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Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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JJ928

JJ928

What if the person behind Helix is Damien Darhk? Felicity would be shocked and upset at helping him in any way. Perhaps, flashpoint/LOT have changed things enough that he's alive. He could also be who Oliver teams up with to take down Chase. DD killed Laurel, so Oliver teaming up with him would probably be more shocking than any other villain, with the exception of Slade. I'm probably wrong, but it would be a big shock/twist to discover DD is alive and still pulling strings.

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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Sunshine

Sunshine

I wonder if we'll see Nyssa in 5.22-5.23.  Ken (pursuit23) said someone besides JB had shown up to shoot yesterday.  He hasn't said who and has said no to all those guessed.  I haven't seen Nyssa suggested.  Katrina Law cancelled Steel City Comic Con this weekend because she was on location shooting.  Training Day finished shooting in December.  She could be shooting something else but Prometheus was trained by Talia.  Talia has her own students, etc.  Who better to defeat LOA trained fighters than LOA fighters?  It might make sense if Oliver using everyone in his arsenal includes his "wife".  SA said he would be fighting beside a LOA member.  We assumed MM but Nyssa might make sense.  It might also explain why they've been discussing Nyssa releasing Oliver from his vows/marriage.  He acted on her behalf with Malcolm in S4.  She helps in S5 and they call it even/quits. (Malcolm & Nyssa fighting on the same side would certainly be a strange alliance.) 

KL's show is unlikely to be renewed.  Even if the lead hadn't died the ratings weren't very good and the final eps are being aired on Saturday.  It might give them an opportunity to bring her back in S6 as one of BS's cohorts assuming BS & Artemis betray Prometheus in the finale.  By forming an alliance with Oliver, BS & Artemis would get out from under Prometheus' control.  Assuming they both live, they'll be around to cause havoc in S6 for Oliver & Company.  BS seems to be all about strutting and screaming.  Nyssa could be a believable fight teacher.       

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

1 hour ago, JJ928 said:

What if the person behind Helix is Damien Darhk? Felicity would be shocked and upset at helping him in any way. Perhaps, flashpoint/LOT have changed things enough that he's alive. He could also be who Oliver teams up with to take down Chase. DD killed Laurel, so Oliver teaming up with him would probably be more shocking than any other villain, with the exception of Slade. I'm probably wrong, but it would be a big shock/twist to discover DD is alive and still pulling strings.

No, that's unlikely.  Spoiler for how LoT ends:  (Just in case someone wants to be surprised)

Spoiler

DD was returned to his timeline with his memory wiped of anything that happened with the Legends and Eobard.  Sara returned him knowing that everything that had happened would happen again.  So DD is dead dead.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

2 hours ago, TwistedandBored said:

I have a feeling the person running Helix could be Kovar. They seem like they don't want to let Dolph Lundgren go. 

If he lives through the flashbacks, maybe.  There's always Malcolm.  He's seen first hand what an asset Felicity is for Oliver.  Maybe he decided to take that inspiration and multiply it exponentially.  It even fits with his twisted version of doing good.  He wouldn't have the skills himself, but he could have found those he could lure in with his mixed vision. 

Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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Someone suggested it and I think they're right. The mystery actor the Paps are excited about (that was filming for 522 with Barrowman) is Dolph/Kovar.  I also wonder if Kovar is the surprise person Oliver works with to stop Prometheus?

Although, there better be a huge army on that island because if Oliver needs all those people just to stop Artemis, BS and Prometheus I'm going to side eye Oliver's skill level.

Buzzyspirit

Buzzyspirit

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lyla strikes me as too by the book to be running Helix.  I feel like the plan at least originally was for Noah, Felicity's dad to have founded it, but we've been told he's not coming back this year, right?  Would they still have him as the head but not let him actually be in the episode??

I think Lyla/Argus knew about Helix and probably knew about Felicity working with them before 519. And maybe that's why Lyla and John are having issues in 520. I still think it may be Slade's son the head of Helix. It would connect with Prometeus  in a "surprising" (WM words) way specially if Deadstroke is joining Promy in the island. And Slade has a promise to keep regarding that girl with glasses... And he always keeps his promises.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

Would Lyla support Felicity working with Helix or oppose it?  Her own organization is pretty shady too.  It's like Helix could be a sister organization of Argus but on the other side of the government line.

I like the idea of Slade's son at Lian Yu because it would fit into the fathers & sons theme but wouldn't he be too young to head Helix? Slade told Oliver about him 8 or 9 years ago plus Slade's time without Oliver on Lian Yu so maybe at most mid 20s?

