Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Straight shooter/good guy literally. And also a goober. 

Yep. And also there's that whole boring snore worthy conflict of Felicity being on Team Arrow while dating a cop. ZZzzzzzzzzz

[Mellowyellow]

My theory is that BF will be the cop. He will die at the end of season 5. Felicity will feel guilty about his death beginning of season 6, can't be with Oliver and taaaaa daaaaa there's your reason to stall Olicity in both seasons 5 and 6. Awesome!

[tv echo]

17 hours ago, way2interested said:

So is the bf going to be Tyler Ritter's character then after all, even though they still never mentioned it? Did anything say which episode he was supposed to appear in, or was he supposed to show up in 502 like the newbies?

 

12 hours ago, Angel12d said:

*whispers* It's gonna be the cop.

He's not Ray but he'll just be another bland slice of white bread/jar of mayo.

I agree.  But Felicity still has to visit The Flash in week 2.  So maybe she's dating Barry in the Flashpoint AU and then when things are changed back, she's now dating this new recurring character of Detective Malone (Tyler Ritter).*

(*I keep thinking of Demming from Castle).

We don't know yet which episode Tyler Ritter will debut in, but he was in the Arrow production offices on Jul. 12th.  There's also a police corruption story happening this season, so if he's a good cop, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up a casualty.

I also agree with those who say that WM's TVLine comments ("And the one thing [Felicity] has in this life is the bunker") contradict her GATV comments about Felicity having a new boyfriend.

Edited August 13, 2016 by tv echo

[Sunshine]

This show likes to pick up dangling story line threads.  Felicity goes to see Barry in Flash 3.02.  Maybe he's the boyfriend ("straight shooter"), maybe he's not.  Perhaps Barry comes clean about everything regarding his ability to reset time and its consequences.  This includes what happened in last year's crossover.  Barry said last year after Felicity became paralyzed that she wasn't returning his calls.  As soon as Felicity gave Oliver back the ring her ability to walk was restored.  I took this as time resetting itself but it was never addressed.  This doesn't negate Oliver choosing to lie to her about BM.  It does make her aware that this time it was based on him being afraid of losing her because Barry told Oliver it looked like they broke up.  Maybe this leads to some sort of thawing and discussion in 5.05 followed by a slow rebuild.     

[Guest]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I agree.  But Felicity still has to visit The Flash in week 2.  So maybe she's dating Barry in the Flashpoint AU and then when things are changed back, she's now dating this new recurring character of Detective Malone (Tyler Ritter).*

(*I keep thinking of Demming from Castle).

I also agree with those who say that WM's TVLine comments ("And the one thing [Felicity] has in this life is the bunker") contradict her GATV comments about Felicity having a new boyfriend.

I do think the way they've spoken about this new boyfriend is very strange. Ray was announced as a love interest for Felicity, we all knew it was happening in s3 and it was written to be a big thing, supposedly. But we had no clue about the boyfriend until SA told a fan at HVFF and then I'm pretty sure it was barely mentioned at SDCC until TV Line asked the question directly, and that was only because the guy from TV Line had heard the rumor at the HVFF con. So it does make me wonder if it's not even going to be a big deal because it's either Barry or flashpoint related. But then other things contradict that too. IDK.

The whole thing is weird. From a story/character perspective of it making no sense and them not announcing any of the actors as the new love interest, which they usually do. I don't know why they'd suddenly be any different. But it's happening so... 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd really like some different spoilers though because there's only so much I can complain about this demon storyline. LOL.

[looptab]

56 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

As soon as Felicity gave Oliver back the ring her ability to walk was restored.  I took this as time resetting itself but it was never addressed.  

I'd love if what you said were the reason for that awful moment. Ugh.

[tangerine95]

They did set up the time travel in the crossover having consequences imo.And AK gave an interview talking that.I remember it made me think LL dying will be connected to time travel from the crossover.They even had Oliver mention thinking the time travel was why Felicity got hurt and then they dropped it and it wasn't mentioned again.Maybe because they decided to go with flashpoint and show the consequences of that in the other shows instead. 

[Sunshine]

At the beginning of 4.15 Paul (husband of Curtis and physical therapist) tells Felicity and Oliver that healing takes time.  She has the bio-stimulant implanted but the moment she gives the ring back is the exact moment she can walk.  Coincidence? Maybe.  If time hadn't been changed there wouldn't have been an engagement in 4.09 whether Felicity and Oliver broke up or not. I think it was left ambiguous and Barry jumped to one conclusion.  I think 4.10-4.14 & 4.16 were to show us what they meant to each other with the EPs & writers knowing they were breaking them up for a while (Network demand?). 4.15 showed us Felicity would/could do the job in spite of her heartache.  

I agree that something about the BF seems off.  It could be Barry or a day player* because he's not important to the story other than providing a reason for O & F to not have resolved anything since 4.23.  If he is a new character - the detective - I think it's a horrible introduction.  

It's easy to think Felicity has a new boyfriend simply as a reason for Oliver to date.  How is Oliver supposed to save the city as Green Arrow, conduct new vigilante boot camp, and become a non-garbage mayor and still have time to "date"?   Yeah, I know bad writing.  His greatest love is Star City.  I'm trying to keep an open mind. A slow rebuild could take all season or longer but they could do it without real animate 3rd parties.  I also wonder if they are working on a slow rebuild for Team Arrow (Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Thea & Quentin).

