Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Chaser]

I didn't expect a freakin' monument to her, but I did expect some mention. She was a character on the show for the last four years and they made her death a huge thing in the show. I'm hoping this is the nod and they move on. I think they will. I think they want to move on from the character.

[EmilyBettFan]

So ridiculous. 

[foreverevolving]

But the comments on that twitter post.. hilarious!!

[Guest]

This is really not making me want to tune in for s5 though. Aside from the casting of the big bad, nothing is exciting me at all. And now more of Saint Laurel? Ugh. No thank you.

[kismet]

What if the big bad & company uses her statue to tear down in a big dramatic moment, like we see in revolutions around the world? At least that would be cinematically engaging, as opposed to another canonization or unveiling. I could get on board with that being the final or opening moment to the premiere.

[looptab]

10 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I didn't expect a freakin' monument to her, but I did expect some mention. She was a character on the show for the last four years and they made her death a huge thing in the show. I'm hoping this is the nod and they move on. I think they will. I think they want to move on from the character.

Yeah, I expected some mentions here and there too, just not this ongoing canonization. 

Though maybe this is not what we think, like maybe it's actually a keychain that ambulants sell to tourists, haha.

Edited June 22, 2016 by looptab

[bijoux]

2 minutes ago, kismet said:

What if the big bad & company uses her statue to tear down in a big dramatic moment, like we see in revolutions around the world? At least that would be cinematically engaging, as opposed to another canonization or unveiling. I could get on board with that being the final or opening moment to the premiere.

Mostly I'm snorting and giggling at it all, but this is pretty brilliant.

[kismet]

I'd actually laugh if it really is a paperweight and it OQ/SA not only talks to it more but actually acknowledges it more onscreen than he ever did LL/KC after s1. Bonus points if it winds up getting more screen time sitting on someone's desk than the actual character ever did.

Edited June 22, 2016 by kismet

[Chaser]

In show, I find it ridiculous. This isn't Batman at the end of Dark Knight Rises where no one knew his identity and he actually saved the city. She was a DA running around with a group of vigilantes. Half of her convictions should be thrown out.

Out of show, I find it kind of hilarious. It reads more as a troll move to me. Oh you think she is coming back? We are building her a statue with our limited budget. She is dead dead dead.

[ComicFan777]

...maybe this is a part of Flashpoint where the world is just completely wrong...

[Sakura12]

If LL is still dead then the world is not completely wrong. 

I don't get why they are making her some kind of legacy hero when she was a hero for all 5 minutes, 4 of those minutes being a screw up/"training". She was not and will never be Dinah Lance's Black Canary from the comics. That statue is fan service or why else waste money on something that makes no sense with the story they've been telling for 4 seasons. Laurel was a background character that was always overshadowed by the recurring and guest characters. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Was I supposed to laugh? LOL. When Arrow tries too hard it becomes comedy hour. Laurel became a decent character when she became a background character. During her "hero arc" she took her sister's bloody clothes from her dead body, she pretended to be her in front of her dad then when he obviously lost it let Oliver take the blame for her cowardice. That's no hero or role model for anyone.

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

What if the big bad & company uses her statue to tear down in a big dramatic moment, like we see in revolutions around the world? At least that would be cinematically engaging, as opposed to another canonization or unveiling. I could get on board with that being the final or opening moment to the premiere.

That's about the only way I would accept this statue - if it's torn down.

It's both horrific and hilarious. Will she take over a wing of Barry's (unearned) museum next? (Wait, the museum might only be in the comics. I can't remember how he was honored on the show except he had a drink named after him.) Anyhoo, for once, I hope MG is trolling. 

[Chaser]

I haven't had a moment to comment on the new castings.

I'm impressed with the Big Bad casting. I haven't seen to much of The Walking Dead but I respect it. Hopefully they get this character right.

My only experience with Artemis is thru Young Justice. I had no idea that they were whitewashing the character. They love Teen Wolf, they couldn't have gotten Arden Cho? I'm not writing the character off, but I'm not excited about the casting nor the Baby vigilante aspect. I'm hoping that the part is smaller and I think Thea should take point with her. Thea is honestly the only one who makes sense to me here. After everything I can't see Oliver taking her on. Thea is going to need motivation to get back into the fold. A young vigilante would remind her of herself. I would like to see Thea and her creating a mini-duo and Felicity assisting them on comms.