What if Talia set up Helix?  She's the tech savvy al Ghul, she plans far ahead and Lexa Doig said she's the kind of person who would get other people to do her dirty work if they're willing. She could have set up Helix for the long game and then brought Felicity into it when she decided to go after Oliver for killing her father.

Edited by statsgirl
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Buzzyspirit

Buzzyspirit

(edited)
2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Would Lyla support Felicity working with Helix or oppose it?  Her own organization is pretty shady too.  It's like Helix could be a sister organization of Argus but on the other side of the government line.

I like the idea of Slade's son at Lian Yu because it would fit into the fathers & sons theme but wouldn't he be too young to head Helix? Slade told Oliver about him 8 or 9 years ago plus Slade's time without Oliver on Lian Yu so maybe at most mid 20s?

What if Talia set up Helix?  She's the tech savvy al Ghul, she plans far ahead and Lexa Doig said she's the kind of person who would get other people to do her dirty work if they're willing. She could have set up Helix for the long game and then brought Felicity into it when she decided to go after Oliver for killing her father.

I got the impression that Helix works for those that are willing to pay, regardless if they are good or bad. 

I can see Argus using Helix to get information. But I imagine Lyla/Argus would be eager to find a way to control them as soon as possible. Would it be too harsh of Lyla to consider Felicity a way to reach that?

Edited by Buzzyspirit
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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

I was thinking about Oliver's birthday party (that's spoiler, not spec, right?) If they are celebrating, then it probably means they capture Adrian by 521-522? What if he gets sent to Lian Yu by ARGUS, but it's still all part of his plan? BS and Artemis break him out. Death Stroke and Boomerang join him. One wrinkle in this scenario is how the team gets to Lian Yu, if we're thinking they were kidnapped. 

Hiveminder

Hiveminder

40 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I was thinking about Oliver's birthday party (that's spoiler, not spec, right?) If they are celebrating, then it probably means they capture Adrian by 521-522? What if he gets sent to Lian Yu by ARGUS, but it's still all part of his plan? BS and Artemis break him out. Death Stroke and Boomerang join him. One wrinkle in this scenario is how the team gets to Lian Yu, if we're thinking they were kidnapped. 

Maybe Talia gets them there?

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way2interested

way2interested

30 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I was thinking about Oliver's birthday party (that's spoiler, not spec, right?) If they are celebrating, then it probably means they capture Adrian by 521-522? What if he gets sent to Lian Yu by ARGUS, but it's still all part of his plan? BS and Artemis break him out. Death Stroke and Boomerang join him. One wrinkle in this scenario is how the team gets to Lian Yu, if we're thinking they were kidnapped. 

Yeah, WM and SA confirmed that he has a birthday party, and I think MG actually said that it's in 522.

I was thinking that might happen as well. All is quiet and they let ARGUS put Chase on the island, so then they decide to finish Oliver's bday (figuring that his actual party ends later after SA's comment about the party starting off with violence and ending with cake), but then BS and Evelyn break Chase and the other villains out. However, then there's still the problem of how the team gets there, since if there's a break-out, wouldn't sending in a missile or and ARGUS army or something be better than bringing in the team (sans non-regulars)? If BS and Evelyn could get to the island to break them out, shouldn't they be more worried about them flying off of the island instead of confronting them on it? And if the team is kidnapped, I'd kind of have a problem with the team's ability to defend themselves kind of like what Morrigan2575 said with the idea that BS and Evelyn would be able to kidnap Diggle, Thea, Felicity, Curtis, and Lance.

statsgirl

statsgirl

I think kidnapping Thea or Felicity would be enough to get the rest of Team Arrow to the island to save them.  I like the idea that Chase gets put in the ARGUS prison and that's why everything happens on Lian Yu.

2 hours ago, Buzzyspirit said:

I can see Argus using Helix to get information. But I imagine Lyla/Argus would be eager to find a way to control them as soon as possible. Would it be too harsh of Lyla to consider Felicity a way to reach that?

I like the idea of Lyla trying to find a way to control Helix, but if I were her I wouldn't use Felicity. She's too disingenuous, too bad a liar.

way2interested

way2interested

1 minute ago, ComicFan777 said:

If BS and Artemis teamed up with Talia and her school of ninja minions, I'd think that would be enough to overpower and kidnap Team Arrow and bring them to Lian Yu.

If it's something like that, I can buy it, along with the idea of Oliver feeling the need to team up with Malcolm/Kovar/whoever for 522/523.

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

Toss in a few smoke bombs laced with knock out gas.  That's what is usually used to take out a crowd.

