Castiel: A Multi-Dimensional Wavelength Of Celestial Intent

[SueB]

Well, he was suffering from Famine at the time, but he said the hamburgers made him very happy.  I remember that smile.  

[catrox14]

 Cas did  laugh in the end verse. I guess he was mostly human by then though.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 Cas did  laugh in the end verse. I guess he was mostly human by then though.

I thought he laughed in the end verse, but I wanted to give the ep a rewatch before posting! 

I guess we just need to get Cas stoned to make him laugh haha

[catrox14]

Cas laughed a few times in that episode. Not deep belly laughs but a few sardonic chuckles and chortles.

[Wayward Son]

So I've seen a lot of discussion lately about which writers are good at writing for Sam and Dean especially in the "Bitch" vs "Jerk" thread! 

It got me thinking... who is everyone's favourite and least favourite Castiel writers? 

My long term favourite of the current team is Robert Berens. Yockey and Perez have also impressed me! My overall favourite writer ever was Ben Edlund whose love for Cas came across in his writing IMO. I also enjoyed Robbie Thompsons portrayal of him.

My current least favourite would be BuckLemming. Although they are my least favourite overall so that's not surprising. Overall, Sera Gamble would be my least favourite considering her horrific treatment of him in seasons 6 and 7.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My long term favourite of the current team is Robert Berens. Yockey and Perez have also impressed me! My overall favourite writer ever was Ben Edlund whose love for Cas came across in his writing IMO. I also enjoyed Robbie Thompsons portrayal of him.

My stance has always been the Edlund wrote all characters well, so yeah, he'd probably be my favorite Cass writer given that he wrote The End, The Man Who Would Be King, Reading is Fundamental and The Greatest Escapist. Those four episodes really show off Cass's many facets, IMO. I was never a Robbie Thompson enthusiast, myself.

TBH, except for the Horrible Duo, I personally don't see a big difference between the current writers as far as characterization goes. This season has, by far, been the most consistent than it has been in years, IMO.

[catrox14]

I agree DDD that Edlund wrote them all well. I think Edlund wrote Cas and  Dean/Cas relationship quite well.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

My stance has always been the Edlund wrote all characters well, so yeah, he'd probably be my favorite Cass writer given that he wrote The End, The Man Who Would Be King, Reading is Fundamental and The Greatest Escapist. Those four episodes really show off Cass's many facets, IMO. I was never a Robbie Thompson enthusiast, myself.

TBH, except for the Horrible Duo, I personally don't see a big difference between the current writers as far as characterization goes. This season has, by far, been the most consistent than it has been in years, IMO.

Yeah, I definitely agree about Edlund. He was the best Cas writer and one of the best overall in my opinion. I love The End, The Man Who Would Be King and Reading is Fundamental. I loathe The Great Escapist and consider it one of the worst on the show for Castiel. The implications of the retcon they introduced to his character made me uncomfortable. Plus, I feel it took away from his history on the show so far. Throughout the course of season four we got to see how an angel who started off as the good little soldier, obedient to the host, ultimately learnt to care for Dean and rebelled for his sake and the sake of humanity. Personally, I feel like a lot of that journey was belitted by the "he's always been a rebel retcon".

I'd have to agree on the overall quality of the writers this season. I am intrigued to see how Glynn handles him later in the season. Although I get the impression (based on the fact he didn't star in any of her episodes and its likely she was placed on ep 19 last minute) she has replaced Adam Glass as the writer who doesn't write him (for whatever reason) and focuses on the brothers instead.

 

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I agree DDD that Edlund wrote them all well. I think Edlund wrote Cas and  Dean/Cas relationship quite well.

Agreed! With the exception of the episode I mentioned above he always wrote the Dean!Cas dynamic wonderfully! He was definitely one of the greatest proponents for that pairing in my opinion :)

Edited March 6, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Personally, I feel like a lot of that journey was belitted by the "he's always been a rebel retcon".

Quote

Naomi: You're the famous spanner in the works. Honestly, I think you came off the line with a crack in your chassis. You have never done what you were told. Not completely. You don't even die right, do you? Where is the angel tablet, Castiel?

I never took that as a blanket retcon for the character as much as it was Naomi having an agenda. IMO that was her playing mind games to reduce the importance Dean/humanity had in Cas' bellion because she knew Dean was the fly in her ointment. If Cas thinks his chassis was broken all along then Dean's influence would not be that great. Obviously, she was wrong because Dean still got through to Cas even as Cas was programmed to kill him. 

[Wayward Son]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I never took that as a blanket retcon for the character as much as it was Naomi having an agenda. IMO that was her playing mind games to reduce the importance Dean/humanity had in Cas' bellion because she knew Dean was the fly in her ointment. If Cas thinks his chassis was broken all along then Dean's influence would not be that great. Obviously, she was wrong because Dean still got through to Cas even as Cas was programmed to kill him. 

Honestly, I didn't get the impression Naomi's speech had anything to do with Dean in particular. By the time they had this conversation not only had Castiel already broken away from her mind control, but he had set himself on a different path to Dean by appointing himself as guardian of the tablet against all including the Winchester's. Remember they had this exchange, at the end of the Crypt Scene in Goodbye Stranger, 

Quote

CASTIEL "I don't know. I just know that I have to protect this tablet now."

DEAN "From Naomi?"

CASTIEL "Yes. And from you."

Plus, if we look at the overall conversation you quote from, the issue of Castiel's nature is only brought up when they discuss the purpose of Angels.

Quote

CASTIEL: "We were supposed to be their shepherds, not their murderers."

NAOMI: "Not always, angel. There was that day, back in Egypt, not so long ago, where we slew every first-born infant whose door wasn't splashed with lamb's blood. And that was just PR."

CASTIEL: "Well, I wasn't there."

NAOMI: "Oh, you were there. You just don't remember it."

CASTIEL: "How— how many times have you torn into my head and washed it clean?"

NAOMI:  "Frankly? Too damn many."

NAOMI snaps her fingers to make one of the chairs slide over to her. She sits down.

NAOMI: "You're the famous spanner in the works. Honestly, I think you came off the line with a crack in your chassis. You have never done what you were told. Not completely. You don't even die right, do you? Where is the angel tablet, Castiel?"

CASTIEL: "In the words of a— good friend... bite me."

NAOMI: "Oh, we'll bite. Don't worry. [to her ANGELS] Go. Search all these Biggerson's. He must have hidden it along the way."
 

In my opinion we were supposed to accept Naomi's words as fact. Her general demeanour matches that of someone speaking of a genuine long term grievance. Plus there has been nothing since to suggest that her words weren't true. 

