apinknightmare February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Not a lip reading, but I'm thinking since SA said something about wanting to hit Ray Palmer... Perhaps EBR alluded to the fact that Oliver in fact hits Palmer in an episode when they disagree. She said "first time" for sure. Seems like DR said something that had to be bleeped too, since SA seems to look at him. IDK. Link to comment
looptab February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 That's what I think, too. I believe that in 3x16 Oliver will turn down Ra's offer, thus igniting Ra's anger. Then some time after Diggle's wedding, which Oliver attends, he will reconsider his decision and finally accept Ra's offer. I was thinking that he doesn't refuse immediately but has some time to think about it, and in said time (eps 317, 318, 319). all kinds of ish would happen that would make accepting the offer a viable option. But either scenario is likely. I can see them ending the season on a cliffhanger, as someone upthread suggested. It could be that they'll have Oliver accept. Afterall, that would be the kind of game-changer they always advertise and go for. Everyone would think he can't possibly be accepting, he is the hero and has sworn not to kill, how could he ever consider joining, let alone leading the League of Assassins? Instead, BAM! P.S. I don't think Oliver will hit Ray. Hopefully. But I can see an Arrow vs Atom thing. (Not that I want to see it). 2 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Don't we know that the pic of Arrow vs. Arrow is Roy and Oliver? Mind controlled Roy, maybe? Link to comment
Chaser February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 When did SA say he wanted to hit Ray? Link to comment
statsgirl February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 I can see them ending on a cliff-hanger, but would they really end on such a depressing note? The point of a season finale is to get the audience to tune in for the next season. But they're going to have to get Ray off the show for the spinoff pilot. Link to comment
Starfish35 February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Not if it starts midseason. I guess that's yet to be determined. Link to comment
Hook75 February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 P.S. I don't think Oliver will hit Ray. Hopefully. But I can see an Arrow vs Atom thing. (Not that I want to see it). The big question is will they let Oliver/Arrow win or will they let their new shiny toy Raywood win? 1 Link to comment
Chaser February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Someone on tumblr asked MG if Felicity would have someone to actually talk to about things (like Oliver) similar to Diggle for Oliver. His response? The is a nice sense coming up with…. (drumroll) …Laurel. Why the hell would she talk about what she is feeling with Laurel??? If it is about the Oliver/Ray situation, Laurel is the last person Felicity should talk too. 11 Link to comment
Starfish35 February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Yeah my response to that was "are you serious?" RME. One thing I have never wanted - Felicity talking to Laurel of all people about relationships, particularly her feelings about Oliver. 5 Link to comment
Angel12d February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Someone on tumblr asked MG if Felicity would have someone to actually talk to about things (like Oliver) similar to Diggle for Oliver. His response? The is a nice sense coming up with…. (drumroll) …Laurel. Why the hell would she talk about what she is feeling with Laurel??? If it is about the Oliver/Ray situation, Laurel is the last person Felicity should talk too. Hahahahaha. You can't make this stuff up. I'm sorry. I'm all for building female friendships - I've actually never had a problem with Felicity and Laurel slowly becoming friends as long as it's earned - but Felicity talking to Laurel about her feelings just feels so weird, especially if it's about Oliver and/or Ray. Eww. No. It was bad enough when Laurel was offering Oliver advice about Sara last season. Unless they lampshade in the conversation how awkward and uncomfortable it is to be talking about Oliver to his ex girlfriend, this is not something I want to see. 13 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Someone on tumblr asked MG if Felicity would have someone to actually talk to about things (like Oliver) similar to Diggle for Oliver. His response? The is a nice sense coming up with…. (drumroll) …Laurel. Oh, FML. 2 Link to comment
Genki February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 It does seems the MG's Tumblr answer are deliberately missing the point for people are trying to make about Felicity. For example: playitmyway asked:Hi! There are 3 shows I currently watch. Arrow, Suits & The Following. Arrow is the only show I watch live. Kids, hubs, soccer, life happens. However, I am literally wishing this season away. I do not recognize my favorite characters although I'm trying to understand them. I feel like Oliver is being pushed aside so other "heroes" can arise & you're using fan faves Diggle & Felicity to prop them up. W/out sarcasm (although I speak it fluently) what do you say to die hard fans who feel this way? MG: Without sarcasm: I’m sorry you feel this way. Admittedly, Dig has gotten short shrift this season — though he’s prominent in 3x15 and 3x17. That’s what happens when you have a wide cast of characters; some move to the fore while others recede. It’s a cyclical, not a permanent thing. I think fans of Thea and Laurel waited patiently for them to get their just due this season. Big things are in store for Diggle and Felicity in Season 4 and we’ll be hinting at them in upcoming episodes. All that said, all of this is in the eye of the beholder. I get lots of posts and Tweets from fans who feel, for example, that we pay too much attention to Felicity. Everyone’s mileage varies.See? No sarcasm. He addressed the Diggle stuff, side stepped the Oliver stuff and missed the point that Felicity (and the rest of Team Arrow) is being used to prop other characters. Speaking of propping, the Laurel/Felicity "feeling talk stuff" stuff is just wrong, they don't have a natural friendship chemistry, I think one of the reasons MG is deliberately keeping Thea/Felicity out of scenes together because they would have a more realistic relationship, which could develop into a friendship, than either can or does with Laurel. 1 Link to comment
