Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BkWurm1]

I don't think 505 is going to be awful, but I don't think it's going to end with them getting back together so I'm braced for seeing them again repeat that, nope, they are not together and that's not something I'm looking forward to even if I'm well aware of it.  Plus it's likely that it will then trigger Oliver to go off and get a love interest of his own and it's bad enough having to ignore the nearly not there Mayo but whoever Oliver "dates" is automatically going to get more screen time.  So 505 could have something really positive in it, but it's not going to IMO change anything on screen in what I'd consider a positive way, at least not for a while.  

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, fangirlforever320 said:

I can agree with this. I meant major story beats aren't usually changed, but other things are added in. Though I do believe the plan all along was to show the flashforward in 4x10. They knew they "played out" Felicity being in the grave by almost having her die at the end of 4x09 and she was an easy elimination. I do believe Taiana's status as flashback love-interest was severely cut back due to fan reaction in season 4, so there IS that. But I also happen to think they weren't wild about the flashback love interest storyline to begin with and it was only network pressure that caused them to include it in the first place. I think for certain story points they WANT to push through on, there's not much that can dissuade them from doing it, especially if it's already written and filmed. 

I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my post. 

It's no problem, I was just under the impression that you thought that nothing was ever changed, to which I disagreed.

Idk, to me, extending Olicity's reunion to beyond the end of 423 is a major story beat (not that I know for sure if they were ever supposed to get back together in the first place, but I believe that the plan was to have them a lot closer than they ended up being once written/filmed/edited), but beyond that I basically agree. The only other thing that I would argue in that regard is that they change major story beats on their own (Malcolm being Thea's father, Olicity in general, SmoaknLance to an extent), but that's not really related to writing from viewer reactions.

My only argument to this is that there is still wiggle room when it comes to editing and network control. For instance, if at some point around 501 reactions, fancy numbers/statistics told the network that Olicity would not bring them money any more (or even makes them lose money), the network can tell the writers to stop writing towards them. Part of major plots would change for future episodes not written (no reconciliation, bringing on other love interests, not getting rid of new ones established), but there is still some things they can do to go back the things they've already done for 502-509 even though they were all in different points in their schedules. 509 could be re-written (to a smaller extent, such as adding 1-2 scenes to payoff later in 5b), 506-507 can have 1-2 reshoots to also payoff later, 502-505 can be edited away from anything that highlights Oliver and Felicity's relationship. Even lines could be easily cut from 502-505 that could greatly diminish the relationship that they have now (cut Felicity's "You never mentioned your time in Russia," cut her facial reactions to Oliver being a leader, cut Oliver asking Felicity if she's ok in 502, cut Oliver coming to Felicity's defense against Rory, cut the initial exchange between Oliver and Felicity at the end of 504 and jump straight to saying that they have to save Wild Dog). Small changes like that can have large impact, even though they were already written and filmed a different way.

It's possibly what may have happened with the BMD (there could have been more scenes/lines/mentions of the plot besides that one in 412 that were edited out, but we'll never know).

[fangirlforever320]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

It's no problem, I was just under the impression that you thought that nothing was ever changed, to which I disagreed.

Idk, to me, extending Olicity's reunion to beyond the end of 423 is a major story beat (not that I know for sure if they were ever supposed to get back together in the first place, but I believe that the plan was to have them a lot closer than they ended up being once written/filmed/edited), but beyond that I basically agree. The only other thing that I would argue in that regard is that they change major story beats on their own (Malcolm being Thea's father, Olicity in general, SmoaknLance to an extent), but that's not really related to writing from viewer reactions.

My only argument to this is that there is still wiggle room when it comes to editing and network control. For instance, if at some point around 501 reactions, fancy numbers/statistics told the network that Olicity would not bring them money any more (or even makes them lose money), the network can tell the writers to stop writing towards them. Part of major plots would change for future episodes not written (no reconciliation, bringing on other love interests, not getting rid of new ones established), but there is still some things they can do to go back the things they've already done for 502-509 even though they were all in different points in their schedules. 509 could be re-written (to a smaller extent, such as adding 1-2 scenes to payoff later in 5b), 506-507 can have 1-2 reshoots to also payoff later, 502-505 can be edited away from anything that highlights Oliver and Felicity's relationship. Even lines could be easily cut from 502-505 that could greatly diminish the relationship that they have now (cut Felicity's "You never mentioned your time in Russia," cut her facial reactions to Oliver being a leader, cut Oliver asking Felicity if she's ok in 502, cut Oliver coming to Felicity's defense against Rory, cut the initial exchange between Oliver and Felicity at the end of 504 and jump straight to saying that they have to save Wild Dog). Small changes like that can have large impact, even though they were already written and filmed a different way.

