Spoiler Discussion Thread

[tv echo]

I also believe that they considered a potential GA/BC romance with Tinah at some point (and maybe they still are thinking about it , who knows).  And yes, I know that the "Tina" casting sides were fake, but why have the hopeful actresses read an audition scene filled with sexual tension if you weren't at least thinking about matching "Tina" up romantically with another character?

I also don't believe that the EPs always had a "plan" for Olicity since their break-up in 415 (as MG recently said). But regardless, I'm hopeful for the rest of this season now, so I've got my fingers crossed.

Edited March 26, 2017 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

5 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I also believe that they considered a potential GA/BC romance with Tinah at some point (and maybe they still are thinking about it , who knows).  And yes, I know that the "Tina" casting sides were fake, but why have the hopeful actresses read an audition scene filled with sexual tension if you weren't at least thinking about matching "Tina" up romantically with another character?

I also don't believe that the EPs always had a "plan" for Olicity since their break-up in 415 (as MG recently said). But regardless, I'm hopeful for the rest of this season now, so I've got my fingers crossed.

They did it with Katrina also. and then had her have chemistry test with CL

[LeighAn]

You mean they were waiting to see whether a ship would be born that would spurn popular fan support from all those scenes they wrote where Oliver and Dinah don't or barely interact? And when they do she calls him Boss and he treats her like a co worker?

Hardly the stuff ships are made of.

[tv echo]

Look, I don't want to beat a dead horse. But in S1, it only took one scene between Oliver & Felicity for the Olicity ship to set sail. After that, they shared only a scene here and there for most of S1.

Tinah had an entire episode (511) focused on her debut, where she shared several scenes with Oliver, including the ending shot of them framed by the window and Oliver telling her that maybe she's his second chance. Ships have been built on less. 

I can't begin to know what the EPs were thinking (maybe they were thinking of matching Tinah up with Diggle!). I'm just glad they didn't go there after 511, and I'm hoping that they never go there.

[theOAfc]

6 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

You mean they were waiting to see whether a ship would be born that would spurn popular fan support from all those scenes they wrote where Oliver and Dinah don't or barely interact? And when they do she calls him Boss and he treats her like a co worker?

Hardly the stuff ships are made of.

Last i checked they didnt intend anything with Tina/Dig but some already started rooting for them. Chemistry can present something differently,unless you think Olicity was a plan from the start of the show. 

I dont think Amell and Julianna lack chemistry but they certainly dont have anything special for general viewers to go out and think theres something going on between the characters. Unlike with Olicity that from the very first second some loved them and shipped them. Dig and Tina had a lot of chemistry from the first scene and people saw that even though the show didnt intend something like that.

[Velocity23]

3 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Look, I don't want to beat a dead horse. But in S1, it only took one scene between Oliver & Felicity for the Olicity ship to set sail. After that, they shared only a scene here and there for most of S1.

Tinah had an entire episode (511) focused on her debut, where she shared several scenes with Oliver, including the ending shot of them framed by the window and Oliver telling her that maybe she's his second chance. Ships have been built on less. 

I can't begin to know what the EPs were thinking (maybe they were thinking of matching Tinah up with Diggle!). I'm just glad they didn't go there after 511, and I'm hoping that they never go there.

Doesn't every new character have interactions with Oliver? This topic has been discussed months in advance of Tinahs appearance. And nothing came out of it.

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, GirlvsTV said:

My spec about this season is that the writers are terrible. When viewers don't respond or react the way they anticipated, it's always the viewers' fault and not the writing. If the writers can't acknowledge their screw-ups and learn from them, the show is never going to get any better. 

The writing has been terrible for a while. I haven't "trusted" the writers since season 2B. What got me to watch the show and stay with it has been the core cast (minus KC) because their chemistry elevated the bad writing to something that's entertaining. The problem with season 5 was that there were too many newbies that couldn't do the same thing. (And it didn't help that most of the new recurring actors didn't have chemistry with the core cast)

Edited March 26, 2017 by lemotomato

[Chaser]

If Tinah and Oliver were something they were planning, I don't think they would assume it would be Olicity 2.0. Olicity was serendipity. Olicity was also at the very beginning of the show, were they had the time to developed and reposition as needed.

If they were planning on turning Tinah and Oliver into the shows ship, it would need writing now.

Also, they had to detangle Oliver and Laurel because they had just made them a huge part of the pilot/premise. Olicity had already been broken up for quite awhile when Tinah was introduced, they didn't need to be detangled.

SA was joking about plot points that happened with Olicity at SDCC. They knew what they were setting up.