In my opinion Ben Edlund was genuinely trying to add the retcon to highlight the unique nature of Castiel. He wanted fans to be able to root for the rebel that always was and understand that Cas has always been inclined to place humanity before the host. However, in his zest to celebrate the "little rebel" he (or Carver depending on where this idea came from) failed to consider the implications it had on the storylines that came before it. Season Four presented Castiel's journey as the soldier who was inspired by the righteous nature of Dean into giving up everything he knew in favour of Dean and humanity. It made his friendship with Dean one of the most defining points of his life. Now that has essentially been reduced to "Oh, look it's Castiel rebelling again" as his actions were but one of several occasions where he acted in a manner that required his "head being washed clean". 

It's for that reason, along with the fact that apparently we didn't get to see the real Cas for nearly a season, that I was deeply upset after The Great Escapist first aired. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

In my opinion Ben Edlund was genuinely trying to add the retcon to highlight the unique nature of Castiel. He wanted fans to be able to root for the rebel that always was and understand that Cas has always been inclined to place humanity before the host. However, in his zest to celebrate the "little rebel" he (or Carver depending on where this idea came from) failed to consider the implications it had on the storylines that came before it. Season Four presented Castiel's journey as the soldier who was inspired by the righteous nature of Dean into giving up everything he knew in favour of Dean and humanity. It made his friendship with Dean one of the most defining points of his life. Now that has essentially been reduced to "Oh, look it's Castiel rebelling again" as his actions were but one of several occasions where he acted in a manner that required his "head being washed clean". 

See, this is one of those times very rare times where I feel the retcon--because it is a retcon--actually opens up new possibilities and doesn't tear down what came before. 

Naomi says, "You have never done what you were told. Not completely." Which says to me that Cass always followed his orders, but didn't always believe in his orders. Which I think is actually consistent with who Cass was at the beginning of S4. He has questions, but puts faith in his orders being righteous in the end. So, he still needs Dean to get him to act. And, he still needs Dean in order to stand up to Raphael in S6, to overcome the Leviathan influence, to survive Purgatory; he needs Dean for everything that came after.

IMO, Castiel has been attempting to live by Dean's example since he met Dean, just not always doing it successfully. So, whether or not he had sympathies before Dean, changes nothing to me, because he was never inspired to do anything about them until he met Dean. In a way, it almost makes Dean's influence on Cass even more import.

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

It's for that reason, along with the fact that apparently we didn't get to see the real Cas for nearly a season, that I was deeply upset after The Great Escapist first aired. 

I also am weird in that I think Gamble was very ballsy in keeping Cass off screen for so much of S7 and the story was stronger for it in the end. Not because I didn't want to see Cass, but because, unlike Bobby, when Cass returns, that moment feels totally earned. It's the whole absence-makes-the-heart-grow-fonder effect. I also think it was smart of her to keep Baby off-screen too.

[Wayward Son]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, this is one of those times very rare times where I feel the retcon--because it is a retcon--actually opens up new possibilities and doesn't tear down what came before. 

Naomi says, "You have never done what you were told. Not completely." Which says to me that Cass always followed his orders, but didn't always believe in his orders. Which I think is actually consistent with who Cass was at the beginning of S4. He has questions, but puts faith in his orders being righteous in the end. So, he still needs Dean to get him to act. And, he still needs Dean in order to stand up to Raphael in S6, to overcome the Leviathan influence, to survive Purgatory; he needs Dean for everything that came after.

IMO, Castiel has been attempting to live by Dean's example since he met Dean, just not always doing it successfully. So, whether or not he had sympathies before Dean, changes nothing to me, because he was never inspired to do anything about them until he met Dean. In a way, it almost makes Dean's influence on Cass even more import.

I also am weird in that I think Gamble was very ballsy in keeping Cass off screen for so much of S7 and the story was stronger for it in the end. Not because I didn't want to see Cass, but because, unlike Bobby, when Cass returns, that moment feels totally earned. It's the whole absence-makes-the-heart-grow-fonder effect. I also think it was smart of her to keep Baby off-screen too.

Bit in Bold 1: I see it differently. In my opinion he must have done something rebellious; be it stirring up trouble by openly questioning the orders given, or out right refusing to obey them until Naomi 're educated' him. I don't think they'd go to the extreme of wiping his memories of Egypt just because of a few internal questions. The same way they didn't take him up to heaven for brainwashing during season four until he showed signs of actively rebelling i.e revealing the Angels true agenda to Dean. So I do think Dean pushed him into action during season 4 only now this wasn't the first time he rebelled. 

Bit in Bold 2: I was actually referring to the fact that IMO the Cas we met in early season 4 doesn't really fit with the eternal rebel he was retconned to be unless he was initially nice and brainwashed. Here's some thoughts I posted at the time the episode aired. Just because I think they still best express why I had a visceral initial reaction to the episode. 

 

Quote

As those of you who have ever discussed the character of Castiel in depth with me will know I have taken the time to examine everything we know about the character and establish what I consider to be a strong head canon that even explains key weaknesses such as the characters tendency to make bad decisions such as working with Crowley back in season six, or arguably his abandonment of Dean when they arrived in purgatory at the end of Survival of the Fittest. It was for this reason that I found the reveal that Naomi’s wiping of Castiel’s mind when he got out of line not only predates this season, but preludes his first appearance back in Lazarus Rising deeply upsetting. The imagery Naomi gives in the quote above of Castiel always being a rebellious angel, an angel who could never truly follow an order given, does not fit with the Castiel we were introduced to at the beginning of season four unless that Castiel was under the control of Naomi. After all, if you think about it, the Castiel we were introduced to was given a very important task i.e. to raise the righteous man from hell and guide him towards playing his role in the upcoming apocalypse. The Castiel we were shown in earlier appearances was self-assured filled with a sense of righteousness as he believed that he was following the will of God. This in no way tracks with the rebellious angel Castiel was said to have always been, but it does fit perfectly with the type of angel Naomi would have wanted him to become after messing with his mentality, which is what I found so upsetting.

If there is a chance that the Castiel we were first introduced to was a fake then how much of the on screen development that I’ve been watching for the last five years was actually real? Who is the real Castiel? Is the Castiel we saw in season six that worked with Crowley and caused a massacre of epic proportions back in Meet the New Boss what he looks like without any heavenly intervention? How much of his interactions with the brothers, in particular Dean is real? These were the existential questions that went through my mind for days after watching the episode. They made me feel as though the link I had established with Castiel had just been brutally severed by the most blunt instrument possible. It will be a long time before I forgive Edlund for making me doubt Castiel in such a way. I feel that what I referred to while analysing the discussion about purity between Sam and Dean applies here also, once again Edlund chose to go with the flashiest story-telling device without considering the long-term effect of his choice. What makes it even more unfortunate is that he could have easily tied it into earlier in the characters history using what we have already seen on the show by stating that he was sent to Naomi for the first time back in The Rapture and that his subsequent behaviour from the end of that episode until his eventual decision to side with the Winchester’s in Lucifer Rising was actually the viewer getting to see for the first time Castiel fighting for control and winning against his oppressors for the first time. Sadly though, Edlund opted for the more damaging route.

