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Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

I thought the whole point of the Gambit and what happened after was the radical change it inspired in Oliver but if he was going to mature and become who he is on his own than it feels less meaningful to me. At that point he could have booked a few boxing classes like Laurel and save himself a lot of pain and suffering since it was unnecessary.

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

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bijoux

bijoux

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I think there was a tweet (from GATV?) about how they're explaining Tommy's absence from the wedding rehearsal so I don't think he's dead. 

https://twitter.com/GreenArrowTV/status/803347031913730048

It doesn't sound like he's dead. Probably sowing some wild oates somewhere.

For me, I think it's the two perfect bits that may make Oliver and/or someone else suspicious of their surroundings.

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LeighAn

LeighAn

5 minutes ago, looptab said:

Looks like this is what they're aiming for. Though I'm still reserving judgment - I didn't read the advance review. as of now, I'm not that bothered by that 2Oliver Queen has everything he's ever wanted" because it could very well be referring to dream!Oliver rather than Oliver.

Sad. I hope not. I want to give the writers the benefit of the doubt that it will be an empowering moment for Oliver that will push him life ward by emphatically choosing the life he has as Green Arrow come what may simply because I think that's the best way to honor 100 episodes. If they make it some Emo man pain choice where he wishes he could stay in dream world but knows he can't out of obligation that will just be a whole lot of suck for me. But I wouldn't be shocked.

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LeighAn

LeighAn

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

https://twitter.com/GreenArrowTV/status/803347031913730048

It doesn't sound like he's dead. Probably sowing some wild oates somewhere.

For me, I think it's the two perfect bits that may make Oliver and/or someone else suspicious of their surroundings.

I heard people on Twitter speculating a Chicago Med (is that the name of the show?) shout out by referencing Tommy not being able to attend cause he's become a doctor and has to work .

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looptab

looptab

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Sad. I hope not. I want to give the writers the benefit of the doubt that it will be an empowering moment for Oliver that will push him life ward by emphatically choosing the life he has as Green Arrow come what may simply because I think that's the best way to honor 100 episodes. If they make it some Emo man pain choice where he wishes he could stay in dream world but knows he can't out of obligation that will just be a whole lot of suck for me. But I wouldn't be shocked.

I think the same. I just got that impression from that "if he stays in the dream world, he will fail the city", but I hope that's not how and why he goes back.

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LeighAn

LeighAn

1 minute ago, looptab said:

I think the same. I just got that impression from that "if he stays in the dream world, he will fail the city", but I hope that's not how and why he goes back.

With the way this season has been written I would not discount the writers framing the story through that. But then again at the same time given this is Comic Book.com who say they prefer dream world Oliver (probably because of all the Lauriver) I also wouldn't be surprised if they saw the episode through the frame of Oliver wishes he could stay but only left out of obligation to haha.

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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

8 minutes ago, looptab said:

Looks like this is what they're aiming for. Though I'm still reserving judgment - I didn't read the advance review. as of now, I'm not that bothered by that 2Oliver Queen has everything he's ever wanted" because it could very well be referring to dream!Oliver rather than Oliver.

That's the "messy" part for me. Because real Oliver and the others dream about themselves in a ideal (?) world but it's a what if without being a what if because at the end the characters are themselves since they'll realize the reality is wrong. So that Oliver (and the others) at the beginning, even if he initially doesn't realize something is wrong, that is blissfully happy and has all he has ever wanted is our Oliver trapped in the dream. I don't even know if I made sense, LOL

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looptab

looptab

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it pans out. The sad part is, it's not something I feel I can say "They definitely wouldn't do that!" about, haha.

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

That's the "messy" part for me. Because real Oliver and the others dream about themselves in a ideal (?) world but it's a what if without being a what if because at the end the characters are themselves since they'll realize the reality is wrong. So that Oliver (and the others) at the beginning, even if he initially doesn't realize something is wrong, that is blissfully happy and has all he has ever wanted is our Oliver trapped in the dream. I don't even know if I made sense, LOL

Yeah, I'm lost, hahaha.

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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

1 minute ago, looptab said:

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it pans out. The sad part is, it's not something I feel I can say "They definitely wouldn't do that!" about, haha.

Yeah, I'm lost, hahaha.

