Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think this really applies in Dean's situation because the reason he he started torturing was stop being tortured himself.  He didn't first pick up the blade for enjoyment.  He really didn't have much of a choice but to keep going.  I figure if he stopped and refused he would have been put back on the rack himself. 

I realize that he didn't choose to do it.  But, I don't think the fact that he feels guilty now negates that he may have enjoyed it at the time.  In fact, if he enjoyed it, it would make him feel all the more guilty now that he is out of that situation.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't know whether Dean enjoyed it or n ot, but I don't think logic holds up.  I have felt guilty over stuff that I've enjoyed.  I would submit that most people have. You wouldn't do the activity that you felt guilty over in the first place, if there wasn't an element of enjoying it.  Take affairs for instance.  Everybody enjoys them at the moment (I would imagine.  I've never had one), but hopefully at least some people feel guilty afterword.

Since they have made the entire experience very bodily literal, even though it just happened to the soul, I don`t think he can accurately judge his feelings. The sheer absence of pain after so long of it would make his system flood with joy, no matter what he was doing. So did he feel enjoyment during this period? Yes, I`m quite sure he did. But it is IMO the most natural thing in the world. I`m sure he would also have enjoyed it immensely if the demons had simply left him alone, curled up in a corner, for those ten years. Anything that wouldn`t be relentless torture would be enjoyment.    

But since Dean can`t rationally process it like this, he feels guilty and thinks that made him an utterly horrible, amoral, psychotic person who is to blame. When in truth it was just another form of abuse performed on HIM which still makes him a victim in this scenario. The one who is horrible, to blame, amoral and psychotic and who I`m sure enjoyed himself for purely sadistic reasons was Alistair.  

[Etoile]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

I have felt guilty over stuff that I've enjoyed.  I would submit that most people have. You wouldn't do the activity that you felt guilty over in the first place, if there wasn't an element of enjoying it.  Take affairs for instance.  Everybody enjoys them at the moment (I would imagine.  I've never had one), but hopefully at least some people feel guilty afterword.

Are you saying that being tortured into torturing is like... having an affair one could feel guilty after as if Dean had any choice in the matter? Torture by definition takes away choice from the person being tortured, no tortured person ever has any choice in what he does under the threat of torture.

As for Dean  ‘ enjoying it’ it’s not even obscure or subject to interpretation, he himself said that he felt joy in his own pain stopping finally, which was the ultimate psychological sadistc torture Alastair used on Dean. This happened when the writers, Edlund especially but not just him, knew what they were doing about important, and even actual topic, like torture and the effects on prisoners (as opposed  to whatever it is that they are doing now).

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, Etoile said:

Are you saying that being tortured into torturing is like... having an affair one could feel guilty after as if Dean had any choice in the matter? Torture by definition takes away choice from the person being tortured, no tortured person ever has any choice in what he does under the threat of torture.

As for Dean  ‘ enjoying it’ it’s not even obscure or subject to interpretation, he himself said that he felt joy in his own pain stopping finally, which was the ultimate psychological sadistc torture Alastair used on Dean. This happened when the writers, Edlund especially but not just him, knew what they were doing about important, and even actual topic, like torture and the effects on prisoners (as opposed  to whatever it is that they are doing now).

No, I am saying exactly what I said I was saying. That just because you feel guilty about something doesn't necessarily mean you didn't enjoy it.

[Etoile]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No, I am saying exactly what I said I was saying. That just because you feel guilty about something doesn't necessarily mean you didn't enjoy it.

This is very ill informed on how torture works and  about its effects on the tortured person. Dean being forced into torturing is another form of torture a worse form of torture than what was done to him. His guilt was the whole point his ‘joy’ his sheer relief at the end of pain, at being the one having the knife, instead of under the knife, was the whole point of what Alastair did to break and debase him. It was a fantastic, nuanced storyline evidently written by someone who did their homework - I don’t have the link handy right now but there is a passage from a UN report on torture that  could very well be written about Dean’s experience, both in hell and his feelings after. This is not like having an affair and feeling guilty after, like you said. Like Aeryn13 said, Dean saying that he enjoyed it is how Dean perceives his own actions, the illusion of choice and the guilt that comes from thinking he had some when her really, trully did not. No other storyline, no other trauma has ever been as complex and terrible as what they wrote for Dean’s hell experience and seeing it likened to the guilt of having an affair is simplistic, and a bit like blaming a victim for what it was done to them.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, Etoile said:

This is very ill informed on how torture works and  about its effects on the tortured person. Dean being forced into torturing is another form of torture a worse form of torture than what was done to him. His guilt was the whole point his ‘joy’ his sheer relief at the end of pain, at being the one having the knife, instead of under the knife, was the whole point of what Alastair did to break and debase him. It was a fantastic, nuanced storyline evidently written by someone who did their homework - I don’t have the link handy right now but there is a passage from a UN report on torture that  could very well be written about Dean’s experience, both in hell and his feelings after. This is not like having an affair and feeling guilty after, like you said. Like Aeryn13 said, Dean saying that he enjoyed it is how Dean perceives his own actions, the illusion of choice and the guilt that comes from thinking he had some when her really, trully did not. No other storyline, no other trauma has ever been as complex and terrible as what they wrote for Dean’s hell experience and seeing it likened to the guilt of having an affair is simplistic, and a bit like blaming a victim for what it was done to them.

Of course it's torture. Of course he didn't choose it.  I never said that he did.  I never said that he was a bad person. I'm just saying that a part of him probably did enjoy it at the time because he was no longer being tortured and he probably had a lot of anger and pain that *in the moment* he was glad to mete out to someone else.

[Myrelle]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:33 PM, ILoveReading said:

Since its Hiatus, I thought I would start up Dean discussions again. 

Discuss Dean in episode 11 (I think this is where I left off).

1. Scarecrow- I really liked this one.  It had that B horror movie feel.  I really expected the scarecrow to start moving.  I don't mind tension or fighting among the brothers if it feels organic and I felt like this fight did.  It had been building and finally came to a head.  Jensen was great in that scene where he apologized to Sam.  I just wish we had gotten more from Sam's end.  It gave me one of my favorite lines.  "I hope your apple pie is freakin' worth it."

2. Playthings- It did establish Dean's love for Daphne, so it was nice to see the continuity with Scoobynatural.  I didn't have a personal computer back then so I was shocked to learn that Maggie was imaginary.  (I think it was Maggie, its been awhile since I watched this).  I felt for Dean in this one.  When he said he never had a home and when Sam made him promise to take him out if he goes dark side.  I really liked the homage to The Shining with the scene between Dean and the butler in the bar.  IMO, thats how you do a homage.   The dolls were creepy.  I miss the horror element that episodes like Scarecrow and this one gave us. 

3. Mystery Spot- This was more of a Sam episode, but I enjoyed it.  Jensen did a good job with Dean's many deaths. 

4. Family Remains- I wasn't a fan of this episode.   It required too many WTF moments to make the plot work and I felt bad the kids.  I kind of have a head canon that there were so many mistakes made because Dean was running on empty.   But I don't think that was deliberate.  (I think Carver wrote this).  It took a dark turn at the end when Dean said he enjoyed torturing.   A bold move.  I don't think Dean actually ever enjoyed it.  If he did he wouldn't feel guilty.  I think it was more about a sense of relief of getting off the rack and being in control.  Jensen continues to deliver during these scenes.  Its part of the reason why Jack was such a failure.  I'd be more worried if Dean unleashed his dark side.  But that's a topic for another thread.

5.Sam Interrupted-  I loved this ep.  I never understood when it was called Sam Interrupted when it was far more about Dean.  It showed just how much responsibility Dean was shouldering.  I have to admit was I surprised when the psychiatrist was revealed to be in Dean's head.   I wish the show would give us more eps like this and What is.  Dean's screwed to hell psyche makes for some fascinating eps and discussion.  Jensen was great as always.   "Pudding."