P.S: I'm afraid I completely disagree on the issue of Sera's treatment of Castiel in season seven, but that's more bitterness territory haha 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Wayward Son]

For anyone interested in such things next episode will be Misha's 100th credited episode with the show! He will have starred in 98 episodes, received a voice credit for one (Baby) and directed an episode (Mother's Little Helper).

Im hoping the fact that next episode is said to focus heavily on Cas means we might get a special episode to celebrate the fact. 

Probably not but a boy can dream right?

[sarthaz]

Rewatching "The Vessel", and now I want to rename the thread: Grim Face of Angelic Constipation

[SueB]

I've been doing a S12 rewatch and in prep for the upcoming episode, I'm providing some thoughts on Cas's arc in S12 (just prior to me likely being proven wrong by tonight's episode... but hey, why not?)

Themes for Cas:

1) Winchesters MUST LIVE. It's become his Prime Directive.  He's always looked out for them but now, it seems more essential than ever that they live.  I think this is in part due to his continue lack of self-worth.  I think he now sees his goal is to keep them alive so THEY can save people.  Plus, he's been very public about them being his family. Finally, he killed Billie and stated MULTIPLE times that HE would pay the consequences or deal with the fallout.  He thinks he's transferred the 'cosmic consequences' to himself (and him alone). And he's absolutely unrepentant for it.

2) Cas feels the need for redemption.  In "Stuck in the Middle" they were running what sounds like a Buddy Boyle radio show and it's all about being judged for our deeds when we die.  Add to that the way Isham talked to him in "Lily Saunders" and the way he essentially offered up his life to Lily at the end of the episode.  Oddly, he has zero sense of redemption needed for killing Billie.  I think that's because he looks at anything that fulfills his personal Prime Directive as being justified.  But the LONGING on his face when Kelvin said all would be forgiven.  That was real.  Cas also looked HIGHLY dubious that this trip to Heaven would work out, but I think his need for redemption was so strong that he was willing to take the chance.  

3) Cas expects to die. Soon.  He's already given his goodbye speech to the Winchesters.  He's fatalistic in just about EVERYTHING he says or does.  There's a real sense of inevitability to him.  I don't know if he thinks THAT is the cosmic consequence or if he just feels like his time is coming to an end.  Perhaps now that God is off with Amara, he's counting on not being resurrected again.  Whatever his rationale, Cas is saying his goodbyes.  And he's gearing himself up to make a sacrifice for the sake of the planet and/or The WInchesters.

4) Snarky McSnarkerson.  Cas is really bringing the snark this year.  It's interesting in the same episode where Isham was trash talking, he doesn't put up with much shit from Dean.  In their little spat at the beginning of Lily Saunders, he was rivaling Dean for poutmaster general.  I swear, the student has almost become the master.  Please note, I adore Dean Winchester and LOVE his relationship with Cas. I'm glad that this year has shown a comfort between them that they can have a snark-off and still demonstrate love.  And I love that Dean flat out said he's not mad, he's worried. I THINK Cas understood this but I'm glad he said it anyway.  

5. Cas feels worthless.  Not just that he needs redemption or is going to die. He truly is acting like a man person who is trying to come up with SOMETHING that he can do that he feels is 100% right.  I think Ambriel's little comments about the Winchesters being the real heroes still weighs on him.  And when they went missing, Cas tried to do their job and failed.  He talked about how the Winchesters wouldn't have the door shut on them.  Multiple times he's compared himself with the boys and has self-determined he's not as good.  This is a bad thing.  

Bottom Line: I KNOW Cas knows that he really matters to the boys.  But he seems really ready to throw his life away for redemption or to save the boys.  For meta reasons I don't think Cas is going anywhere but I am worried that he's not sharing his self-worth issues and he is desperate to find meaning in his continued existence.

Observation: As usual, binge watching 3/4ths of the season makes these arcs more obvious to me.  I think some important character issues are brewing with Cas and they are getting lost when we only see a small bit in a single episode.  Adding up all the episodes, the pattern becomes much more clear IMO.  

Edited April 27, 2017 by SueB

[rue721]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

He thinks he's transferred the 'cosmic consequences' to himself (and him alone). And he's absolutely unrepentant for it.

Reminds me of Mary and her deal with the YED.

[FlickChick]

Well, I'm here to say "congratulations" to Misha on his 100th episode and his fabulous portrayal of Cas. He did a wonderful job in this episode. I've always liked both Misha/Cas and his interactions with Jensen/Dean and Jared/Sam. After this episode, I'm even more concerned that we may lose him at the end of this season. And that would make me very sad. I hope I'm wrong. But again, congrats to Misha!

[catrox14]

From the conversation in the Writers thread.

http://www.tvequals.com/2017/05/01/supernatural-the-good-the-bad-and-the-frustrating/

Quote

The powers that be have struggled since the end of season five to figure out what to do with Castiel. They’ve had several opportunities to explore some interesting paths for him, but they’ve squandered the possibility every time. Thus, we’ve seen no lasting growth in Castiel since season five ended. He has literally been making the same mistake over and over again without any end in sight. By the time Cas decided to run off and play protector of Lucifer’s demon seed, I was just done. So very done. Cas either has bricks for brains or he’s actively refusing to learn from his past mistakes. Either way, it’s frustrating as all get out to watch the show continue to tread this same ground without doing more than paying lip-service to emotional maturity in the character

I cannot disagree more with this assessment of Cas. 

Like I said in the writers thread, Cas is bound by the same problems as Dean and Sam, they get put back into a box but that doesn't mean they don't have character progression along the way. It's just steps forward and steps back but IMO, Cas has been on path of progression more so than stagnation and/or regression.

MO Cas has changed/grown/progressed signficantly since s5. IMO, S9 and s10 he progressed the most. He was human for a time. Even though I thought he tried to be sympathetic to humans he was not necessarily empathetic. Once he was human and worked at the Gas n Sip, staying at the homeless shelter and trying to figure out whether he can wash his clothes or have food, he learned that life was precious and he appreciated things more.

He tried to become the President of the Angels and it went badly because Metatron.  He realized he just wanted to be an angel.  That's not regression IMO, that's him understanding what he wants and needs. And he wasn't willing to take his own grace back if it meant Metatron being out in the world. 