Incapacitating them is one thing (like how DR had a cut on his head, it could be from someone whacking him in the head to knock him out) physically kidnapping all of them is what would be throwing me off, since it would probably take BS, Evelyn, and Talia put together to just lift Diggle in general, but it's probably just me being selectively nitpicky. 

insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

(edited)

I'm still liking my idea of Chase baking the cake. It could even be something he planned in the event he's caught. Then we get the whole, "hey, this cake is good. Wonder who baked it." Cue finding a note from Chase as everyone passes out. 

And since It would take more to knock out Diggle, he puts up as much of a fight as he can when whoever comes for them shows up, hence the head wound. 

Edited by insomniadreams88
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leopardprint

leopardprint

(edited)

From the MG interview posted by @tv echo in Spoilers Only

Quote

Um, so, on a very sort of elemental level, the season finale is about, 'Can Oliver, you know, prove Chase wrong? Can Oliver prove to Chase that he's not the person that Chase believes him to be?'

What nonsense is this? I hope he misspoke and meant Oliver has to prove to himself that Chase is wrong or Chase wants Oliver to kill him and prove him right and Oliver won't. This reads like Oliver is trying to redeem Chase or gain his approval? Chase is a psychopath who killed his own wife amongst others, why would he possibly need his acknowledgment by 523? This is such an odd comment. I'll need a trip to the Bolivian Salt Flats for this one, dude. 

@Primal Slayer's comment just gave me the horrifying and totally crazy thought, what if S6 has a Felicity vs Black Siren arc. Those two fandoms would destroy each other. MG seems that petty but not that clever.

Edited by leopardprint
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GirlvsTV

GirlvsTV

It also sounds like a total re-hash of s2's ending despite MG's attempts to differentiate between the two. 

The entire culmination of the Slade stuff was Oliver being strong enough to be a hero and NOT be a killer. And here we are in s5 and the end of Chase arc is for Oliver to resist being the killer Chase is trying to convince him he is . . . As much as MG may want to explore a more gray area with Oliver's choice to kill, I just don't think these writers have the skill to pull off writing that way. It requires a much more deft hand in characterization and plotting than this show's typical anvil falling, blunt force trauma style.

This is why, as much as I think JS is doing a great job, the whole Prometheus thing just does not hang together for me. These writers just have Oliver either fully regressing or basically spinning his wheels. They don't seem to know how to let Oliver move forward and find new storylines to explore.

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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

13 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

From the MG interview posted by @tv echo in Spoilers Only

What nonsense is this? I hope he misspoke and meant Oliver has to prove to himself that Chase is wrong or Chase wants Oliver to kill him and prove him right and Oliver won't. This reads like Oliver is trying to redeem Chase or gain his approval? Chase is a psychopath who killed his own wife amongst others, why would he possibly need his acknowledgment by 523? This is such an odd comment. I'll need a trip to the Bolivian Salt Flats for this one, dude. 

@Primal Slayer's comment just gave me the horrifying and totally crazy thought, what if S6 has a Felicity vs Black Siren arc. Those two fandoms would destroy each other. MG seems that petty but not that clever.

I think he meant exactly what you are saying..Chase believes Oliver is a monster that enjoys killing (and probably will keep taunting about that again) and MG said that the question is if Oliver will prove him wrong in the end. I didn't read it so much as trying to get his approval but as proving it to him because it's Chase the one that is saying that about Oliver so once Oliver realizes he is not a monster (probably after 1646383 speeches from his friends) he will prove it to Chase. I guess he spoiled that Oliver won't kill him..sort of like it ended with Slade that wanted Oliver to kill him to prove he is a killer..they really loved season 2, LOL. I guess Chase could also kill himself in the end though.

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leopardprint

leopardprint

(edited)
29 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think he meant exactly what you are saying..Chase believes Oliver is a monster that enjoys killing (and probably will keep taunting about that again) and MG said that the question is if Oliver will prove him wrong in the end.

Ok, that's what I got from the first part but then the second part threw me off because if at the very end of S5, Oliver still believes anything a villain tells him then he needs to quit the Superhero business and open that bakery you know he's dreaming about. 

29 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I guess Chase could also kill himself in the end though.

I think the earlier spec that Wilddog will kill him is probably right. Though I think Diggle could be a possibility as well. Early on in the "Felicity's Dark Spiral" storyline and with all the walking in each other's shoes comments, I actually thought she might end up killing him. I don't think Chase cares enough about his own life to be useful to the Suicide Squad. 

@GirlvsTV, I completely agree with your post. I don't think Prometheus needed to put it that much effort to beat Oliver at mind games. Poor guy has memory retention issues. I think with another actor, Prometheus wouldn't be nearly as successful. He's using weapons developed by four seasons worth of bad guys that Oliver should really have better defenses for at this point. 