It's possibly what may have happened with the BMD (there could have been more scenes/lines/mentions of the plot besides that one in 412 that were edited out, but we'll never know).

I'm pretty glad they pushed the reunion, to be honest. I would rather they take the time with this even if it means some fans are left feeling unsure. I felt the resolution in s3 was too rushed and I didn't want to see that happen again (nor did I want a reunion over the summer where we wouldn't see it). Then again, I'm an anomaly... an Olicity shipper who doesn't really mind Felicity's boyfriend being a thing and won't mind if/when Oliver dates/kisses/sleeps with someone. I understand that's not exactly common amongst Olicity fans. 

I don't deny there is wiggle room, I would just wonder if they want to use it to change their original plan. I think the original plan all along is to lay little Olicity nuggets along the road to reunion later in the season. Of course I don't know that for a fact, but everything I've heard till now leads me to believe it's the case. 

[spartan]

ratings  are low  since the death of laurel lance, be honest,  Stop making up stories

[LeighAn]

Actually Arrow got its biggest rating hit in 4x16 when it reached its first series low and it has had a steadily downward decline since then. Whether thats due to the Olicity breakup, spoilers that confirmed LL dying, lack of promotion or general show fatigue that break between 4x15 and 4x16 saw the first signficant drop in veiwers which dropped again after 4x19. 

[looptab]

2 hours ago, spartan said:

ratings  are low  since the death of laurel lance, be honest,  Stop making up stories

I shouldn't bite, but I will. Dear Spartan, could you please refrain from telling other people on these board what to do or not to do? ThX.

[smoaksmichaelas]

8 hours ago, EmilyBettFan said:

Just give us another steamy Olicity sex scene when they get together because that sure as hell would get ratings back up! 

Not really. I think people are done. I don't think they'll ever get those viewers back. 

[quarks]

3 hours ago, spartan said:

ratings  are low  since the death of laurel lance, be honest,  Stop making up stories

Spartan, we discussed this over on the ratings thread. The big drops in ratings/viewers last year were not associated with Laurel, but with Oliver/Felicity breakups (real and potential) and the standard drop after the Arrow/Flash crossover episode. The numbers stayed steady right after Laurel's death, slipped only slightly after that, and then fell again after "Schism" and the summer hiatus, when Arrow announced that Laurel would be returning in 501 and Felicity and Oliver would still be broken up.

The only ratings spike - a small one - since the Oliver/Felicity breakup in "Taken" was for the Felicity-centric "Beacon of Hope." KC's appearance as Black Siren on Flash stayed steady in the ratings and dropped slightly in viewers, ending up in the bottom third of numbers for Flash's second season.

For what it's worth, the most consistent fan complaints about last season were all aimed at the flashbacks. By what I don't think is coincidence at all, the flashbacks have been among the most significantly retooled parts of Arrow this season so far, and where Arrow has decided to place its most famous guest star of this season, suggesting that Berlanti, at least, may be blaming the drops at least partly on the flashbacks, and not just on present day plots.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, smoaksmichaelas said:

Not really. I think people are done. I don't think they'll ever get those viewers back. 

I agree. I think the majority of people that stopped watching aren't coming back whatever they decide to do with the show. A Olicity sex scene though would create a lot of social media buzz so I'd say go for it! (I'm not saying it for selfish purposes, not at all, LOL)

[tv echo]

This isn't really spoilery, except for Brian Ford Sullivan's involvement in 510, so posting here...

[dtissagirl]

I tracked this tweet down because this is the person who's been building predicting models for the Arrow ratings on Tumblr:

Winning BACK viewers is always and forever a dumbass strategy, it doesn't even matter what they use to try and lure people back. Ships, masks, very special guests, dead people, etc. The only thing that gets Arrow extra viewers is crossovers, and those viewers are temporary.

[Cleanqueen]

At this point I don't think the show will get a lot of viewers back but I do think they have the potential to reach 0.8-0.9 demo again with the right marketing and promotion. The reason SPN got that high premiere was definitely due to the EW cover, but I doubt anyone over at the CW wants to give arrow any promotion. I mean where is our promo stills for this weeks episode?

[quarks]

3 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I tracked this tweet down because this is the person who's been building predicting models for the Arrow ratings on Tumblr:

Winning BACK viewers is always and forever a dumbass strategy, it doesn't even matter what they use to try and lure people back. Ships, masks, very special guests, dead people, etc. The only thing that gets Arrow extra viewers is crossovers, and those viewers are temporary.