I think people are reading way too much into the chemistry test.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

If Tinah and Oliver were something they were planning, I don't think they would assume it would be Olicity 2.0. Olicity was serendipity. Olicity was also at the very beginning of the show, were they had the time to developed and reposition as needed.

If they were planning on turning Tinah and Oliver into the shows ship, it would need writing now.

I also think if they were planning on Oliver/Tinah, the last thing they'd do is put together an episode like 520, which is bound to remind the audience of Olicity's chemistry, no matter what happens in the episode. 

[LeighAn]

9 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

Last i checked they didnt intend anything with Tina/Dig but some already started rooting for them. Chemistry can present something differently,unless you think Olicity was a plan from the start of the show. 

I dont think Amell and Julianna lack chemistry but they certainly dont have anything special for general viewers to go out and think theres something going on between the characters. Unlike with Olicity that from the very first second some loved them and shipped them. Dig and Tina had a lot of chemistry from the first scene and people saw that even though the show didnt intend something like that.

Your argument is that the writers were  intending to write towards GA/BC ergo there would have had to be scenes written where they share dialogue beyond "Dinah do x and y" and "sure thing boss". 

And Olicity wasn't born from fan support. Olicity was born because the writers understood that they were screwed with Katie and Stephens anti chemistry; the network President loved Emily and told them he wanted more of her on the show; Stephen actually lit up in scenes with Emily and provided a soloution to their chemistry problem so they wrote a ton of meet cute platonic yet flirty scenes between the two characters which played up Emily and Stephens chemistry. By the time the show aired for the first time they were already writing or filming 1x12 where Felicity and Oliver have that scene about trust and we see them emotionally connect on a deeper level for the first time.

The writers may not have decided on making them endgame but they wrote towards Olicity or at the very least Stephen and Emily's chemistry before the show was even on air. They left bread crumbs and hoped the audience would follow them and Lo and behold they did.

Oliver and Dinah lack bread crumbs. I was promised flirty gazes and sexually charged training scenes. But I got nada. 

[tangerine95]

To me it really seems like they didn't even want Tinah herself so it's hard for me to believe they would want the GA/BC romance. I think the sides with that chemistry test scene were just to see if she could play a romantic, flirting dynamic but I don't think it was done with anyone specific in mind. More like a general thing in case they keep her for next season as a regular, I would assume at some point they would give her a LI if they were serious about the character beyond season 5. And it turned out MG wasn't lying since basically nothing in those sides was true. Onscreen I really didn't see any huge bond with Oliver or any hints of romance or chemistry testing. It doesn't seem to be different than with any of the newbies. 

[LeighAn]

14 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I think people are reading way too much into the chemistry test.

Especially when they didnt even chemistry test her with Stephen anyway. They just included a variety of scenes to establish the actresses who were auditioning range.For all we know there may have been sexually charged sides written between Wild Dog and Felicity when they were auditioning that character.

[theOAfc]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

Your argument is that the writers were  intending to write towards GA/BC ergo there would have had to be scenes written where they share dialogue beyond "Dinah do x and y" and "sure thing boss". 

My argument is that writers would put her on the show this season and see how people perceived her and her dynamic with the lead. Not that they would write towards anything romantic between them. And like someone already said,she got her own flashbacks episode and had plenty of screentime with Oliver during that. I never believed they wanted to test waters with this dynamic this season but if you ask me i do think they had on the back of their mind(and maybe still do) the possibility of testing waters next season if they got some good feedback,even more than they get for olicity. Which is why i used the Dinah/Dig scenes as an example. They react to feedback,they prove it again and again with how they change the show every year.

 

Olicity was born from fan support in my opinion(and thats ok because i think TV should react based on what works on screen and overall feedback from fans and critics is a good indicator about whether or not stuff work on screen). I do think they failed with KC /SA but if it wasnt for the overwhelming fan support they wouldnt go there with olicity,they would simply test new characters to have Oliver be in a relationship with, untill people would show feedback. At least thats my opinion. The chemistry argument is always used to explain why they decided for Emily to come back and eventually become a regular. She was after all,only meant to share a random one off scene with the lead so obviously they would comment on the chemistry with the lead to explain why they wanted her back (I do think they oversell it ever since they had olicity become a thing romantically). They could say the same about a male character and his chemistry with SA,because chemistry between actors isnt always about romance,its just how well two actors work. 

