Spoiler Discussion Thread

[wonderwall]

31 minutes ago, Chaser said:

See I don't equate sudden popularity with backlash. Backlash would be something like Lexa on The 100. Ratings took a nosedive, major outlets took notice, shrowrunners made statements. Nothing close to that happened here. 

With Laurel, the reactions were pretty much what you would expect from the places you would think. What I mean by sudden popularity is more people looking at the character with rose colored glasses and those anti Arrow using her as their focal point. If that makes sense. 

Also I saw none of the critics talk about how Laurel felt like she was missing in the last handful of episodes nor did I hear them say that they missed her presence. Simple matter is, is that Laurel's going to be forgotten within the general audience by next season and most critics as well and it's mostly due to the fact that Laurel never really had a presence or any semblance of importance to Arrow as a whole. 

Not only that, but I didn't see a dive in ratings after her death (I did see one after Oliver/Felicity breaking up though), I didn't see a spike in the Flash's ratings when she made her debut as Black Siren (instead there was a fall in total viewership), I didn't see any fan outrage at any cons... 

And the series low after Laurel's death in episode 20 (I think?) was due to the Chicago market (the 3rd biggest market) being pre-empted as well as it going up against the Survivor finale. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by wonderwall

[TimetravellingBW]

37 minutes ago, Chaser said:

See I don't equate sudden popularity with backlash. Backlash would be something like Lexa on The 100. Ratings took a nosedive, major outlets took notice, shrowrunners made statements. Nothing close to that happened here. 

With Laurel, the reactions were pretty much what you would expect from the places you would think. What I mean by sudden popularity is more people looking at the character with rose colored glasses and those anti Arrow using her as their focal point. If that makes sense. 

 

11 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Also I saw none of the critics talk about how Laurel felt like she was missing in the last handful of episodes nor did I hear them say that they missed her presence. Simple matter is, is that Laurel's going to be forgotten within the general audience by next season and most critics as well and it's mostly due to the fact that Laurel never really had a presence or any semblance of importance to Arrow as a whole. 

Not only that, but I didn't see a dive in ratings after her death (I did see one after Oliver/Felicity breaking up though), I didn't see a spike in the Flash's ratings when she made her debut as Black Siren, I didn't see any fan outrage at any cons... 

And the series low after Laurel's death in episode 20 (I think?) was due to the Chicago market (the 3rd biggest market) being pre-empted as well as it going up against the Survivor finale. 

Maybe backlash was the wrong phrase. I was surprised at the amount of anger over Laurel's death, though it was less from critics and more from fans. Obviously there will always be anger when a character dies, but it was more than I expected given how criticized Laurel's been over the last four years.

But I agree with @Chaser that LL has been more of a focal point for anti-Arrow feeling. Growing complaints about the direction of the show  - Felicity's prominence, Olicity angst, poor pacing, plotholes less interesting stunts, killing off women, Oliver being less badass - have all rallied around LL's death as the point the show has "jumped the shark" even if they didn't care for her much before. It doesn't help that the show did drop in quality after S2 imo, but most of those problems (Olicity drama, pacing, plot holes) have nothing to do with LL and some of them (less interesting stunts, Oliver being less badass) were because of her. Then there's anger over deviating from comics, but that was always going to be there. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[wonderwall]

It's imperative to remember that the fandom (everyone that goes here, twitter, tumblr, reddit, IMDB, etc.) only represent a very small percentage of the viewership. Last study I saw said it was about 5-8%. So fans online don't represent the entire fandom. And it's interesting to look at the hate and the contents of the hateful tweets. Because in the beginning of the season, almost everyone of us were sure that Laurel was safe because of her comic pedigree. And now Arrow has made a statement about how it definitely doesn't follow the comics and that's definitely bound to ruffle feathers.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah, we, as the online fandom, are definitely the minority and I don't even think there was that strong of a reaction to Laurel's death in itself. Critics talked about it mostly as a example of the way women are treated on television and on some shows in particular and with the fandom I think it's mostly a case of turning on the show runners as it always happens.

