on Oliver to do the list.

[BkWurm1]

35 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Of course the overall storyline would've changed drastically but imo wouldn't have changed the impact of Robert on Oliver to do the list.

Perhaps, but I think the show made the right choice.