Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Midori Ya]

26 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Yeah I don't know what they're trying to do but if they want to transition to a new BC the worst thing they can do is bait LL fans like this and at the same time annoy people who dislike her by constantly bringing her back for guest spots and mentioning her. The fans who want BC back literally mean only LL and I seriously doubt they will be happy with their plans. 

Generally I agree w/ what you're saying here, but I am aware, from visiting various discussion forums, that there are some portion of fans who would like to see Black Canary back on the show and are open to it not being LL. I've seen such comments when the talk was centered around Tina possibly being brought in to become the next BC. For instance, I know of specifically 2 "comic fans" that want BC back, were outraged at the idea of BC being killed, but never liked the LL version of BC and are open to the possibility of Tina taking over the role. So I think there are some fans who have an allegiance to the idea of BC and her place in GA canon, but never liked the Arrow LL version. Their outrage at the death of BC would seem to be more abstract and focused on the "principle" of killing BC,  rather than personal attachment to the LL Arrow version.

And then of course it's always hard to know how the portion of the broader audience who may have enjoyed the BC character and were dismayed at her death but do not participate in social media would react.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Midori Ya

[tangerine95]

Oh yeah I'm sure there's people who just want to see a version of BC on the show but Idk from what I've seen to a lot of people that were outraged about LL being killed off, BC has to be called Laurel Lance so Idk how much they'll accept a random character the show made up taking the name BC. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

7 minutes ago, Midori Ya said:

Generally I agree w/ what you're saying here, but I am aware, from visiting various discussion forums, that there are some portion of fans who would like to see Black Canary back on the show and are open to it not being LL. I've seen such comments when the talk was centered around Tina possibly being brought in to become the next BC. For instance, I know of specifically 2 "comic fans" that want BC back, were outraged at the idea of BC being killed, but never liked the LL version of BC and are open to the possibility of Tina taking over the role. So I think there are some fans who have an allegiance to the idea of BC and her place in GA canon, but never liked the Arrow LL version. Their outrage at the death of BC would seem to be more abstract and focused on the "principle" of killing BC,  rather than personal attachment to the LL Arrow version.

And then of course it's always hard to know how the portion of the broader audience who may have enjoyed the BC character and were dismayed at her death but do not participate in social media would react.

I believe you, the problem though is that the questions about bringing back BC and the SA's answer came right after a cliffhanger showing LL alive and well so it feels like they are giving hope to that portion of fans that want LL's version of the BC, not any version. I don't see the point in teasing her return if they plan to make someone else take the mantel (If that's happening, we don't know for sure). I imagine those fans will feel cheated and will make the writers aware of that. I can't see the upside of that strategy. 

[Midori Ya]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I believe you, the problem though is that the questions about bringing back BC and the SA's answer came right after a cliffhanger showing LL alive and well so it feels like they are giving hope to that portion of fans that want LL's version of the BC, not any version. I don't see the point in teasing her return if they plan to make someone else take the mantel (If that's happening, we don't know for sure). I imagine those fans will feel cheated and will make the writers aware of that. I can't see the upside of that strategy. 

Yes, I agree w/ you that that specific instance of a tease -- showing what seems to be LL at the cliffhanger -- is problematic. Again speaking only of what I have seen from some social media fans, I think there are at least 2 reactions to that tease among fans who want  the LL BC back. One group does think this is a way, albeit probably very convoluted, of somehow giving them back the E-1 LL BC version. In other words, they have faith that LL is going to be brought back and so yes, pursuing "teases" like this is likely just going to enrage & alienate them even more. Then there are also some who would like the E-1 LL BC back, but they are very cynical and assume that this is exactly what it seems to be (at least to me): a tease. In other words, they don't really think they're ever going to get LL BC back, at least on Arrow. But this latter group also seems to have an overall cynical perspective on pretty much everything Arrow-related, so they don't seem to necessarily feel singled out for ill treatment. In other words, yes, they think they're just being toyed w/ and Arrow producers are trying to manipulate them, but they also think Arrow writers seem to do this generally about many Arrow-related things overall. I guess they seem to have the attitude of "yeah, I'm going to keep watching but I see what you're doing there and it doesn't fool me one bit"

[AyChihuahua]

17 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

Tina isn't at the diner though

Tina's right behind the diner, on the same day, immediately after the lunch break. So clearly, that was in fact her that @HighHopes saw.

