Spoiler Discussion Thread

[leopardprint]

I could see Oliver "liking" killing because it's the only thing he good at. He was shown as a screwup pre-Island and post-Island failing at everything non-combat related. He's failed his family business, romance, mayoring, parenting, and his family in Moira, Laurel, and Tommy's death.

Edited March 21, 2017 by leopardprint
Moira deserves a capital M.

[statsgirl]

You could say that Moira and Laurel died because Oliver failed to kill when he had the chance.

If MG had to do a "public service announcement" episode, I wish he had done "people will say anything under torture and it gets you incorrect information" rather than his pro/anti gun episode.

9 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I get the compartmentalizing/keeping things black and white in order to do the things he had to do (similar to what Talia advised him about constructing the Arrow persona). But I think being detached/indifferent/having a simplistic approach to killing is way different than *liking* it. That's a whole other ballgame that's above and beyond PTSD. It reminds me of Dexter, who used vigilante-ing as an outlet for his murderous desires.

I don't think Oliver is anything like Dexter, in fact if you looked at his (fake) Rorshach, you'd see a lot of intact stuff.  We'll see what the episode comes up with but right now I think of it as liking the simplicity of not having to make a decision rather than liking the killing itself.

[Sunshine]

In flashbacks it's basically been kill or be killed which is why I haven't had a real problem with it.  It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[ComicFan777]

22 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I thought if it was 4-D it would involve studying the phenomenon through time, which makes a real-time algorithm meaningless. 

Computer codes can store data in an array with as many dimensions as you want - it's not limited to three because it's not physical.  It doesn't care about what each dimension represents - it's just reading the array in as a list of lists of lists of lists of data, so an algorithm can handle analyzing a multidimensional array as long as the computer running it has enough processing power and storage.  For example, the dimensions of an array can be 4 different variables being read in...program could read in people's age, weight, income, and blood pressure, and store it into a 4D array.

Edited March 21, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Carrie Ann]

I've watched enough Monsters-as-Heroes shows that this storyline is pretty tired for me. I don't really buy it for Oliver, so we'll see how they try to explain it after this episode (I'm assuming they really won't have time to get into an explanation in 517, not that I would buy anything Chase says or anything Oliver says after six days of torture). I could see him liking the feeling of being in control after his five years away "on the island," and the five years since under the cloud of various Big Bads.

So...I hope it's something like that and not just some cheesy thing like Thea's bloodlust. Even better would be if he only thinks he likes it, because he was being tortured and because he's confusing a feeling of safety/control with a desire/enjoyment in killing, and that he realizes that by the end of the season.

[sara1121]

I really hope that they're going to make this a something untrue said as a result of torture rather than, say, something he liked in the past but he's totally killing people now for honourable reasons cause frankly if he was ever killing for enjoyment, past or present, that makes Oliver ireedeemable to me. You can't change that.much. If you liked killing in the past and you're still killing? Well deep inside you still enjoy it but get to dress it up as heroics. When what you really are is a murderer who deserves to be locked up for the rest of your life.

Edited March 21, 2017 by sara1121

[theOAfc]

25 minutes ago, strikera0 said:

So, Oliver Queen = Dexter Morgan?

I actually bought Dexter as a hero more than i ever did with Oliver. lol 

Quote

You could say that Moira and Laurel died because Oliver failed to kill when he had the chance.

This is funny because it was used as his main reason for going back to killing this season,giving the impression that Oliver was forcing himself to be something darker only to prevent the death of another loved one. Implying that Oliver didnt like it but he had to do it. So him believing he is enjoying that is imo completely stupid. And i dont think im gonna buy that he will break in just one episode and that this fear will take over.  Unless its gonna be implied he is kept for many days which i doubt. 