6. Appointment in Samarra- This is another really good ep.  I've always enjoyed the dynamic between Dean and Death and this ep gave it to me in spades.  I also really like Dean/Tessa.  It was nice to see Robert Englund.  I just wish we got to see him again.  It's one of those times where Death does a favor for Dean.  I asked Julian about why Death does favours for Dean, and he said its because he's cute, plus he feels he's kind of an uncle towards Dean.  I like Lisa but give me more Julian too please.  

7. Adventures in Babysitting- Not my favorite ep, and I really disliked the directing in the end where Dean is basically just forced to stand there so Krissy can get the kill.  But this did give me what is probably my favorite non verbal acting from Jensen, when Dean was practicing his smiles.  Never have I seen such sad smiles.  Nothing reached his eyes.  Give Jensen an Emmy already. 

8. LARP and the Real Girl- I'm not a big Charlie fan so this wasn't one of my favorite eps.   I really disliked Charlie's line about Dean ruining Sam's happiness and Dean basically waiting to get permission from Sam to have fun.  But I did enjoy Dean's enthusiasm for LARPing.   Shallow moment, Jensen looked great in that outfit. 

9. First Born- I can't give Dean in this ep enough love.  Its one of my favorite eps of the series.  Lots of Dean/Crowley interaction.  It was the beginning of Drowley.  I loved Tim O's Cain.   He and Jensen had great chemistry.   It was an interesting addition to the mythology.  It gave Dean his first mytharc in years.  What can I say about that badass fight scene.  Cain calmly sitting there shucking corn while it was happening made it better.  I also love Dean's ability to improvise and use what's around him.   He's this show's MacGyver.  Did I mention Jensen needs an Emmy. 

10. There is No Place Like Home- Not one of my favorites.  To much making Charlie into a Mary Sue.   But I did like Jensen's performance.  I could feel his struggle to try to stay on the straight and narrow. 

11. Into The Mystic- Again more of a Sam ep, but I did like Dean's interactions with Mildred.  Having an actress like Dee Wallace made what could have been very cringe worthy scenes into something poignant.   Jensen and Dee had some great chemistry.  Althougth the scene where Dean starts banging his head off the wall was disturbing.

12. Regarding Dean- Another one of my favorites.  Jensen was fantastic in this one.  The Mirror scene made me really for Dean.  I just wish it hadn't been cut.  Its another ep Jensen should have gotten an emmy for.  (IIRC, Jensen received and honorable mention for performer of the week).   I just wish they had gone into the darker side of the curse a little more.  I also liked the scenes between Rowena and Dean.  Jensen's "sucks to be that guy" had me chuckling.   He has such great comedic timing. 

13. Breakdown- More of a Donna ep.  I did like this one because it gave us lots of Leader Dean.  Which is my favorite characteristic.

Overall episode 11 seems to be a good one for Dean. 

Favorite ep- First Born.

Least favorite ep- There's No Place like Home.

1. Scarecrow-I'd like this one better if it hadn't been undermined by tons of stuff that came after as regards the brothers' relationship.

As of right now, I feel like they haven't gotten much past this episode in the growth dept, tbh; and that's the saddest thing about this one, at this point, IMO.

 I liked the MOTW. Creepy and scary and "fugly" as all get out, for sure. Lots of Classic Deanisms in this one. So theres' that.

2.Playthings-Mmmmmmmmmm...Daphne. Love her.-So. Great. Especially after S13.

And Dean's reaction to Sam's demand that Dean do what Dad told him. So great also.

But the best was his reaction after Sam settled and was sleeping his drunken self off-both the immediate and the morning after. Jensen Ackles at his early best, IMO.

3.Mystery Spot-A Sam episode except for the fact that in this one we're also shown via Jensen that Dean is The Laughter and The Love and The Light in the Brothers' otherwise Very, Very Dark World. That and the fact that no one else "dies" like The Ackles, made this one a classic for me and FWIW, after Dean "died" for the last time, the episode lost most of it's luster for me.

4.Family Remains-I loved this episode-dark as it was-and it was very dark. I especially liked when Dean came back and had to tell the family of the death of Ted, the mother's brother. That was brutal for Dean and Jensen played it Beautifully.

5. Sam Interrupted-Ostensibly  about Sam, but honestly?-it was more about Dean, IMO-and I loved that.

6. Appointment in Samarra-Loved this one, too. Every Dean scene-especially "Hi Sam. I'm back."

7.Adventures in Babysitting-Yuck. Didn't like, at all because of the ending-even though Dean and the teenaged girl had very nice chemistry when talking about her going to school.

8.Larp and the Real Girl-I loved Dean in chain mail-absolutely Loved! him!!-and his bashing the bad guy  at the end and his firing his gun off to show that Shit just got Real in the forest. Those things were Awesome.

Will finish the rest in the morning. Too tired now...

Edited June 16, 2018 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

Ok. Trying to finish ep. 11s here...

9.First Born-I remember this one like it was yesterday. The celebrations within the Dean fandom over this episode was a thing of pure joy. Dean-not just given a role within the myth-arc, but the seemingly sole central role was history-making. And the storyline was a winner from the very beginning with Tim O passing the MOC to Dean so very long-in-the-waiting. And the culmination in the finale of this season created a kind of renaissance for the show, IMO; and it made every season after 5 worthwhile, in some way, afterwards precisely because of it.

10.No Place Like Home-I'd rather forget this one completely. Awful episode. Charlie Sue and little else. Yuck.

11. Into The Mystic-I  really like the chemistry between Jensen and Dee Wallace Stone. Did not expect that I would like this one as much as I did, but VulnerableDean is so often a winner on this show, that it's hard to go wrong with that concept even after all these years.

12. Regarding Dean-One of the best episodes of the entire series, IMO. Every scene was Gold, and Jensen has incredible chemistry with Ruth Connell, as this one and Inside Man proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. But this episode was All. About. Dean. and beautifully done all around and all of that was what made it one of the best of the entire series, IMO. But sadly, it all went completely downhill for Dean after this one. As someone else said at the time-it felt like a sort of requiem for the character and that was sadly what it turned out to be with Dabb fully in charge then.

13. Breakdown-I remember liking Dean in this one, but little else, tbh.

Oops! Forgot- my favorite(s)-Regarding Dean/First Born. Least Favorite-Adventures in Babysitting.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

Moving on to episode 12

1. Faith- This is one of my favorite episodes of the series. It deals with the main themes of the series.  What makes a monster, and the consequences of saving each other.  The music cues were perfect.  We pealed back another layer of Dean Winchester and got inside his walls.  He had nice chemistry with Layla.  I was surprised when it turned out to be the wife.  Dean's "I'll pray for you."  Death was still mysterious.  There was a really nice blink and you'll miss it moment.  It takes place just as Dean returns from the hospital.  He walks into the hotel room and Sam turns his back for a moment to close the door.  We see Dean's face scrunch up in pain and his hand move toward his chest.  When Sam turns back, Dean's hand drops quickly and his game face is firmly back in place.  It's these little things that make Jensen such a good actor.  I also have a head canon that it really was Chuck that reached out to the reverend and told him Dean's important job.  He's the firewall between light and dark. 

2. Nightshifter- This is another near perfect episode.  I loved everything about it.  Dean's relationship with Ronald.  Him taking charge.  Dean's relationship with Hendrikson was so interesting. (His was the first death I would never forgive the show for)  It has the best music cue of the entire series.   The phone call between Hendrikson and Dean was one of my favorite underated Dean moments.  Basically, I loved about the Dean/Hendrikson dynamic. 