Hook75 February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 I sadly think that Oliver is going to give his "blessing" to Raywood and Felicity and knowing these writers, will prop Ray as the "right choice" for her. I honestly think TIIC are going to do ANYTHING to prop Ray and Laurel. 1 Link to comment
tarotx February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Why not Laurel? She was in Felicity's shoes before. Oliver ran from their relationships. And they both moved on with people who had traits of their version of Oliver. Link to comment
quarks February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Not if it starts midseason. I guess that's yet to be determined. I think even if it starts midseason they might start filming at least the pilot in July or August - they wouldn't have announced this without booking the actors, and they can't book the actors without giving them at least some idea of the schedule, and although Garber usually does guest/supporting roles, he's in enough demand that I don't think they will want to risk losing him to another project or having to film around him by delaying filming for too long, and based on his previous history, I don't think Garber will want to be idle for too long. They can also always plan to film an initial 13/15 episode season for a midseason replacement, and then expand that. I figured we'd have more Laurel/Felicity scenes coming up, but surely they can discuss other stuff like the League of Assassins and Thea and whether or not they are actually friends now. Felicity/Caitlin managed that, and even Felicity/Iris were able to discuss coffee and trivia and stuff. Iris/Caitlin have apparently absolutely nothing else in common, but even they've occasionally discussed things other than Barry. It can happen. 3 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 (edited) Why not Laurel? She was in Felicity's shoes before. Oliver ran from their relationships. And they both moved on with people who had traits of their version of Oliver. Because, not to put too fine a point on it, talking to the chick who used to bang the dude about the dude you now want to bang is absolutely gross. It was gross when Sara and Laurel did it, it's gross now. Edited February 28, 2015 by AyChihuahua 15 Link to comment
Hook75 February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Because, not to put too fine a point on it, talking to the chick who used to bang the dude about the dude you now want to bang is absolutely gross. It was gross when Sara and Laurel did it, it's gross now. Yep. She used to talk to Dig (and Oliver), now they are shoving Laurel into every scene and SL, I'm so sick of it! 5 Link to comment
statsgirl February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Why not Laurel? She was in Felicity's shoes before. Oliver ran from their relationships. And they both moved on with people who had traits of their version of Oliver. No, she was actually in a relationship with Oliver. It sucked as a relationship because they kept lying to each other and themselves, but it was a relationship. Oliver has never let Felicity get close, only once let her kiss him back. That's not in the same universe. Also, sometimes two people have nothing emotionally in common and forcing them into these kinds of scenes is so inorganic, it hurts both characters. In this case, especially Felicity. Why would she talk about personal things to the woman who for two seasons treated her like dirt on her shoe? 10 Link to comment
tarotx February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 How is it Gross? A lot of women are friends with their BF's ex and the guy comes up. Plus currently Both Felicity and Laurel are not with Oliver. They are two women having a bonding moment Because of a similar relationship pattern with Oliver and a second billionaire... Because, not to put too fine a point on it, talking to the chick who used to bang the dude about the dude you now want to bang is absolutely gross. It was gross when Sara and Laurel did it, it's gross now. 1 Link to comment
Genki March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 How is it Gross? A lot of women are friends with their BF's ex and the guy comes up. Plus currently Both Felicity and Laurel are not with Oliver. They are two women having a bonding moment Because of a similar relationship pattern with Oliver and a second billionaire... There was a fair amount of discussion about this in the relationship thread Start around page 38...I think that is where it picked up. Link to comment
tarotx March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I read the relationship thread but I'll never find it Gross that two women who aren't in a love/hate relationship with each other can be friends and that includes mature conversations about men even when one is an ex and the other a current. The problem with Laurel and Sara was their own relationship and Oliver's place in the splinterimg of it. Laurel and Felicity are "co workers" with a shared similar relationship pattern with Oliver. And yes even though Felicity didn't sleep with Oliver the similarity still stands. And KC's acting ability aside I don't find Felicity and Laurel that different. Yes Laurel let her bitterness eat her alive and has fallen to her addictions (both chemical&need to be Sara's Canary) but at one time they were both similar. If KC was a better actress I would be looking forward to the scene. 1 Link to comment