*ER (Poppy) liked a photo of Ryan Williams (her husband I think) that someone captioned "Felicity's boyfriend".  It doesn't necessarily mean anything. She might have just liked it because it was her guy. He is an actor and was supposedly on the Arrow set for at least a day. (Sorry I don't remember where I saw all this so I can't source.) Could be for flashbacks.

[statsgirl]

14 hours ago, Angel12d said:

You know who else we haven't heard anything about? Thea. Although after the last two seasons I've lost the ability to care. They need to keep her away from Malcolm and maybe she'll have a chance.

Thea is going to be working in the mayor's office doing all the work because Oliver is such a garbage mayor.  Yeah, it looks like they still don't care about Thea.

I have no idea how Flashpoint is going to affect Arrow but I feel 98% sure I'm going to hate it.

Demming was such a waste of time on Castle, and I say that having been excited about the actor being cast. Dr. Motorcycle Boy was even worse. If writers have to cast a stall ship, why can't they write it as a character that adds something to the show?

On the other hand, I'm afraid the boyfriend is going to be the new cop and the "he's a straight-shooter" is going to be the set-up for him becoming the Big Bad that Oliver created in season 1, thus making her look like an idiot for trusting him.

It's already bad enough that she even has a boyfriend because their argument in  5x01 about Oliver needing to bring on more help in the lair is going to make her look like a bitter ex who can't let go the man she broke up with.

15 hours ago, way2interested said:

They did emphasize the rock and a hard place thing for Oliver, and only one writer really pushed the chemistry thing between them, which is why I thought that they didn't really expect people to buy into the chemistry. They didn't expect people to vehemently be against Oliver's reasoning not just for hater reasons is what I saw. They were going for audiences to feel conflicted at the situation instead of actually liking what was going on or being angry and disappointed at Oliver/the plot.

You're right. MG tried to argue that but it was so thin, you could put a hole in it just by breathing on it.

I wonder if that's the reason they're not talking about Felicity's new boyfriend, because they already know that unless it's Barry, it's going to be terrible.

If Tyler Ritter started working on Arrow in July, I wonder why there is nothing teased about his character at all.

[TwistedandBored]

I think the writers heard stop making Olicity so angsty from both fans and critics and decided to increase the angsty level by giving each one a different love interest. Kill me. 

[Sunshine]

Re: Tyler Ritter.  He's there to clean up the streets of Star City along with Lt Pike.  We haven't heard anything about Pike either although somewhere there was a mention of corruption in the police department.  He could be the boyfriend or he could just be a detective.  Lots of street crime means lots of police activity.  We know Lance isn't being reinstated but we don't have any real details on him either.

We haven't seen the fight so how can we assume Felicity comes off as a bitter-ex because she has a boyfriend?  Oliver has 2 jobs, crime is rampant.  Sometimes you need help and you can't just wait for the original team to show up.  Especially when one is in the Army and stationed overseas. 

[statsgirl]

If Felicity got "how dare she, it's none of her business" over William, I'm worried that trying to tell Oliver that he needs more help, something that no one would bat an eye if Diggle said, is going to get her told to mind her own business because she walked out on him.

Edited August 13, 2016 by statsgirl

[Sunshine]

Got it.  When Felicity opposes Oliver she is always going to be in the wrong to some viewers.  I can see that happening because it always happens. 

[Velocity23]

There seems to be two different storylines going on with Felicity that dont mash together.

1. The boyfriend part ... where she apparently is happy

2. And then the Felicity who only has the bunker.

So i would think that one part is connected to the Flashpoint and might change as soon as Felicity visits the Flash and Barry fixes the timeline.

[apinknightmare]

That would make WM's "this life" comment make sense. 

[Morrigan2575]

On 8/12/2016 at 4:30 PM, Starfish35 said:

Stupid question - I'm sorry.  But I don't watch Game of Thrones, so I don't have a reference point for this.  Could someone explain what this means?

Does that mean more of that stupid videogame-type action like 407 last year?  Because I hated that.

That's a good theory. I also wondered if both the Bunker and Boyfriend were direct results of her guilt/emotional reaction to Havenrock. Basically she's hiding in her work.and a relationship pretending everything is fine while she's falling apart inside?

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

There seems to be two different storylines going on with Felicity that dont mash together.

1. The boyfriend part ... where she apparently is happy

2. And then the Felicity who only has the bunker.

So i would think that one part is connected to the Flashpoint and might change as soon as Felicity visits the Flash and Barry fixes the timeline.

Interesting. I'm not sure which version I want to be lasting. I want Felicity to be happy, but if Olicity is endgame, and after the almost marriage, I have no desire to watch any boyfriend that's not Oliver. But, do I want to watch a sad Felicity who's new love is the bunker? Will she upgrade the mattress situation down there? Bring in a new fern? I was at a good place at the end of S4. Mostly. Have I mentioned that Barry is The Worst?

[Guest]

Give me sad Felicity throwing herself into work in the bunker and trying to hide how sad she is rather than sexing up some new dude. At least that would make sense. Thanks muchly!