17 hours ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

So at least some parts of the leaked sides were accurate. Her name is Tina and she and Oliver have some sort of alley scene together. 

Ta da!

[AyChihuahua]

16 hours ago, statsgirl said:

They said that Felicity would get a storyline that isn't about her father or her love interests.

Starting a start-up so Curtis doesn't feel so sad about his marriage falling apart would fit the bill.

I'd guess a Chloe ripoff of collecting vigilantes. That has been going on since 502.

[Velocity23]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Tina's right behind the diner, on the same day, immediately after the lunch break. So clearly, that was in fact her that @HighHopes saw.

Ta da!

Wow an alley scene on Arrow. What a novelty. 

[AyChihuahua]

16 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

This is my fear. Just look at the flashback in 509. How is anyone supposed to believe Oliver in an "epic romance" with someone else when he looked so smitten at a time when he shouldn't have?

I feel like I've said it before, but I really hope the writers surprise me with Felicity's arc and it's something so good that it somehow makes up for 5A. (It would have to be big for that to happen though.)

I think EBR is safe until they see the reception and ratings. However, if they keep giving her nothing to do, I don't know why she'd want to stay any longer than she absolutely has to, which is presumably through S6.

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

Wow an alley scene on Arrow. What a novelty. 

I don't remember saying it was at all novel? I remember saying that @HighHopes was correct and truthful, and that the sides are at least partly correct (not merely a scene in an alley, an ACTION scene in an ALLEY with Oliver and TINA who is NAMED TINA).

Not sure how that requires snark?

3 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

Yeah I don't know what they're trying to do but if they want to transition to a new BC the worst thing they can do is bait LL fans like this and at the same time annoy people who dislike her by constantly bringing her back for guest spots and mentioning her. The fans who want BC back literally mean only LL and I seriously doubt they will be happy with their plans. 

I don't think they're trying for LL/KC stans. I think they're trying for generally comics-positive dudebros who like watching hot chicks fight in leather, regardless of what said hot chicks' given names are. 

Also, as someone who has correctly predicted every major event this season literal months ago, from Felicity really having a bf and not a Flashpoint fakeout, that bf being the cop, the bf lasting longer than one or two episodes, Oliver hooking up with the reporter, the 509 cliffhanger being KC appearing, and NuBC happening, I'm not really sure why such predictions continue to be met with derision.

Edited December 11, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

I can see why they think the BC minded audience wouldn't give them much push back on a nuBC. The write ups I saw on LLs death were from Comic sites who were all about BC importance to GA in the comics, very little importance was given to Laurel. However that portion, comic readers who are also Arrow watchers, of viewership is incredibly small. 

I think their biggest problem is going to come from the general audience that has been there since S1. That audience had already watched two Canary origin stories. They watched one Canary get killed to make another and, superficially speaking, they are watching it happen again. Its another round of, What's the point? Just how interested is the general audience going to be in this character.

Boardly speaking, I don't think Arrow is ever going to win with Black Canary. IMO They torpedoed any chance of them getting it right by hiring KC. Not just because of her portrayal but because they hired her they couldn't fix their mistakes. 

[Primal Slayer]

They won plenty of people over when they actually wrote LL well in S3&4. They already tried once bringing in a BC that wasn't Laurel and it went over well enough but not well enough to keep her long term in the role and now bringing in a totally new character probably wont work that well. I'll be standing by to watch the writers dig the shows grave even further.

They just keep wanting to reopen the same wound over and over again, it's sad. 

[tangerine95]

I agree, i feel like they missed the chance with BC at least in the way that they originally intended. And now its season 5 and since season 2 we've been watching them struggle with the BC story so i really think for whatever reason they're doing it again it will be a mistake. Arrow also brought 4 new masks that don't seem to be gaining much popularity either so adding another also doesn't seem like a great idea no matter what they call her. 