Responded in Behind the Scenes thread (before I realized that I was interrupting a conversation there, whoops), because my answer isn't spoilery.

[Sunshine]

In the last 3 episodes David Ramsey has received less than 5 minutes of screen time. I believe it was less than 30 seconds in the premiere.  I have to wonder if this is what is going to happen to Emily 's after 5.05 once Oliver moves on.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

Responded in Behind the Scenes thread (before I realized that I was interrupting a conversation there, whoops), because my answer isn't spoilery.

It was a welcome interruption.  The conversation was very dead horse-ish.  

[quarks]

18 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

In the last 3 episodes David Ramsey has received less than 5 minutes of screen time. I believe it was less than 30 seconds in the premiere.  I have to wonder if this is what is going to happen to Emily 's after 5.05 once Oliver moves on.

Even if he sleeps with the reporter, which is still just mostly spec at this stage, Oliver might not be moving on. 

[BkWurm1]

16 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

In the last 3 episodes David Ramsey has received less than 5 minutes of screen time. I believe it was less than 30 seconds in the premiere.  I have to wonder if this is what is going to happen to Emily 's after 5.05 once Oliver moves on.

She gets at least one episode a year where she usually has reduced screen time but otherwise I think Felicity is just too useful a character for other reasons to ever really sideline her.  

[lemotomato]

19 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

In the last 3 episodes David Ramsey has received less than 5 minutes of screen time. I believe it was less than 30 seconds in the premiere.  I have to wonder if this is what is going to happen to Emily 's after 5.05 once Oliver moves on.

I don't quite see how the two are related. Also, Felicity hasn't been treated as a LI this season anyway, and has gotten plenty of screentime. So I don't know how Oliver allegedly moving on would affect her role?

[dtissagirl]

I figure Diggle will start having more screentime because he won't be sequestered in C-plot anymore. The boobs' screentime is high, but most of their scenes has been with Oliver and/or Felicity. Since Wild Dog will get Diggle as his Yoda, they'll share screentime.

[Morrigan2575]

35 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

In the last 3 episodes David Ramsey has received less than 5 minutes of screen time. I believe it was less than 30 seconds in the premiere.  I have to wonder if this is what is going to happen to Emily 's after 5.05 once Oliver moves on.

In S4 episodes 1-15, when Olicity were a couple. Felicity's average screentime was 12.9 minutes per episode. In S4 episodes 16-23 when Olcity were broken up, Felicity's average screentime was 13.5 minutes per episode. 

In S5 episodes 1-4, Felicity's average screentime has been 11.4 minutes per episode. That is mostly due to her low screentime in 501 (7.25 minutes). However, 502-504  put her average at 12.8 minutes per episode which is almost exactly what she had in 401-415.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[way2interested]

Regarding that new pic in Spoilers Only, so Felicity is in a scene with Prometheus in 510?

Edited October 31, 2016 by way2interested

[Morrigan2575]

Huh. When I first looked at it, I assumed it was Green Arrow with a Sword. If it's Prometheus, that certainly makes it more interesting

[apinknightmare]

I think it's Prometheus. Does Oliver have that metal on the front of his suite like Prometheus does?

[way2interested]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

I think it's Prometheus. Does Oliver have that metal on the front of his suite like Prometheus does?

Oliver's is more near his his chest plate, where Prometheus' is along his abdomen, or at least that's what it looks like to me. Plus, sword, so I'm thinking Prometheus.

[Velocity23]

The person in the suit gives me SA vibes ...

[Morrigan2575]

Oh how sad, now we can't even tell our Villains from our heroes. They really need to work on costuming

[dtissagirl]

I don't think I can tell Prometheus apart from Ragman either.

[Belinea]

Maybe I just expected more but could these promo pictures be anymore generic... The only thing I see is that once again someone knows Oliver's secret right away. Why doesn't he just tell everyone...

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Belinea said:

Maybe I just expected more but could these promo pictures be anymore generic... The only thing I see is that once again someone knows Oliver's secret right away. Why doesn't he just tell everyone...

Human Target is an "old friend" of Oliver's. 

[Thundercatmary]

Everyone's an old friend lately :p

[Belinea]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Human Target is an "old friend" of Oliver's. 

Isn't it awesome to have such dear friends which you never mentioned ever before that conveniently show up when the plot requires them too?

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Belinea said:

Isn't it awesome to have such dear friends which you never mentioned ever before that conveniently show up when the plot requires them too?

Considering that one is willing to take a couple of gunshots for him, I say yes, haha

[Belinea]

The friendship is probably a strong bond that grew because of the distance...