Edited August 13, 2016 by Guest

[statsgirl]

Felicity being sad in the bunker with PTSD over her actions is more character-consistent than Felicity trying to forget what she did by sexing up a new boyfriend.  That's an Ollie maneuver.

If they want me to believe Oliver and Felicity are OTP, she can't be moving on to someone else when she's been wounded.  When you're hurt, you want to be with the ones you love, not random strangers who don't know who you are.

Edited August 14, 2016 by statsgirl

[tv echo]

18 hours ago, Sunshine said:

*ER (Poppy) liked a photo of Ryan Williams (her husband I think) that someone captioned "Felicity's boyfriend".  It doesn't necessarily mean anything. She might have just liked it because it was her guy. He is an actor and was supposedly on the Arrow set for at least a day. (Sorry I don't remember where I saw all this so I can't source.) Could be for flashbacks.

Ryan S. Williams' IMDB page lists an Arrow 501 credit (previous credits include Motive, Copper, Beauty and the Beast and Nikita)...
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3466475/

Quote

Arrow (TV Series) 
Lt. Conahan
- Legacy (2016) ... Lt. Conahan

I couldn't find his height, but from his demo reel below, he looks tall.  And I believe these are his twitter and facebook accounts (follows Elysia Rotaru and there's a follower called @TaianaIsMyQueen)...
https://twitter.com/ryslife
https://www.facebook.com/ryan.williams.169405

If so, then he looks more like the comics Green Arrow than SA...

Elysia Rotaru posted this video on youtube...
Ryan S Williams- Drama Reel Motive Copper Get Out Alive

Edited August 14, 2016 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Wait. Poppy RL husband is going to play Felicity's Boyfriend?  Hahahah. Well there you go...nothing to worry about, it'll probably end up on the cutting room floor or changed due to massive lack of chemistry.

[tv echo]

After watching his demo reel, I think Ryan Williams comes across as more genuine than BR and more mature than GG. He could be a serious threat to Olicity if he has on screen chemistry with EBR.

As for the lack of news announcements, it could be that the EPs wanted to surprise viewers and also not have viewers predisposed to dislike him, if he just appeared in 501 and we saw how he interacted with Felicity first.  

But maybe we're wrong and he isn't playing Felicity's new boyfriend at all, but just another SCPD cop.

Edited August 14, 2016 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Wait. This guy isn't "The Cop". The recurring Cop character is Tyler Ritter (just checked). So ER's hubby is probably a one off character. Right?

[quarks]

Ryan Murphy's resume suggests that he's a day player, and Arrow didn't announce that he's coming on board, so although several day players on Arrow have appeared in more than one episode, and one day player eventually became a regular, chances are good that whatever he's doing is fairly minor.

[tv echo]

Tyler Ritter is playing the recurring role of Detective Malone, a new addition to the SCPD. He was in the Arrow production offices on July 12.  Ritter also appeared in an instagram pic with James Bamford and Adrian Holmes that was posted by Holmes (who plays Lt. Frank Pike) on July 23 with a comment about a "night shoot". 

There has been no news announcement (as yet) about Ryan Williams or about who is playing Felicity's boyfriend.  This new speculation is based solely on @Sunshine's post above (about a pic of Ryan Williams being captioned "Felicity's boyfriend" and reportedly on the Arrow set for a day) and on Ryan Williams' IMDB page indicating that he's playing a Lt. Conahan in 501 of Arrow.

So, two different cops.  We don't know for sure if either, or neither, will be Felicity's boyfriend.

Edited August 14, 2016 by tv echo

[Password]

Blonde cop: I miss Eddie.

[statsgirl]

I hate that Fallsview commercial so much, but not as much as I hate the other Fallsview commercials.

Hey, I just saw that episode of Motive where he played the bar tender.  Did a decent job of it.  I stopped watching Copper in s2 when it got too violent but they did have good actors.

My optimism just went up about "Felicity's boyfriend".  If he's only there for one episode and then Flashpoint resets rather than him being Tyler Ritter's character, I can live with it.  (But I still hate Barry screwing up my show.)

[Sunshine]

No clue who the boyfriend is and I didn't know what role Ryan Williams was playing. I didn't check IMBD.  I was more amused by the idea that Poppy's RL husband was being speculated elsewhere to be Felicity's boyfriend.  The only new cop I knew of was Detective Malone.  I actually hate the idea of Felicity dating a cop because of her vigilante job.  Whoever she dates she would be living a lie with but if they find out it's twice as much drama especially if cops aren't on the side of vigilantes. 

I am hoping BF is Flashpoint related only.  There do seem to be 2 opposing narratives in Mericle's interview answers.  Burying herself in her work seems more in line with the Felicity Smoak I have seen.   I am thinking the BF isn't Barry because of the Iris stuff in Flash 3.03.  

[Ophanim]

*jumps in speculation about BF* ... I think BF is cop guy Malone (Tyler Ritter), my speculation based only on conclusion that he followed only EBR on twitter from the main cast, so thin ice speculation :) so ergo he maybe had scene only with her, see, my logic is pure.  I would like to be Barry, just for comedic reasons. Further on cop theory, detective Malone is police connection (Lance isn't in police anymore, is he?) so writers need someone in PD and I think there is good storytelling potential for Felicity (individually) and with team Arrow , and I am interested in that potential. We shall see... p.s. I think Tyler Ritter is cute :) so I am biased. 