Its really dumb imo because they literally have the option of making Sara BC. She has a fanbase, she seems to be the most popular part of LoT, has her own show where she's leading her own team, they already gave her a bunch of BC stuff anyway etc. Seems like a better option to keep the BC character in the DCTV universe than a totally new character on a show where most new characters they introduce aren't that well accepted or end up hated. 

[insomniadreams88]

If any of the rest of those sides are on the show... And right now I specifically mean the whole "best fighter" part. She'd have to better than every single fighter we've had thus far then, right? I'd feel bad for all of them. (Does that mean that she'll be able to do some crazy flip like Prometheus too then? What was her training like while she was also training to be a cop and becoming a detective?) 

If they really want Tina to work as a new character (new Canary, just detective, friend, LI, whatever), they need to introduce her more like Rory - not like Rene,  taking up a lot of screen time and all this "I can handle it on my own, I don't need to listen, etc." Let people come to their own conclusions and like her, don't try to force her on the audience as someone they need to like. 

[Guest]

If some fans didn't even accept Sara as BC in s2 (who was BC in everything but name, IMO), then how are they going to accept Tina as BC? At least Sara was a Lance and connected to Oliver in a big way. 

I know we're all just speculating about Tina as the new BC but if it's true, this has disaster written all over it. Not to mention I think it's pretty shitty for them to tease Laurel's return and then have someone else take up her BC mantle. Yikes.

[statsgirl]

Caity Lotz came on as Sara too soon for BC fans (although just right for future LoT fans).  LL/KC hadn't had a shot at the Black Canary role  yet so there was no way Sara could keep it.  If LL had been Black Canary first, then they might have kept Sara/CL in the role.

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

As for Felicity's 5B storyline, I think it'll be tied back to Havenrock - her way of atoning - and that it'll involve Rory. That would explain why Felicity and Rory aren't in the 511 diner scene. Maybe she sells her stock in Palmer Tech and uses the multi-million dollar proceeds to build a new development in Havenrock's memory? Maybe this new development will be a haven ("haven" - get it?) for people with powers like Rory? That would also provide a reason for Rory to leave the show after this season. Remember this 511 pic that MG tweeted? 

I now think that Tina won't hook up with anyone this season, but just join Team Arrow - temporarily at first and permanently by the end of the season.  If the EPs expect the show to last another 3-5 years, then they may be planning another slow building love connection. That'll give them time to see how her character pops with fans and if people start spontaneously shipping her with Oliver or Wild Dog or whoever (you know, "organically"). I still think she's an intended love interest for someone currently on the show, but I now think they'll wait until next season for the actual hook-up. In the meantime, they'll work on making her a likeable character - tough fighter with amazing skills, warm and sometimes vulnerable character with sympathetic back story, loyal friend, etc.

It would be a really smart idea for Tina not to hook up with anyone this season and just have had that bit in the casting sides to see if the actress can do romantic scenes.  Oliver telling that she's the best fighter he's ever seen is just cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.  If she was intended for Wild Dog, then they should see if he's popular enough to remain past this season.

I assumed that MG tweeted about Hub City because that's where they find Tina but it's possible that they're going to have Felicity built something there.  I have mixed feelings about that because while it would give her a storyline of her own, it would take her out of them main action even more and place her on Hub City Island.

2 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

 think Tina won't be better accepted than most of the newbies because the main issue with them imo is that they don't have an actual purpose or bring anything new to the show or team since all the masks do the same thing basically. And everything BC related has been already told to death with Sara and Laurel so she has that working against her too if she really is BC.Imo her best shot at being accepted with a lot of fans is if they write her as a friend to Felicity and Thea since female friendship is something that's actually missing on the show.

A big issue with the show is that most of the characters added since season 2 have been pretty much interchangeable  because they all do the same thing and their personalities aren't different enough to justify them in terms of story time.  But there is a part of the fandom who just want to see a bunch of masks fighting bad guys..