They could have made a what if episode or drop the characters in a wrong reality instead they decided to confuse me, fun I guess, hahaha

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tangerine95

tangerine95

I think considering the fact that Oliver seems to have flashes to his real life, we know he does of Felicity but its possible he has them of other characters, they'll probably make that a factor in why he decides to come back as much as saving the city. I'm sure the city will be a factor they focus on the most because there's an immediate threat to it and the world basically and because that's what they've been focusing on all season but I don't think they'll make it like its a sacrifice to come back and Oliver will always wish he could have stayed. I think it will be more about getting closure about the idea of what he could have if he never was the GA and didn't have all the trauma that comes with it. 

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Guest

Guest

Every time someone says this dream scenario is everything Oliver ever wants, my face just screws up in confusion. I mean, I totally get Oliver wanting his loved ones alive but I just don't buy Oliver blissfully in love with Laurel. Sorry! And I don't get how this is Oliver's dream world when it's not even created by him but by aliens. Unless I've misunderstood? I only read an excerpt of that review because it made me changry.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)
26 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Every time someone says this dream scenario is everything Oliver ever wants, my face just screws up in confusion. I mean, I totally get Oliver wanting his loved ones alive but I just don't buy Oliver blissfully in love with Laurel. Sorry! And I don't get how this is Oliver's dream world when it's not even created by him but by aliens. Unless I've misunderstood? I only read an excerpt of that review because it made me changry.

I'm guessing the having everything he ever wanted part is the reviewer's interpretation, and not something that is actually conveyed in the show (unless we get two aliens chatting about the parameters of these dream worlds they're putting everyone into).

And it seems that if it was actually supposed to be everything he's ever wanted then he wouldn't leave it voluntarily regardless of any kind of obligation he feels to the city, so I'm guessing that's not what they're going for here (although it's possible that doesn't translate so well, as is often the case with this show). 

Edited by apinknightmare
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Guest

Guest

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I'm guessing the having everything he ever wanted part is the reviewer's interpretation, and not something that is actually conveyed in the show (unless we get two aliens chatting about the parameters of these dream worlds they're putting everyone into).

And it seems that if it was actually supposed to be everything he's ever wanted then he wouldn't leave it voluntarily regardless of any kind of obligation he feels to the city, so I'm guessing that's not what they're going for here (although it's possible that doesn't translate so well, as is often the case for the people who run this show). 

I hope so because I don't like the implications tbh. I'd want Oliver to want to leave the 'dream world' for more than his obligation to save his city. I want him to leave because of his relationships and connections he's made in the last 4 plus years. But I'm doubtful that's going to happen now. 

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LeighAn

LeighAn

(edited)

I mean this a comic book .com review and they rarely see the show the way the general viewers see the show so I'd put as much stock in their interpretation as I would Craig's at GATV so I'm counting on it just being their bias showing because seriously when has Stephen ever managed to look in love while opposite Katie. 

But again with the gas lighting the writers have been doing this season it can't be 100% ruled out.

Edited by LeighAn
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

It can't be ruled out because there's also the official episode synopsis:

Quote

-- 508 synopsis: "ARROW CELEBRATES 100 EPISODES; THE EPIC SUPERHERO CROSSOVER CONTINUES — Oliver (Stephen Amell) wakes up to a life where he never got on The Queen’s Gambit.  Robert (guest star Jamey Sheridan) and Moira Queen (guest star Susanna Thompson) are alive and well.  Laurel (guest star Katie Cassidy) is his loving fiancée and their wedding is imminent.  Everything seems perfect, but Oliver starts to notice small imperfections that make him question this new reality.  Meanwhile, Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards) and the recruits take on a new threat with help from The Flash (guest star Grant Gustin) and Supergirl (guest star Melissa Benoist).  James Bamford directed the episode with story by Greg Berlanti and written by Marc Guggenheim & Wendy Mericle (ARW508).  Original airdate 11/30/2016." (SpoilerTV article, page 49 of Spoilers thread)

Edited by tv echo
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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

(edited)

How I think the writers probably intend for this to come across: the aliens created a dream world for Oliver based on the premise that The Gambit didn't sail that day and that Oliver gets to have all his dead loved ones back; it's not accurate or logical, but it's supposed to be an idyllic life. Then he will start to twig to the dream-state and realize that this is all "too perfect" and not right, and will work to return to his real life where his other loved ones are (once he remembers them) and where he has a mission, etc.

How I think it will actually come across because the writers are terrible at their jobs: the aliens created a dream world that is Oliver's Perfect and Preferred Life, and while he will come to realize it's not real, he will be devastated to have to leave it, but will do so because of Danger and Duty and Mission.