AyChihuahua March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I read the relationship thread but I'll never find it Gross that two women who aren't in a love/hate relationship with each other can be friends and that includes mature conversations about men even when one is an ex and the other a current. I have never known a woman IRL who wanted to talk to a boyfriend's ex about that boyfriend. About other stuff, sure. In sitcoms, sure. Literally never IRL. 14 Link to comment
Starfish35 March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 The problem (or one of many problems) with it is that it puts Laurel in the presumptive position of being able to give advice on that relationship. Which....no. No. No. 1000 times no. Laurel is the last person who should ever be giving advice on Oliver Queen. Not to mention that presumes a far closer friendship between Laurel and Felicity than has actually been shown on screen. Or the implication that Laurel somehow knows Oliver better than Felicity. 20 Link to comment
calliope1975 March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 The problem (or one of many problems) with it is that it puts Laurel in the presumptive position of being able to give advice on that relationship. Which....no. No. No. 1000 times no. Laurel is the last person who should ever be giving advice on Oliver Queen. Not to mention that presumes a far closer friendship between Laurel and Felicity than has actually been shown on screen. Or the implication that Laurel somehow knows Oliver better than Felicity. Forget the bending of time and space that would be required to have Felicity want to talk to Laurel about Oliver. In what land would Laurel want to talk to Felicity about Oliver? I'm sorry the writers suck so much and are unable to develop female friendships organically, but that's on them. It's clearly not a priority, and the more they shoehorn in unearned Felicity and Laurel bonding time, the more I will recoil from it. Have Felicity call Caitlin. Those are two women I believe have formed a friendship. And if they can continue to ship off Felicity over to The Flash for whatever reason they've contrived, DP can pop on over to Arrow for a 2 minute scene with EBR. 20 Link to comment
statsgirl March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I read the relationship thread but I'll never find it Gross that two women who aren't in a love/hate relationship with each other can be friends and that includes mature conversations about men even when one is an ex and the other a current. Laurel spent two seasons if not hating Felicity then treating her like yesterday's garbage. It will take another two seasons of Laurel being nice to Felicity before I'll even consider buying that they can talk to each other about Oliver. It makes more sense for Felicity to talk to Diggle, or Roy or Caitlyn, people who have actually been nice to Felicity before ep 310, rather than Laurel. Felicity has absolutely nothing in common with Laurel other than they're both women, they have to work together and at one time were both attracted to Oliver. If Laurel needs a BFF, it makes much more sense for it to be Thea. The last two times Felicity and Laurel had a heart-to-heart, in Midnight City and Canaries, it left me disgusted that Felicity is being such a doormat. I don't know how many more hits her character can take this season. It's like MG is deliberately trying to tank this show. People want more O/D/F -- he says they have to move beyond that. They say they want better characterization and plotting, he throws in more scenes of Felicity propping Ray and Laurel and Oliver being an idiot. They say they miss Sara, he throws in more Laurel. I'm beginning to think there's no karma. 6 Link to comment
NoWayOut March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Who else would be a better fit to give Felicity relationship advice none other than the person who knows Oliver like she knows her own name? 6 Link to comment
AyChihuahua March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Who else would be a better fit to give Felicity relationship advice none other than the person who knows Oliver like she knows her own name? Great point. Also, ha! I think she just needs a sounding board more than anything, so it really doesn't have to be anyone who knows Oliver that well. I think Dig has chosen sides, plus that could be kind of awkward. I'm down with Caitlin, honestly. Link to comment
closer2fine March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Who else would be a better fit to give Felicity relationship advice none other than the person who knows Oliver like she knows her own name? I think that Laurel knew "Ollie," but I don't think she knows anything about who Oliver actually is. 8 Link to comment
statsgirl March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Even Roy would be better to talk to than Laurel because Roy's been through more with Felicity (remember the scenes over Sara's body?) and he's also seen Oliver being a dick. Plus, he's got a healthy relationship with Thea, which is more than Laurel ever had even with Tommy. But MG wants to rehab Laurel and because he doesn't understand why Laurel's behaviour to Felicity in the past might be a problem, he's taking a shortcut, assuming that if Laurel is finally nice to Felicity, we'll like her. But Felicity's essence to make other characters likable has been severely diluted this season. 11 Link to comment
NoWayOut March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I don't think Laurel knows who Oliver is at all. I just wanted an excuse to use that delusional line. Felicity's cute assistant Gerry Conway could probably offer better advice. 10 Link to comment