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I hope he is aware when fans ask about the Black Canary being back they mean Laurel. I don't get what they hope to achieve baiting fans like that..

I don't think they're baiting, I think they're trying to pave the way for a new Black Canary.  Maybe it's a DC directive that there must be a BC to fight with GA, maybe they're trying to appeal to the fans who hated that the Black Canary is gone and want the TV show to more closely resemble the comics.  If she's a halfway decent actress, it will be good enough to meet those needs.

The big problem that I see is bringing back KC, especially as a msf tease, just before they bring Tina on.

[Chaser]

Based on some comments made by CL and the EPs over hiatus, I wonder if the original plan was to have Sara take the Black Canary name. 

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

If some fans didn't even accept Sara as BC in s2 (who was BC in everything but name, IMO), then how are they going to accept Tina as BC? At least Sara was a Lance and connected to Oliver in a big way. 

Sara was popular enough to get a place in the spin off and I didn't get the vibe that the audience was clamoring to give Laurel the BC title after her death. I still think the intention was to write Laurel out in S2 and give Sara the BC role. I think it didn't happen because KC got her lawyers involved. Laurel gained some admirers in S3/S4, but not enough for the network to stop the show from killing her off. I can see why they think the audience wouldn't have a problem with Tina. I think they are misjudging the tolerance of the audience, but I get the perception the audience wouldn't care.

[AyChihuahua]

Very nearly every woman regular/recurring on the show has been someone's love interest. The only ones I can think of who weren't are Joanna, who didn't last long, and China White, who's a villain. I really cannot see them hiring someone as attractive as JH and not making her somebody's love interest. 

Also, I personally think this is all likely to be a disaster, but that's never stopped Guggie & Co. before. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Midnight Lullaby]

13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

 

I don't think they're baiting, I think they're trying to pave the way for a new Black Canary.  Maybe it's a DC directive that there must be a BC to fight with GA, maybe they're trying to appeal to the fans who hated that the Black Canary is gone and want the TV show to more closely resemble the comics.  If she's a halfway decent actress, it will be good enough to meet those needs.

The big problem that I see is bringing back KC, especially as a msf tease, just before they bring Tina on.

I meant they are baiting the fans of KC's version of the BC. They showed her alive and well at the end of the MSF, SA shared a video of the reactions to her appearance then answered to a fan that he would like to have BC back because of her importance. That's not a good way to pave the way for another actress to take her place IMO.

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I meant they are baiting the fans of KC's version of the BC. They showed her alive and well at the end of the MSF, SA shared a video of the reactions to her appearance then answered to a fan that he would like to have BC back because of her importance. That's not a good way to pave the way for another actress to take her place IMO.

Yeah, SA's tactical skills almost rival Oliver's in their...shortsightedness...nowadays.

[Starfish35]

Sara was mostly accepted, except by the Laurel fans of course, up until she and Oliver got together again.  Then there was a huge backlash, but that didn't have anything to do with her being BC.  

I agree with @Chaser.  No matter how much everyone protests that oh, yeah, we were always going to make Laurel the BC, I don't believe them.  You don't bring someone on and put them in an actual Black Canary costume if they're just intended to be a "proto-Canary."  (Look at the concept art - it's clearly labeled Black Canary.)  They gave Sara everything.  The costume, the skills, the LOA connection, Sin, the Clocktower, the Canary Cry bombs (which fit more in the pre-Barry Allen phase of the show), riding on the motorcycle with Oliver.  You don't go that far for a stand-in.  They had to redo everything for Laurel, and she always came up short in the comparison.  I don't know what happened behind the scenes in the back half of season two to make them change direction, but I'll always be convinced Sara being BC was the original plan.

IF Tina is the new BC (and I know that's still a big IF), I guess I'll just never understand why "Tina Boland" can have that name, and "Sara Lance" is just not allowed to.  Or why, come to that, they killed off Laurel if having a BC on the show is so absolutely vital.  I mean, I couldn't stand Laurel, but replacing her like this just makes it look like they were getting rid of Laurel/KC, if they're so eager to bring on a new and different BC.