 

Also,you are talking about O/D as if Dinah has beeen part of the show for years. You need to remember that Olicity was almost non existent back in s1,with the writers putting felicity on scenes here and there mainly for comic relief. However years later and olicity got a lot of focus. Dinah is only in the show for like 7 episodes. 

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

The writers may not have decided on making them endgame but they wrote towards Olicity or at the very least Stephen and Emily's chemistry before the show was even on air.

Actutally as i said, they didnt write towards olicity before the show was on air,they simply decided to write more scenes with felicity because she had chemistry with stephen. They said themselves they didnt intend anything romantic back then. So again,thats my point here,they dont intend to write towards D/O as anything romantic  but if they see overwhellming feedback why not test the waters next season?  Thats exactly what happened with Olicity imo. 

The reason why i and others might think the writers have on the back of their minds that possibility,is mainly because she is BC. And we all know how much certain loud stans love comic canon. I dont understand why its considered so wrong by some that some people think about that scenario. Its not like the show hasnt done many weird things,based on actual feedback. They gave Laurel/Oliver a 100th wedding,im 99% sure it was meant to please certain stans(actual fanservice here) and it did. 

And IMO they never have actual well thought plans. They have ideas and they either stick to them or change them,based on feedback. Happens all the time. Happened with L/O .

Edited March 26, 2017 by theOAfc

[Velocity23]

[Trisha]

Remember when people were convinced Dinah was meant as a LI for Wild Dog because they couldn't (or didn't want to) imagine any other possible reason for a chemistry test? Chem tests are meant to determine whether the actor can pull off romance or flirting; it doesn't automatically mean they'll have a romantic storyline in mind with the character the scene is with - but it doesn't preclude it either. We'll never really know what the writers were initially planning, but it's not outside the realm of possibility to consider that they wanted to test some things out. 

In happier news, accordingly to Twitter someone on Reddit says the FB sex is connected to the scene where Felicity tries the salmon ladder. (I'm avoiding Reddit so I can't find and link to the source.)

[Featherhat]

31 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

To me it really seems like they didn't even want Tinah herself so it's hard for me to believe they would want the GA/BC romance. I think the sides with that chemistry test scene were just to see if she could play a romantic, flirting dynamic but I don't think it was done with anyone specific in mind. More like a general thing in case they keep her for next season as a regular, I would assume at some point they would give her a LI if they were serious about the character beyond season 5. And it turned out MG wasn't lying since basically nothing in those sides was true. Onscreen I really didn't see any huge bond with Oliver or any hints of romance or chemistry testing. It doesn't seem to be different than with any of the newbies. 

Yes it does seem to have been more of a DC/WB (or maybe CW as well) directive than something the producers were desperate to include. And I think DC might well like it if they had a romantic dynamic that begged to be explored, though I don't think they do and the writers aren't trying to force it. It's not exactly a deal breaker for BC on this show. They were determined to give LL the BC mantle long after they'd given up trying to write them in any kind of relationship other than an "argumentative/occasionally friendly colleagues" one (don't think that worked either but at least it wasn't totally anti chemistry romance.) I don't really see a reason for her to be a regular next season (none of the newbies really). She can be recurring as needed and I don't think they necessarily need to rush to tie down the actress. This is her biggest gig so far and she's ok but not sparkling exactly.

On another note I have no idea if WH pissed off someone or asked for time off but I always assumed it was because they wanted to concentrate on the plethora of new masks and didn't want to have to find room for Speedy especially now her Blood Lust is cleared up, MM is on LOT this season and Roy is gone for good. It's easier to write her a few scenes in the mayor's office once in a while and then have her be (rightly) suspicious of the reporter.

[theOAfc]

Its weird that Willa said "its not up to me" when asked about more Thea. Why would they sideline her character so much for newbies? Im starting to believe certain rumors about writers warning Willa over personal stuff interfering her work on the show might be true.

[Trisha]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Tinah had an entire episode (511) focused on her debut, where she shared several scenes with Oliver, including the ending shot of them framed by the window and Oliver telling her that maybe she's his second chance. Ships have been built on less. 

People seem to forget that scene. Oliver was totally bathed in light and yet, despite everything that's been written about what light symbolizes in connection to relationships in this show, it wasn't seen as a big deal. I could be convinced that the window scene and the van scene in 512 were baby steps towards "testing" but it didn't seem to connect in any way with the audience so the writers didn't do any big swerves with their plans. Yay for us!

5 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

Its weird that Willa said "its not up to me" when asked about more Thea. Why would they sideline her character so much for newbies? Im starting to believe certain rumors about writers warning Willa over personal stuff interfering her work on the show might be true.