In s10, IMO, he further learned what it meant to be an angel on Earth and how difficult it was to be human.

 

Quote

 

"

10.01 Black

"Well, perhaps I've been down here with them for too long. There's seemingly nothing but chaos. But not all bad comes from it. Art. Hope. Love. Dreams."

10.02 Reichenbach

"Listen to me, Hannah. You don't want this. I have seen what -- I've made deals born of desperation, and they always end in blood and tears -- always."

10.03 Soul Survivor

"It’s what the humans do. They say they’re fine. And even if I—I don’t look it, you say I look well, and that way, we avoid talking about something we can do nothing about."

10.07 Girls, Girls, Girls (about Hannah and her vessel)

"You did the right thing. You hurt him, but you gave him a reason, something he could use to move forward and make sense of his loss. I had to take my vessel from his family -- twice, actually. Jimmy Novak. He was a good man. He was married, had a daughter...Claire."

10.09 The Things We Left Behind

"Yes, well, um… Before, I was very self-assured. I was convinced I was on this righteous path. Now I realize that there is no righteous path. It’s just people trying to do their best in a world where it’s far too easy to do your worst."

Castiel calls Sam, but by the time Sam and Dean find Charlie, she's already been killed by the Styne family.

10.22 The Prisoner

"Maybe you could fight the Mark for years. Maybe centuries, like Cain did. But you cannot fight it forever. And when you finally turn, and you will turn... Sam, and everyone you know, everyone you love... they could be long dead. Everyone except me. I’m the one who will have to watch you murder the world. So if there’s even a small chance that we can save you, I won’t let you walk out of this room."

He spent time with Hannah and saw how he changed by being on earth for so long compared to Hannah and the other angels shorter time. 

Cas IMO looks like he regressed at the end of s10 but IMO his love for Dean lead him to work with Sam behind Dean's back. Maybe he should have told Dean but he was following Sam's lead here, and yes they both lied to Dean but IMO again they believed they were doing the right thing. 

Cas has compassion, and in s12 alone HE LITERALLY said he FELT LOVE, the actual emotion of LOVE, which angels are not supposed to feel. If that's not character growth....well...then I'll eat my hat, your hat, ALL the hats.
 

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

8 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I actually share her view on Cas. He has made stupid mistake after stupid mistake and never seems to learn - a trait that is becoming incredibly annoying and repetitive. (I genuinely don't think you can say the same about Dean and Sam (though their characterisation hasn't always been perfect)). I'd only just managed to get past the hugely idiotic decision to say yes to Lucifer last season, when he does it again! I blame the writers. They are out of ideas for Cas and have been for some time IMO.

Oh I agree Castiel has made mistakes, in fact I've made several posts on here venting my annoyance about the actions that he took. However, the statement that he has not evolved at all since season five is an erroneous one. In my opinion a statement like that is a clear sign that the writer of this article has their own preconceived biases and have paid little attention to the characters arc on the show due to said biases. They're perfectly entitled to watch the show from that viewpoint, but fans of the character are also entitled to point that fact out. The same way fans of Sam or Dean would be entitled to argue against criticisms against the brothers they believe to be untrue. 

Off the top of my head there are two main changes the character has underwent between season five and now.

The first of these is his ability to take responsibility for his actions. Castiel came from a highly regulated, army like background where individual choice was not considered a thing. His superiors gave him orders and he fulfilled them and that was that. The official line was that he should never question these orders or take responsibility for following them as they were the word of God. What's more when Castiel did step out of line he was taken to Naomi who would alter his memories and force him to undergo brainwashing until he fell back into line. This background left him rather immature and unable to accept responsibility for his own actions during his earlier years on the show. Some examples of this inability to accept responsibility include; his lack of admittance in regards to his role in helping start the apocalypse (I would argue said role is somewhat negated by the fact he had just returned from being corrected in heaven, a process we know as of season eight involves memory manipulation and brainwashing, but I digress) or shifting the blame for his rebellious actions on to Dean during the events of Point of No Return. 

However, this is not the case now. We first saw character growth from Castiel in this area during season seven after he regained his memories at the end of The Born Again Identity. When confronted with the reality of what he did he admitted culpability for his actions. He doesn't try to shift it on to Crowley or anyone else. For the first time Castiel acknowledges that the blame lies with him, and him alone, and he makes an attempt to make amends by shifting the damage inflicted on Sam to himself. Unfortunately, his ability to handle dealing with the fallout for his actions is imperfect, and he allows the damage of the wall, he took on, to consume him as a form of escapism until Dean calls on him to "clean up his mess" during Survival of the Fittest. So in terms of character growth between seasons 5 and 7 Castiel has started to learn how to accept personal responsibility for his individual actions, but his ability to face up to atoning for them is still somewhat impaired. This character growth continues during season eight namely throughout Hunteri Heroici, which concludes with him deciding he needs to go to heaven and face up to what he has done. Unfortunately, he doesn't get to do so due to the manipulation of Naomi, but considering she was using mind control techniques it would be unfair to not count his willingness to go as character development. By season twelve he is fully capable of accepting responsibility for his own actions and more importantly try to work on fixing them. For instance during The Foundry he tells the brothers "No, the devil is free because of me. Finding him is my responsibility" 

The second area Castiel has  profound character development in is his viewpoint of the world in particular the question of "the few or the many". When we were first introduced to him the answer to this question was definitely the many.  It is for this reason he doesn't question the need to take out Jesse during I Believe the Children Are Our Future, and he is willing to break Sam's wall in order to ensure that Dean would not get in the way of opening the gates to purgatory. Personally, I believe this to be the case right up until the end of season eight. 

However, then something life changing happened, as @CATROX14 mentions above he came human. The show is very explicit about the fact that this period had a major affect on how Castiel showed the world. It provided him with a newfound appreciation for the little man, for the individuals going about their day to day life. He began to learn that it's all well and good taking the course of action that will save some people, but it's equally important to try and find a way to save everyone. A prime example of this change being highlighted occurs during First Born, when in contrast to his earlier action of breaking Sam's wall he is unwilling to risk Sam's life by extracting Gadreel's grace just so they can find him. A more modern example of this change in his behaviour actually occurred in this weeks episode. In contrast to I Believe the Children Are Our Future where he was shown to be willing to destroy Jesse here he was unable to kill Kelly and the nephilim when it comes down to it.

 

ETA: The authors claim that Castiel cost the boys the colt is equally unfounded. The brothers had already regained possession of the colt prior to that confrontation with Dagon. Cas' use of it had nothing to do with its destruction. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[AwesomO4000]

Waaay late here - didn't realize that I'd missed some past stuff - but here I go anyway...