I agree that the few sites who have reviewed it thus far have some bias or lack of knowledge of the show, but they're all consistently saying the same type of thing and WM said it herself, basically. It's precisely what I would expect to happen if a bunch of hacks with shoddy historical memory of their own show were to write a "what if."

It seems like they probably tried to split the difference between two familiar narrative paths here. One--an actual It's a Wonderful Life scenario, where outcomes follow logically from what we saw of Oliver and others pre-Gambit, which would probably be pretty bleak and would not be a good option for aliens hoping to keep Oliver in that state. Two--an improbable dream scenario that isn't based on reality, but was the aliens' best guess (somehow????) for what Oliver would want. I think they wrote the second, but they are speaking about it as if it's the first, and because some reviewers are seeing it that way as well, I'm guessing it does play that way to some extent. I'm guessing the writers aren't explicit enough about Oliver's feelings and the logistics of this dream state, and therefore it seems like Oliver's perfect and ideal life to a general audience as well.

Anyway, I have no expectation that I will enjoy this episode at all, so now I just wish everyone involved would keep the name of my favorite movie out of their mouths, because it hurts me to see it misused in this way.

Edited by Carrie Ann
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insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

I agree with some of the comments that a lot could have changed in 10 years, so that these characters could have gotten to the point where everything they're saying about them makes sense: Oliver and Thea mature adults, Robert and Moira in a happy marriage, Oliver and Laurel getting married, etc. But I just wonder if they're actually going to address that in the episode or just act like none of the problems that existed before the Gambit ever existed. It must be nice that they can always just explain everything away with "well, aliens" or "well, you're not happy because your preferred couple isn't together." 

I just hope that they do honor the relationships Oliver has made over the past four seasons (and not just in maybe a throwaway scene near the end of the episode) and don't just focus on his relationships with those in the dream world. 

From what I've skimmed of what people who saw the episode are saying, I haven't seen anything about Diggle, Felicity (other than those GATV tweets) or Lance. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I get that it's all about Oliver, but I do want to know what to expect from these other characters who have been around since S1 and are still alive. 

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Guest

Guest

(edited)
15 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

How I think it will actually come across because the writers are terrible at their jobs: the aliens created a dream world that is Oliver's Perfect and Preferred Life, and while he will come to realize it's not real, he will be devastated to have to leave it, but will do so because of Danger and Duty and Mission.

Yeah, this is actually my concern. Or maybe not concern so much as I'm annoyed it will come across this way. Because, IMO, after 4 seasons, Oliver's perfect and preferred life is his family and friends alive and he'd be married to Felicity. Only that's not possible if they're doing a 'what if he never got on the Gambit' scenario so this is all just a little too contrived for my liking. Honestly, this seems more like Laurel's dream world to me. Or maybe even Thea's.

I just really don't like the idea that the only reason Oliver leaves this dream world is because he feels obligated to save the city. It just makes all of his post-Gambit relationships seem a little meaningless to me. I hope it doesn't come across that way.

Edited by Guest
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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

I figure -- if the aliens' plan is to keep Oliver [and the others] trapped in the dreamland, than the dreamland will be presented as "perfect", regardless of what these characters' real ideal of perfection in the real world is. Considering this show, they'll probably be super anvilistic about how ~perfect~ it all is too.

Once Oliver figures out he's in a fake reality... I guess I could see it that how he wants to deal with the fake dead people is to keep the sentiment. Say his goodbyes without crushing them with any sort of "this is wrong" or "I don't belong here". Unless the fake dead people turn evil on him and he has to yell at them/kill them, I expect Oliver to deal with them from this perfect what-if POV all through.

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Chaser

Chaser

16 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Diggle in the GA suit maybe? I remember seeing it in a promo.

Diggle as the GA? I wondered if him in the suit is just his mind trying to wake him up but because of the multiple shots I'm thinking Diggle is the GA in this world. Possibly.

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Chaser

Chaser

34 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I figure -- if the aliens' plan is to keep Oliver [and the others] trapped in the dreamland, than the dreamland will be presented as "perfect", regardless of what these characters' real ideal of perfection in the real world is. Considering this show, they'll probably be super anvilistic about how ~perfect~ it all is too.

Once Oliver figures out he's in a fake reality... I guess I could see it that how he wants to deal with the fake dead people is to keep the sentiment. Say his goodbyes without crushing them with any sort of "this is wrong" or "I don't belong here". Unless the fake dead people turn evil on him and he has to yell at them/kill them, I expect Oliver to deal with them from this perfect what-if POV all through.