catrox14 March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 The thought of Laurel and Felicity bonding over a shared love interest is gross beyond gross. There is nothing that makes organic or believable. And in fact, it's the oldest trope known to man that two ex-girlfriends discuss the man. Laurel knows FUCK ALL about Oliver now and Felicity knows FUCK ALL about Ollie. They have zero reason to discuss him unless they working together to save Oliver and Diggle from the LoA. It's all to prop Laurel and it pisses me off beyond belief. If it were Laurel and Oliver's baby mama...that I would buy because they would have been involved with the Ollie that was a dickbag. Felicity and Sara had believable discussions about Oliver because they know the Oliver of today and Oliver had not yet declared his love for Felicity. Now, it's just ...well wrong. YMMV 10 Link to comment
closer2fine March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 The thought of Laurel and Felicity bonding over a shared love interest is gross beyond gross. There is nothing that makes organic or believable. And in fact, it's the oldest trope known to man that two ex-girlfriends discuss the man. Laurel knows FUCK ALL about Oliver now and Felicity knows FUCK ALL about Ollie. They have zero reason to discuss him unless they working together to save Oliver and Diggle from the LoA. It's all to prop Laurel and it pisses me off beyond belief. If it were Laurel and Oliver's baby mama...that I would buy because they would have been involved with the Ollie that was a dickbag. Felicity and Sara had believable discussions about Oliver because they know the Oliver of today and Oliver had not yet declared his love for Felicity. Now, it's just ...well wrong. YMMV You're right. It's absolutely ridiculous. So the fact that it's probably going to happen isn't surprisingly at all. Nothing about this season has been surprising. 3 Link to comment
formerlyfreedom March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Folks, it appears we know where everyone stands on the 'Is it gross or not?" topic, so let's move on to other discussion please. 1 Link to comment
CabotCove March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) He addressed the Diggle stuff, side stepped the Oliver stuff and missed the point that Felicity (and the rest of Team Arrow) is being used to prop other characters. He didn't miss the point, he just doesn't agree with it. He said so plenty of times Edited March 1, 2015 by Conell 1 Link to comment
Genki March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 He didn't miss the point, he just doesn't agree with it. He said so plenty of times However it MG been brought to his attention multiple times, so even if he doesn't agree the perception is out there. IMO they are deliberately propping characters and they know it. 3 Link to comment
apinknightmare March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 However it MG been brought to his attention multiple times, so even if he doesn't agree the perception is out there. IMO they are deliberately propping characters and they know it. It's not like he's ever going to admit it. 4 Link to comment
statsgirl March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I'd be okay with him not admitting it. What I'm not okay with is when he hears it, instead of addressing the problem, he doubles down. His last reply to "When are we going to get Thea/Felicity scenes?", which he himself said were coming, was to say 'every time you ask, I move them back another season. Now they're in season 12'. When people say that Felicity needs a friend she can talk to about her feelings now that Diggle is talking to Oliver, his response is to put her in a scene with Laurel. After the angry response to the last Felicity/Laurel scene, which MG did admit took him by surprise, the solution is not to do again the thing that people didn't like before. The complaints this season have been about stupid plotlines, the breaking up of O/D/F, stupid Oliver and miserable Felicity. He doesn't need to fix all of them, and it's going to be hard to fix the plotlines since they're long term. But having a few scenes with Felicity and Diggle talking again, and O/D/F working together again instead of Instead, the spoilers are of Felicity still being isolated with Ray or Laurel, and no Team O/D/F. He didn't miss the point, he just doesn't agree with it. He said so plenty of times These are the voices of the canaries in the coal mine though. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) He didn't miss the point, he just doesn't agree with it. He said so plenty of times He could at least say something like, "okay, I can see why you might perceive it that way, but that is not what we were going for", instead of implying that many viewers don't know how to watch the show. IMO he's being purposefully obtuse, disingenuous or he's a dolt ( and I don't really think he's a dolt). I just don't see the point of isolating Felicity even further from TA other than to eventually take her off the show. I would not be the least bit surprised to see her leave Arrow for either the Flash or the other spinoff. Edited March 1, 2015 by catrox14 Link to comment
apinknightmare March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I'd be okay with him not admitting it. What I'm not okay with is when he hears it, instead of addressing the problem, he doubles down. My comment was about him not admitting they're propping up characters - not about his answers to other questions. He should be nicer to people on Tumblr, but he is never, ever going to admit that they're using well-liked characters to prop up new/unliked ones. I just don't see the point of isolating Felicity even further from TA other than to eventually take her off the show. I would not be the least bit surprised to see her leave Arrow for either the Flash or the other spinoff. It's because Felicity's identity issue this season is whether she's just Oliver's crush (/assistant) or if she exists outside of the foundry (as Ray's crush/assistant). Isolating her from the team is how they're having her explore her "identity," since apparently she can't have one without a man, and it allows them to bring Ray into the plot, which seems to be the plot of a completely different show. 2 Link to comment