On 3/7/2017 at 9:12 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I also am weird in that I think Gamble was very ballsy in keeping Cass off screen for so much of S7 and the story was stronger for it in the end. Not because I didn't want to see Cass, but because, unlike Bobby, when Cass returns, that moment feels totally earned. It's the whole absence-makes-the-heart-grow-fonder effect. I also think it was smart of her to keep Baby off-screen too.

Oh, wow. I thought that I was the only one who thought this way.

On 3/6/2017 at 2:24 PM, Wayward Son said:

Overall, Sera Gamble would be my least favourite considering her horrific treatment of him in seasons 6 and 7.

I respect your opinion, and I can see why you have it, but for me, I have to disagree with you here. I happen to think that Sera did a good job with Castiel despite that he was the "antagonist" in season 6. I say this, because for me, I thought Castiel's arc in seasons 6 and 7 was one of his most memorable and interesting. Other writers and show runners had Castiel do questionable things before (and since) - such as turning Anna in, letting Sam out of the panic room, helping to keep Dean prisoner in the beautiful room - but the motivation was basically that Cas was brainwashed (Same with season 8.)

With Sera's fall of Castiel, the motivations were almost human... like part of Castiel learning to understand humanity had to include making a very human mistake that started because he was trying to do something good and thoughtful. By making those mistakes, Castiel could then understand the mistakes Dean - and especially Sam made - and that allowed Castiel to maybe be closer to them, because now he, himself, had made those same mistakes and so now understood them better.

Also in terms of redemption, it was Sera's episodes that I found some of the best for Castiel in that regard: "The Born-Again Identity" where Castiel saves Sam to make up for breaking Sam's wall (and has some of that character growth you mention in your post just above) and "Survival of the Fittest" where Castiel is integral to taking down Dick Roman and despite his misgivings, is there to support Dean in that endeavor. Sera also wrote "The Song Remains the Same" where Castiel risks a lot so that Dean can try to save his mother and so that they can save Sam. It's also the beginning of Team Free Will, with Dean including Castiel as a founding member. And she wrote "Two Minutes to Midnight" where Castiel bravely saves Sam and Dean from Pestilence, despite it nearly killing him.

Now granted, Sera also wrote "Meet the New Boss" where yes, Castiel wreaks a lot of havoc, but in the end, Castiel does see the light and agrees to try to fix things, and he recognizes that he needs to atone for his mistakes. Cas doesn't succeed at first, but then again Sam didn't succeed at first either (in season 4's finale).

But for me, I really do think that Castiel's mistakes from season 6 and 7 were crucial to some of Castiel's character growth and especially his friendship with Sam. I don't think a Castiel who hadn't made similar mistakes himself could've become as close with Sam as he is now, so for me, Cas' mistakes in season 6 and 7 were part of why he's also "family" with Sam now and doesn't just see Sam as an extension of Dean. And is maybe also why he understands both Sam and Dean more now that he understands what it is to have made a mistake and have to make up for it rather than looking at Dean as this being he knows he wants to be maybe more like, but doesn't really understand why or why Dean is so remarkable.

But of course I understand that miles vary.

[DeansDorkyAngel]

One of the things that this show needs desperately is Ben Edlund's return. 

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, DeansDorkyAngel said:

One of the things that this show needs desperately is Ben Edlund's return. 

I completely agree with you! He was the writer who loved Castiel most and knew how to write him and all his nuances best as a result. Unfortunately, for us Supernatural fans at least, he seems to be settled on Gotham. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Unfortunately, for us Supernatural fans at least, he seems to be settled on Gotham. 

Actually, he hasn't been on Gotham since their first season. He's currently doing a new live action Tick series for Amazon that will be out late this summer.

[Wayward Son]

59 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, he hasn't been on Gotham since their first season. He's currently doing a new live action Tick series for Amazon that will be out late this summer.

Oops my mistake! Thanks for correcting my mistake and better yet giving me a new show to check out when it premieres. I love me some Edlund haha

Edited May 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

I do to. FYI, the pilot episode for this show is already up. It was one of three shows Amazon put out pilots on and then had people vote on which they would pick up as a series. So, if you just can't wait... .

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I've been rewatching several episodes in S5 and S6 (last half of S6, because I didn't really want to rewatch SoullessSam) and I just really enjoyed the humor Cas used to bring to the show before he got the 'data download' from Metatron.  All the "I do not understand that reference' s are even funnier now since we don't get them any more.  Personally, I wish he'd never gotten it (the download).  Also, he was much better when he could still teleport - and I think the writers made a mistake not giving the angels more powers back after the sandbox-stairway to heaven was opened.  

[Wayward Son]

The last fifteen hours since I watched the finale have been quite a whirlwind. I went from numb and accepting to random bursts of tears to fits of anger and back to tears. Now I just have so many questions for Dabb! 

 

Why sideline Castiel for his final half season of the show? He only starred in three of the last twelve twelve episodes.

Why give him such horrible material for that last half season? 

Why have him steal from the boys and knock them out in his second last episode? Thus tainting the memories of many casual viewers. 

Why is he never allowed a proper reconciliation scene and to apologise for those actions? 

Why was his death such a pointless one? It did nothing to aid the imprisonment of Lucifer. 

Why list all the ways he messed up during his second last episode and not even allow him a smidgen of dignity by having a win before he died? 

Why make his final legacy involve him being the guy who unleashed the newest big bad in the world? 

What exactly has Misha or his fans done to offend you? 

Seriously, I never thought the CW could find a show runner whose treatment of Castiel I could hate more than  Gamble's, but they succeeded with Dabb. Bravo CW bravo. 

[FlickChick]

Hey, @WAYWARD SON, I hear you! If indeed, this is Cas'/Misha's last episode as a regular part of the show (not counting the occasional dreamscape/flashback/etc) then it was a great injustice to the character/actor. I'm really hoping that Cas will be back AS CAS next season with a resurrection from the Nephilim as a way of thanks for protecting him. It does scare me that it may be a way for TPTB to limit his appearances. To which I say "pass the flask of misery and FUCK THEM".

[catrox14]

I have come to the conclusion that this not the end of Cas. I think it was AU!Cas that was killed. I posted a theory in the 12.23 episode thread as to how that can work.

I won't give up on Real!Castiel being alive in the AU. I just can't. I can't.