[dtissagirl]

The Lieutenant part makes more sense at the Army scenes with Diggle, no? Isn't an LT a high rank in police, but a low rank in the Army?

Edited August 14, 2016 by dtissagirl

[TrueMyth]

If they really want to get crazypants with Flashpoint, can't her new boyfriend be some guy named... Sauliver who looks a lot like Oliver except with a goatee or something, and is, in fact, his previously unmentioned brother (a la Ray Palmer's brother)?  Played by Stephen Amell to save budget and casting stress, of course.  And then it all gets reversed when Barry fixes Flashpoint, but we still get some kind of cuddle scene between Stephen and Emily that the Olicity fandom can live on until they get around to fixing the ship again.  Go Saulicity!

*sigh*  But it's probably one of the other guys.

[JenMcSnark]

8 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

The Lieutenant part makes more sense at the Army scenes with Diggle, no? Isn't an LT a high rank in police, but a low rank in the Army?

Lieutenant is the lowest officer rank(s) in the Army, but still an officer.  There are 13 enlisted ranks below it, so it's not considered low.   Not sure about in police departments though. 

[looptab]

I just want to give kudos to all of you,  because I still can't for the life of me learn the new characters' names, or the actors', or who's who. I need to find catchy nicknames like #Poppy if I want to follow this season ?

Edited August 15, 2016 by looptab

[Password]

I reckon #PoppysHusband will trend. 

[kismet]

What is concerning for me is I see FS being marginalized like LL in s2. So consider me nervous that her working through her problems will be as thoroughly fleshed out like LLs alcholism & FSs paralysis. Basically a few splashy scenes to submit for PR with no substance behind it. 

And sadly Im not surprised that all they are talking about is her boyfriend thats all that should be important for a non-masked ex-LI? Why are people expecting more for a female character?*** It's a new season, not a new writers' room.

***- we & females deserve more, I just don't see it happening soon, sadly.

Edited August 15, 2016 by kismet

[Velocity23]

I am just laughing my ass off because i dont think Stephen was supposed to reveal this "spoiler" and they wanted to keep it a secret.

[Starfish35]

7 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

I am just laughing my ass off because i dont think Stephen was supposed to reveal this "spoiler" and they wanted to keep it a secret.

The Felicity's boyfriend spoiler?

[Thundercatmary]

I think it's possible Stephen purposely let that spoiler out.  I know personally I'm glad to know that ahead of time, even if it does really deflate my enthusiasm for the new season.

[Velocity23]

Quote

The Felicity's boyfriend spoiler?

Yes i think it was supposed to be a surprise for season premiere (also just plays into my belief that the bf is only 1-2 episodes deal) but TV Line was at the HVFF when the rumours about the bf were going around.

[BkWurm1]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 3:46 PM, Angel12d said:

I already dislike Felicity's boyfriend on the account that he exists so bye!

Yup. 

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:04 PM, Angel12d said:

FeliBunker. LOL. I ship it! 

Couldn't they have just given Felicity a friend...maybe even a female friend? Or maybe she could have spent more time with Thea?

I just don't understand how one of her first thoughts is going out and getting a boyfriend. She supposedly has PTSD from Havenrock and is a mess and is no longer with the love of her life and that's what she does?! Uh...okay. I hope they explain it better on the show because this is so dumb.

I actually have no problems with Olicity being apart for the season but new love interests is still baffling to me.

 

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:31 PM, Password said:

If this was any other show I would trust the writers to explain Felicity's issues with Havenrock and the reasoning behind the new boyfriend. But this is Arrow. They won't do it properly at all.

I hate that Felicity will have a boyfriend and I was clinging to the hope that it was Barry for a long time but that seems unlikely now and since I was forced to really think about it and I actually have come to believe that Felicity letting herself go out and get a boyfriend makes a lot of character sense. 

She set a precedent when she turned to Ray.  Oliver was being a huge idiot and had gone past just pushing her away to excluding her and making terrible choices so she convinced herself to go all in with Ray as a way in part to distract her and for a while she was happy.  Felicity seems to have perfected a live in the moment kind of reaction to life, it's what lets her make jokes when things are dire.  Like Oliver, she has a way of compartmentalizing. 

And right now from her point of view she has lost the chance of a relationship with the man that she loves - cause even if she no longer thinks Oliver CAN'T change, there's nothing so far for her to believe that he HAS changed or is even TRYING to change.  So even though it's her choice not to be with him, she is sort of back stuck in that place of either trying to wait and pine for Oliver to be a different person (which never works cause the only real change can come when Oliver makes those choices) or try to move on like she did with Ray. 

So her allowing a new relationship into her life even though she has these very strong feelings for Oliver isn't really out of character. 

Last time she was sort of in this place back at the start of season 3 (loving Oliver but not able to be with him) she tried to add something to her life that was outside the team and so she took that job with Palmer Tech to challenge and funnel her professional dreams into.  For now her professional life is as much a mess as anything personal and anyway she's focused on the Bunker and she's not looking for anything outside of that on a work or professional level but as committed as she is to their work, being there with Oliver like that, just the two of them had to be a real danger to her heart when she believes they can't be together. 