I'm very curious to see what Willa's contract will look like in S6. If it wasn't personal stuff and they knew they'd only have her for 14 eps this season, I think they would have spaced out her appearances better. 

[leopardprint]

17 hours ago, statsgirl said:

But for me the question is not whether I was right but how many people gave up on the show of the bad planning and writing this season.  

I totally agree with this and frankly, yes I can say obviously due to my previous TV watching experiences they'll get the marquee couple back together. However, that's asking the viewer to do the work. The show is supposed to do the work not dump it on me so they can pursue boring retread storylines about people I don't care about. I also feel like not only did they ignore Olicity, but they backburned OTA, Diggle, Felicity, Thea and Oliver became so, so, so dumb. (Though I do enjoy complaining about Susan) 

Also do we have any spoilers about Diggle other than Lyla coming back? Diggle went from literal prison to newbie prison. Free Diggle! Get the band back together.

From the lack of spoilers, it seems like the new recruits are just going to hang out in the background to fulfill an eventual villain "This is your life, Arrow" throw down action set piece.

[Morrigan2575]

36 minutes ago, Trisha said:

People seem to forget that scene. Oliver was totally bathed in light and yet, despite everything that's been written about what light symbolizes in connection to relationships in this show, it wasn't seen as a big deal. I could be convinced that the window scene and the van scene in 512 were baby steps towards "testing" but it didn't seem to connect in any way with the audience so the writers didn't do any big swerves with their plans. Yay for us!

511/512 were filmed in November, they didn't air until early February. By the time 511 aired the show was filming 517, 518 was in prep and 519 was in final draft and 520 was broke. Where exactly was this swerve based on fan reaction supposed to happen?

As has been pointed out (repeatedly) Olicity and Felicity were developed and teased long before 103 ever aired (probably filming 111). Felicity and Olicity were a reaction to the cast, producers, dailies and early viewing by executives, not because of fans.  IF the show planned Dinah/Oliver (and it's beyond obvious at this point they didn't) they would have developed the relationship in all the episodes written and filmed long before 511 aired based on THEIR viewings of the dailies, their wants/plans/desires, etc.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, theOAfc said:

Olicity was born from fan support in my opinion(and thats ok because i think TV should react based on what works on screen and overall feedback from fans and critics is a good indicator about whether or not stuff work on screen)

 

1 hour ago, theOAfc said:

again,thats my point here,they dont intend to write towards D/O as anything romantic  but if they see overwhellming feedback why not test the waters next season?  Thats exactly what happened with Olicity imo. 

OR alternatively, the showrunners THEMSELVES, regardless of audience feedback, wrote for the  chemistry between Stephen and Emily (romantic or not) and were finding a way to get away from the (IMO) anti-chemistry between SA and KC without writing KC out of the show altogether. 

Yet even with that anti-chemistry, throughout s1 and IMO some of s2, Laurel was still the ostensible primary LI for Oliver. She bounced between him and Tommy in s1 and he bounced between her McKenna, Helena, Sara. But Laurel was never off the table altogether until IMO the finale of s2.

This is my anecdotal experience as a lowkey Olicity shipper in s2.

I can tell you that every forum I frequented back then (AVClub, TWOP, GATV, another one that I can't remember the name, comments sections on EW articles etc.)there was a pretty even split of Olicity and GA/BC/Lauriver shippers. There was great debate whether Oliver really meant the "I love you" to Felicity in "Unthinkable" as "love love" or friend love or whether it was all an act for the sake of the ruse to fool Slade, but he still really loved Laurel. I was always surprised at how many viewers thought SA and KC had hot chemistry and that SA and EBR did not because it was completely the opposite for me. 

IMO, based on the sample size of the sites I mentioned, it wasn't nearly as overwhelmingly for Olicity as your premise implies. And IF the showrunners, et al, were gauging audience feedback before deciding which character would be the ongoing love interest for Oliver in s2, I still think he'd be bouncing between Laurel and Felicity and who knows who else, meaning they wouldn't have been able to make an accurate reading if MY little sample size was remotely indicative of the bigger audience reactions back then. 

IMO, TV shows don't really fare that well when they rely 100% on audience feedback to decide the direction of the show. If that were the case, IMO, Moira wouldn't be dead, Tommy might be alive, Laurel may or may not still be with the show because she's more popular in other places than here; Olicity would never have broken up; Sara would never have been murdered, etc.  YMMV

ETA:  I don't think Tinah/Oliver is going to be a thing. If it does ever happen, IMO the only way that comes about is if Felicity is written out of the show altogether and that is 99.999% unlikely. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by catrox14

[insomniadreams88]

5 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I also feel like not only did they ignore Olicity, but they backburned OTA, Diggle, Felicity, Thea and Oliver became so, so, so dumb. (Though I do enjoy complaining about Susan) 

Also do we have any spoilers about Diggle other than Lyla coming back? Diggle went from literal prison to newbie prison. Free Diggle! Get the band back together.