I'm picturing Oliver talking to a lot of confused people. His parents being confused as to why he seems so emotional and acts like they haven't been there his whole life. I have no idea what he will say to Laurel, but I'm thinking 4x19 messy. Maybe something about her being the best of him and how sorry he is that he can't stay and give her the life she wants.

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doesntworkonwood

doesntworkonwood

For the record, it would take me wayyy more than ten years to get over a guy cheating on me with my sister, and I would never ever ever get married to him. I don't think 'it's been 10 years' is really an argument that I can buy into, with the way that Oliver and the entire family was then, you'd have to change so much.

I'm not sure if I want to watch all of the episodes in one go over the weekend or to watch them as they come out. The first one means if it's bad, I only get annoyed once, the second one means I'm less likely to turn off because it's in small doses. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

Maybe Laurel never found out that Oliver was cheating on her with Sara.  The other women she seemed ready to forgive.  Or maybe, since it's the Dream World, she loves Oliver soooooo much, she'll forgive it all.

I am preparing myself to be majorly disappointed when it turns out that that Oliver has a perfect love with Laurel but goes back to save his true love, Star City.

On the other hand, I'll tell myself that this perfect world is what the alien is think is Oliver's perfect world, and what do aliens know anyway?  If they knew what's real, they wouldn't be aliens.

Now I want to know if MG and WM are doing anything to prevent Felicity fans from freaking out.  I'm hoping she's pivotal in getting him to realize he is in a dream world but I'm bracing myself for disappointment.

3 hours ago, looptab said:

What about Colton, damn.

I wonder what his "prior commitments" are.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

It sounds to me what we will have is an idealized and very much lobotomized version of a perfect life that might have happened had Oliver (and his dad) not gotten aboard the Gambit and a bunch of other realities are ignored.

 This is the "perfect" version where he and Thea miraculously turned out alright with no explanation and the "perfect" version where his actually is in love with Laurel (as opposed to calling it love because she was the official girlfriend just like his Dad had the official wife but the official titles never stopped them from cheating.)

 Who they were and what they were likely to have done or felt aren't important since the aliens are manipulating both memory and feelings.  All they needed is the feelings and settings to have some basis in reality.  Oliver did on some level love Laurel (badly and probably more when he no longer was romantically involved) and he does miss his parents and has wished for a life without the obligation of the Green Arrow.  

All the little bits are there, but we know they'd never add up to the "perfect" life the aliens are creating, but the elements would be familiar and have enough basis in truth where with the alien manipulation, Oliver and the rest under the mind control wouldn't automatically question it.  

So the fact that he does start questioning the "perfect" life means that even with his memories and emotions being manipulated, Oliver's connection to something or someone is too strong for him to forget, but that doesn't mean that he still wouldn't be legitimately emotional when dealing with all these people that he'd lost, especially when given back to him in the most idealized manner.

 

6 hours ago, looptab said:

Looks like this is what they're aiming for. Though I'm still reserving judgment - I didn't read the advance review. As of now, I'm not that bothered by that "Oliver Queen has everything he's ever wanted" because it could very well be referring to dream!Oliver rather than Oliver.

It has to only be about Dream Oliver since the whole "perfect" scenario is false and couldn't be achieved through simply not getting on the Gambit and it wouldn't be current day Oliver's perfect world anymore anyway.  But current Oliver is who the aliens want erased.  They want him to be a different man, one that wasn't interested in stopping the aliens so it would make much more sense for them to tap into some old fantasy from another life.  I can imagine he'd have clung to a similar dream world when he first got to the island, knowing even then that it was an impossible dream.  

5 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I think considering the fact that Oliver seems to have flashes to his real life, we know he does of Felicity but its possible he has them of other characters, they'll probably make that a factor in why he decides to come back as much as saving the city. I'm sure the city will be a factor they focus on the most because there's an immediate threat to it and the world basically and because that's what they've been focusing on all season but I don't think they'll make it like its a sacrifice to come back and Oliver will always wish he could have stayed. I think it will be more about getting closure about the idea of what he could have if he never was the GA and didn't have all the trauma that comes with it. 

I'm pretty sure I read SA saying that it gives Oliver closure so this sounds right.  

 

4 hours ago, Angel12d said:

 Honestly, this seems more like Laurel's dream world to me. Or maybe even Thea's.