It's like we kept pointing out at the end of last season, they so often didn't act like they were broken up.  It would be so easy to slip back into old behaviors and patterns and why not, they are great together but unless Felicity can trust Oliver again not to break her heart like that,  she can't allow them to get any closer than they already are.  Which is already probably too close when it comes to keeping feelings in check.  

Her letting a boyfriend into her life solves a few problems for Felicity.  For one, it gives her that buffer between her and Oliver while allowing her to still be completely invested in saving the city.  She's with him so like last time when she was with Ray, she can let some of her guard around Oliver down. 

Allowing a boyfriend into her life and specifically a clueless one also gives her an outlet to live in the moment with someone that doesn't know anything about her troubles and guilt.

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 7:50 PM, statsgirl said:

Felicity being sad in the bunker with PTSD over her actions is more character-consistent than Felicity trying to forget what she did by sexing up a new boyfriend.  That's an Ollie maneuver.

If they want me to believe Oliver and Felicity are OTP, she can't be moving on to someone else when she's been wounded.  When you're hurt, you want to be with the ones you love, not random strangers who don't know who you are.

In the long run we need people to understand the big stuff in our life but in the short run being able to stop being that person with all that baggage and history for awhile can be a relief.  I have a friend that a month ago blew up her life but was out there dating almost right away and I know she's not emotionally ready and she knows it too but when I asked why, she explained it's the only place in her life where she can be a blank slate.  Dating is currently a place that is all outside of her real life and so she can just let go of her real ongoing issues for awhile.   And yes, she already has a new boyfriend. 

It's just about certainly fated to fail, but right now it's what she thinks she needs and I can see that same kind of thing being why Felicity started dating.  She's lost so much in her life (Diggle being a rock, Laurel, any future (in her current opinion) with Oliver) on top of the devastating guilt she'd be having over Havenrock, yeah, I can totally understand how she ended up with a boyfriend despite being focused on the Bunker.  Maybe she didn't even go looking for it.  Maybe it just fell into her lap but yeah, I can see why she'd let it happen. 

I suppose the part that makes it seem out of character is that for years after Cooper, she burrowed into the job.  Still we find out later that for a good part of that time she was probably wishing she could meet someone interested in her.  I know I assume that meant she also had to be interested in them and for those years she probably never really put herself out there or she was still lacking that kind of personal self confidence that would let her really take that kind of risk  but that changed when she started working for the Team. Felicity has changed from that girl that hid in the IT department. 

I don't really think that being in a relationship when she has so much trauma to deal with is a good choice in the long run,  but it's a reasonable choice that I think Felicity could make at that moment.  And again, I think it has a lot to do with how closely she works with Oliver, something she's not willing to give up even though it has to be impossibly hard. 

After she and Oliver broke up she was planning on burying herself in the good work she could do at Palmer Tech and there was no sign of any desire for a personal relationship and had that scenario continued, I would have been shocked if she started dating.  But in the current one, were she has her life once again so bound up with Oliver's, dating someone else really does IMO make sense from her standpoint.  

Doesn't mean I don't still hate it, but I don't think they've warped her characterization.

15 hours ago, Lidach said:

*jumps in speculation about BF* ... I think BF is cop guy Malone (Tyler Ritter), my speculation based only on conclusion that he followed only EBR on twitter from the main cast, so thin ice speculation :) so ergo he maybe had scene only with her, see, my logic is pure.  I would like to be Barry, just for comedic reasons. Further on cop theory, detective Malone is police connection (Lance isn't in police anymore, is he?) so writers need someone in PD and I think there is good storytelling potential for Felicity (individually) and with team Arrow , and I am interested in that potential. We shall see... p.s. I think Tyler Ritter is cute :) so I am biased. 

Felicity dating a cop lets them show she still has a type as well. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And right now from her point of view she has lost the chance of a relationship with the man that she loves - cause even if she no longer thinks Oliver CAN'T change, there's nothing so far for her to believe that he HAS changed or is even TRYING to change.  So even though it's her choice not to be with him, she is sort of back stuck in that place of either trying to wait and pine for Oliver to be a different person (which never works cause the only real change can come when Oliver makes those choices) or try to move on like she did with Ray.

This is the part where your very well reasoned response doesn't make sense to me.  Felicity's actions show that she hasn't given up on Oliver, so why would she date someone else?

She admitted to Oliver in the casino that she was too harsh when she broke it off with him (I think he has been trying to show her he's changed).  And then she told him that "no way" was he going to lose her as a partner in the lair.  Neither of those sound like she's given up on Oliver.

I think Felicity is self-aware enough to know that she hasn't given up on Oliver (I wouldn't say that if it were Oliver though) so to not only start dating but to have actually acquired a new relationship just doesn't compute for me. The only way I can understand it is if the episode is Flashpoint affected and Felicity was never with Oliver in that timeline.

[tv echo]

20 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

The Lieutenant part makes more sense at the Army scenes with Diggle, no? Isn't an LT a high rank in police, but a low rank in the Army?