[Advance35]

Quote

But for me, I really do think that Castiel's mistakes from season 6 and 7 were crucial to some of Castiel's character growth and especially his friendship with Sam. I don't think a Castiel who hadn't made similar mistakes himself could've become as close with Sam as he is now, so for me, Cas' mistakes in season 6 and 7 were part of why he's also "family" with Sam now and doesn't just see Sam as an extension of Dean. And is maybe also why he understands both Sam and Dean more now that he understands what it is to have made a mistake and have to make up for it rather than looking at Dean as this being he knows he wants to be maybe more like, but doesn't really understand why or why Dean is so remarkable.

The evolution of the Sam-Castiel friendship is so subtle but interesting.  Definitely not as in-your-face as Dean-Castiel, but it is there.  Sam was 8 times out of 10, always friendly to Castiel even in the beginning but Cas would always treat him with a removed chilly disdain or disregard his existence whenever possible.   As his relationship with Dean evolved, he began to tolerate Sam better but I still wouldn't say there was any fondness there even though I do think Sam considered Cas a friend.  By the time we got to Seasons 6 and 7, Dean and Castiel were antagonistic 6 times out of 10 and it was always Sam that would get Dean to dial it down.  It's Sam that prays to Castiel to help them find Lisa and Ben.  It's also Sam that pleads with Castiel to come back to Bobby's and let them help him, after they saw the footage of Leviathan possessed Castiel killing all those people.  Castiel actually drove Sam insane and it was Sam that forgave him long before Dean as early as Season 7.  There talk in "Reading Is Fundamental" was very poignant and their bond was cemented in my eyes in "First Born."   What I like about them is even though they are close and I think Sam has come to view Castiel as family, he DOES keep his eye on Cas in terms of what he's up to.   An example being planting a tracker in Castiel's phone when he just showed up at the bunker after so long.

I think Dean-Castiel's relationship has evolved parallel to Dean-Sam.  There is no longer any kind of Hierarchy between the brothers, they are both on even footing in their relation to each other both in terms of hunting and in personal matters.   Neither comes off as the less experienced or younger between them.  Whereas Castiel, who has been around since time began, comes off as a sheltered house cat compared to Dean's rough and tumble world weariness.  Castiel idolizes Dean in a lot of ways and Dean has developed a fierce protective streak in regards to Castiel.  This says a lot when you factor in the trouble Castiel caused for Dean in particular in Seasons 6 & 7.  The initial betrayal was brutal for Dean, then the aftermath of Lisa and Ben, and then Bobby dying because of Dick Roman, who was in the world because of Castiel's schemes with Crowley.  A lot of people Dean loved were hurt by Castiel's actions and it's a testament to how much he's come to care about Castiel, that Dean still considers Castiel family.   And it may be what happened during Seasons 6 & 7 that has added to Dean's discomfort when Castiel is radio silent for long stretches of time.   Dean trusts Castles heart to always be in the right place but he also knows that Castiel can easily get himself into BIG trouble.  This season alone, when Dean knew what Castiel was a part of in terms of Lily Sunder, he knew she had a right to want revenge on all the angels but he told her "Cas is family, we can't let you hurt him." & implied he would kill her if she tried.   At the same time Castiel is like a precocious child that knows how to manipulate an authority figure where Dean is concerned, hence how he was able to steal the colt out from under Dean's nose.  I think part of the reason Castiel has been such an asset to the show is because he doesn't detract from the central relationship of Dean-Sam, in a lot of ways, he adds to it.

Quote

I just really enjoyed the humor Cas used to bring to the show before he got the 'data download' from Metatron.  All the "I do not understand that reference' s are even funnier now since we don't get them any more.  Personally, I wish he'd never gotten it (the download).

The first episode it happened i was horrified because that particular characteristic had always been such a wonderful source of humor for the show but even though he understands the references his applications are so off the reservation, it's still very humorous to me.  An example being when Crowley said "This has been a dogs breakfast" and Cas replied "I didn't know dogs had breakfast."   Or when Sam told Castiel he needed him to referee between Rowena and Charlie and Castiel asked "What are the rules.  If I'm to referee, I should at least know the rules."  Or when Crowley appeared in the S10 Finale and told Castiel "Who summons anymore? Couldn't you have called." and Castiel replied "Your not in my contacts." LOL.  And when he started playing FBI on his own and left word that the authorities should expect his colleagues "Agent Spears" and "Agent Auglierra."

The Crowley-Castiel relationship is another one that's been evolved into gold IMO.  From there Season 6 Partners in Crime, packed with SHOCKING sexual suggestiveness by Crowley "Castiel, your the bottom in this relationship." or leering at Castiel and saying "Happy endings for all, with all entendres intended."  To Crowley wanting to crush Castiel after his betrayal.  When Crowley grew fond of Dean he seemed to view Castiel as the Winchesters troublesome and slow younger brother.  Ranting at Dean "Do you know what Moose and that idiot angel are up to?"  To an eventual, reluctant fondness of Castiel on his own, with pet names like "Choir Boy", "Feathers", "The Winchesters love slave."  And who could forget, "Agent Beyonce, I guess that makes me Agent Jay-Z" LOL.  He's saved Castiel's life a few times through the years, more interesting since I think the fondness was mostly a one way street.  I don't think Castiel ever warmed to Crowley.

Been going on so long I may have lost the point.   Awesome character and awesome character arc.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Advance35

[MysteryGuest]

12 hours ago, Advance35 said:

The Crowley-Castiel relationship is another one that's been evolved into gold IMO.  From there Season 6 Partners in Crime, packed with SHOCKING sexual suggestiveness by Crowley "Castiel, your the bottom in this relationship." or leering at Castiel and saying "Happy endings for all, with all entendres intended."  To Crowley wanting to crush Castiel after his betrayal.  When Crowley grew fond of Dean he seemed to view Castiel as the Winchesters troublesome and slow younger brother.  Ranting at Dean "Do you know what Moose and that idiot angel are up to?"  To an eventual, reluctant fondness of Castiel on his own, with pet names like "Choir Boy", "Feathers", "The Winchesters love slave."  And who could forget, "Agent Beyonce, I guess that makes me Agent Jay-Z" LOL.  He's saved Castiel's life a few times through the years, more interesting since I think the fondness was mostly a one way street.  I don't think Castiel ever warmed to Crowley.

 

I loved Cas and Crowley together, which makes me all the more upset about Mark leaving the show.  The 4 of them really had some great chemistry together.  If it was his decision to leave, then I wish him well, but if Dabb thought it was a good idea, then to hell with him!

[Wayward Son]

I figured I'd revive this thread for some discussion on your favourite moments of Misha / Cas throughout the show since similar discussion is occurring over in the Dean and Sam thread. Most of the moments are from S4/5 since I'm currently rewatching the show and those seasons are freshest. 