3. Jus in Bello- This is another great episode, other than Hendrikson's death.  He would have made such a great hunter and ally to Sam and Dean.  *Sigh.  Such a waste of a great character.  This one had lots of great Dean moments.  It gave me leader Dean, which is my favorite characteristic.  Smart, thinking outside of the box Dean.  Another one of my favorite characteristics.  His plan was a good one.  He saved the majority of the people.  Its not his fault one of them escaped.  I liked that Dean wans't willing to trust a demon.  Ruby's agenda was to get Sam to turn darkside.  There was no guarantee she was telling the truth. 

4. Criss Angel is a Douchebag- This ep was mostly about the magicians.  I can't even really remember any stand out Dean moments.

5. Swap Meat-  One of the worst episodes of the series.  It was the first episode I almost turned off.  Halfway through, I picked up my book and started reading.  For Sam and Dean having this supposed super duper bond, it took Dean way to long to figure it out, and the show didn't' do itself any favors when the trigger for Dean was that Sam was nice to him and wanted to hang out with him.  Plus, who cares if they left a dead kid on the floor of his parents basement but who cares becasue Gary got a girlfriend.  Massive eye roll.  It also didn't help that this ep introduced another dropped plot point of demons having a bounty on Dean's head. 

6. Like a Virgin- This is another ep I didn't like.  The dragons were lame and I really disliked the scene with the sword in the rock.   Yes, Jensen has good comedic skills but I didn't like the message it sent.

7.  Time after Time- I liked this this one.  We had smart Dean, with his out of the box thinking.  I loved Nick Lea's Krycek on The X-Files and he and Dean had some nice chemistry.   The only thing that dampened this episode for me was the conversation in the car when Dean once again had the words boo hoo thrown at him and his feelings invalidated.  Why should Dean open up when everyone tells him to suck his feelings back up.  Shallow moment. I love a man in a well fitting suit, and Dean dressed as a person from the 40s-  I need some ice.

8. As Time Goes By-  This was an okay ep.  I liked Dean's interactions with Henry.   But I disliked the turn back to "I must protect Sammy" turn this episode took.  But I did like Dean's idea to put the devil's trap on the bullet. 

9. Sharp Teeth- This one had some nice Dean moments.  It had smart/thinking outside of the box Dean with him wearing the two jackets to fool the werewolves.  Jensen's acting for me in season 9 was on a whole different level and this ep was no exception.  I felt bad for him when Garth brought up Kevin.  He's still beating himself up over Kevin's death.  It gave me one of my favorite descriptions of Dean.  "He could start a fight in an empty house but underneath he's a big ole Teddy Bear."  So true.  That knife throw....excuse me I need more ice. 

10. About a Boy- This is another one I liked.  We got another little glimpse of Dean's childhood and I liked his interactions with Tina.   Dylan Everett does a really good job. 

11. Don't you Forget about Me-  This was more of an unofficial backdoor pilot for Wayward sisters.  I did like Dean telling off Claire for her attitude against Jody.  Plus, shallow moment, Dean looked like a model walking down the hallway in his suit.

12. Stuck in the Middle With You- Zero redeeming qualities.  Dean wasn't even needed for this ep.  I like to pretend it doesn't exist. 

13. Various and Sundry Villains- Jensen did a nice job with the comedy stuff, but I didn't really like this ep.

Overall episode 12 is a mixed bag, but I liked more than I disliked. 

Favorite ep- tie between Nightshifter and Faith.  Least favorite- Stuck in the Middle with you. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

2. Nightshifter- This is another near perfect episode.  I loved everything about it.  Dean's relationship with Ronald.  Him taking charge.  Dean's relationship with Hendrikson was so interesting. (His was the first death I would never forgive the show for)  It has the best music cue of the entire series.   The phone call between Hendrikson and Dean was one of my favorite underated Dean moments.  Basically, I loved about the Dean/Hendrikson dynamic. 

All that. Especially the bolded. And this.

 

[catrox14]

I will forever maintain, that Nightshifter would be the best premise for a Supernatural movie. It's my "way in" episode for newbie viewers even more than the pilot to a great extent.  

[Supafanstan]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I will forever maintain, that Nightshifter would be the best premise for a Supernatural movie. It's my "way in" episode for newbie viewers even more than the pilot to a great extent.  

Agree. It's brilliant.

[bethy]

Nightshifter has one of my favorite Dean quotes: I like him. He says "okey-dokey."

Also one of my favorite Jensen face-acting moments: When his face goes from "Here we go, get ready for a truth bomb, Ron" to "Wow, I'm not sure I knew my brother could be so cold" in the space of about two seconds. And how impressed he was with Ron's theory:

Also:

Just so, so pretty. 

[catrox14]

The only negative for me for Nightshifter is that shirt Dean wears. I don't think that's his best color.

@bethy , totally agree on that acting moment.  I also liked the moment when Dean seemed almost sad that Sam wouldn't tell Ronald the truth.

[bethy]

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The only negative for me for Nightshifter is that shirt Dean wears. I don't think that's his best color.

@bethy , totally agree on that acting moment.  I also liked the moment when Dean seemed almost sad that Sam wouldn't tell Ronald the truth.

I think it’s the magic of the Ackles because that is truly a horrible shirt and yet, for me, this is one of Dean’s most attractive episodes - even in the scenes where he’s wearing that monstrosity. 

[ILoveReading]

That wasn't my favorite shirt. I'm also not a fan of the shirt he had on in Ask Jeeves.

Now the red shirt of bad decisions....where's my ice

Edited June 19, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Now the red shirt of bad decisions....where's my ice

AKA Dean's Murder Shirt .....HOT

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

AKA Dean's Murder Shirt .....HOT

LOL! Every time he appears on screen in that shirt I think, "uh oh, Dean's wearing the murder shirt!" and I immediately wait for a kickass Dean fight scene :)

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Favorite ep- tie between Nightshifter and Faith.

These are my favorite eps also.

 

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Jus in Bello- This is another great episode, other than Hendrikson's death.  He would have made such a great hunter and ally to Sam and Dean.  *Sigh.  Such a waste of a great character.

I will never get over the awesome potential that Henriksen had as a hunter and as Dean's new BFF.

[DeeDee79]

I'll take a stab at episode 12 observations:

FAITH: I loved this episode. It was wonderful because it was the first time in season one that I truly felt that Sam loved Dean just as much as Dean loved Sam. Also his selflessness in wanting another to be cured in his place. Even though he didn't believe he was still willing to put others before himself which was consistent with Dean's character. Also, as @ILoveReading pointed out in hindsight I head canon that Chuck intervened and told the healer of Dean's importance. Also, the series 2nd best song usage.

NIGHTSHIFTER: Easily my favorite episode. I loved Dean's bond with Ronald and his indulgent attitude when he fumbled through his reasoning for thinking that the robber wasn't human. Ronald bonding aside I will always love this episode for introducing us to Victor Henriksen and giving us the only character ( beside Death ) that knocked Dean off kilter while leaving us wanting more of their interactions. Bonus was the escape and the series best song usage.

JUS IN BELLO: A wonderful follow up to Dean's introduction to Victor and the episode that still makes me shake an angry fist. I love everything from Victor's pleased smirk when Sam & Dean are being arrested in Bela's hotel room to Dean's insistence that no matter what they were up against he wasn't going to resort to inhumane means in order to win. Just a wonderful episode all around.

CRISS ANGEL IS  A DOUCHEBAG: Honestly I barely remember anything about this episode. 

SWAP MEAT: I largely agree with Dean girls that this episode does Dean a disservice because he would never go so long without realizing that Sam wasn't really Sam. It had a few entertaining moments so I won't write it off completely.

LIKE A VIRGIN: I mostly enjoy the music montage with "Back In The Saddle Again" but I did like the bro hug when Sam thought that he was seeing Dean for the first time after his soul was restored.