That's a good point. I didn't even consider the military possibility but just assumed Lt. Conahan was a cop.

I'm also hoping that the boyfriend is something that's Flashpoint AU only.  Like maybe a reason why Oliver & Felicity didn't get together during the 5-month hiatus.  Since Barry did what he did in the spring, the Arrowverse has been living in this AU since May.

20 hours ago, Lidach said:

*jumps in speculation about BF* ... I think BF is cop guy Malone (Tyler Ritter), my speculation based only on conclusion that he followed only EBR on twitter from the main cast, so thin ice speculation :) so ergo he maybe had scene only with her, see, my logic is pure.  I would like to be Barry, just for comedic reasons. Further on cop theory, detective Malone is police connection (Lance isn't in police anymore, is he?) so writers need someone in PD and I think there is good storytelling potential for Felicity (individually) and with team Arrow , and I am interested in that potential. We shall see... p.s. I think Tyler Ritter is cute :) so I am biased. 

I agree that Malone is a good possibility.  FYI, Tyler Ritter did shoot a nighttime scene with Adrian Holmes (SCPD Lt. Pike) for 501 or 502:

ETA: Now that SDCC and TCA are over, I'm starting to organize all of the S5 spoilers that I've collected (for posting here).  There's a lot more material than you might expect.  Part of the problem is that there are a lot of variations on the same spoiler, with minor but sometimes significantly different nuances.  I'll first organize them by topic, so that we can figure out who's who and what's what.  Then when it gets closer to October, I'll organize them by episode.

Edited August 15, 2016 by tv echo

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

She admitted to Oliver in the casino that she was too harsh when she broke it off with him (I think he has been trying to show her he's changed).  And then she told him that "no way" was he going to lose her as a partner in the lair.  Neither of those sound like she's given up on Oliver.

I think she was admitting that what she said in 416 was harsh and not that she was being harsh in breaking up with him from 415. To me, she hasn't given up on Oliver per se, since she stuck with him from 419 on and hiatus and admitted that she was harsh in 420, but she has given up on the idea of being with Oliver fully in a relationship/marriage. She thinks he can change to be a better person, but the marriage ship has sailed for them at this point, and it would take more than Oliver changing to really push Felicity into trying that relationship again. Even if he became a completely different person, it would take an enormous amount of trust and vulnerability from Felicity who would then have to battle forever against the idea of "what if it happens again?" 

I'm just curious with how you think that he's been trying to show he that he's changed (not being snarky, I just want to compare povs). I can kind of see it in 416 when he's apologizing and swearing that he'll never lie to her and in 419 when he and Felicity are talking about their grief, but I haven't really seen anything overt that shows Oliver is trying to show that he changed. In 420 he didn't even share with Felicity any of his fears about learning magic until after she confronted him about it, and any other little moment (like in 419 or 423) just seems more reactionary to what just happened to them rather than Oliver actively tying to show that he has changed. I just think that that will be part of the overall s5 relationship to show how closer they become.

So her dating someone else might be a retread into her characterization from s3 just as Oliver retreaded with the BMD. Like s3, Felicity reasons that if she can't have a full romantic relationship with Oliver, then she should try someone else, even though it is Oliver she really wants. However, this time, to me, instead of Felicity's inability to fully love anyone but Oliver that would end her other relationship, it would be her inability to fully share/trust with any other person as fully as she did with Oliver. They might take it as a way for Felicity to relate to Oliver's inability to share himself fully or they might take it as a way for Felicity to realize that she doesn't want to take that risk of vulnerability with anyone except for Oliver, even then, or they might do something completely different.

Though, tbh, the relationship doesn't really compute with me either, but mostly for all of these bts reasons (no one being revealed as the bf, the contradictory statements from WM, the constant FP remarks without any details, etc.) along with the weird story/character choices that this brings.   

[dtissagirl]

58 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I'm just curious with how you think that he's been trying to show he that he's changed (not being snarky, I just want to compare povs). I can kind of see it in 416 when he's apologizing and swearing that he'll never lie to her and in 419 when he and Felicity are talking about their grief, but I haven't really seen anything overt that shows Oliver is trying to show that he changed. In 420 he didn't even share with Felicity any of his fears about learning magic until after she confronted him about it, and any other little moment (like in 419 or 423) just seems more reactionary to what just happened to them rather than Oliver actively tying to show that he has changed. I just think that that will be part of the overall s5 relationship to show how closer they become. 

I agree with you -- Felicity didn't lose her faith in Oliver as a vigilante, and even as a partner in the mission to save the city. She just lost her faith in him as a romantic partner/potential husband. Which should be so easily written from a generic tv romance pov, my dear lord almighty, this is SO FUCKING EASY TO DO. But this stupid ass show doesn't let Felicity have conversations about her feelings, nor spends any time with any other character speaking to Felicity about what happened, or making any kind of statement that they're in Felicity's corner during the garbage fire baby mama drama. The narrative takes one single beat to explain it away by that throwaway line from Donna saying Felicity's a pistacchio, but it is also making it clear that the writers will not prioritize Felicity's POV *because they don't want to*. They could if they did.