 

   Thea and Sara are there contributing to the dream world as well so it's really pretty reasonable to take in account how their viewpoints would shape Oliver's "perfect" world as well.  Sara probably believes that had she not gone on the Gambit that Laurel would still be alive and maybe even have gotten her HEA, unreasonable as it may have really been, but a fantasy isn't tied to logic.  Same with Thea.  Her perfect world would be to have her parents back and Laurel back and Oliver happy (whether he liked it or not).  

Honestly, I may not like the "perfect" world they come up with, but it's not going to taint my view of Oliver and what he really wants.  

Quote

Gone for a few minutes is gruff and brooding Ollie, and instead we get to the depths of his love for his family and Laurel, his fear, and his heart all on display. Sincerely, more of this Oliver in the future please.

This quote from CB.com makes me roll my eyes.  Oh, so now you want heart eyes Oliver?  But heart eyes and him putting all his feelings and fears on display for Felicity, that's ruining the character and turning the show into a romcom.  

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catrox14

catrox14

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

This quote from CB.com makes me roll my eyes.  Oh, so now you want heart eyes Oliver?  But heart eyes and him putting all his feelings and fears on display for Felicity, that's ruining the character and turning the show into a romcom.  

Seriously. Could they be any more transparent?

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insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

This quote from CB.com makes me roll my eyes.  Oh, so now you want heart eyes Oliver?  But heart eyes and him putting all his feelings and fears on display for Felicity, that's ruining the character and turning the show into a romcom.  

Wow, I don't think I saw that quote when I skimmed the review. So we get the "depth of his love for Laurel" in a dream world where nothing is even real and not even what Oliver really wants? Is the goal of this to feel bad for the real Laurel who never got any of that and, if a universe where Oliver never got on the Gambit and was still with her 10 years later actually existed and wasn't part of some aliens' manipulation, probably wouldn't have anyway? 

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tarotx

tarotx

(edited)

When characters are in Dreamworlds they aren't just who they were before being placed there. They are under the influence of the dream world memories and the emotions that go along with them. Plus Oliver is dealing with characters who are dead in his real life so that will affect him as well.  And his saving the world is the reason he's been placed in the dream, so realizing that he needs to come out for that is just part of him fighting past the dream word intention.  

Edited by tarotx
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LeighAn

LeighAn

That's why Im taking anything comic book . com say with a massive grain of salt because their bias is glaring and the "because comics" hypocrisy when it comes to emotions and romance is also glaring

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bijoux

bijoux

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Maybe Laurel never found out that Oliver was cheating on her with Sara.  The other women she seemed ready to forgive.  Or maybe, since it's the Dream World, she loves Oliver soooooo much, she'll forgive it all.

Ou don't need dream world for that. She forgave him in under six years in the real world.

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calliope1975

calliope1975

I'm still wavering on whether I want to watch. I'm both curious and uninterested. (I contain multitudes.) I do want to see if Amell can temper his NOPE face with Laurel, though. He can't help the anti-chem, but I think he could make the attempt to not look so annoyed in their scenes. But will he???

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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

2 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm still wavering on whether I want to watch. I'm both curious and uninterested. (I contain multitudes.) I do want to see if Amell can temper his NOPE face with Laurel, though. He can't help the anti-chem, but I think he could make the attempt to not look so annoyed in their scenes. But will he???

Oh just watch it! You know you want to!

If you could stomach parts of s4 this will be a walk in the park! And you cam laugh at stank face! It'll be a blast!

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insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

6 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm still wavering on whether I want to watch. I'm both curious and uninterested. (I contain multitudes.) I do want to see if Amell can temper his NOPE face with Laurel, though. He can't help the anti-chem, but I think he could make the attempt to not look so annoyed in their scenes. But will he???

Maybe someone should have told SA that Laurel was Oliver's "great love" before filming the 100th. He would've known what he was supposed to be doing. But then again, it might have made it worse. "Wait, she's my character's great love?!" Confusion, combined with his regular expression in those scenes. 

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LeighAn

LeighAn

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I do too. I was pumped when they mentioned him last year. Doubtful, really. Although not impossible, since there is apparently a mention of a Russian maid opening the mansion door.

When did they mention Walter?

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bijoux

bijoux

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

When did they mention Walter?

He recommended Alex for Oliver campaign manager and I think they mentioned asking him to step in as mayor in 401, when that meeting Lance was at got attacked by Ghosts.

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