And teasing that she might be back like this, and then going "Surprise! No she's not! But here, have this entirely new BC instead!"  Well.  That's going to go over spectacularly, I'm sure.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I don't know what happened behind the scenes in the back half of season two to make them change direction, but I'll always be convinced it was the original plan.

Most likely expensive lawyers lol

2 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

IF Tina is the new BC (and I know that's still a big IF), I guess I'll just never understand why "Tina Boland" can have that name, and "Sara Lance" is just not allowed to.  Or why, come to that, they killed off Laurel if having a BC on the show is so absolutely vital.  I mean, I couldn't stand Laurel, but replacing her like this just makes it look like they were getting rid of Laurel/KC, if they're so eager to bring on a new and different BC.

Maybe DC wants more merch sales. Sara as White Canary and Tina as Black Canary I guess?

[Primal Slayer]

KC should tech a class if all of that were true lol. I doubt DC wants more merch sales, they havent even fully utilized comic Canary in merch apart from their expensive statues. 

[dtissagirl]

18 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

 I don't know what happened behind the scenes in the back half of season two to make them change direction, but I'll always be convinced Sara being BC was the original plan.

 

15 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Most likely expensive lawyers lol

Do we know more about this? Because just yesterday someone casually mentioned to me that back in S2 KC filed a complaint with the SAG about the show intending to give BC to CL, like this was something people knew. I had never heard anything about it. But if true -- it explains EVERYTHING.

Edited December 11, 2016 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

Can she do that? I know Hollywood is a strange place, but this sounds really strange.

[Starfish35]

4 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Do we know more about this? Because just yesterday someone casually mentioned to me that back in S2 KC filed a complaint with the SAG about the show intending giving BC to CL, like this was something people knew. I had never heard anything about it. But if true -- it explains EVERYTHING.

It would explain everything.  But no, I know nothing. :) I'm just going off what I saw on the show. 

[Primal Slayer]

6 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Can she do that? I know Hollywood is a strange place, but this sounds really strange.

She is super smart at getting what she wants. They practically bend over backwards to make sure she is happy.

[AyChihuahua]

21 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I mean, I couldn't stand Laurel, but replacing her like this just makes it look like they were getting rid of Laurel/KC, if they're so eager to bring on a new and different BC.

Between the no-chem thing and her absolute inability to portray a believable action heroine, I think that's it exactly. I'm betting she probably also filed SAG complaints constantly. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

 

Do we know more about this? Because just yesterday someone casually mentioned to me that back in S2 KC filed a complaint with the SAG about the show intending giving BC to CL, like this was something people knew. I had never heard anything about it. But if true -- it explains EVERYTHING.

Yes, I heard it too.

And they all talked about Sara as the BC before backtracking at some point. I've also wondered though what would have happened if her arc got a bigger reaction from the audience. If that might have been another factor in the decision of killing her off for Laurel..

[dtissagirl]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yes, I heard it too.

And they all talked about Sara as the BC before backtracking at some point. I've also wondered though what would have happened if her arc got a bigger reaction from the audience. If that might have been another factor in the decision of killing her off for Laurel..

I don't really wonder about what if Laurel happened because she never did. But now I'm wondering two opposite things --

1. What if they hadn't had Sara and Oliver lunge in 213, which would mean no negative reaction to Sara from a bunch of 'shippers back when they cared what 'shippers thought.

2. What if they knew 'shippers would hate Sara/Oliver anyway, so they threw her to the wolves on purpose bc they were lawyered.

Edited December 11, 2016 by dtissagirl

[wonderwall]

26 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Do we know more about this? Because just yesterday someone casually mentioned to me that back in S2 KC filed a complaint with the SAG about the show intending to give BC to CL, like this was something people knew. I had never heard anything about it. But if true -- it explains EVERYTHING.

I heard it a while ago... It makes sense with how everything happened. Sara's death was rushed, and Malcolm's plan was way too convoluted that it seemed very last minute. 