From the lack of spoilers, it seems like the new recruits are just going to hang out in the background to fulfill an eventual villain "This is your life, Arrow" throw down action set piece.

Yes to all of this. Even ignoring the lack of Olicity as anything this season, with an explanation coming for that in 520, there's still a lack of anything really for anyone who's not Oliver (though he too has suffered for the newbies) and the new characters this season in general. 

Diggle had just gotten out of prison when suddenly he became the sounding board/"get an apartment and job!" cheerleader for Tinah. If not for the jbuffy spoilers, would we even know there was Dyla stuff coming up in 520? The only interview quotes from DR about Dyla that I can remember lately are the same ones we've gotten before about her heading ARGUS and the Suicide Squad. 

If theories about some past villains on Lian Yu for the finale are right, the whole point of the newbies might be so that they can divide up who faces which villain instead of having Oliver running around like it's an obstacle course, going from villain to villain as they just chill and wait for their turn. 

Did I see a tweet from this weekend about WH saying Thea kicked Susan's ass? Because I'm sorry, but getting her fired for what turned out to be a couple of days(?) doesn't count and if it's something coming up, wouldn't that mean CP would have to be in an episode past 519? Do not want that.

[theOAfc]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can tell you that every forum I frequented back then (AVClub, TWOP, GATV, another one that I can't remember the name, comments sections on EW articles etc.)there was a pretty even split of Olicity and GA/BC/Lauriver shippers. There was great debate whether Oliver really meant the "I love you" to Felicity in "Unthinkable" as "love love" or friend love or whether it was all an act for the sake of the ruse to fool Slade, but he still really loved Laurel. I was always surprised at how many viewers thought SA and KC had hot chemistry and that SA and EBR did not because it was completely the opposite for me. 

Looking at twitter and facebook,the biggest media that fans often visit(not even counting tumblr which is more popular than reddit) people loved olicity and couldnt stand anything LL back in season 2. I do think the L/O pairing had its fans,mainly comic purists, but honestly it wasnt even close to 30/70 compared to the olicity popularity back then. There are people that have  heard of the word olicity and not the word arrow. That was never the case with L/O.

However, forums often include the most passionate and updated with news groups of people over tv shows and  L/O shippers have proven to be pretty loud about their comic canon so i can understand why the debate was strong in the boards back then. But the number of people populating boards doesnt compare to the big social networks like facebook and twitter where you get a better taste of the general fans' opinions.

Edited March 26, 2017 by theOAfc

[Mrs. de Winter]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yet even with that anti-chemistry, throughout s1 and IMO some of s2, Laurel was still the ostensible primary LI for Oliver. She bounced between him and Tommy in s1 and he bounced between her McKenna, Helena, Sara. But Laurel was never off the table altogether until IMO the finale of s2.

I think Laurel was off the board as of the end of season one when there was even an interview with one of the producers who said they had to play out the T/L/O stuff to get to Oliver and Felicity.  I cannot think of anything - and it could be I have just forgotten - that supported the idea of Oliver and Laurel in season two.  He slept with her sister again.  He barely supported her in her drinking phase.  We found out he ran off to the island rather than stay with her.  Slade kidnapped her and Oliver reaction was so sad, too bad, city first.  And it was Slade - the villain -who told her about Oliver as GA - not Oliver. 

I think what may have - and I have doubts about this - still been on the table in season 2 was Green Arrow and Black Canary if the show had been able to get rid of Laurel and keep Sara.  But they could not let KC go yet so they went full in with Olicity (which I think was likely the preference anyway given the press and network feedback on SA and EBR).  

Similar to this season, and what I think part of what keeps tripping the show up time and time again,  they come up with what they consider a big moment that they want later in the season and figure once they get there everyone will go "ah, ha"!  So they did not play Olicity any harder during season two likely because they wanted the big surprise at the end of the season with the "I love you" reveal.  I would guess 5.20 will also surprise a lot of people because the writers have done a pretty bad job with leaving a trail of bread crumbs this year.

[Trisha]

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

511/512 were filmed in November, they didn't air until early February. By the time 511 aired the show was filming 517, 518 was in prep and 519 was in final draft.  Where exactly was this swerve based on fan reaction supposed to happen?