 

• I love the entire first scene between Dean and Castiel at the end of Lazarus Rising. Misha does an excellent job of introducing Cas as this other worldly tension and there is instant chemistry between the two characters. My favourite line though is "What's the matter? You don't think you deserve to be saved? I love the way Cas' head tilts ever so slightly and his face crinkles up in confusion before the realization comes to him.
• On the Head of a Pin as a whole has to be a highlight of Misha's acting. I just love the way he conveys Cas' growing conflict. He has doubts about the validity of his orders and yet he isn't ready to rebel. He is disgusted and indignant at the very idea of being like her. I can really feel the weird mesh of conflicting emotions felt by Cas here.
• The confrontation between Dean and Castiel outside the motel in The Monster at the End of this Book. Misha's whole body language does an excellent job of conveying that he is trying to tell Dean something without actually telling him. There is even an element of "omg you idiot" in there when Dean takes a while to get what he's alluding to.
• The scene where Castiel finally rebels against heaven especially at the very beginning when he shoves Dean against the wall to silence him. I have to give joint credit for this as both Jensen and Misha do an incredible job of showing Castiel and Dean communicating without the need for words.
• The confrontation between Zachariah and Castiel at the end of Sympathy for the Devil. The complete change in Castiel's posture, tone and mannerisms reveals he is filled with a new sense of purpose.
• When a broken Castiel breaks and refers to Chuck as a Son of a Bitch. You can just hear the despair in his tone.
• The motel scene between Sam and Castiel during 99 Problems was hilarious especially the deliver of "And I drank it!". Misha does an incredibly funny drunk Cas.
• The Man Who Would Be King is just a masterpiece for Misha acting as Castiel. He does an incredible job of conveying multiple sides to the character including his conflicting hubris and doubts about the validity of his actions.
• The scene between Dean and Castiel where he states he might kill himself breaks my heart every time I watch it.
• The scene where he tells Lily Sunder he will be waiting if she finds she can't forgive him. His genuine repentance and sadness shone through his performance.

I can't wait to see everyone else moments. 

[Jeddah]

9 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I figured I'd revive this thread for some discussion on your favourite moments of Misha / Cas throughout the show since similar discussion is occurring over in the Dean and Sam thread. Most of the moments are from S4/5 since I'm currently rewatching the show and those seasons are freshest. 

 

• I love the entire first scene between Dean and Castiel at the end of Lazarus Rising. Misha does an excellent job of introducing Cas as this other worldly tension and there is instant chemistry between the two characters. My favourite line though is "What's the matter? You don't think you deserve to be saved? I love the way Cas' head tilts ever so slightly and his face crinkles up in confusion before the realization comes to him.
• On the Head of a Pin as a whole has to be a highlight of Misha's acting. I just love the way he conveys Cas' growing conflict. He has doubts about the validity of his orders and yet he isn't ready to rebel. He is disgusted and indignant at the very idea of being like her. I can really feel the weird mesh of conflicting emotions felt by Cas here.
• The confrontation between Dean and Castiel outside the motel in The Monster at the End of this Book. Misha's whole body language does an excellent job of conveying that he is trying to tell Dean something without actually telling him. There is even an element of "omg you idiot" in there when Dean takes a while to get what he's alluding to.
• The scene where Castiel finally rebels against heaven especially at the very beginning when he shoves Dean against the wall to silence him. I have to give joint credit for this as both Jensen and Misha do an incredible job of showing Castiel and Dean communicating without the need for words.
• The confrontation between Zachariah and Castiel at the end of Sympathy for the Devil. The complete change in Castiel's posture, tone and mannerisms reveals he is filled with a new sense of purpose.
• When a broken Castiel breaks and refers to Chuck as a Son of a Bitch. You can just hear the despair in his tone.
• The motel scene between Sam and Castiel during 99 Problems was hilarious especially the deliver of "And I drank it!". Misha does an incredibly funny drunk Cas.
• The Man Who Would Be King is just a masterpiece for Misha acting as Castiel. He does an incredible job of conveying multiple sides to the character including his conflicting hubris and doubts about the validity of his actions.
• The scene between Dean and Castiel where he states he might kill himself breaks my heart every time I watch it.
• The scene where he tells Lily Sunder he will be waiting if she finds she can't forgive him. His genuine repentance and sadness shone through his performance.

I can't wait to see everyone else moments. 

You covered most of the ones I could think of off the top of my head!

After he tells Sam he can't take care of Dean and Bobby in "Swan Song" I like his awkward realization: "Oh, I was supposed to lie."

But my favorite Cas moment will always be when he boops Kevin on the nose in "Reading Is Fundamental."

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, Jeddah said:

But my favorite Cas moment will always be when he boops Kevin on the nose in "Reading Is Fundamental."

I think my favorite Cass moment--although, there's quite a few, so it's hard to say--is Dean and Cass playing Sorry. TBH, I pretty much love all the crazy Cass bits at the end of S7. 

[bettername2come]

I just watched this one last night, so it's still fresh in my mind - Cas realizing he does understand what Meg means by "order a pizza and move some furniture around."

Other favorites not yet mentioned include.

• Castiel with the baby in "Heaven Can't Wait," singing and then getting protective of her and the rest of humanity. 
• Castiel in "Abandon All Hope." There's not a single bit of Castiel that isn't fantastic this episode. From outdrinking Ellen and surprising Jo, to standing up to Lucifer and saying "You are not taking Sam Winchester. I won't let you" to using Meg's body to walk across holy fire. He's funny and weird and protective and badass and smart, like Castiel is supposed to be. 
• "I won't hurt Dean!" and fighting against Naomi's orders in "Goodbye Stranger.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, bettername2come said:

Castiel in "Abandon All Hope." There's not a single bit of Castiel that isn't fantastic this episode. From outdrinking Ellen and surprising Jo, to standing up to Lucifer and saying "You are not taking Sam Winchester. I won't let you" to using Meg's body to walk across holy fire. He's funny and weird and protective and badass and smart, like Castiel is supposed to be. 

Yeah, I really love all the Cas parts in that ep.  

[Wayward Son]

20 hours ago, Jeddah said:

You covered most of the ones I could think of off the top of my head!

After he tells Sam he can't take care of Dean and Bobby in "Swan Song" I like his awkward realization: "Oh, I was supposed to lie."

But my favorite Cas moment will always be when he boops Kevin on the nose in "Reading Is Fundamental."

Interestingly, I'm actually not a big fan of the "Oh, I was supposed to lie" scene. It is one of those occasions where Misha's delivery comes across a little hammy for me. Plus, from a writing viewpoint it doesn't work. We know from both late season 4 and season 6 Castiel is actually quite a capable liar when the occasion calls for it. 