Also I know they named her Dinah Laurel Lance but the only thing she shared with Dinah IMO was the name. Sara was different as well but closer to who that character was (and I also don't buy they introduced Sara with the idea of killing her for Laurel from the beginning and if she had a better reception she would have been the BC, period.) I remember someone on here saying that Laurel seems based on Racher Dawes and I think that's very accurate. So I don't give any merit to the argument of Laurel being important on Arrow because she was the BC and the whole GA/BC destined to be together forever and always thing because those two and their relationship doesn't seem based on GA/BC anyway. Arrow hasn't followed the comics from the beginning and Laurel is just another example but either people are catching up now or it's just an argument like another to hate on the show. I'm tempted to go with the second option.

[dtissagirl]

6 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Growing complaints about the direction of the show  - Felicity's prominence, Olicity angst, poor pacing, plotholes less interesting stunts, killing off women, Oliver being less badass - have all rallied around LL's death as the point the show has "jumped the shark" even if they didn't care for her much before.

I really think the reaction to Laurel's death was exactly what was expected by TPTB in terms of fandom.  And in pro critics/general media, she ended up being a part of that awful week when a whole bunch of female characters died, and so they mentioned her... but nobody really focused on her the way they did on Abbie Mills.

There's something we always need to have in mind: we are actively participating in fandom spaces. So we see more of the reaction to anything. Showrunners, networks, studios are not monitoring fandom spaces -- they are monitoring social media in general. If their social media intern took a good look at Twitter content after Laurel's death, there was a significant part of it that was "yay she's gone wheee!". And the negative response died down super quickly. If you're still seeing a lot of negative response [especially the stuff that's equating Laurel dying to Oliver/Felicity], it's because you are participating in fandom. TPTB aren't.

[tv echo]

You know what's funny?  Official spoilers for S5 have been all about villains (or potential villains) while official spoilers for the new GA comics have been all about romance.  Yet it's the TV show that's supposed to be the soap opera.

ETA: I just posted a Hypable article in the Starling City Times thread that breaks down 2016 TV character deaths, in which Laurel is not even included among the most controversial deaths.

Edited June 6, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

37 minutes ago, tv echo said:

You know what's funny?  Official spoilers for S5 have been all about villains (or potential villains) while official spoilers for the new GA comics have been all about romance.  Yet it's the TV show that's supposed to be the soap opera.

The focus on GA/BC in the new comics is less about selling romance to comic book readers, and more about strategic marketing to revert the new52 mandate, without anyone at DC Comics saying "we were so wrong it's pathetic." The new52 destroyed every long standing relationships that existed prior. Dan Didio spent awhile there telling folks that romance was dumb in many different ways, and the fanboys ate it up. They equated relationships/marriage = happiness, and the new52 mandate was nobody was gonna be happy. Hence breaking up Lois/Clark and Barry/Iris. Except it failed. And now they need to revert that mandate and make the fanboys get it that HOPE is the thing DC Comics is all about now. Romance is a no brainer to link to the new "hope" mandate.

And particularly to GA/BC, and why their romance is being singled out in marketing -- it's the first week of Rebirth, and none of the other #1 books out of the gate so far had recognizable comic book couples romance in them. This was the one.

[tv echo]

Then I assume that we'll hear no complaints about hope and romance on Arrow going forward "because comics."

[dtissagirl]

50 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Then I assume that we'll hear no complaints about hope and romance on Arrow going forward "because comics."

You'll hear complaints if you want to. I don't. Those complaints live in fandom land, that's not pro media nor what TPTB say. Any commentary on what Arrow does or doesn't do that stems from comparing it to what the comics do or don't is pretty irrelevant to Arrow itself. It matters to fandom because it's what fandom does. But business decisions + the reality of television production >>>>>>>> whatever DC Comics is doing in the comics.

Edited June 6, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tv echo]

I was including pro media (and other media) because complaints about romance and deviating from comics on Arrow exist there as well. But I get the rest of your post.  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy? irony? whatever.

[dtissagirl]

There are levels of how criticism matters to Hollywood. The media that covers Arrow from the comic book standpoint [CBR, IGN, Newsarama] is definitely being read by the showrunners, because they are comic book fanboys. But the network/studio are not as interested, as they are in what's on the big five [THR, Variety, EW, TVLine, TVGuide/TV Insider], and what the ~prestigious~ criticism [Hitfix, Vulture, NPR, New Yorker, AVClub, Salon, Slate, etc] are saying.

Network/studio >>>>> showrunners.

I guess my main point in this is -- criticism that matters to fandom has nothing to do with criticism that matters to the people making the show. Lexa's death will impact the future of The 100 in massive ways because of the criticism it got. The Because Comics criticism re: Arrow doesn't seem to make any dent on the writing of the show.