S21-23. We know 519 and 520 are big Olicity ones and there's FB sex, but there's still no indication that there's a present day reunion until 523, if at all (it may just be hinting at a reunion instead of a full one). There still would have been time to swerve.  And like you said, swerves aren't always based on fan reaction. Sometimes it's from the showrunners watching dailies or TPTB making decrees. 

Look, I've said before that I think an Olicity reunion at the end of the season has always been planned. (Poorly, tragically, ineptly planned but planned nonetheless.) That doesn't mean I'm completely shutting down the possibility that they weren't at all open to seeing where the characters took them (or following orders from above). I've been in TV fandoms since it was about joining usenet groups to talk about The X Files. Stuff happens and plans change, even on shows that appear much more thought out and better written than this one. It's not outside the realm of possibility, is all I meant. I can't be 100% confident about anything on this show after 5a.

In any case, I'm pretty sure this fandom is in for a long summer of debating "it was planned" vs "it was a rushed job due to ratings." 

[Velocity23]

1 minute ago, Trisha said:

S21-23. We know 519 and 520 are big Olicity ones and there's FB sex, but there's still no indication that there's a present day reunion until 523, if at all (it may just be hinting at a reunion instead of a full one). There still would have been time to swerve.  And like you said, swerves aren't always based on fan reaction. Sometimes it's from the showrunners watching dailies or TPTB making decrees. 

Look, I've said before that I think an Olicity reunion at the end of the season has always been planned. (Poorly, tragically, ineptly planned but planned nonetheless.) That doesn't mean I'm completely shutting down the possibility that they weren't at all open to seeing where the characters took them (or following orders from above). I've been in TV fandoms since it was about joining usenet groups to talk about The X Files. Stuff happens and plans change, even on shows that appear much more thought out and better written than this one. It's not outside the realm of possibility, is all I meant. I can't be 100% confident about anything on this show after 5a.

In any case, I'm pretty sure this fandom is in for a long summer of debating "it was planned" vs "it was a rushed job due to ratings." 

Why would they hint at 5x23 already? People only knew about happy Olicity during 3x23 because it was spoiled by Andy.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

If Tinah and Oliver were something they were planning, I don't think they would assume it would be Olicity 2.0. Olicity was serendipity. Olicity was also at the very beginning of the show, were they had the time to developed and reposition as needed.

If they were planning on turning Tinah and Oliver into the shows ship, it would need writing now.

Also, they had to detangle Oliver and Laurel because they had just made them a huge part of the pilot/premise. Olicity had already been broken up for quite awhile when Tinah was introduced, they didn't need to be detangled.

SA was joking about plot points that happened with Olicity at SDCC. They knew what they were setting up.

I think people are reading way too much into the chemistry test.

 

Until we saw how the show was actually going to write Tinah, I couldn't dismiss concerns about the chem test.  So many factors this season fit the worst case scenario narrative.  But after a couple episodes with Tinah, I would say if there's still worry based on the love scene tests, then yeah, I'd say people would be giving her test scenes too much weight.  

If they had any plans for her as Oliver's LI, sure, they'd wait til next year at least to take that step but they'd be building up their connection and friendship now. And instead they gave her an intro episode and one follow up scene in the next episode with one on one time with Oliver and since then, she's had really nothing with him save for stuff that throws her into the "just another mask" territory.    

They've written hard away from Oliver and Tinah connecting on a deeper level.  

And for that, I am grateful.   

Edited March 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

Looking at twitter and facebook,the biggest media that fans often visit(not even counting tumblr which is more popular than reddit) people loved olicity and couldnt stand anything LL back in season 2. I do think the L/O pairing had its fans,mainly comic purists, but honestly it wasnt even close to 30/70 compared to the olicity popularity back then. There are people that have  heard of the word olicity and not the word arrow. That was never the case with L/O.

I wasn't on Tumblr or Reddit back then so I have no thoughts on it. However, I am peruse Tumble now. I know they have some year end statistics about the popularity of ships, which I thought were  built on reblogs etc which tend to fall into fan bias with how folks curate their own blogs?  They reblog what they enjoy? I'm not expert in Tumblr but that's how it seems to me.

As to Twitter, I can't recall but I didn't think they were doing the Twitter ratings back then so I'm not sure how those measurements would have worked back then.  But again, just citing my own antecdotal experience is that is that it was not the 30/70 split you're suggesting then as it might be NOW. Look don't get me wrong, I am an Olicity person, but I think audience feedback was less important than in-show/actor reasons. Anyway, I'm not a stat head but if anyone has any hard numbers on this, I would be interested.