TIME AFTER TIME: I was thrilled when I saw Alex Krycek on my screen. One of my favorite villains from my favorite tv show. I have to say that I didn't have a problem with his "boo hoo" to Dean. I can handwave it because during that time period it was likely that men would mock other men for perceived weakness and he didn't have an emotional tie to Dean as Bobby did when he made the same speech ( Fuck You, Bobby! ) and he had respect for Dean's abilities and instincts as a fellow hunter.

AS TIME GOES BY: I liked Henry and though the circumstances were beyond his control I understood Dean's animosity as he remembered vividly how hard his father took his father's perceived abandonment. Also, this gave us one of Dean's best "no time for your shit" expressions: 

SHARP TEETH: Don't remember, didn't rewatch.

ABOUT A BOY: Loved this ep. Dylan Everett was an amazing Dean and showed us that he was kickass and heroic even as young boy.

DON"T YOU FORGET ABOUT ME: More WS centric but the only episode where Claire didn't annoy the shit out of me. 

STUCK IN THE MIDDLE WITH YOU: Not a standout. didn't rewatch after the first viewing.

VARIOUS AND SUNDRY VILLIANS: Ridiculous witches and story though I did like the store clerk's obvious appreciation for Dean. We should see more of that; Dean is freaking hot!!

Favorite Ep: 3 way tie between Faith, Nightshifter and Jus In Bello. Least Favorite Criss Angel Is A Douchbag due to the overall boringness.

Edited June 20, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Katy M]

Faith:  There are parts of this episode I love, but there are parts I hate, just from a personal standpoint.  Dean's angst at someone having died for him was one of the pretty great parts.

Nightshifter:  I am so in the minority on this, but I feel like this episode is only OK.  Don't get me wrong, I like it. But, not nearly as much as most people on this board.  I think my fave Dean part is his phone convo with Henricksen.

Jus in Bello:  Now, this episode, I love.  My favorite Dean part is "Nobody's killing any virgins."

Criss Angel Is a Douche Bag:  Just a so-so epi.  I don't  hate it, though. I think it had an interesting premise.  Just needed more of our boys.  I think Dean's best part was his scene with the chief.  Bringing a smile to my face as I think about it.

Swap Meat:  This episode gets on my nerves for two reasons.  One is that Sam is a hundred feet taller than Gary, so when Sam is in Gary's body and people are looking up to him, it's weird, and vice versa with Dean looking down at Gary.  That, and how on earth did it take Dean so long to figure out something was not right.  If this were any other show, I wouldn't have such a problem with that, because you assume people are who they are.  But, in a world of shapeshifter and possessions and Dean doesn't think it's weird that Sam says whatever weird thing it is that he says when they go to kill Maggie, is just stupid.  Anyway, having got that off my chest, I think Dean's best moment is the double exorcism with Gary.

Like a Virgin:  I love this episode.  My favorite Dean part is his battle with the rock:)  

Time After Time:  I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I hate time travel.  But, I do like it when Dean gets all giddy about stuff and his excitement over Elliott Ness is no exception

As Time Goes By:  Still hate time travel.  TBH, I'm not super crazy about Dean in this one.  He acts like John was father of the year.  It doesn't dawn on him until quite far into the epi that Henry didn't just abandon John. And, he thinks Harry is an awful person for putting MOLs above his family, yet again, at the same time, defending John and saying that John was always there for him.  John could have died on a hunt at any time when they were kids.  And they didn't even have a mother, or as far as I can tell any other family, to fall back on.  

Sharp Teeth:  Not crazy about this epi.  I also don't think there are any real Dean standout moments, either.  I think he should have just quoted himself from Season 2 and said "If it's supernatural we kill it," and taken out the whole pack.  Garth included.  Because I'm evil.  And I don't care because it's just a show.

About a Boy:  I think my favorite Dean moment is when he's eating cake and then Tina says it might be poisoned.  The look on his face. 

Don't You Forget About Me:  Again, not a lot of  Dean standout moments.  I found it more odd that he was trying to act all dad around Alex's boyfriend.

Stuck in the Middle with You:  I've never been sure how I feel about this episode.  If they shot the whole series this way, I would have been out after the first epi.  I barely remember anything Dean did in this episode.  Or, Sam either for that matter. Definitely Mary centric.

Various and Sundry Villains:  Only seen this once, but I think I liked it.  I liked Dean when he went in and was talking to the clerk in the store, but I can't really remember why, because, like I said only seen it once.  And, I liked at the beginning when Dean punched Sam out and then didn't even bother taking the car keys.  

My favorite episode was probably Like a Virgin.  Least favorit was Sharp Teeth. By a mile.   Man, how I almost hate season 9.

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

But I did like Dean's idea to put the devil's trap on the bullet. 

I think that was Henry's idea.

 

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Plus, who cares if they left a dead kid on the floor of his parents basement but who cares becasue Gary got a girlfriend. 

To be fair, they did nothing to get that kid killed.  That was all on him.

[Myrelle]

This might take some time so I'll do what I can for now...

Faith-The HurtDean fiend in me loved when he got electrocuted. It looked so real-not that I've ever seen anyone actually electrocuted, but man, Jensen sold that for me. And yes, that little moment when he came into the hotel room and before that when he was in the hospital all pale and shadow-eyed. I loved every Dean scene in this one. Every single one, especially that end scene with Layla.

Nightshifter-Awesome episode all around. Edge of your seat stuff and Dean was Amazing in this one. I loved when he asked Ronald to take him and let everyone else go. That was so Dean. And when he was listening to how Ronald pieced everything together. And the phone call to Hendrickson. And his face when he pinpointed the guy in the vault who the shifter was hiding in after finding the dead guy in the ceiling. And his face after Ronald's death. And that violently sensual fight with Sherry the Shifter. That was something else. And Phil Srgiccia came close to rivaling Kim Manners in capturing the beauty of Jensen in this one, IMO.

Jus in Bello-Another edge of your seat episode. I loved when Dean got shot. And when Nancy patched him up. God, he was so beautiful there. I loved every scene that Dean and Hendrickson were a part of. I loved his plan and hated Ruby with the fire of ten thousand suns in this one for making it seem as if hers was "better" As if. Ever. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

Criss Angel-Definitely a guest star episode. I remember Dean almost getting hung, though. He sold that so well, too.

Swap Meat-I don't really hate this one. It was just meh to me and yes, Dean should have figured out it wasn't Sam sooner, but that it took GarySam saying something nice to Dean to bring it home to him?-well, that was no surprise to me and I did enjoy everything that happened in the hotel room afterwards. And Dean Latinating has always sent me from the very first time he did it in Crossroad Blues. I still to this day live to hear Dean Latinating...

Like a Virgin-a waste of an episode, IMO.

Time After Time-Loved this one, except for the Boo Hoo crap. I hated that with the fire of ten thousand suns, too. But Dean in those forties duds was worth it all, as was the Ackting that went along with them. I really wanted to see Jensen in something else from this time period after this episode. I still do.

As Time Goes By-I love Jensen's chemistry with Gil McKinney so much. The story was kind of weak, but I also love Abaddon/Josie so this ensemble of actors  helped make the episode work for me.

About a Boy-I liked this one a lot, too. I loved when Dean killed the witch. He was terrifying to me in that moment. So. Angry. Loved it. And yes, the scenes with Tina, both younger and older Tina, were terrific, too. And the kid who played young Dean is so good.

Sharp Teeth-Loved this one. Dean was  So. Bad. Ass. in it-my favorite flavor of Dean.

I honestly can't remember too much about the rest of them, except for Stuck in the Middle with You which has earned the distinction of being one of my least favorite of the entire series, not to mention my Least Favorite here. Favorite is tougher, but I think I'd have to go with Faith by just hair over Nightshifter and JIB.

Hey look at that. I got it done. YAY! me!! ;-)

[gonzosgirrl]

9 hours ago, Myrelle said:

It was just meh to me and yes, Dean should have figured out it wasn't Sam sooner, but that it took GarySam saying something nice to Dean to bring it home to him?-

It says something that this is also how Dean recognized that John was possessed in Devil's Trap. Because his father was too nice to him, and that just saying he was proud of him was enough to qualify as too nice. Jesus.