Edited March 21, 2017 by theOAfc

[way2interested]

Just now, Sunshine said:

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Yeah, I'm interested too, or at least I'm wondering where they go next. If Oliver decides not to kill himself, then what does Chase do? Try harder? There's still 6 episodes left, so figuring that Oliver gets his pep back some time during then, does it take him 6 episodes to do that and come back to par at the end or does he come back circa 521 and then Chase's ultimate May sweeps plan is to get Oliver to that spot again by...doing something I guess? 

[Velocity23]

How about Oliver has been tortured for 6 days straight and he just wants it to stop. And has nothing to do with enjoying killing himself. 

[wonderwall]

9 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

I actually bought Dexter as a hero more than i ever did with Oliver. lol 

How? In every single season, Dexter never killed his prey for the town. He did it to feed his 'dark passenger'. 

While, yes, Oliver may have seemed to confess he likes killing

1. We don't know how true that statement is because he says it while being tortured to death
2. Even if this was the case, Oliver's goal was/is also to help clean up the city and make it a better place, that's why he became mayor

That's way more heroic than Dexter will ever be. Dexter needed to kill. It's just good thing his father was there to steer him into only killing bad people. Otherwise who knows what he would've become. Not only that, but the show never presented Dexter as a hero. That's why the people that found out about his 'hobby' were always disgusted by his actions. 

Edited March 21, 2017 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

I hope the killing confession comes as a result of torture and a particular idea Chase put in his head and has been hammering home that finally made him break. I would dislike it immensely if the show treated killing as an addiction that Oliver has to control or overcome or something. He's never particularly seemed to enjoy doing it, and even DIDN'T do it when it would've made sense. I just want the guy to get on a common-sense level with the killing because it's not always the worst thing, especially not given the people he's chosen to kill in the past.

[leopardprint]

8 minutes ago, way2interested said:

If Oliver decides not to kill himself, then what does Chase do?

Is Chase's ultimate goal Oliver's total isolation or is the isolation in service to something else? If I were a diabolical villain who wanted to psychologically torture the hero I would set it up as Team Arrow vs Arrow.

Edited March 21, 2017 by leopardprint
autocorrect

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Because she tells MG what he wants to hear? That's he's this super amazing writer? It might be too early to talk to mainstream entertainment media sites, but this is not gonna help the general audience get excited. 

She's his number 1 (and likely only) fangirl. So yeah, I think that's it as well.

As for Oliver's confession, I'm also in the camp thinking it's the result of an almost a week of torture, and I think @tv echo articulated it best, that it's Chase feeding on Oliver's deepest fears.

30 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Under intense torture and interrogation, prisoners and suspects have been known to confess to beliefs that they don't believe and to committing crimes that they didn't commit. So I just don't believe that Oliver undertook his crusade because he enjoys killing, period.

It's not so much Oliver confessing a secret, but confessing a secret fear. Probably by the end of this season, he'll realize the difference.

Probably even sooner if 519 is Team Arrow vs. Team Felicity. I'm banking on by the end of 518 for some significant forward movement on that front.

[dtissagirl]

6 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

Even better would be if he only thinks he likes it, because he was being tortured and because he's confusing a feeling of safety/control with a desire/enjoyment in killing, and that he realizes that by the end of the season.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me, tbh. Chase getting Oliver to such a breakdown point that he'll admit to being a monster, and maybe even believing he is one, but this is the lowest point because we're only at episode 17 and there are still 6 episodes for Dig and Felicity to pep talk him back into hero.

I wonder if the flashbacks in this episode are gonna go extra hammy with Oliver killing people, to go with the I want to/I liked it line.

But egads, the potential for the dismount here to be a full head first fall is ginormous.

[leopardprint]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

and there are still 6 episodes for Dig and Felicity to pep talk him back into hero.

I would like Oliver to pep talk himself back into a hero. Please and thank you. 

[lemotomato]

20 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

Unless its gonna be implied he is kept for many days which i doubt. 

Diggle says that Oliver's been gone for 6 days. Is that enough?

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

This is the only thing that makes sense to me, tbh. Chase getting Oliver to such a breakdown point that he'll admit to being a monster, and maybe even believing he is one.