Also the way they were phasing LL out of the show in season 2 is very indicative that something BTS happened that included lawyers. Maybe it's because she felt as though her contract wasn't fulfilled. She signed on to become BC - and the show didn't fulfill that contract? IDK

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Now I'm wondering two opposite things --

1. What if they hadn't had Sara and Oliver lunge in 213, which would mean no negative reaction to Sara from a bunch of 'shippers back when they cared what 'shippers thought.

2. What if they knew 'shippers would hate Sara/Oliver anyway, so they threw her to the wolves on purpose bc they were lawyered.

I actually think they did the lunge to finally end Lauriver so that they could finally kill Laurel off but then had to change the course of the show because of said BTS issues. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by wonderwall

[Starfish35]

Would whatever happened then be preventing them from making Sara BC now though? 

[Primal Slayer]

I doubt she had it in her contract that she would become Black Canary so much so that she would be able to force them to do it and give her an arc dealing with it when they could've just put her in costume and killed her off within seconds of doing so.

I'm surprised that KC wouldn't have it in her contract that no one could play BC on Arrow besides her.

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Would whatever happened then be preventing them from making Sara BC now though? 

Yeah, that's iffy, because it's not like KC can tell them what to do with BC -- that's an IP that belongs to Time Warner/DC.

But also, man, if this really happened, her deranged grinning in the jacket scene reaches a whole new level of W O W.

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, Midori Ya said:

Generally I agree w/ what you're saying here, but I am aware, from visiting various discussion forums, that there are some portion of fans who would like to see Black Canary back on the show and are open to it not being LL. I've seen such comments when the talk was centered around Tina possibly being brought in to become the next BC. For instance, I know of specifically 2 "comic fans" that want BC back, were outraged at the idea of BC being killed, but never liked the LL version of BC and are open to the possibility of Tina taking over the role. So I think there are some fans who have an allegiance to the idea of BC and her place in GA canon, but never liked the Arrow LL version. Their outrage at the death of BC would seem to be more abstract and focused on the "principle" of killing BC,  rather than personal attachment to the LL Arrow version.

And then of course it's always hard to know how the portion of the broader audience who may have enjoyed the BC character and were dismayed at her death but do not participate in social media would react.

I'm not saying you are wrong but that's a level of hypocrisy I wasn't expecting. I probably should but I don't get it, not after all the conversations I've had with people that were adamant that only Laurel (or her mother, lol) could be the Black Canary because name was everything.  Even going back to Smallville. Name was all that ever mattered.  If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it still couldn't be a duck unless it came with the original comic approved name.  

I've wondered for a while if they were going to just give Tina the name Dina Drake (Dina/Tina - see what they did ) I know we've been told it's Tina Bolland but I'm still expecting a swerve.  At the very least a reveal that her last name originally was Drake.  With the name Tina Drake, they might be able to pass her off as the real thing with the comic book crowd in the same way that they've had Curtis rather than Michael Holt for Mr. Terrific.  

[LeighAn]

Well I mean a couple of months ago when Marc went on tumblr to do asks I thought it was strange that he referred to Katie's representation when replying to answers on her return which seemed strange to me at the time and what I thought was just him trying to dismiss the questions. 

[Starfish35]

2 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Well I mean a couple of months ago when Marc went on tumblr to do asks I thought it was strange that he referred to Katie's representation when replying to answers on her return which seemed strange to me at the time and what I thought was just him trying to dismiss the questions. 

Yes that was a very odd response.

[Midnight Lullaby]

31 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't really wonder about what if Laurel happened because she never did. But now I'm wondering two opposite things --

1. What if they hadn't had Sara and Oliver lunge in 213, which would mean no negative reaction to Sara from a bunch of 'shippers back when they cared what 'shippers thought.

2. What if they knew 'shippers would hate Sara/Oliver anyway, so they threw her to the wolves on purpose bc they were lawyered.

More that the negative reactions from shippers I was thinking that the episodes where she and Oliver were the focus didn't exactly have stellar ratings and that if they did maybe they would have decided to keep her as BC because it would have been worthy.