I would do the episodes thing - but I would just be repeating what all y'all have already said. So 'yeah, that' to everyone! Maybe I'll get in sooner one of these times! LOL.

[BabySpinach]

Ok, so I've been mulling some thoughts over for a while now.

Has anyone noticed that throughout the entire show's run, there have been way more Sam and Cas torture scenes while Dean has practically none? The scenes I'm referring to are the exploitative and borderline fetishistic scenarios where Sam or Cas are entirely helpless and forced to suffer horrific pain with nothing to do but scream nobly. I can't help but feel that this is related to their gradual woobification and cinnamon roll status over time. 

The only similar scenes for Dean that I can recall are in 1.22, with Azazel, and in 10.03, where Dean is strapped to a chair and forced to endure "necessary" torture at Sam's hands. We never saw any scenes of Dean in hell aside from 3.16, despite us getting hit over the head with Sam's memories of the Cage over multiple seasons.

Basically, we've rarely seen Dean in a situation where he's completely helpless and suffering as a passive victim. When he actually is in a sticky situation, he's always working some angle for escape, which I feel has helped to make him the character with the most agency and drive.

Of course, the downside is that both fans and characters hold him responsible for everyone else's choices, since he comes across as having the most control over things, even when he actually doesn't. 

Does anyone have any ideas as to why there's such a discrepancy between Dean vs. Sam and Cas? My theory is that the writers use "torture the woobie" as a cheap way to cultivate sympathy for the characters rather than directly address and explore the reasons for why they would need an audience sympathy boost.

ETA: I should add that Sam and Cas almost always try to escape (and sometimes succeed), but not before it's hammered home that they're SUFFERING SO HARD, YOU GUYS. With Dean, he usually gets away before anything terrible and exploitative happens to him. I don't know, it's just interesting to me. 

Edited June 22, 2018 by BabySpinach

[Aeryn13]

Dean is usually the one threatened with suggestive, sexual violence, with especially demons getting in his face, touching him suggestively, making remarks and stuff like that. 

But you are right that outright torture scenes, they shy away from showing with him. Whereas with other characters, they are used in a woobifying manner. I mean, Jack, early on in the scene, stabbing himself was portrayed like "awww, poor thing" even though it didn`t hurt him and he didn`t even feel real pain from it. 

I think it is some form of trying to always portray Dean as the "tough one" (and even somewhat as the untouchable leader though I`m very sure that is wholly accidental on their parts) who isn`t woobified. Which of course gets him less of the "awww, poor baby" sympathy. What Dean gets is emotional vulnerability speeches, not so much bodily vulnerability.  

It`s interesting to compare to some other CW shows because on Arrow, they also show Oliver as this ultra-tough guy and he gets quite a lot of rather gruesome onscreen torture scenes - usually to show how tough he is by being able to physically endure this. So far, I`ve have seen him whipped, branded, waterboarded, stabbed and so on. 

Meanwhile on their vampire shows, they loved highly visual torture scenes with their supernatural characters (because they healed so quickly, you could do a lot) and it was male and female characters alike, no character was spared ever.

Supernatural does versions of both with either Sam or Cas but really not Dean.  

[BabySpinach]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is usually the one threatened with suggestive, sexual violence, with especially demons getting in his face, touching him suggestively, making remarks and stuff like that. 

But you are right that outright torture scenes, they shy away from showing with him. Whereas with other characters, they are used in a woobifying manner. I mean, Jack, early on in the scene, stabbing himself was portrayed like "awww, poor thing" even though it didn`t hurt him and he didn`t even feel real pain from it. 

I think it is some form of trying to always portray Dean as the "tough one" (and even somewhat as the untouchable leader though I`m very sure that is wholly accidental on their parts) who isn`t woobified. Which of course gets him less of the "awww, poor baby" sympathy. What Dean gets is emotional vulnerability speeches, not so much bodily vulnerability.  

It`s interesting to compare to some other CW shows because on Arrow, they also show Oliver as this ultra-tough guy and he gets quite a lot of rather gruesome onscreen torture scenes - usually to show how tough he is by being able to physically endure this. So far, I`ve have seen him whipped, branded, waterboarded, stabbed and so on. 

Meanwhile on their vampire shows, they loved highly visual torture scenes with their supernatural characters (because they healed so quickly, you could do a lot) and it was male and female characters alike, no character was spared ever.

Supernatural does versions of both with either Sam or Cas but really not Dean.  

Yeah, the onscreen sufferings of Sam and Cas far outstrip Dean's. I'm reminded of Red Meat (blergh), which took extreme care to show us every EXCRUCIATING second of Sam's huffing and puffing in pain while he did everything as slowly as humanly possible. I could never imagine Dean in a role like that, in which some horrible injury is drawn out for uninterrupted minutes so as to linger on his agonized groans. In the actual episode, it got old (and kind of funny) real quick.

[Aeryn13]

I think the depiction in Red Meat was just stupid because it focused on the utter Superman effect of Sam here who jumped up from his deathbed and still killed all the werewolves. 

Dean doesn`t have quite a comparable scene to that. Maybe something that would come closest would be him fighting off his own hunger as a vampire and still taking out an entire vamp nest. IF they had deemed to show the action onscreen. 

But in terms of torture I`m thinking of Lady Deadeyes with the burned feet and stuff like that. That was Arrow-like in terms of torture depiction. When she started going in on Dean with a beating, the camera cut away on the other hand.

We did see  Dean getting beat to smithereens by Lucifer in 5.22 and by Cas in two episodes but in those scenes the main focus wasn`t sympathy factor for Dean. It was either about him being a plot device or even "he is wrong and deserves it". 

[BabySpinach]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But in terms of torture I`m thinking of Lady Deadeyes with the burned feet and stuff like that. That was Arrow-like in terms of torture depiction. When she started going in on Dean with a beating, the camera cut away on the other hand.

We did see  Dean getting beat to smithereens by Lucifer in 5.22 and by Cas in two episodes but in those scenes the main focus wasn`t sympathy factor for Dean. It was either about him being a plot device or even "he is wrong and deserves it". 

Yeah, Toni Baloney's scenes with Sam were precisely what I was thinking of in terms of fetishistic torture scenes (not to mention that ridiculous, creepy sex dream she put him in). Dean got a few punches, none of the torture that Toni was threatening him with, and picked the manacles the first chance he got. 

I will forever be bitter about Cas' beatdown of Dean. We were clearly meant to be on Cas' side, despite Dean having no choice but to take it and pray for it to be over soon. I certainly felt bad for him, but for once that actually wasn't the show's intention.

[devlin]

8 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Ok, so I've been mulling some thoughts over for a while now.

Has anyone noticed that throughout the entire show's run, there have been way more Sam and Cas torture scenes while Dean has practically none? The scenes I'm referring to are the exploitative and borderline fetishistic scenarios where Sam or Cas are entirely helpless and forced to suffer horrific pain with nothing to do but scream nobly. I can't help but feel that this is related to their gradual woobification and cinnamon roll status over time. 

The only similar scenes for Dean that I can recall are in 1.22, with Azazel, and in 10.03, where Dean is strapped to a chair and forced to endure "necessary" torture at Sam's hands. We never saw any scenes of Dean in hell aside from 3.16, despite us getting hit over the head with Sam's memories of the Cage over multiple seasons.

Basically, we've rarely seen Dean in a situation where he's completely helpless and suffering as a passive victim. When he actually is in a sticky situation, he's always working some angle for escape, which I feel has helped to make him the character with the most agency and drive.

Of course, the downside is that both fans and characters hold him responsible for everyone else's choices, since he comes across as having the most control over things, even when he actually doesn't. 