I wonder if they will take their time getting the Team back together. I honestly don't think I would mind it for awhile. Thea/Artemis. Oliver trying to reign in the other vigilante. Felicity working side comms for both. Diggle coming back and working with Lyla. Mid season they all come together. I think it would be interesting if the show went that way because it would force interactions between the characters outside of the action. Oliver/Diggle/Felicity meeting up for a weekly drink. Oliver and Felicity working with the city (Oliver as Mayor and Felicity as part of the business sector). Thea and Felicity hanging out. Oliver and Thea having dinner. Diggle teaching Felicity self defense. Civilian lives. Sigh. I know the show wouldn't do this but I really want it.  

[kismet]

So I'm guessing with all the comments Artemis is not Caucasian? I'm assuming some type of Asian ethnicity?

It's a shame the network & TPTB didn't fight harder to cast someone with a closer ethnic heritage to the comic character... they are many talented young actors that probably could have done well in that role and not have resulted in another whitewashing for no reason.

Nothing really against the actress since I've only really seen her in that one episode of Arrow and I barely remember her performance. Then again the writers were so impressed they submitted the script for an Emmy. Perhaps she was more impressive in the dailies? Otherwise I don't know why you bring back a character and give her a different mask, when she barely made an impression the first time on.

The only thing that is setting off conspiracy alarms in my head is maybe the Flashpoint does have an effect. BC/LL does die in 2015 and perhaps Evelyn Sharp never becomes Lil BC and choose Artemis instead? Still doesn't absolve the whitewashing. But on the brighter side, perhaps means we never had BMD and we can go back to fall 2015 when things were happier & better for TA.

Edited June 22, 2016 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

If there is one thing Arrow is consistent with, it is whitewashing. But since it looks like they are combining two characters into one, it is a little hard since Artemis superhero identity was...Artemis. This is Eve taking up the mantle of Artemis. But if they give her more of Artemis character beats (child of bad guys, etc) then just another case of Arrow being Arrow.

[Velocity23]

Her parents were killed by Darkh i think at the same time Darkh took Thea, Diggle and Felicity.

[wonderwall]

I'm gonna be in the minority here... But I love the idea of the statue for a few reasons:

• It shows Laurel isn't coming back ever
• The writers/artist/production/EPs don't give a damn about Laurel (hence they got the year of her death wrong)
• It looks nothing like her so they REALLY don't care
• Better a statue we'll see only a couple of times than the actual character

So I'm just really chill about this lol

9 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

If there is one thing Arrow is consistent with, it is whitewashing. But since it looks like they are combining two characters into one, it is a little hard since Artemis superhero identity was...Artemis. This is Eve taking up the mantle of Artemis. But if they give her more of Artemis character beats (child of bad guys, etc) then just another case of Arrow being Arrow.

Who else did Arrow whitewash?

Edited June 22, 2016 by wonderwall

[Velocity23]

Wasnt Artemis white in the comics?

[Morrigan2575]

White Canary was Asian in the comics 

Ra's Al Ghul was Arab in the comics.

With MM it's a hard call, they're using Artemis as her alias but she's really Starling, Evelyn Sharp instead of Evelyn Crawford but, everything about her screams Starling.  

So, i don't really know that it's White Washing persay. They didn't cast a white actress to play Artemis Crock or CL to play the sister of The Silk Brothers. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

White Canary was Asian in the comics 

But Arrow didn't whitewash White Canary, it was actually LoT (technically speaking). 

Ohhh they white washed Ra's... Nable's Australian right?

Edited June 22, 2016 by wonderwall

[Primal Slayer]

Sin

and Brick

Ra's

[Starfish35]

Quote

So I'm guessing with all the comments Artemis is not Caucasian? I'm assuming some type of Asian ethnicity?

I'm not totally sure tbh.  I'm seeing different things different places.  The Artemis in Young Justice was.  Her mother was Vietnamese and her father was white.  But I'm not sure if that was a Young Justice only thing or if it was also that way in the comics. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Starfish35

[way2interested]

Just now, Velocity23 said:

Wasnt Artemis white in the comics?

From what I can find, yes. YJ is the only thing I can find that made her overtly not white.

[Sakura12]

I don't really consider White Canary whitewashing because she only had to have that name because of Laurel. If they were able to get rid of Laurel earlier Sara would've stayed the Canary in Black. 