I also disagree that the main problem with Sara was that she got together with Oliver and I say this as a shipper. I couldn't care less about that (other than thinking it was pretty icky because of Laurel) but I was bored that it became the Oliver/Sara show. So basically my issue with her is the same of almost every guest star they have. They push them too much and at the same time they take attention away from the characters I already like.

And the fact that they pushed her so much tells me they wanted the audience to like her, not that they wanted to make space for LL.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[statsgirl]

Katie Cassidy said they when they approached her about the role, one of the things that attracted her was that she would be a superhero and do stunts.  I have no reason to doubt her since I'm sure the original intent of the show was to have Green Arrow and Black Canary fighting together.

Tina will probably be someone's love interest but if they're smart, they'll wait to see if the character jells and who she jells with. I still think Ray/Laurel had potential.  There's no need to put her with someone right away -- Felicity didn't have an romantic teases till Barry in s2 and finally got a boyfriend in Ray in s3.

1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I meant they are baiting the fans of KC's version of the BC. They showed her alive and well at the end of the MSF, SA shared a video of the reactions to her appearance then answered to a fan that he would like to have BC back because of her importance. That's not a good way to pave the way for another actress to take her place IMO.

They are so clueless, I suspect they didn't realize it was baiting.  Laurel says "don't let me be the last Black Canary", Black Siren shows up and is the anti-Laurel, they get rid of Black Siren and bring on a new Black Canary.

I think the biggest mistake was having it come right on the heels of Oliver and Sara saying goodbye to Laurel in the dream world.  They should have let it rest for a few episodes, maybe have the Black Siren escape on The Flash so people know it's not the Black Canary. Bringing KC back the very next episode gives the impression that the actor is back for good, especially with SA and AK talking about how important the Black Canary is in terms of the comic book lore.

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

IF Tina is the new BC (and I know that's still a big IF), I guess I'll just never understand why "Tina Boland" can have that name, and "Sara Lance" is just not allowed to.  Or why, come to that, they killed off Laurel if having a BC on the show is so absolutely vital.  I mean, I couldn't stand Laurel, but replacing her like this just makes it look like they were getting rid of Laurel/KC, if they're so eager to bring on a new and different BC.

The problem now is that they can't afford to lose Caity Lotz from LoT. Yes, Victor Garber, Brandon Routh and Dominic Purcell are important but CL IMO  holds the show together.  Maybe Vixen will be able to in the future but she's too new and the historian (whatever his name is) is not winning popularity contests.

I suspect that if LoT had not  happened, Sara would have returned to Arrow and taken up the Black Canary role in it.  It certainly would have been easier for the EPs that way.

ETA:  I wasn't thrilled with the lunge but I always hate it when shows throw in ships just to stall the OTP because they have no idea how to write relationship (hello Ray, hello Isabel, hello Mayo, hello Susan).  What I didn't like was that 2B became the Oliver/Sara show not just in the flashbacks as it was in 2A but in the present too and Diggle and Felicity got pushed into the closet.  That's on the poor writing.

Edited December 11, 2016 by statsgirl

[Midnight Lullaby]

25 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I doubt she had it in her contract that she would become Black Canary so much so that she would be able to force them to do it and give her an arc dealing with it when they could've just put her in costume and killed her off within seconds of doing so.

I'm surprised that KC wouldn't have it in her contract that no one could play BC on Arrow besides her.

Not force them but make it convenient for them to humor her. That's why I said that maybe if CL's BC had a huge reaction they might have kept her as BC. But since she didn't why not try with KC saving them all potential troubles?

[Starfish35]

Quote

The problem now is that they can't afford to lose Caity Lotz from LoT. Yes, Victor Garber, Brandon Routh and Dominic Purcell are important but CL IMO  holds the show together.  Maybe Vixen will be able to in the future but she's too new and the historian (whatever his name is) is not winning popularity contests.

I suspect that if LoT had not  happened, Sara would have returned to Arrow and taken up the Black Canary role in it.  It certainly would have been easier for the EPs that way.