Does anyone have any ideas as to why there's such a discrepancy between Dean vs. Sam and Cas? My theory is that the writers use "torture the woobie" as a cheap way to cultivate sympathy for the characters rather than directly address and explore the reasons for why they would need an audience sympathy boost.

ETA: I should add that Sam and Cas almost always try to escape (and sometimes succeed), but not before it's hammered home that they're SUFFERING SO HARD, YOU GUYS. With Dean, he usually gets away before anything terrible and exploitative happens to him. I don't know, it's just interesting to me. 

I agree with your theory in that it’s just a cheap ploy done by the writers to coerce the audience into feeling sorry for a certain character. I personally think this is really insulting because the writers are essentially telling us how we should be watching the show which in turn makes me reject that character even more. I am glad that they don’t rely on such tactics with regards to dean. JA’s portrayal is more than enough to garner my sympathy 

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It says something that this is also how Dean recognized that John was possessed in Devil's Trap. Because his father was too nice to him, and that just saying he was proud of him was enough to qualify as too nice. Jesus.

That's pretty depressing. Oh, Dean! *hugs him*

[Myrelle]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:04 PM, BabySpinach said:

Ok, so I've been mulling some thoughts over for a while now.

Has anyone noticed that throughout the entire show's run, there have been way more Sam and Cas torture scenes while Dean has practically none? The scenes I'm referring to are the exploitative and borderline fetishistic scenarios where Sam or Cas are entirely helpless and forced to suffer horrific pain with nothing to do but scream nobly. I can't help but feel that this is related to their gradual woobification and cinnamon roll status over time. 

The only similar scenes for Dean that I can recall are in 1.22, with Azazel, and in 10.03, where Dean is strapped to a chair and forced to endure "necessary" torture at Sam's hands. We never saw any scenes of Dean in hell aside from 3.16, despite us getting hit over the head with Sam's memories of the Cage over multiple seasons.

Basically, we've rarely seen Dean in a situation where he's completely helpless and suffering as a passive victim. When he actually is in a sticky situation, he's always working some angle for escape, which I feel has helped to make him the character with the most agency and drive.

Of course, the downside is that both fans and characters hold him responsible for everyone else's choices, since he comes across as having the most control over things, even when he actually doesn't. 

Does anyone have any ideas as to why there's such a discrepancy between Dean vs. Sam and Cas? My theory is that the writers use "torture the woobie" as a cheap way to cultivate sympathy for the characters rather than directly address and explore the reasons for why they would need an audience sympathy boost.

ETA: I should add that Sam and Cas almost always try to escape (and sometimes succeed), but not before it's hammered home that they're SUFFERING SO HARD, YOU GUYS. With Dean, he usually gets away before anything terrible and exploitative happens to him. I don't know, it's just interesting to me. 

 

Yeah, I've noticed this too. They usually cut away from the worst of it when Dean is the one being tortured, while we're forced to sit through endless screaming scenes from Cas and Sam. I'm not really sure what's up with it other than, as has been mentioned the woobiness factor. Those kind of scenes do little for me and I've always felt that the writing on this show is better when they leave some things more to the imagination. But the times that I can remember them doing it with Dean, it's as Aeryn says here:

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:42 PM, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is usually the one threatened with suggestive, sexual violence, with especially demons getting in his face, touching him suggestively, making remarks and stuff like that. 

But you are right that outright torture scenes, they shy away from showing with him. Whereas with other characters, they are used in a woobifying manner. I mean, Jack, early on in the scene, stabbing himself was portrayed like "awww, poor thing" even though it didn`t hurt him and he didn`t even feel real pain from it. 

I think it is some form of trying to always portray Dean as the "tough one" (and even somewhat as the untouchable leader though I`m very sure that is wholly accidental on their parts) who isn`t woobified. Which of course gets him less of the "awww, poor baby" sympathy. What Dean gets is emotional vulnerability speeches, not so much bodily vulnerability. 

And Dean's mouthiness, it's also one of the weapons in his arsenal that he uses against the baddies when they DO have him at a disasdvantage-The Benders, comes to mind from early seasons and yes, the confrontation with the yellow-eyed demon in Devil's Trap was one of the few that gave us both(and notice that Dean never really screamed out loudly even in that one-it was more excruciating pain while he was trying to keep the screaming to a minimum at the same time to keep the demonic satisfaction level lower, which made it seem more real to me because this has always been a character trait of Dean's from early on, IMO, and one that I've always, always loved about him). But yes, The Thing from this season, and the later season episode with Abaddon when she had him in her clutches that first time were some of the best examples of this, whereas even going to back to A Supernatural Christmas they actually showed us Sam getting his fingernail pulled off and screaming his head off while the door bell conveniently rang before they pulled Dean's tooth out and his quips actually turned it more comedic, tbh-which worked for me fine back then and before they made too much of what he does seem clownish and/or comedic, with S12 becoming the worst offender, IMO.

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:31 PM, devlin said:

I agree with your theory in that it’s just a cheap ploy done by the writers to coerce the audience into feeling sorry for a certain character. I personally think this is really insulting because the writers are essentially telling us how we should be watching the show which in turn makes me reject that character even more. I am glad that they don’t rely on such tactics with regards to dean. JA’s portrayal is more than enough to garner my sympathy 

But honestly, I'd have to agree with Devlin here. And I think that even when they've given us scenes like the ones in The Prisoner and Soul Survivor, I like the way that Jensen plays the pain much more. It's like Dean fights it all the way and you can tell that he's going to hold off from full screaming for as long as he possibly can-which, again fits with his on-going characterization for me. And it was again for me, one of the best things about that recent S13 episode wherein Dean and Ketch entered the AU together, whereas the late season episode where Sam was "killed" by the AU vamps did pretty much nothing for me in that regard.

And I've always, always felt that no actor I've ever seen "dies" better than The Ackles. He is the King of Death Scenes for me and I honestly think that he always will be.

And Dean hanging by those meat hooks in Hell at the end of S3 can never be topped as far as the creep factor went for me. That, was some kind of a scene to leave us with going into the summer hiatus. Those were the days, weren't they?...

Edited June 25, 2018 by Myrelle

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, I've noticed this too. They usually cut away from the worst of it when Dean is the one being tortured, while we're forced to sit through endless screaming scenes from Cas and Sam. I'm not really sure what's up with it other than, as has been mentioned the woobiness factor. Those kind of scenes do little for me and I've always felt that the writing on this show is better when they leave some things more to the imagination. But the times that I can remember them doing it with Dean, it's as Aeryn says here:

I wish they would cut away all the time. Or, just not have torture scenes.  Are they really necessary?  Are long torture sessions really what Kripke had in mind when he created a show about supernatural hunters?

[BabySpinach]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, I've noticed this too. They usually cut away from the worst of it when Dean is the one being tortured, while we're forced to sit through endless screaming scenes from Cas and Sam. I'm not really sure what's up with it other than, as has been mentioned the woobiness factor. Those kind of scenes do little for me and I've always felt that the writing on this show is better when they leave some things more to the imagination. But the times that I can remember them doing it with Dean, it's as Aeryn says here:

And Dean's mouthiness, it's also one of the weapons in his arsenal that he uses against the baddies when they DO have him at a disasdvantage-The Benders, comes to mind from early seasons and yes, the confrontation with the yellow-eyed demon in Devil's Trap was one of the few that gave us both(and notice that Dean never really screamed out loudly even in that one-it was more excruciating pain while he was trying to keep the screaming to a minimum at the same time to keep the demonic satisfaction level lower, which made it seem more real to me because this has always been a character trait of Dean's from early on, IMO, and one that I've always, always loved about him). But yes, The Thing from this season, and the later season episode with Abaddon when she had him in her clutches that first time were some of the best examples of this, whereas even going to back to A Supernatural Christmas they actually showed us Sam getting his fingernail pulled off and screaming his head off while the door bell conveniently rang before they pulled Dean's tooth out and his quips actually turned it more comedic, tbh-which worked for me fine back then and before they made too much of what he does seem clownish and/or comedic, with S12 becoming the worst offender, IMO.