The Artemis pics I've seen was of a blond haired white looking girl. If she was Asian she barely looked it. I would consider that whitewashing a character to look more white. It would be hard for anyone to find a naturally blond Asian even she was half Asian. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

Given when the character was originally created, along with her mother, she was most likely white but I don't think it has ever been clearly stated in the comics all the way back then. But that is why imo it comes down to how they treat the character and if they end up taking more character beats from YJs Artemis or not. But to them it is just another well known name to get hype off of.

[catrox14]

OH my fucking gods. Are they serious? A damn statue to Laurel Lance? Well I hope it's somewhere that pigeons can poop all over it because for me, that's exactly what it would deserve.

See. I KNEW Laurel would NEVER go away. And really way to screw over Sara yet again. You know the one who really was the Hero before her shitty sister. Holy crap that pisses me off.

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't really consider White Canary whitewashing because she only had to have that name because of Laurel. If they were able to get rid of Laurel earlier Sara would've stayed the Canary in Black. 

She didn't have to become WHITE Canary just because Laurel was Black Canary. They could've easily just kept her The Canary. Just as we have had Oliver as The Hood and The Arrow. 

[wonderwall]

Just now, catrox14 said:

OH my fucking gods. Are they serious? A damn statue to Laurel Lance? Well I hope it's somewhere that pigeons can poop all over it because for me, that's exactly what it would deserve.

See. I KNEW Laurel would NEVER go away. And really way to screw over Sara yet again. You know the one who really was the Hero before her shitty sister. Holy crap that pisses me off.

A statue can't replace/ screw over Sara though.

IMO a statue means that they're cementing the fact that she won't ever come back again

[Morrigan2575]

10 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Wasnt Artemis white in the comics?

After some more digging,  yes original comics version was White (she had a different mother than Young Justice).  

[catrox14]

Just now, wonderwall said:

A statue can't replace/ screw over Sara though.

IMO a statue means that they're cementing the fact that she won't ever come back again

Sara deserves a statue more than Laurel is my point. So yes they are screwing her over again.

Laurel is essentially being immortalized if a legit statue is being created. I mean why make a statue of Laurel if it's not going to be prominently placed in a public venue.

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

After some more digging,  yes original comics version was White (she had a different mother than Young Justice).  

In the comics her mother was Paula Brook and Crusher Crock/Sportsmaster. Only difference is in the comics, Paula never took his last name/got married from the looks of it. Whereas in YJ, Paula was married to Sportsmaster and took his name.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/artemis-crock/4005-19011/

[wonderwall]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sara deserves a statue more than Laurel is my point. So yes they are screwing her over again.

Laurel is essentially being immortalized if a legit statue is being created. I mean why make a statue of Laurel if it's not going to be prominently placed in a public venue.

No one knows about Sara and no one revealed who she ever was nor did anyone know that she ever died that second time. So it makes sense why they didn't make a statue for her. 

Plus it's most likely Oliver who wants the statue put up which he can do now that he's Mayor. He couldn't have done it when Sara died. 

Did Sara do 10000000000x more than Laurel? Absolutely. But Sara isn't dead dead so there's no point in Oliver memorializing her.

Edited June 22, 2016 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

Laurel wasn't "back" in the last few episodes of the season, but she still came damn near to ruining them. Every other sentence was about Saint Laurel of the Saintly Laurelness. It's all well and good that she's not coming back, and I believe she's not coming back, but if she's mentioned every five seconds then she's still around ruining everything, probably more than most of S4 with her just in the background.

[catrox14]

Just now, wonderwall said:

No one knows about Sara and no one revealed who she ever was nor did anyone know that she ever died. So it makes sense why they didn't make a statue for her. 

Plus it's most likely Oliver who wants the statue put up which he can do now that he's Mayor. He couldn't have done it when Sara died. 

Did Sara do 10000000000x more than Laurel? Absolutely. But Sara isn't dead dead so there's no point in Oliver memorializing her.

 

I'm aware of all that. It doesn't change my opinion.

[tv echo]

Chad L. Coleman was terrific on The Walking Dead (he can act!), so he should be a great addition to Arrow.  FYI, his height is around 5'10" or 5'11" (and he's very muscular)...