Also I don't get what the point of this storyline is. Does it have a point? 

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/793175223612772352?lang=de

[Morrigan2575]

Because they wanted Connor Hawke...geeze don't you get their genius?! They got rid of a puny female and replaced her with a future hero! ??

Edited October 31, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[calliope1975]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Because they wanted Connor Hawks...geeze don't you get their genius?! They got rid of a puny female and replaced her with a future hero! ??

A sign posted at MG's desk, I bet.

I sure am glad Oliver has all these never mentioned until needed by plot friends in the DC universe. Can I get Zatanna next? Or just bring back that shaman lady from last year; I liked her.

[tangerine95]

That's so dumb to me tho, they could have just given Digg another kid at some point. They can't really do anything superhero like with a 3 year old anyway so it seems like it's just done for name dropping purposes, connecting arrow to LoT and so they can say flashpoint changed something. 

[Starfish35]

Well it's particularly dumb because the Connor Hawke (John Jr) on LoT was in no way old enough to be Sara's age.  (Baby Sara would have been 31 in 2046 if I'm counting right).

Edited October 31, 2016 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

I'll never stop LOLing that adult!Sara died, and then Dig went to her creepy secret funeral and probs said, "well, sucks to be Sara, but I'm naming my kid after myself, YO!"

[Morrigan2575]

7 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

That's so dumb to me tho, they could have just given Digg another kid at some point. They can't really do anything superhero like with a 3 year old anyway so it seems like it's just done for name dropping purposes, connecting arrow to LoT and so they can say flashpoint changed something. 

My guess money and time/ease. If they go with 2 kids then they have to pay 2 kids and deal with wrangling 2 kids on set, etc. 

And while I dount the kids made much, it is a pain to have to film around them. So from an EP perspective it probably made a ton more sense to gender swap instead of adding another kid.

[dtissagirl]

I figure these morons just rationalized that this is a pretty big change stamped with a "shocker!" and everything, but one that doesn't affect the storyline in anyway.

[Morrigan2575]

There's that too. It's a shocker that gets them something and costs them nothing (from their perspective)

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

At this point I don't think the show will get a lot of viewers back but I do think they have the potential to reach 0.8-0.9 demo again with the right marketing and promotion. The reason SPN got that high premiere was definitely due to the EW cover, but I doubt anyone over at the CW wants to give arrow any promotion. I mean where is our promo stills for this weeks episode?

I don't think the promotion had any net effect on the premier ratings for SPN. It typically premieres well and falls off.  From TVSeriesFinale
S12 - .083
S11 - .086
S10 - 1.1
S9  - 1.2 

Edited October 31, 2016 by catrox14

[bijoux]

I'm super tired, so I may be seeing things, but does Felicity's dress in the promo photos have a dozen cut outs over her chest? And they're not lined? Has she raided Donna's closet? 

[Chaser]

It does. They aren't lined but she is wearing something white/cream underneath. I like it.

My question tho is them including the photo of Human Target with blood stains on his shirt. Spoiler alert guys, Oliver doesn't get shot!

Edited October 31, 2016 by Chaser

[catrox14]

I'm focused on the legs of the person in the Promotheus suit. Those look like SA's legs. SA is slightly bowlegged, he has kind of skinny calves and ankles. I think it's Oliver from a different earth.  I would love for it to be Tommy but I don't think it is.  The legs don't look like Roy's either. 

[Morrigan2575]

You think Prometheus is Evil Oliver all along or just for this episode?

[thegirlsleuth]

I noticed the physical resemblance, too, with SA's skinny calves.  Just can't figure out how Oliver could have "created" Prometheus in the first season that doesn't involve a different earth.

[Chaser]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm focused on the legs of the person in the Promotheus suit. Those look like SA's legs. SA is slightly bowlegged, he has kind of skinny calves and ankles. I think it's Oliver from a different earth.  I would love for it to be Tommy but I don't think it is.  The legs don't look like Roy's either. 

I feel this is a "You know you watch Supernatural when" moment. Lol - Bowlegged Dean.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Belinea said:

Isn't it awesome to have such dear friends which you never mentioned ever before that conveniently show up when the plot requires them too?

Think he'll be in the flashback too like Constantine?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

I feel this is a "You know you watch Supernatural when" moment. Lol - Bowlegged Dean.

Ha! No lie, I did think about Jensen but aside from that never happening his legs are much more bowlegged LOL

4 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I noticed the physical resemblance, too, with SA's skinny calves.  Just can't figure out how Oliver could have "created" Prometheus in the first season that doesn't involve a different earth.

#BlameBarry