Meanwhile, Oliver had a couple of pointed conversations with the other characters about the break up. That one with Laurel, with all the awkward touching, in which she made THE VERY RELEVANT POINT that Felicity broke up with the man, not the mask [because Oliver apparently still isn't clear, the poor dumbass]; and then the most important one with Diggle, when Oliver went all "why are you lying to Lyla about Andy, do not follow my example, be better than me".

Which ended up having an enormous effect on THE AUDIENCE. It makes him sympathetic because it gives us understanding of Oliver's pov better than Felicity's. He's given both text and context to talk about his feelings, but since he DOESN'T talk to Felicity about it, and, as far as we know, Felicity doesn't know about these convos Oliver had with Laurel and Dig, then there's no way for Felicity to know how Oliver is feeling. If he's changing towards the ideal partner in life she thought he was. Which puts the audience at sort of unfair advance over Felicity. We know more than she does, and she should know as much as we do -- ideally she should know more than we do -- for this story to work. 

Like, for real, a simple reversal of Thea's role in the mess -- if Thea told Oliver he needed to fucking talk to Felicity already, and he stalled anyway and everything else was the same -- would have given Felicity a fairer stance.

[apinknightmare]

Quote

Like, for real, a simple reversal of Thea's role in the mess -- if Thea told Oliver he needed to fucking talk to Felicity already, and he stalled anyway and everything else was the same -- would have given Felicity a fairer stance.

I've posted this before in her thread, but Felicity never had a fair shot in this breakup, because it involved a kid who wasn't biologically hers. As far as a lot of people are concerned, if it isn't her kid, it isn't her business. Which is ridiculous, of course, but I've seen a lot of that. 

It's especially unfortunate that she wasn't able to be specific about quite a few things that happened throughout the course of the secret-keeping just to remind the audience, because WE knew about them, but she didn't. Like, it would've helped a great deal if she could've spelled out some of his communication issues - like the fact that he talked about what he should do about lil Billy with Diggle and with Mari (a person he barely knew), but not at all with Felicity, the woman he was supposed to marry. Because mentioning that she was "left out of the decision" when Oliver sent the kid away gets the not-your-kid, not-your-business wheels spinning. 

In addition - several times throughout the season the idea of the two of them having children was brought up. It would've been helpful if someone could've pointed out that Oliver did nothing to protect William when Oliver knew that Malcolm - a man Oliver knows is a murderer, a man Oliver had just taken a hand and the League of Assassins from, a man who vowed to make Oliver pay for those things - knew William existed. He did nothing when Thea told him there was a paper trail that led to Samantha and William - a paper trail that Oliver knew Ruve Darhk (a terrible person in her own right, but someone who he knew was married to A LEGIT SUPERVILLAIN) could follow. Like, Felicity shouldn't have just been hurt on a personal level because she was his fiancee, but also on a Green Arrow "partner" level because Oliver actively left his kid unprotected and in danger because he didn't want to tell her a secret he knew would be safe with her, because she'd kept his biggest secret for YEARS!

So, there's another reason to not want to marry and have children with the guy that didn't even get touched on, haha. I mean, I love Oliver - he's my fave, but he is SUCH a moron. 

Anyway, to keep this on track, I agree that he hasn't really done much to show that he's changed, and I'd love to see him open up to her about something to take a step toward that. But ultimately there isn't anything you can do to convince someone you won't ever lie to him - because you tell the truth until you don't. So...it'll have to be a leap of faith where she's concerned. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

24 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I've posted this before in her thread, but Felicity never had a fair shot in this breakup, because it involved a kid who wasn't biologically hers. As far as a lot of people are concerned, if it isn't her kid, it isn't her business. Which is ridiculous, of course, but I've seen a lot of that. 's concerned. 

I think it was worse than than. I get that the show can't control audience reaction, but I guess... Looking back, the narrative pretty much took that stance too -- it wasn't her kid, so she wasn't included.

And then no character raised that issue ["Yo, Oliver, you planning on marrying Felicity and then giving her a surprise stepson as a Christmas gift?" "Yo, Oliver, you gonna pay alimony in secret? Careful when filing taxes there, dude." ], either before or after 415, and the one moment Felicity was about to talk about it, she got up from the chair and we collectively LOLed forever.

It baffles me that the writers room either didn't realize they put Felicity in a no-win situation, or they didn't care [Guggie's notion that Felicity is impervious might have added to the problematics?], because when the fan + professional criticism piled on after 408, they panicked and doubled down on trying to make Oliver come out of this mess smelling like roses.

Which -- the whole point of O/F is that they were equal to each other + complement each other in many several ways. And then to make the decision to break them up by turning the entire narrative unequal is... ugh, terrible writing is terrible.

What worries me going forward -- and I'm still optimistic about next season -- is that none of these lessons were assimilated by the writers. Are they gonna give Felicity more POV? Are they gonna treat them as equal again? I hope so, but I don't know.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I think it was worse than than. I get that the show can't control audience reaction, but I guess... Looking back, the narrative pretty much took that stance too -- it wasn't her kid, so she wasn't included.

And then no character raised that issue ["Yo, Oliver, you planning on marrying Felicity and then giving her a surprise stepson as a Christmas gift?" "Yo, Oliver, you gonna pay alimony in secret? Careful when filing taxes there, dude." ], either before or after 415, and the one moment Felicity was about to talk about it, she got up from the chair and we collectively LOLed forever.