Edited June 22, 2016 by tv echo

[kismet]

Thanks for those who got back to me on the ethnicity of Artemis. The pics were not really clear, if anything it seemed like she might be mixed from what I could remember when I looked into the name as a possible code name for FS. I don't read the comics, so I usually turn here for info. Looks like it might not be whitewashing. Just your average inventive reinterpretation of a comics character which is what Arrow does really do consistently. Oh well, hopefully they have a plan for her. I wonder if they have the CGI budget for all the arrows that are going to be shot onscreen since we now have 4 archers, 5 if you count that Roy might come back.

[AyChihuahua]

How was Chad Coleman in The Wire? I never watched it. I didn't care for his character in TWD, but that was, I think, despite his performance, not bc of it. I found his character far too passive for the circumstances.

[dtissagirl]

The Artemis of the comic books pre-Young Justice was a villain, with pretty minimal appearances. First using her own name, but mostly using the codename Tigress, which used to be her mother's as well. That version was white.

YJ Artemis is a hero, and definitely the more popular/prominent version of the character. Here she was half-Vietnamese. Oliver takes her under his wing as a protégé/sidekick, and he and Bruce come up with a [ridiculous] cover story that Artemis is Oliver's niece to get her into YJ, because they're trying to hide the fact that her father is Sportsmaster, and her sister is Cheshire.

[Lady Calypso]

4 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Hopefully they fix the date, too, since she died in 2016. 

Guys, this is clearly one of the minor changes from The Flash's Flashpoint Paradox story arc. She died in season 3, when she tried to take charge of the team while Oliver was being shoved off a cliff. ;) 

Honestly, I'm ok with this statue because guess what? That means she's dead! Like, dead-dead and she won't actually come back besides guest appearances! And at the very least, the Black Canary is dead! Guys, this is good news! I can rest easy now!

[BkWurm1]

26 minutes ago, kismet said:

Thanks for those who got back to me on the ethnicity of Artemis. The pics were not really clear, if anything it seemed like she might be mixed from what I could remember when I looked into the name as a possible code name for FS. I don't read the comics, so I usually turn here for info. Looks like it might not be whitewashing. Just your average inventive reinterpretation of a comics character which is what Arrow does really do consistently. Oh well, hopefully they have a plan for her. I wonder if they have the CGI budget for all the arrows that are going to be shot onscreen since we now have 4 archers, 5 if you count that Roy might come back.

It is white washing from Young Justice but even on that show I know I was really confused about her ethnicity.  On the show her mother and sister were clearly Asian but the blond hair really threw me.  Plus she was being passed off as the Green Arrow's niece.  I kept waiting for a reveal that she was adopted, lol. 

[Guest]

They've always done so much 'tell rather than show' storytelling where Laurel's concerned. This statue is nothing new. I was annoyed about it at first but like @wonderwall said, it pretty much reaffirms that BC is dead and done. I could do without the repeated mentions of her royal Sainthood though. It was too much in the s4 finale but I could accept that because she had only just recently died. No more please. Let's leave it at the statue, that some thug will probably graffiti or tear down at some point anyway.

As for the white-washing, yeah, Arrow does have that problem. Most comic book adaptations do though. It's a serious issue and they definitely missed their chance to cast a different ethnicity for Artemis. Arrow needs some more diversity in their female characters, period.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Guest

[wonderwall]

10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

As for the white-washing, yeah, Arrow does have that problem. Most comic book adaptations do though. It's a serious issue and they definitely missed their chance to cast a different ethnicity for Artemis. Arrow needs some more diversity in their female characters, period.

Most of hollywood unfortunately :/

[BkWurm1]

I think I might be more willing to wave off the white washing if they'd brought in a great actor at least.  So zero for two is just that much harder to take. 

[Velocity23]

[AyChihuahua]

I'd be so much more excited by SA's tweet if I didn't know that (1) he thinks every episode is awesome; and (2) his favorite episodes/storylines are generally my least favorite.

[Guest]

FIRE! Something burns down! So much spoilers!

[looptab]

Oh, I don't think he actually thinks every episode is awesome. But it's true that he has questionable taste.

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, looptab said:

Oh, I don't think he actually thinks every episode is awesome. But it's true that he has questionable taste.

Yeah, he probably doesn't actually think that, but he does say that. So, what he says ends up being meaningless.

[catrox14]

I wonder if he's using it sarcastically as in "Hot Takes" . But maybe the city is really on fire.  Or hot Olicity sex.