Edited by leopardprint
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statsgirl

statsgirl

I just read the transcript of that MG interview (thanks @tv echo, we can't appreciate you nearly enough) and I have absolutely no idea what he said.

21 minutes ago, GirlvsTV said:

As much as MG may want to explore a more gray area with Oliver's choice to kill, I just don't think these writers have the skill to pull off writing that way. It requires a much more deft hand in characterization and plotting than this show's typical anvil falling, blunt force trauma style.

This is why, as much as I think JS is doing a great job, the whole Prometheus thing just does not hang together for me. These writers just have Oliver either fully regressing or basically spinning his wheels. They don't seem to know how to let Oliver move forward and find new storylines to explore.

Yes, that makes sense.  MG is selling season 2 in new clothes. Maybe he even believes s5 really is something different, but the only difference I see is that while Chase is also from Oliver's past, he's newer than Slade who knew Oliver from the island and that Chase is a better villain than Ra's and DD.

Basically it's JS's portrayal that is saving this season.

26 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I don't think Chase cares enough about his own life to be useful to the Suicide Squad. 

Good point.

But I think it has to be Chase killing himself or begging Oliver to do it because  the show is called Arrow.

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way2interested

way2interested

They could always pull a Batman Begins again and have Oliver not kill him but just decide not to *save* him (a.k.a. killing him, just not being direct about it). It could at least explain why MG and WM would have to bring up the "what's Oliver's willingness to kill?" question again (which would be, at that point if he ends up not killing Chase, not when someone torments him directly--killing his mother, threatening his loved ones, psychologically messing with him, Slade and Chase--but once the person becomes a direct threat to the public at large despite possibly having tormented him previously in a similar way--intentions with Malcolm in s1, Ra's, Darhk--).

Then again that could also come from the idea of allowing Chase to kill himself or allowing someone else to do it. 

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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

More than Batman Begins this season reminds me of TDK. Chase is just like the DA in the movie and with the GA being considered a criminal I can't rule out the same ending even if they didn't sell Chase as a symbol of justice for the city so if they exposed him and had the GA be recognized as the hero it would make for a better ending.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

57 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

More than Batman Begins this season reminds me of TDK. Chase is just like the DA in the movie and with the GA being considered a criminal I can't rule out the same ending even if they didn't sell Chase as a symbol of justice for the city so if they exposed him and had the GA be recognized as the hero it would make for a better ending.

Yeah, it's not like they can preserve his memory at this point.  The cat is out.  It would make sense to blame stuff on Chase that was currently blamed on GA.  Right now there is still a shoot to kill order on GA, right?

Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

58 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, it's not like they can preserve his memory at this point.  The cat is out.  It would make sense to blame stuff on Chase that was currently blamed on GA.  Right now there is still a shoot to kill order on GA, right?

Yeah..for Billy's murder. And it would make sense to tell the public it was Chase that caused his death since he set the GA up to kill him.

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theOAfc

theOAfc

On 9/4/2017 at 1:19 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Maybe she'll prove me wrong, but yeah, there's no way that E2 Laurel should ever end up with the same supposed personality that E1 Laurel had. I know I'd be much more receptive to BS if she always owns her more mean girl qualities.  

KC is only good at playing the mean girl role. She cant deliver more complex characters imo and the writers cant believably sell depth when it comes to anti heros or grey characters(Susan was a failure) so if they try to do that with BS it will probably fail.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)
4 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

I have to admit, I'm pretty shocked they invited MB back, given MB's attitude about the show. But given other recent returnees, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything.

That Arrow Oral History is going to be so epic!

I've never heard of the cast/crew having issues with Manu. Just because fandom has labeled him an asshole that they hate doesn't mean the cast/crew/EPs feel the same, unlike KC.

Edited by Morrigan2575
shadow2008

shadow2008

(edited)

I'm so excited that Manu is back for the finale. Slade was my favourite Arrow character in seasons 1 and 2. With Wendy teasing surprising alliances for the season finale, could Slade end up coming to Oliver's aid? After everything that Manu has said in the past, I find it hard to believe that he would agree to a guest spot where his character gets his ass kicked again. 

Edited by shadow2008
SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

15 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

I have to admit, I'm pretty shocked they invited MB back, given MB's attitude about the show. But given other recent returnees, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything.

That Arrow Oral History is going to be so epic!

If they can hire KC back, they can hire Manu. The shit he's pulled is nothing. But it doesn't look like it's for real anyway. Maybe Stephen is mocking him? Pap said he hasn't been seen. 

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