 

I do agree on the Reading is Fundamental scene though :)

 

9 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I just watched this one last night, so it's still fresh in my mind - Cas realizing he does understand what Meg means by "order a pizza and move some furniture around."

Other favorites not yet mentioned include.

• Castiel with the baby in "Heaven Can't Wait," singing and then getting protective of her and the rest of humanity. 
• Castiel in "Abandon All Hope." There's not a single bit of Castiel that isn't fantastic this episode. From outdrinking Ellen and surprising Jo, to standing up to Lucifer and saying "You are not taking Sam Winchester. I won't let you" to using Meg's body to walk across holy fire. He's funny and weird and protective and badass and smart, like Castiel is supposed to be. 
• "I won't hurt Dean!" and fighting against Naomi's orders in "Goodbye Stranger.

I was thinking more in terms of Misha best display of acting when I was listing those moments.  His acting in the baby scene is alright, but not stand out for me. However, I would agree that should definitely go down as one of Cas' most adorable moments :D 

 

Ooh yes! I completely agree with you about Abandon All Hope. Unsurprisingly, it was a Ben Edlund episode. He always did the best job with writing scripts that showed the different facets of Castiel! I miss him and Misha working together. 

 

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think my favorite Cass moment--although, there's quite a few, so it's hard to say--is Dean and Cass playing Sorry. TBH, I pretty much love all the crazy Cass bits at the end of S7. 

Ooh yes that's another interesting moment! I'm not a big fan of the crazy Cas arc on a story level, but Misha definitely does try to make the best of what he was given to work with.  

[Jeddah]

13 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Interestingly, I'm actually not a big fan of the "Oh, I was supposed to lie" scene. It is one of those occasions where Misha's delivery comes across a little hammy for me. Plus, from a writing viewpoint it doesn't work. We know from both late season 4 and season 6 Castiel is actually quite a capable liar when the occasion calls for it. 

Maybe it doesn't make sense character or plot-wise, but I still love the awkwardness of it!

[Wayward Son]

36 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

LOL! I feel the same way Cas; the writers have been doing you a disservice for a long time!

And @catrox14 too 

 

I totally agree with this! Andrew Dabb is quickly approaching the point where he'll surpass Sera Gamble for the title of "My Least Favourite Castiel related show runner". Under him the character's sole purpose seems to be "the screw up who drives the mytharc". In season 11 it was unleashing Lucifer by foolishly saying yes and during 12 it was protecting Jack from being depowered. 

 

I dont know why this is. My best guesses are a) he simply doesn't value Cas as a character and only sees him as a plot device. B) He dislikes the character, but has been forced to keep him around by the WB and therefore tries to make him look as bad as possible. C) He's simply clueless about how to write a superpowered protagonist and therefore writes him as constantly making mistakes. Personally, I am leaning toward B for the simple fact the writing made a point of highlighting what a screw up Cas is and then killed him off without getting a big win first. It was a massive F u to both the character and his fans. 

 

IMO the best post season 5 season for Cas was definitely S9. The reason for this is the fact that he was actually treated like a character. We got to see his temporary journey as a human in the first place and what he learnt from that experience in the second half. My biggest wish is that they'd make him human permanately. There is IMO so much potential to be explored there! Plus, they could even bring in some more human friends for Cas to interact with. At the moment they seem to rely on Angels for Cas and tbh the show hasn't managed to write a new compelling angel character since s6 or so. 

 

ETA 2: Finished my post! Sorry about the accidental posting. @catrox14 @DeeDee79

Edited August 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

On 8/11/2017 at 7:20 PM, Wayward Son said:

We know from both late season 4 and season 6 Castiel is actually quite a capable liar when the occasion calls for it.

*snicker* "You're a terrible liar." " That is not true! I once deceived and betrayed both you and your brother!" It's hilarious how indignant he is about it :)

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

*snicker* "You're a terrible liar." " That is not true! I once deceived and betrayed both you and your brother!" It's hilarious how indignant he is about it :)

That is actually another line of Cas' I'm not overly keen on. I'm not sure if it was the direction, or a miscalculation on Misha's part, but it really didn't work for me. IMO Cas was clearly shown over the course of seasons 7 and 8 to be truly sorry for what he did! This doesn't come across at all here! Misha plays Cas as way too smug about a time which is meant to be a source of shame for the character. At least IMO anyway. I think it would have worked better for me if a softer and less indignant delivery had been applied.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Misha plays Cas as way too smug about a time which is meant to be a source of shame for the character.

I didn't actually see it as Cas being smug. I just saw it as him taking Sam too literally when he said he was terrible at lying. But that's IMO and I don't think that it took away from his remorse for prior acts.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't actually see it as Cas being smug. I just saw it as him taking Sam too literally when he said he was terrible at lying. But that's IMO and I don't think that it took away from his remorse for prior acts.

Actually, reading back smug isn't quite the word I was looking for :) . I'm not sure how to describe it really, but something just didn't feel right about the delivery of that line for me. But as always YMMV :) 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Actually, reading back smug isn't quite the word I was looking for :) . I'm not sure how to describe it really, but something just didn't feel right about the delivery of that line for me. But as always YMMV :) 

I think Cas was just being his literal self and setting the record straight and a little bit sarcastic with Sam for Sam saying he was a bad liar. Like not in pride but just like factually
 

Edited August 14, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

I like sassy Castiel!

 

 

And for fun the reactions

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

Castiel.

I think this is a lovely bit of acting from Misha. 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Castiel.

I think this is a lovely bit of acting from Misha. 

I especially love the last gif! It's all in the eyes and IMO Misha manages to convey a sense of "wow, I can't believe that really worked." 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I especially love the last gif! It's all in the eyes and IMO Misha manages to convey a sense of "wow, I can't believe that really worked." 

I took that to be more like "Oh shit, what did I just do". It's like the moment he knew he was putting his ass on the line for these guys and I'm not sure he even understood why he did it himself LOL

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I took that to be more like "Oh shit, what did I just do". It's like the moment he knew he was putting his ass on the line for these guys and I'm not sure he even understood why he did it himself LOL

I can definitely see that interpretation too! But either way I think Misha does a great job of conveying that Cas was nowhere near as confident as he seemed. His acting choice was subtle and all in the eyes rather than the need for dialogue to convey this.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I can definitely see that interpretation too! But either way I think Misha does a great job of conveying that Cas was nowhere near as confident as he seemed. His acting choice was subtle and all in the eyes rather than the need for dialogue to convey this.

Oh definitely. I'm not dissing his acting choice. I just thought it was internal relief that it worked followed by "Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh shit". Like to me he knew he made a choice that he could never go back on again.