But honestly, I'd have to agree with Devlin here. And I think that even when they've given us scenes like the ones in The Prisoner and Soul Survivor, I like the way that Jensen plays the pain much more. It's like Dean fights it all the way and you can tell that he's going to hold off from full screaming for as long as he possibly can-which, again fits with his on-going characterization for me. And it was again for me, one of the best things about that recent S13 episode wherein Dean and Ketch entered the AU together, whereas the late season episode where Sam was "killed" by the AU vamps did pretty much nothing for me in that regard.

 

On the rare occasions that we see Dean in pain onscreen, it's always directly connected to the plot, whereas for Sam and Cas it usually seems excessive in its detail and duration. The Christmas episode with Sam's nail and Dean's tooth is a perfect summation of that weird disparity, although I'm sure it wasn't intentionally so. I also prefer Jensen's more downplayed expressions of pain. It's consistent with Dean's character and helps to avoid the Dramatic Suffering Woobie Syndrome.

Edited June 25, 2018 by BabySpinach

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

I wish they would cut away all the time. Or, just not have torture scenes.  Are they really necessary?  Are long torture sessions really what Kripke had in mind when he created a show about supernatural hunters?

I honestly liked the manner of "horror" that they gave us in the early episodes. I loved the hand in the disposal thing. Totally loved it. And as I said, even the horror in the Christmas episode worked terrifically for me; but I feel like they moved away from this kind of horror in the later seasons-which is too bad, IMO, as I see that kind/type of horror as much more affective than the gratuitous stuff of the latter seasons. 

[FlickChick]

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I loved the hand in the disposal thing. Totally loved it.

I cannot, repeat, cannot watch that to this day! Or the fingernail pulling (I imagine) in the Christmas episode. Let's face it - I'm a wuss.

Edited June 26, 2018 by FlickChick
needed a second comma...

[ILoveReading]

Up next is episode 13

1. Route 666- I know this is usually considered one of the worst episodes of the show, but I liked it.  I thought we got some good insight into Dean.  It also showed that in his own way Dean did rebel against John.  Sam walked away but still chose to follow John's rules.  Dean stayed but he broke cardinal rule number one to not tell anyone what they do.   I didn't really like the story much it was kind of 'meh but it was a really good character piece for Dean.  It's yet another example of Dean not being emotionally closed off. 

2. Houses of the Holy- This is another episode I liked.  I think Dean's confession why he doesn't' believe is very underrated. 

3. Ghostfacers- not really a Sam and Dean ep, but I did like that we got Smart Dean on display with him making the magnet that wiped out the harddrive.  Plus, I liked seeing Dean swear (even if it was bleeped out.

4.After School Special- This ep really had nothing good Dean related, other than a shallow moment of Jensen dressed in that gym outfit.  This episode made me appreciate just how much Jensen brings to the role of Dean.  I found everything about young Dean to be completely ooc.

5.The Song Remains the Same- I really liked this ep.  I liked seing Dean interact with Mary and John and his confrontation with Michael was great acting by Jensen.  It left me really wanting to see Jensen play Michael.  Too bad it didn't materialize.  But that is a discussion for another thread.

6. Unforgiven- This episode makes my top 10 worst eps.  I don't even remember anything Dean did in this ep.

7. The Slice Girls- The less said about this episode the better.

8.Everybody Hates Hitler- Okay enough episode but nothing really special about it.  I enjoyed Dean's reaction to Aaron flirting with him. 

9. The Purge- As weird as this sounds because there was nothing really good for Dean in this ep, I loved it.  It's in my top 10 list.  I really liked Dean and his interactions with Donna.  Jensen's acting was just on another level.  Acting teachers should use it to explain "finding what's not on the page."  There was so much going on with Dean in this ep.  He was trying to hard to keep things normal with Sam and pretend he wasn't hurt, but not quite managing it.  The way his control slipped and he almost became manic in the interview.  How Dean just looked so tired and done this whole episode.  How Jensen managed to take Dean's exhaustion and double it after he was roofied.  Seriously, for me this was an emmy award winning performance for Jensen.    Seriously how does Jensen manage to turn his eyes on and off like that?

10. Halt and Catch Fire- Kind of a 'meh ep.  The only thing I really remember is Dean talking to the girl assuring her that he understood and made mistakes too. 

11. Love Hurts- I didn't like this one at all.  Dean finally winning rock/paper/sissors was a cute moment but that was it.  I thought the conversation at the end was very overrated and not supportive of Dean at all.  Dean's confidence is down about his connection to Amara (despite that fact that he beat her twice but forget about that because look- shiny BM).  Why didn't Sam reassure Dean he'd do it if necessary but that Dean was strong than he thinks he is. 

12. Family Feud- Another ep that didn't really make an impression.  I remember being glad that Dean knew the knife was aztec but other than that I don't remember much about it.

13. Devil's Bargain- I wanted to like this ep because of Danneel.  But too much Lucifer.  I don't think Dean was even needed for this ep as there isn't anything I think would change if he wasn't in it.

Overall ep 13 seems to be a mixed bag. 

Favorite- The Purge

Least Favourite - After School Special

Edited July 6, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

7. The Slice Girls- The less said about this episode the better.

You can say two words: shirtless Jensen.

>:-)

[BabySpinach]

1. Route 666

The racial theme was handled with the subtlety and nuance of a ton of bricks. This episode is also the first of the show to feature a sex scene, which is fairly noteworthy in my book (lol). The concept of a racist truck sounds so fucking stupid on paper, but I didn't really feel that this one was atrociously bad. At least we got to see yet another new side of Dean that helped to round him out as a complex character.

2. Houses of the Holy

A really great one that hit on some heavy themes (with subtlety and nuance this time!) and demonstrated that this show was more than what it advertised itself as. Dean's views on God and angels made a lot of sense to me.

3. Ghostfacers

I can handle annoying characters if the show clearly knows that they are annoying and gives them their just desserts for being stupid. Sam and Dean are also very entertaining from an outsider's perspective. 

4. After School Special

Stank of SuperSpecial!Sam and 1-DJock!Dean (barf). Brock Kelly looked the part well enough, but he couldn't soften Dean like Jensen could. I also couldn't find it in myself to care too much for Sam's endless "I JUST WANT TO BE NORMAL" navel-gazing angst when his older brother, who's had it far worse AND had no one to complain to, was right next to him.   

5. The Song Remains the Same

Anna's about-face was rushed and made no sense for her character. I liked the introduction of Michael and the awesome set-up for what could come (but didn't). 

6. Unforgiven

Sam being a bullheaded idiot and ignoring Dean's valid concerns. Dean chasing his brother around and wringing his hands like a nanny. That terrible CGI fire shot at the very end. 

7. The Slice Girls

I don't have a lot of thoughts for this one. Obviously a MOTW, so Emma was not going to live past the episode. There went that potential. 

8. Everybody Hates Hitler

Dean's reaction to Aaron was cute. He was also weirdly proud of it when he said, "He was my gay thing."

9. The Purge

The ending scene colors everything else for me. I like Donna and lot and I liked that Dean had productive things to do during the hunt. I didn't like that he was dumped on at the end with the cruelest speech anyone has ever said on the show, coming from one of the two main characters (that we're supposed to like!). Nothing else on the show comes close to this and hopefully nothing ever will. The fury and outrage I felt actually spurred me on to make my first forum post on the IMDb boards, so there's that, I guess. 

10. Halt and Catch Fire

What I remember most is how Dean was written to be ogling college students. It was icky and out of character. Claire was almost that age, so what the actual fuck? My headcanon is that either the MoC was making Dean "hungry" for everything, or that he was trying to curb his bloodlust with other outlets. Still, ew.