This is how I see it too. Oliver had showed in the past he thinks little of himself so maybe he has this unexpressed fear that he killed all those people because that's who he is, a killer.

Another possibility could be that they mean he likes killing bad people, so not taking a life but giving bad people what they deserve. But I have never thought that was Oliver to be honest..he has always (almost, not counting the first episode of this season) seemed tortured by what he has done. 

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Is Chase's ultimate goal Oliver's total isolation or is the isolation in service to something else? If I were a diabolical villain who wanted to psychologically torture the hero I would set it up as Team Arrow vs Arrow.

I think 517 is his ultimate goal, making Oliver admit he's awful and want to kill himself, so I wonder what he would do once his ultimate plan doesn't pan out. Idk if a Team Arrow vs. Arrow thing would necessarily be it since they've been reestablishing how the team is sticking by Oliver (509, Diggle's line in 512, Felicity this whole season) no matter what, but if Chase is behind the Helix I can see maybe they'll go for a last minute isolation from Diggle and/or Felicity to try to get Oliver to think that Diggle and/or Felicity really are worse off because of Oliver or something.

[dtissagirl]

It doesn't even look to me like they have a second option, because they have never shown anything remotely close to Oliver enjoying killing someone [guessing the flashbacks will go there in this ep? But it'll be the first time], so if it turns out that hey, Oliver likes killing, it's basically retconning the entire show.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

But it'll be the first time], so if it turns out that hey, Oliver likes killing, it's basically retconning the entire show.

If only I thought that were impossible, haha.

[insomniadreams88]

Whether this is true or not or Oliver is just saying it because he thinks Chase wants to hear it/after the six days of torture, it's still going to be tricky. It's still something they're going to have to take time to address because once it's out there - whether or not Oliver believes it's true - it's out there.

[theOAfc]

27 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

How? In every single season, Dexter never killed his prey for the town. He did it to feed his 'dark passenger'. 

 

Dexter was supposed to be a man that was trying to use his hunger for blood in a good way,in order to not end up in jail like his father taught him in childhood. However as seasons' progressed,he showed a lot of compassion to victims he saved. Especially Lumen in s5. And thats why he eventually stopped killing(i hated the last season though so...).

Oliver most of the times spends zero time empathizing with or feeling for the vicims. It seems more like he forces himself to be the vigilante imo,which is why he didnt even wanna come back in s4. Being the green arrow is his way to right his father wrongs but mainly to redeem his own past self because he felt like he hurt many people around him and he had to somehow become better.  I never bought oliver as someone who started his vigilante thing because he actually  wanted to help people(unlike Barry in flash in season 1) just like i never bought that Dexter started saving people(by killing villains) in order to help them. Which is why i think at times its easy to compare these two. Its also that in my opinion Dexter showed more emotion over the victims than Oliver ever did. It might be the actors though. 

I think arrow is a show about a hero yet somehow it fails to actually focus on him being a hero aka feeling like saving people not feeling like he has to save people. Showing him catch the bad guys and trying to kill the villain who is targeting him or the city is the standard season for arrow but it should focus more on showing the hero feel for the victims in each episode. I remember once oliver helped a woman who was barely hit by a car. I needed more of that on the show . I needed more of him saving individuals or group of people from the bad guy and interacting with them in order to feel that he really cared for them. Even if he was behind his mask. Now it feels more like a job to him. He wakes up, goes to the lair and asks the tech guys what's the next bad guy to catch. Saying i care for my city and i have to protect my city is not doing much to me,its not showing that he is really feeling for these people. At least imo. 

Dexter was a show about a serial killer but somehow that serial killer had many interactions and empathy for the victims considering  the show was trying to highlight his need for kill.

Edited March 21, 2017 by theOAfc

[bijoux]

I watched SA's interview with etalk.ca and he mentions there being no music when episode 518 cuts to opening credits, comparing it to 24 not using the ticking clock when really bad stuff happened. And he's predicting pain. They're not going to actually have Oliver seriously contemplating suicide, are they? That's the first thing that popped to my head after how 517 is supposed to end.