Oh, most definitely. I don't think they would've pointed out these additional failings anyway, it's just a little surprising to me that there wasn't a lot of looking outside the narrative to say, hey...this dude kept defending himself by saying he wanted to protect his kid, then did absolutely nothing to protect his kid. By keeping the secret he actively put his kid in even more danger! I just don't see a lot of criticism about that because its his kid, his choice and none of Felicity's business, which is why I'm not sure that the show being less in the Oliver's in the right category would've really helped things at all. 

[looptab]

9 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Which -- the whole point of O/F is that they were equal to each other + complement each other in many several ways. And then to make the decision to break them up by turning the entire narrative unequal is... ugh, terrible writing is terrible.

What worries me going forward -- and I'm still optimistic about next season -- is that none of these lessons were assimilated by the writers. Are they gonna give Felicity more POV? Are they gonna treat them as equal again? I hope so, but I don't know.

This is the part that worries me, too. Especially after hearing Stephen going on and on about their argument in the premiere being "as equals". 

On another note, I think 416 is the epsode of S4 I've watched the most - if not the whole episode, the final break-up scene. Everyone hates that ep, but I guess I enjoy too much watching him realize he'd screwed up big time. The idiot. Gah I want to forget that storyline from hell.

Edited August 15, 2016 by looptab

[way2interested]

Just now, looptab said:

This is the part that worries me, too. Especially after hearing Stephen going on and on about their argument in the premiere being "as equals". 

On another note, I think 416 is the epsode of S4 I've watched the most - if not the whole episode, the final break-up scene. Everyone hates that ep, but I guess I enjoy too much watching him realize he'd screwed up big time. The idiot. Gah I want to forget that storyline from hell.

The argument in 501 I feel like I'm actually going to be fine with. It looks like the basis is going to be Oliver wants no team, Felicity wants new team, argue argue argue mixed with double meaning lines. 502 is then about the newbies, meaning that Felicity won to an extent that Oliver is listening to her/taking her idea into account. The worst I can see is that their argument might be like 302 in which Oliver does take what Felicity says to heart but never acknowledges it to her directly (the "I don't want to die down here" scene) but merely goes on to get the newbies anyway. However, I can see the possibility of Felicity being more harsh or pushy than necessary which I would not necessarily like to see, but I wouldn't think they would go that far in the premiere.

I'm on board with liking 416 too, tbh. I just liked having more focus on the emotions/reactions behind breaking up beyond only having that one scene at the end of 415. Was it slightly over-dramatic? Yes, but I'd rather have 416 than just going from the end of 415 to 417. Plus, I actually liked a lot of moments in that episode in general.

[Ophanim]

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I've posted this before in her thread, but Felicity never had a fair shot in this breakup, because it involved a kid who wasn't biologically hers. As far as a lot of people are concerned, if it isn't her kid, it isn't her business. Which is ridiculous, of course, but I've seen a lot of that. 

It's especially unfortunate that she wasn't able to be specific about quite a few things that happened throughout the course of the secret-keeping just to remind the audience, because WE knew about them, but she didn't. Like, it would've helped a great deal if she could've spelled out some of his communication issues - like the fact that he talked about what he should do about lil Billy with Diggle and with Mari (a person he barely knew), but not at all with Felicity, the woman he was supposed to marry. Because mentioning that she was "left out of the decision" when Oliver sent the kid away gets the not-your-kid, not-your-business wheels spinning. 

In addition - several times throughout the season the idea of the two of them having children was brought up. It would've been helpful if someone could've pointed out that Oliver did nothing to protect William when Oliver knew that Malcolm - a man Oliver knows is a murderer, a man Oliver had just taken a hand and the League of Assassins from, a man who vowed to make Oliver pay for those things - knew William existed. He did nothing when Thea told him there was a paper trail that led to Samantha and William - a paper trail that Oliver knew Ruve Darhk (a terrible person in her own right, but someone who he knew was married to A LEGIT SUPERVILLAIN) could follow. Like, Felicity shouldn't have just been hurt on a personal level because she was his fiancee, but also on a Green Arrow "partner" level because Oliver actively left his kid unprotected and in danger because he didn't want to tell her a secret he knew would be safe with her, because she'd kept his biggest secret for YEARS!

So, there's another reason to not want to marry and have children with the guy that didn't even get touched on, haha. I mean, I love Oliver - he's my fave, but he is SUCH a moron. 

Anyway, to keep this on track, I agree that he hasn't really done much to show that he's changed, and I'd love to see him open up to her about something to take a step toward that. But ultimately there isn't anything you can do to convince someone you won't ever lie to him - because you tell the truth until you don't. So...it'll have to be a leap of faith where she's concerned. 

If I may add to this perfect assertion, when Oliver chose to send his kid away, without any input by Felicity, he inadvertently send her a message that he doesn't want have kid with anyone, including Felicity, because is "not safe" not immediately at least, and this is something that you need to discuss with person who you wanna marry. He made things so much worse with that decision, but you already covered that :) yeah, he IS moron, imho. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by Lidach
grammatical, hey, eng isn't my first lang