ETA: As to Olicity in the future, I'm not sure what they are going to do but I think they will end up back together and I would be very surprised to see Tinah/Oliver - because comics notwithstanding.

Edited March 26, 2017 by catrox14

[leopardprint]

19 minutes ago, Trisha said:

In any case, I'm pretty sure this fandom is in for a long summer of debating "it was planned" vs "it was a rushed job due to ratings." 

I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. 

Writers' Room (Summer 2016): "We'll get around to it eventually."

Writers' Room (Winter 2016): "Oh crap, let's shoehorn it in somewhere."

[Trisha]

23 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Why would they hint at 5x23 already? People only knew about happy Olicity during 3x23 because it was spoiled by Andy.

Never said they would or should. I think they've certainly loosened up lately when it comes to talking up Olicity in interviews, but it would be dumb for them to intentionally spoil the finale. 

[theOAfc]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wasn't on Tumblr or Reddit back then so I have no thoughts on it. However, I am peruse Tumble now. I know they have some year end statistics about the popularity of ships, which I thought were  built on reblogs etc which tend to fall into fan bias with how folks curate their own blogs?  They reblog what they enjoy? I'm not expert in Tumblr but that's how it seems to me.

As to Twitter, I can't recall but I didn't think they were doing the Twitter ratings back then so I'm not sure how those measurements would have worked back then.  But again, just citing my own antecdotal experience is that is that it was not the 30/70 split you're suggesting then as it might be NOW. Look don't get me wrong, I am an Olicity person, but I think audience feedback was less important than in-show/actor reasons. Anyway, I'm not a stat head but if anyone has any hard numbers on this, I would be interested.

I actually think now its leaning more towards 40/60 than the 30/70 of early seasons(obviously this number is my own perception of what i see around). Back then many male and female general fans loved olicity. I remember the olicity comments would hit 1K likes in an hour and the anti LL would hit 1K too. And it wasnt just on one facebook page,even in SA's page and in other corners of facebook olicity was pretty popular both to men and women. And twitter has always been much more olicity friendly than facebook.  Now ever since LL became BC the L/O popularity grew and even more comic purists would root for them unlike with early seasons. As for tumblr,olicity ranked as the 4th(if i remember correctly) most reblogged ship back in s3-s4(2015) while now it dropped to 13th or something for 2016(huge drop over a year). Even on twitter the popularity of LL and comic canon endgame grew even more in later seasons(however if you ask me i think it was bound to happen as a reaction to LL dying,everytime a main character dies people get extra loud). So i personally think the olicity popularity reached its peak in s3 and ever since it keeps dropping(it is also hated a lot over the last year  ) while the L/O ship got more popularity ever since she became BC because much more expected the show to fulfill canon. Back in s2 there were also some Sara/Oliver shippers and many comic purists wanted her to be the BC instead of LL so there was that too .  

Edited March 26, 2017 by theOAfc

[tv echo]

2 hours ago, Trisha said:

In happier news, accordingly to Twitter someone on Reddit says the FB sex is connected to the scene where Felicity tries the salmon ladder. (I'm avoiding Reddit so I can't find and link to the source.)

I didn't go to reddit, but I found this tweet...

[Velocity23]

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Soulfire said:

 

 

Bless that man!!!   Everyone needs to send him soda!

[tv echo]

One more...

[statsgirl]

I think even if you don't have a specific ship in mind, it doesn't hurt to do a general chemistry test to see if an actor can generate chemistry for a future storyline.

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Quote

But I think the only people who thought they would never revisit it were die hard olicity haters and olicity fans who thought they were catering to die hard haters.

I really felt like the second part couldn't be ruled out from the way they were talking over the summer.  Especially when the new BC stuff came up and the "you can't tell GA without BC".  It felt like the rhetoric had been hijacked (and it may have though for a different reason) but once I saw the first episode of the season, I was feeling pretty confident that Olicity would return.  Still, the show gave so little to subsist on in the meantime, it was hard not to waver in that certainty at times. 

I've said all along that the EPs would be nuts to lose Olicity and go to a GA/BC romance just because a small portion of the audience wanted their comic books recreated but something being nuts and it being done are not mutually exclusive. You only have to look at Sleepy Hollow to see how they deliberately squandered the Ichabod/Abbie chemistry first in s2 with the awful Katrina storyline and in s3 deliberately writing against it.  There is a long history of show-runners ruining their own shows because of a particular idea or character/actor they are enamored with.