tv echo March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I was looking forward to 3x20, but MG's latest spoilers have once made me dread yet another upcoming episode. Link to comment
apinknightmare March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I was looking forward to 3x20, but MG's latest spoilers have once made me dread yet another upcoming episode. I wonder if that's when Oliver's going to take Ra's up on his offer? Like, we'll get some movement of Felicity's side (maybe an I love you?), but Oliver's going to accept anyway? Link to comment
Starfish35 March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I had been under the impression that the Oliver's child storyline was being pushed off to next season, but now with MG answering all questions related to that by saying it's a spoiler and he can't say, I'm thinking maybe not so much. Link to comment
tv echo March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 It sounds like, if you're rooting for any couple to be endgame on this show, you actually don't want them to get together until the very last episode of the very last season of the series. MG: "My point being, that it’s unlikely that anything established in the middle of Season 3 will become the permanent status quo all the way to the end of the series. One of the things, I think, that makes Arrow special is that it’s in a constant state of evolution. Very little on the show has permanence, including relationships." Link to comment
quarks March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I just took that as "No, Ray and Felicity aren't staying together," since it was in response to that question. Which we all knew. 1 Link to comment
Enero March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) It sounds like, if you're rooting for any couple to be endgame on this show, you actually don't want them to get together until the very last episode of the very last season of the series. MG: "My point being, that it’s unlikely that anything established in the middle of Season 3 will become the permanent status quo all the way to the end of the series. One of the things, I think, that makes Arrow special is that it’s in a constant state of evolution. Very little on the show has permanence, including relationships." I think this is pretty much the standard for most shows. If Arrow manages to be on for 9-10 seasons I'm betting it won't look anything like what it does today - relationship wise. By the time this show is over, Diggle and Lyla could be divorced. Quinn could be dead. Laurel and Oliver could've worked their way back to each other. Or he could be continuing to do the single thing and Felicity could have left Sterling City for greener pastures. The show is still very early in its run, so at this point I don't think any couple can be deemed endgame. BOT - Don't know what to think about Oliver becoming Ras. I thought Ras was a person not a title - very weird. And why would Ras want to just hand over his title to someone else? Someone he'd previously tried to kill? I'll admit I'm behind a couple of episodes so maybe I'll get some insight on my questions after catching up. Edited March 1, 2015 by Enero Link to comment
tv echo March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) On Smallville, Clark started out as a 16-year-old. So by the time that show ended its 10-year run, he was in his 20's. If Arrow lasts 10 years, by the end of the series, Oliver will be approaching 40 - usually the age of the parents on CW shows. Edited March 1, 2015 by tv echo 1 Link to comment
KirkB March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) BOT - Don't know what to think about Oliver becoming Ras. I thought Ras was a person not a title - very weird. And why would Ras want to just hand over his title to someone else? Someone he'd previously tried to kill? I'll admit I'm behind a couple of episodes so maybe I'll get some insight on my questions after catching up. Sorry but no, you won't. Ra's invitation was the last thing in the show so far. We're waiting to hear Oliver's response. And I was under the impression Ra's al Ghul was his name and not his title too, though Arrow could be playing it differently. As for why Ra's would make the offer, I would like the answer to that question myself. In three seasons I have never seen Oliver do a single thing (and as a viewer I have been privy to more than Ra's ever could) which leads me to believe he would even be capable of running a lemonade stand, let alone a major organization. He can't even keep a few people willing to be there in line in a lair under a nightclub so how is he supposed to control an ancient order of assassins. Edited March 1, 2015 by KirkB 7 Link to comment
AyChihuahua March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Very few shows last ten years, and this one, under MG...nope. 1 Link to comment
dtissagirl March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) Very few shows last ten years, and this one, under MG...nope. I get what you're saying, but he's the expendable part of the equation. The 2 CW shows that lasted a decade -- Smallville and SPN -- did so by finding new showrunners, after the original guys' contracts expired, and the studio decided to continue without them anyway. If execs at Warner Bros decide Arrow is bankable past the planned 5 years, they'll totally continue, and they'll do it so without Guggenheim/Kreisberg/Berlanti if they have to. ~Creator vision~ only goes as far as their contract deadline, really. Edited March 1, 2015 by dancingnancy Link to comment
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