Edited June 6, 2016 by dtissagirl

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Hi guys

You've jumping back and forth across the ok fan talk/bad fan talk line right now.   As a guideline, it's ok to talk about how the Arrow showrunners react to critic feedback and, to a lesser extent, how they react to "fan reaction."   It's not ok to complain about being tired of hearing about other fans complaining about or reacting to plot points.   I know its a bit of a grey area, but you've generally been greatly improved in this area.  Please keep it up and try to self moderate. 

And as an incentive/thank you, a Bulldog Pool Party!  

[Starfish35]

Happy puppies. :)

[TimetravellingBW]

Nawww

[SmallScreenDiva]

A discussion about the confusion on who moved out over in the Social Media thread had me thinking about Oliver's housing situation in S5. As mayor of the city, he's gonna have 24/7 security detail. His residence would also need to be secured. I very much doubt he's gonna bring his security down to the bunker. So, will there be a new set for him? Or will the show just ignore that detail because Oliver & Felicity will probably get back together sooner rather than later? I'm betting on no new set. 

Hilarious thought: If Thea is out gallivanting and finding herself, her apartment is going to be vacant. I'm gonna fall off the couch if they have Oliver stay at you know who's old place :P

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Hilarious thought: If Thea is out gallivanting and finding herself, her apartment is going to be vacant. I'm gonna fall off the couch if they have Oliver stay at you know who's old place :P

He'll probably stay at she who must not be named's place to feel closer to her or some bullshit like that :p

[lemotomato]

They'll probably just avoid showing Oliver at home. The show only uses the residence sets when doing family and couples scenes, so Oliver could hang out with the Diggle/Thea/Felicity at their places. Between being mayor and GA, he's probably not spending a lot of time at home anyway. 

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

They'll probably just avoid showing Oliver at home. The show only uses the residence sets when doing family and couples scenes, so Oliver could hang out with the Diggle/Thea/Felicity at their places. Between being mayor and GA, he's probably not spending a lot of time at home anyway. 

If Oliver's going to stay at his campaign office (which I don't know why he would but this is Arrow where nothing makes sense) maybe one of his staff members (a random extra) will make a cute statement about how Oliver never leaves the office and maybe he sleeps there or something...:p

[BkWurm1]

Is it too much to hope they would just permanently redress Laurel's apartment? Maybe move a wall?

[thegirlsleuth]

They made a point of smashing the lair to bits.  Wonder if they are going to change that up as well. With Felicity not at Palmer Tech it becomes a combined lair/lab for Felicity (and Curtis), sort of like Star Labs.

Maybe Star City has a mayor's mansion, like New York City?  I think the show could use a little grandiose opulance.

[kismet]

I feel like we had this conversation last year when he started running of for Mayor. Do Mayors all have police details? I don't think the Mayor of my town does, but there is definitely one for the bigger City next door. I'm not sure about a Mayor residence. The other mayor next door had been Mayor for so long, I don't even remember if they have one because he definitely chose to live in his own house until he left office. And this new mayor is just not charismatic enough for me to care where he lives. At the rate the Mayors are dying in SC, I doubt the police even want to bother with a 24/7 detail to keep them alive. If anything I bet OQ will just claim his personal security can protect him. Maybe he'll move in with Rob from s1. :)

I seriously think OQ will be living in the Loft by the next time they need to show homely scene. I don't want to bet on it (because I'm feeling a little hat-intolerant tonight). But I almost guarantee his housing situation will be resolved sooner than the 100th episode or be a non-issue.

[wonderwall]

7 minutes ago, kismet said:

I seriously think OQ will be living in the Loft by the next time they need to show homely scene. I don't want to bet on it (because I'm feeling a little hat-intolerant tonight). But I almost guarantee his housing situation will be resolved sooner than the 100th episode or be a non-issue.

WHAT?!

 

[kismet]

Sorry @wonderwall, I know how serious the hat eating is for these bets. :) I just can't risk having to eat a hat over a housing situation. It's just not good for my digestion, not with the way ARROW is so willy-nilly about residences these days :)

[Password]

I am genuinely confused about the Felicity-Palmer Tech thing now. EBR said Felicity stayed for Palmer Tech but Palmer Tech fired her and had her escorted off the premises. 

What? So is Felicity an employee now without the CEO status? Why was she escorted away? I assume she'll use Palmer Tech to rebuild Star City but... How? 