[Trisha]

Oops. Earlier I attributed the EW quote to SA but actually it was MG who said this part: “Our hope is that you will look at Oliver’s killing in a completely different light and look at it in a totally different way. And look at his motivations for killing in a different way, in a more complex, more nuanced way."

Still not super reassuring that this will be explained as something Oliver just says because he's tortured and under duress, but MG sometimes oversells things. 

http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/21/arrow-oliver-vigilante-past-amell-guggenheim/

[jay741982]

19 hours ago, LeighAn said:

If thats all it takes then I shall break you my child of your illness:

Ugh this is the kinda of angst I eat up. Besides yelling about them being tortured I wept and proclaimed it an epic romance.

[statsgirl]

It's the monster in him.  Talia said so.

I wonder if they will retcon this into being the reason he said he couldn't be with anyone.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Oops. Earlier I attributed the EW quote to SA but actually it was MG who said this part: “Our hope is that you will look at Oliver’s killing in a completely different light and look at it in a totally different way. And look at his motivations for killing in a different way, in a more complex, more nuanced way."

You are incapable of nuance, so I doubt it!

[Hiveminder]

I really hope this is a secret fear and not a secret truth because the idea that Oliver enjoys killing is preposterous. He's never been shown to enjoy killing people, and no amount of retconning is going to make me believe it. 

[leopardprint]

14 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

I think arrow is a show about a hero yet somehow it fails to actually focus on him being a hero aka feeling like saving people not feeling like he has to save people.

This is an interesting point because Oliver has never been internally motivated to be a hero. Someone is always dragging him along. That's actually why Talia basically creating the Hood didn't sit well with me even though the Hood isn't really considered a hero I guess.

Edited March 21, 2017 by leopardprint
typos

[dtissagirl]

5 minutes ago, Trisha said:

“Our hope is that you will look at Oliver’s killing in a completely different light and look at it in a totally different way. And look at his motivations for killing in a different way, in a more complex, more nuanced way."

HAHAHAHA LOLNO, GUGGIE.

Like, seriously, he's saying "our hope is I'm gonna give you a ~shocker~ dialogue line that is obviously just another piece of plotty driven shit on our 109th episode that'll make you look back at 108 previous hours of television in a different way", oh, go fuck a cactus, hack showrunner.

Edited March 21, 2017 by dtissagirl

[thegirlsleuth]

19 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

It doesn't even look to me like they have a second option, because they have never shown anything remotely close to Oliver enjoying killing someone [guessing the flashbacks will go there in this ep? But it'll be the first time], so if it turns out that hey, Oliver likes killing, it's basically retconning the entire show.

I think the closest they got to this was when he tortured the general at the end of season 3.  I actually found season 4 confusing because with the general's death I thought they were kicking off his flashback descent into real darkness, but then season four showed him fighting against injustice again which I assume might be one of those "Oh, crap.  We got another season" reversals.

[leopardprint]

Why? Seriously can someone ask him why?

[thegirlsleuth]

Just now, leopardprint said:

Why? Seriously can someone ask him why?

If it is in fact so Oliver can give the Hunter speech, the answer is "because comics".

[dtissagirl]

2 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I think the closest they got to this was when he tortured the general at the end of season 3.  I actually found season 4 confusing because with the general's death I thought they were kicking off his flashback descent into real darkness, but then season four showed him fighting against injustice again which I assume might be one of those "Oh, crap.  We got another season" reversals.

I have this [completely unfounded] theory that their plans for S4 flashbacks were something else entirely that they realized they couldn't afford for whatever reason, that they had to scrape and go back to the island because filming in a public park + casting Poppy cost them like, 17 dollars.

[Chaser]

Are they saying that Oliver enjoys killing now or that it wasn't about righting his family's wrongs five years ago, it was about him enjoying the kill (therefore tainting his mission)?