I wasn't suggesting that Sara leave LoT.  But I would like to know why she can't be the BC on that show, leading her own team.   Is there some sort of mandate that Arrow must have a BC?  I don't get that, at all. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Starfish35

[Primal Slayer]

If they didn't care the first time about making her BC, they wouldnt waste their time humoring her and wasting their time any further. It's as funny to hear as it is Stephen/Emily having an on-going affair with one another.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

If they didn't care the first time about making her BC, they wouldnt waste their time humoring her and wasting their time any further. It's as funny to hear as it is Stephen/Emily having an on-going affair with one another.

I hope you realize how wrong of a comparison this is.

[calliope1975]

59 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Do we know more about this? Because just yesterday someone casually mentioned to me that back in S2 KC filed a complaint with the SAG about the show intending to give BC to CL, like this was something people knew. I had never heard anything about it. But if true -- it explains EVERYTHING.

SAG-AFTRA bargains minimums for all actors (rates and working conditions.) Anything outside of that would be negotiated by agents. Guranteeing an actor a specific role is DEFINITELY outside of SAG's purview. Actors and their representatives have complained to SAG before if those contracts are breached, but if it's an overscale agreement with special terms, they are typically handled outside of SAG. I don't know anything about KC's particular situation; that's just been my experience.  

Edited December 11, 2016 by calliope1975

[tangerine95]

Yeah I don't get why BC has to be on arrow but they seem to think she does. Maybe they think Sara is successful as WC and want BC to be a successful character too. I mean they are all about pushing as many masks as possible into the DCTV universe so maybe 2 canaries is better for them lol

[Velocity23]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

If they didn't care the first time about making her BC, they wouldnt waste their time humoring her and wasting their time any further. It's as funny to hear as it is Stephen/Emily having an on-going affair with one another.

Well blackmail is a fine thing. Katie is an expert. 

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, Midnight Lullaby said:

I hope you realize how wrong of a comparison this is.

Meh, both are ridiculous to me. Its good fanfic though.

1 minute ago, Velocity23 said:

Well blackmail is a fine thing. Katie is an expert. 

Can't argue against a good inside source.

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

SAG-AFTRA bargains minimums for all actors (rates and working conditions.) Anything outside of that would be negotiated by agents. Guranteeing an actor a specific role is DEFINITELY outside of SAG's purview. Actors and their representatives have complained to SAG before if those are breached, but if it's an overscale agreement with special terms, they are typically handled outside of SAG. I don't know anything about KC's particular situation; that's just been my experience.  

Thank you! I was hoping you would shed some light here. I figured SAG can't do much about making sure actors get promised roles, or anything like that. But KC probably could have a working conditions complaint on her hands. The show she was hired to co-lead hired two other female actresses, and put her in the drug-addict storyline corner.

[tangerine95]

I don't think its that crazy to think there was some mess bts just from looking at stuff that happened on the show. I feel like when a show hires an actress as female lead then realizes she isn't working in the role, cuts down her screentime and storylines in the next season and replaces her in two huge aspects of the role and gives it to other characters and eventually kills the character off, there has to be some drama about it bts. And its not like stuff like that never happens in the bussines

Edited December 11, 2016 by tangerine95

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

Meh, both are ridiculous to me. Its good fanfic though.

Yeah thinking two actors, one of them married, are having an affair because they look good together and thinking of reasons to justify the EPs completely changing their tune on Sara being the BC and going with LL is totally the same. Sure thing.

[dtissagirl]

8 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Yeah I don't get why BC has to be on arrow but they seem to think she does. Maybe they think Sara is successful as WC and want BC to be a successful character too. I mean they are all about pushing as many masks as possible into the DCTV universe so maybe 2 canaries is better for them lol

I wonder if it's not something more simple -- like Caity just doesn't wanna touch that ish again. After the shitty way it went the first time.

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yeah thinking two actors, one of them married, are having an affair because they look good together and thinking of reasons to justify the EPs completely changing their tune on Sara being the BC and going with LL is totally the same. Sure thing.

An actress who has to blackmail her way through a show because she is such a "horrible" person and thinking 2 actors are sleeping together, all BTS antics, that's all it boils down to.