[looptab]

Maybe she meant that Felicity will try and regain control of PalmerTech?

[lexicon]

Yeah that part confused me too. Since she said she stayed for PT then should we expect to see that she's been working to get it back during the hiatus? And is that just EBR's headcanon or meant to be the actual reason bcos I've got to say I had no idea she was so invested in PT. To me, her staying in the finale was more because she didn't actively have a reason to go, unlike the others who desperately needed the time and space from the Team ymmv.

[theacostov]

I remember at COH2, Emily said that it was explained to her that she still owns Palmer Tech even though she isn't the CEO. So I guess she will still have involvement and that's why she stayed? I don't know. The new guy they're casting (I want to say James?) could be the new CEO maybe? I don't understand business on this show.  

[TwistedandBored]

1 hour ago, theacostov said:

I remember at COH2, Emily said that it was explained to her that she still owns Palmer Tech even though she isn't the CEO. So I guess she will still have involvement and that's why she stayed? I don't know. The new guy they're casting (I want to say James?) could be the new CEO maybe? I don't understand business on this show.  

Neither do they. 

[Morrigan2575]

AFAIK, that's actually one of the few things the show got right. As majority share holder she still "owns" PT. However, PT is a publicly traded company  and, has a Board of Directors. The CEO is directly accountable to the Board and can be hired/fired by them.

They fired Felicity as CEO but she still owns the majority of shares in the company. 

[BkWurm1]

So Bamford is already on the slate of directors directing next season.  Not surprising really and at this point I hope he directs a lot so he can quickly get better and better.  He's not going anywhere so might as well root for him to do well. 

[tv echo]

But doesn't the majority shareholder of a company have the power to elect, fire and replace the board members? (puzzled)

[kismet]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So bamford is already on the slate of directors directing next season.  Not surprising really and at this point I hope he directs a lot so he can quickly get better and better.  He's not going anywhere so might as well root for him to do well. 

Perhaps we might get new stunt coordinator,  while he Is busy with directing, so the stunts can look fresh again. Could be good things from It

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

But doesn't the majority shareholder of a company have the power to elect, fire and replace the board members? (puzzled)

Well it just depends on the company. Either shareholders get one vote per share which means, Felicity being the majority shareholder would win... Or each board member gets just one vote which means Felicity would lose depending on how the votes went.

[AyChihuahua]

10 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

AFAIK, that's actually one of the few things the show got right. As majority share holder she still "owns" PT. However, PT is a publicly traded company  and, has a Board of Directors. The CEO is directly accountable to the Board and can be hired/fired by them.

They fired Felicity as CEO but she still owns the majority of shares in the company. 

I don't think it is publicly-traded. Ray seemingly just bought it, which would imply private. And private companies still have shareholders and BoDs, etc.

Really, you'd need to look at the corporate bylaws and the state of incorporation to know for sure how she could fix this. I feel relatively confident, though, that IRL she'd be able to replace the BoD with loyalists who would vote her back in as CEO, even if it took a little while.

[wonderwall]

4 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I don't think it is publicly-traded. Ray seemingly just bought it, which would imply private. And private companies still have shareholders and BoDs, etc.

Really, you'd need to look at the corporate bylaws and the state of incorporation to know for sure how she could fix this. I feel relatively confident, though, that IRL she'd be able to replace the BoD with loyalists who would vote her back in as CEO, even if it took a little while.

Ray didn't buy Palmer Tech, he bought the company that Felicity was working for. PT already existed long before he bought Tech Village. 

I thought it was publicly-traded... I may be remembering this wrong but I thought I heard one of the characters talking about how the stock has been plummeting either in season 3 or season 4. Not sure though. 

[AyChihuahua]

Private corporations have shares, which could be called stock, too. They're even subject to a lot of the same securities laws. 

Personally, I think QC was public, but I'm not at all sure about PT, of which former QC is now a part (or maybe not, bc we don't even know if Ray gave Felicity ALL of PT or just the part that was QC, and we don't know how he effected that transfer, bc I have to tell you, just giving her stock worth billions of dollars would have a gift tax that would make you faint).

Mostly, I think it's impossible to figure out, both bc we don't have enough information, and bc what information we have is inconsistent and often insane. I think I started whatevs-ing the whole thing in S2, when the billionaire Queens somehow lost "everything." While that is not impossible, it is approximately as likely as me being eaten by a shark whilst I stand in my kitchen in Indiana typing this sentence. 