Edited March 21, 2017 by Chaser

[Midnight Lullaby]

16 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Oops. Earlier I attributed the EW quote to SA but actually it was MG who said this part: “Our hope is that you will look at Oliver’s killing in a completely different light and look at it in a totally different way. And look at his motivations for killing in a different way, in a more complex, more nuanced way."

Still not super reassuring that this will be explained as something Oliver just says because he's tortured and under duress, but MG sometimes oversells things. 

http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/21/arrow-oliver-vigilante-past-amell-guggenheim/

Oh wow. Now I'm afraid for real they are going to make it look like a part of Oliver likes to kill. I hope they will succeed just like they succeeded in showing Oliver and Susan caring for each other. Exactly like that.

[thegirlsleuth]

Just now, dtissagirl said:

I have this [completely unfounded] theory that their plans for S4 flashbacks were something else entirely that they realized they couldn't afford for whatever reason, that they had to scrape and go back to the island because filming in a public park + casting Poppy cost them like, 17 dollars.

It might also explain why it had no focus, plotwise or in theme, although it might just be lazy writing.  I wonder if they had something planned for "Coast City", his destination at the end of season 3, but that got scuttled because it cost 22 dollars instead of 17.

[LeighAn]

6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

It's in the spoiler only thread

I don't think she actually knows anything. She makes shit up and pulls spoilers from other people and acts as if it's her info. 

Is she the infamous source of the Oliver and Susan have sex in 5x05 spoiler that never happened? I know that came from a group on Twitter who one of those people are also the group firmly in camp Tinah is a love interest. 

Re: Yonku/Jbuffy spoilers

I think since William is what ultimately broke Olicity it's seems only natural to me that he comes up in any reunion/working out issues conversation. My ideal would be that since Felicity ended things with Oliver because he didn't talk to her about William or include her in any of the decision making in that storyline that the Willam conversation be as simple as Felicity giving her thoughts on what she would have done and said if he'd been truthful with her from the start. 

Yonku has been pretty much telling the anti Olicity peeps that 5x20 is the most Olicity positive Ep to ever Olicity so anything discussed is more then likely in service of reuniting Olicity not creating a further wedge.

As for 5x17. I agree that Olivers confession is just due to mental and physical torture and not an actual statement of any truth about Oliver. Pronetheus/Chase thinks Oliver is a monster/Villan for killing his father so he wants Oliver to believe he is too.

I can also see how Oliver (trying to) shutting down Team Arrow leads into the set up of 5x18 where he calls the Bratva into help. He's backing off but he still calls his friend Anatolyi to get rid of the problem. 

And Oliver quitting even temporarily will lead/allow Felicity to get her self further tied up in Helix. 

[Hiveminder]

It's like this show is being written by bad fanfic writers. There's going to be a time jump before season six so Felicity can go hide out in another city while raising Oliver's secret twins, who everyone but Oliver knows about. There will be much capslock yelling by Oliver and Felicity, and both talk like English is their second language. Oliver will buy a pink engagement ring for the midseason finale, and Felicity will wear a green wedding dress in episode 23, which Oliver will think is super hot. 

Oliver will also call Felicity super hot out loud, and sex scenes will be two episodes long, but, sadly, incredibly unsexy. 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Hiveminder

[Chaser]

2 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

It's like this show is being written by bad fanfic writers. There's going to be a time jump before season six so Felicity can go hide out in another city while raising Oliver's secret twins, who everyone but Oliver knows about. There will be much capslock yelling by Oliver and Felicity, and both talk like English is their second language. Oliver will buy a pink engagement ring for the midseason finale, and Felicity will wear a great wedding dress in episode 23, which Oliver will think is super hot. 

Oliver will also call Felicity super hot out loud, and sex scenes will be two episodes long, but, sadly, incredibly unsexy. 

What?

[catrox14]

Quote

The secret Chase gets Oliver to confess: he killed for enjoyment.