If you're looking for an instance where everyone said "nope, not gonna happen", you need look no further than the results of the last U.S. election.

From a few pages back:

On 2017-03-24 at 10:20 AM, leopardprint said:

Oliver and Susan should have broken up before she was kidnapped in 516. They show her considering doing the story on him, she gets kidnapped, he rescues her and she decides not to. Boom, done with story and Susan, goes with their stupid caring nonsense and doesn't kill the momentum they've finally gotten going.

I think the only reason they hadn't broken up was because the writers needed someone Oliver cared about to be kidnapped.  It couldn't be Thea now because they limited WH's appearances, it couldn't be Felicity because they're saving her for the big finish, and everyone else (Diggle, Dinah, Rene, Curtis) was either too powerful for Chase to kidnap or the audience wouldn't care enough.

I wonder if when Oliver breaks up with her for her own safety because being around him is dangerous, I wonder if he'll mention Felicity being paralyzed last season. Somehow I doubt it.

On 2017-03-24 at 6:18 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

I disagree on that one. Felicity is the one that walked away. Oliver was going to put an end to their potential relationship, as Felicity overheard but, the way the scene played out, Felicity was the one to walk away.

Felicity was the one that walked away but only because Oliver was about to say the words himself.  If it were up to her, their relationship wouldn't have ended at all so the break-up itself was on Oliver.

On 2017-03-24 at 6:22 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I don't have to have faith though.  It's their history of bad writing that I'm counting on.   [snip]

I completely agree about season 3.  As great as 320 was, the next couple episodes were just brutal and if some random driver hadn't seen them filming the driving off into the sunset bit, I think we would have been more blindsided by that ending than season 2's "He took the wrong woman". 

Yes! From the time Felicity left Nanda Parbat till halfway through 3x23, it was sheer misery for me. At the end of 3x22, I lay down on my bed and curled up I was so unhappy.  What I learned from season 3 is that I can't get too involved in this show because the writers love jerking us around for shits and giggles.

It's looking good right now but I can't trust them at all.

[ComicFan777]

Quote

I wonder if when Oliver breaks up with her for her own safety because being around him is dangerous, I wonder if he'll mention Felicity being paralyzed last season. Somehow I doubt it.

I think Felicity's paralysis has been completely forgotten in show.  It didn't even come up when Oliver was listing examples of people he cared about that were hurt by gun violence.

[Guest]

It's a shame they've forgotten her paralysis exists because Felicity messing around with other hackers would've been the perfect time for one of them to hack the chip in her spine or something. Maybe as a way to force her to do something. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Guest

[Velocity23]

[Morrigan2575]

Guess that spec about Lian Yu and villains might be true? Maybe Deathstroke, BS, Prometheus and Captain Boomerang all team up against Team Arrow

[Chaser]

Can Felicity and Thea tag team Deathstroke? 

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

Can Felicity and Thea tag team Deathstroke? 

If the Spec is true. Obviously Oliver has to take Prometheus. I'm guessing Spartan takes Deathstroke, BC vs BS is obvious, that leaves Talia and Captain Boomerang (maybe). Hmm, my guess would be Wild Dog gets Talia and Curtis (I refuse to use that code name) get Captain Boomerang.

[Mrs. de Winter]

Apparently he then said he hopes that happens in regard to the Deathstroke.

Could just be cover for him for something he wasn't supposed to share...

[strikera0]

If they bring back Deathstroke, I'm wondering if Manu will be playing the part or are they going to stick some other actor into the costume like in the 100th episode? I'm assuming it's the latter, but hoping for the former. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by strikera0

[BkWurm1]

21 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

Apparently he then said he hopes that happens in regard to the Deathstroke.

Could just be cover for him for something he wasn't supposed to share...

Or still in negotiations?  Still, They could just have him there in the suit.  "Slade Wilson has asked me to tell you that he's not talking to you anymore."

Edited March 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Morrigan2575]

Given DRs history, I think he might have accidentally spoiled something he wasn't supposed to. 

[Sunshine]

I would guess if that is what 5.23 is about he makes a cameo in the final scene of 5.22 which is what SA thinks is going to make everyone excited for the finale.

[BkWurm1]

Well if Manu does come back I will be extra happy to see his butt get kicked on screen . The love, it's gone.  

[calliope1975]

As dickish as Manu is, it would be cool to have Slade back, but if it's Rando Stuntman #4 in the suit, my enthusiasm is much less. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm guessing that's just gonna be a mask and stunt man ala 508.