Edited June 12, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[SmallScreenDiva]

Ray bought QC (the old guy told Felicity and Oliver there was another bidder S3 E1). That implied to me it was privately held. But in the 3rd ep, Ray was telling Gerry (Felicity's assistant) that the QC stocks opened $10 higher ("That's love!"), which means publicly traded. QC became part of Palmer Tech in the 7th ep. So basically it's whatever the heck the writers need it to be during a particular scene :P

Edited June 12, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[foreverevolving]

16 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

All I can say is.. I saw the wiki picture.. and I thought to myself: holy shit they are bringing A version of Casey Jones over from TNMT! instead of a hockey stick he has an assault rifle. lol!

If this is true this character needs to kick ass! because no one know who this guy is, and he looks (costume wise) like Casey Jones- so people will compare the two. cause you know.. they will.

Edited June 15, 2016 by foreverevolving

[kismet]

I know its early to complain or worry about the new characters, but I don't like the wording of the Abrams article posted in the spoilers section claiming that OQ is going to take Mad Dog under his wing. Hopefully it's just a one on/one off like Wildcat (I know he was in more, but really only 1 ep was important). I'm done having to care about new people. I just want stories about the actual regulars. I don't need to see OQ mentoring anybody. Or if so maybe they should just have not killed off people for the past 4 years. 

[apinknightmare]

I wonder if this dude is going to be this year's Jessica Danforth, who we speculated about for pages and pages (and even discussed whether or not she could be Diggle's mom, lmao) who wound up being in the show for a grand total of about 10 minutes, haha. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

(In Ben Stein's voice) Yipee! Another mask. Another dude in the lair. Can't wait.

(Back to regular voice) The article said multiple episodes, so definitely not like Danforth.  But someone Oliver takes under his wing? With talk that Roy is coming back, isn't the mentee role already filled? (There's also Thea) Plus, Curtis waiting in the wings to be "Terrific."

 

[Morrigan2575]

12 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I wonder if this dude is going to be this year's Jessica Danforth, who we speculated about for pages and pages (and even discussed whether or not she could be Diggle's mom, lmao) who wound up being in the show for a grand total of about 10 minutes, haha. 

With this group? Undoubtedly.  I expect 10 pages before noon tomorrow on this development ?

[wonderwall]

Well... He has the potential to be a Ted Grant too lol By that I mean not much screentime/presence

Plus I like the casting! Enjoyed Timo Cruz :)

Edited June 15, 2016 by wonderwall

[way2interested]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

The article said multiple episodes, so definitely not like Danforth.  

I'm still wary when articles report "multiple episodes" so early in the game, since the writers are probably just now haven't even completed the working draft for 501. "Multiple episodes" might just refer to his contract, but even Anarky's "multiple episodes" just ended up being 402, 410, 421, and 422.

[Proteus]

Isn't the new adversary "James" that's a series regular supposed to be a vigilantee too?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Proteus

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Isn't the new adversary "James" that's a series regular supposed to be a vigilantee too?

No, i don't believe so.  This is the description for James

Quote

Arrow Looks for Mysterious New Role

 

Legends of Tomorrow's parent show, Arrow, is also adding a significant role for next season. TVLine reports that Arrowis casting the role of "James" (which is likely a placeholder) to be somewhat of a mirror image of Oliver. "James" is described as a contemporary of Oliver Queen, roughly the same age but Arrow is open to any ethnicity. James is described as being able to "just as easily shake your hand as your best friend or break your neck as your worst enemy -- and you never know which one is coming." This description makes it pretty clear if "James" isn't the main villain of season 5, he will at least be a significant one. 

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

(Back to regular voice) The article said multiple episodes, so definitely not like Danforth. 

I know he's coming on for multiple episodes - I was mainly thinking that there would be a lot of time devoted to worrying about another mask being added, and this dude taking up screen time that we think should go elsewhere when it ultimately won't amount to much at all. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Poor Roy, Oliver will find another mentee even if he promised he wasn't going to abandon him. Liar. *SOBS*

[Chaser]

That does sound like Roy 2.0.

I'm guessing he is going to have a thing with Thea too.

[lemotomato]

I'd rather have a Roy 2.0 than a BC 3.0 4.0

Edited June 16, 2016 by lemotomato