 

Sorry to compare it to SPN SPOILERS FROM S4

I can't help but think of Dean being tortured in Hell for scores of years before he finally couldn't take it anymore and started torturing others to stop his own torture. The narrative eventually had Dean say "liked" it, which really meant he got some relief by pushing his own pain onto someone else. Of course, that lead to a forever existing fuckton of guilt he'll never be free of so that was torture of it's own kind.

IF, IF the show gives us something similar, then I'll accept it. But if this is going to be Oliver Queen is a serial killer who LOVES killing well then I give a pre-emptive  FUCK YOU SHOW . They will have effectively ruined Oliver.

Edited March 21, 2017 by catrox14

[Hiveminder]

Just now, Chaser said:

What?

It's a joke. I was saying some of the ridiculous things that happen in bad fanfic, because that's about the level this show is at if they honestly expect us to believe Oliver likes killing now. 

[Mrs. de Winter]

So he enjoys killing but was happy to hang up the hood and live in the burbs with Felicity.  I guess cooking took the place of killing? 

I am holding on to the confession being about being tortured for now.  His decision to disband the team seems to last one episode given SA already shared that the next episode is Team Arrow versus Team Helix.

I also love the irony that MM come back in an episode where Oliver proclaims he loves killing given the number of times he has failed to kill MM (even when everyone wanted him to). 

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

So he enjoys killing but was happy to hang up the hood and live in the burbs with Felicity.  I guess cooking took the place of killing? 

BUT WHAT WAS HE COOKING DUN DUN DUN

[tangerine95]

Yeah MG saying that doesn't sound great because it will be seriously dumb if they expect people to believe Oliver enjoyed killing all along and it wasn't really about the city or his father and we should just ignore all those you're a good man and hero pep talks Oliver got over the seasons.I think I saw an interview where SA was saying something like Prometheus is trying to sell Oliver something and he buys it and that sounds more in line with it being something Prometheus tortures him into believing.  So I'm still hoping and expecting there's more to it and we're not supposed to take the opinions of a villain about Oliver at face value. 

[LeighAn]

Or- wait till the episode airs before deciding the show is telling us Oliver likes killing?

How many times has Yonku released spoilers that people jump to conclusions is a bad omen and then it turns out to be kinda the opposite. 

Like just last week with the Felicity/morals "spoiler". 

[Chaser]

1 minute ago, Hiveminder said:

It's a joke. I was saying some of the ridiculous things that happen in bad fanfic, because that's about the level this show is at if they honestly expect us to believe Oliver likes killing now. 

Ookay. I thought you were commenting on the Olicity spoilers coming out, not the 'Oliver likes killing' ones.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, tangerine95 said:

Prometheus is trying to sell Oliver something and he buys it and that sounds more in line with it being something Prometheus tortures him into believing.

I think he's referring to the "you ruin everything you love" idea, but I'll be happy if it's both, haha.

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

How many times has Yonku released spoilers that people jump to conclusions is a bad omen and then it turns out to be kinda the opposite. 

I think this quote from MG is what's giving people heartburn in connection with the spoiler, not just the spoiler itself:

Quote

“Our hope is that you will look at Oliver’s killing in a completely different light and look at it in a totally different way. And look at his motivations for killing in a different way, in a more complex, more nuanced way."

That doesn't seem like a "he was tortured into it" confession on the surface, but I certainly hope it is, because if not...yikes.

[Hiveminder]

3 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

So he enjoys killing but was happy to hang up the hood and live in the burbs with Felicity.  I guess cooking took the place of killing? 

He only started cooking as an excuse to kill and butcher the meat himself. He told Felicity it was because they put chemicals in supermarket meat, but really it was the closest he could get to people killin'. 

[dtissagirl]

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Or- wait till the episode airs before deciding the show is telling us Oliver likes killing?

The entire point of this thread is to NOT wait until we know for sure to talk about it endlessly.