11. Love Hurts

I like that Dean followed his instincts and saved the woman by transferring the monster's attention. I may have lower standards, but I liked the conversation at the end. FINALLY, Sam showed unconditional support and knew that Dean had no control over his attraction to Amara. That may be a low bar, but after The Purge, I was over the moon.

12. Family Feud

I had to look this one up to remember what it was about. Meh.

13. Devil's Bargain

Ewwwww to the sexualized grace sucking. I liked Amael, though I liked her even more when she decimated Lucifer's entire existence in 13.18. Dean had no reason to be there.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

INALLY, Sam showed unconditional support and knew that Dean had no control over his attraction to Amara. That may be a low bar, but after The Purge, I was over the moon.

I didn't really find Sam's support was unconditional because later in the season when everyone was piling on Dean about not wanting to kill Amara, Sam sat there in silence and didn't defend Dean.  Sam talks a good game. 

Maybe its because I used to volunteer in a vocational center and one of the hardest things I had to learn was that if someone was struggling with their confidence doing it for them was the worst thing because you were taking away their power.   I guess I wanted to see Sam try to build Dean up.  Because even thought I know it wasn't the writers intention, it came across that Sam agreed that Dean wasn't strong enough.

[gonzosgirrl]

You are not wrong,  Osric.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Res]

Today at ChiCon:

Q: What personality traits do your kids have from you?

JA: A will say “more” for food and Z will just reach and go “Aaaaa!” When they’re done, A will say “all done”, Z knocks everything off the tray and stares Jensen down.

Hilarious! Kids are so unique, even with the same parents.

JA: Dean’s confidence is something that has resonated with him because Dean doesn’t walk into many rooms afraid of anything. It’s helped him be more confident.

This 1 I will need to see the video for, but here's what the tweet states: If Sam and Dean were not Michael and Lucifer's vessels, how would they stop the apocalypse? @JensenAckles: Dean would get in a tank. Sam would get in a tanktop. He starts imitating Sam trying to distract Lucifer with his tank top & Dean yelling, "GET IN THE TANK, SAM!!" #SPNChi Jared added: .@jarpad : they're not seeing my legs... .@JensenAckles to @jarpad : you're like Gaston, you're all torso. @JensenAckles imitates sam in a tank top, saying to lucifer: what you gonna do about it?

You know there can't be a panel without one of these questions so everyone drink up: "jareds favorite prank was all the pennies in misha’s car & jensen’s favorite prank was on sebastian when he was getting a massage at the airport and jared pretended to be the masseuse and go into Seb's pants. Sebastian just let him and went “ooo”". Oh, and apparently Jensen somewhat acts this out, giving all the Wincesters a good time.

If @jarpad & @JensenAckles had been sent to Sam & Dean's world in TFM what would they do? JA: Well, Jensen would have no trouble kicking the door in. I think if he done the arsenal in the impala's trunk, all bets are off, because he'd go for the rocket launcher. #SPNchi #chicon

There was also a question about riding the mechanical bull. Only Jensen and his stunt double were allowed to ride it but Jensen recovered from the encounter much quicker than his double (Tom, I think). Apparently Jensen has very strong inner thighs which Jared raved about. Also, the bar was called "Roosters" which Jensen supposed it was better than "Cocks" then there were jokes involving inner tights, riding and cocks. As I stated above, the Wincesters are having a blast today.

Poor Alex has at least 4 prank questions during his panel.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Res

[Lemuria]

I came across Supernatural playing cards on Amazon.  I found one thing amusing.  The picture cards were made up of various characters:  Spades, the king was Crowley, the Queen was Rowena and the Jack was Kevin.  Clubs:  King is Cas, Queen is Meg and the Jack is Gabriel; Hearts:  King is Sam, Queen is Charlie and the Jack is Bobby.  Diamonds:  King is Dean, Queen is Abaddon and the Jack is Chuck.

So...God is Dean's wingman?  I got a chuckle out of that (even as I agreed).  I also liked that Dean's trio contained all three of the major food character groups:  Humanity, the Divine and the Demonic.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

So...God is Dean's wingman?  I got a chuckle out of that (even as I agreed).

I like that idea :)

[Myrelle]

"The main reason I had a bad feeling about Demon Dean was because of the Angelus factor. Even though Demon Dean was a demon, he was still a twisted version of Dean. Because of that, I knew the chances that Demon Dean would actually be or do anything awful or be a recurring villain in the storyline was very small. Many shows - even the arguably very good Angel: The Series - won't take the chance of showing a version of one of the main characters in that kind of light and instead end up wimping out. So for me, there wasn't going to be much advancement in the plotline, but more of the same. I truthfully didn't want to see excuses week after week for Demon Dean not to do anything really bad, because after a while the combination of the mark and being a demon should've reared its ugly head, so excuses as to why that wouldn't happen would've ended up being repetitive and silly, in my opinion. And the evidence of that couldn't have been much more annoying than the whole deflection of "Look! Even Sam is doing way worse things than Demon Dean!" I would've dreaded what else they would've had Sam do if they continued the Demon Dean storyline for too long.

In contrast, AU Michael is in no way Dean. He's just inhabiting Dean, so the Angelus factor shouldn't come into play. Actually the more bad Michael does, the more chance for drama with Dean later on (not that I would necessarily want more Dean guilt, but for the writers...) The only monkey wrench in that would be if they wanted to redeem Michael later on for some reason a la Gadreel, but I don't think they'd do that to Dean so..."

This site is being wonky on me today so I'm just going to use quotation marks for this brought over from the Bitter Spoilers thread.

I'm sure there will be some stated dislike of this storyline. It's already out there and there are and will be sundry reasons for it, just as it was with the Demon Dean storyline. The overall poor writing for the show makes that easy now and did back then, too. That's expected, but Jensen still killed it as Demon Dean. He made it all about the performance of that role and he succeeded in a grand manner, IMO and in the opinions of no few professional critics at the time, IIRC.

I think he'll do the same with Michael/Dean and I think that's what some fans-especially the ones who dominate on Twitter-are afraid of the most; because w/o Dean there will be no one to support and prop the other characters on this show. Again, JMO.

[devlin]

Without getting too sappy, I just have to say how much I love Jensen. The footage from CC is glorious, he is alone, looking relaxed and assured and gorgeous!? and there is none of the drama that surrounds certain other cast members 

[BabySpinach]

4 hours ago, devlin said:

Without getting too sappy, I just have to say how much I love Jensen. The footage from CC is glorious, he is alone, looking relaxed and assured and gorgeous!? and there is none of the drama that surrounds certain other cast members 

Not that I'm complaining (quite the opposite), but why is Jensen alone? The three of them are usually a package deal at Comic Con, right?

ETA: Also, did anyone notice how Sam the interviewer snuck in at the very beginning that Jensen was the "true star" of Supernatural? Dayyuummm!

Edited July 21, 2018 by BabySpinach

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

ETA: Also, did anyone notice how Sam the interviewer snuck in at the very beginning that Jensen was the "true star" of Supernatural? Dayyuummm!

I wouldn't be surprised if it was intended to be J2 and given Jared's online comments yesterday, maybe he wasn't feeling up to the interview so Jensen went solo and the "true star" was intended originally to be the "two stars" or something like that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Not that I'm complaining (quite the opposite), but why is Jensen alone? The three of them are usually a package deal at Comic Con, right?

ETA: Also, did anyone notice how Sam the interviewer snuck in at the very beginning that Jensen was the "true star" of Supernatural? Dayyuummm!

I know Samantha was kidding, but it still gave me a little squee. :) I wondered the same about him being alone - so odd.

It makes me a little nervous seeing how almost-insecure he is about his first episode as Mean (don't judge it too harshly!). No doubt he doesn't have a great script to work with and he's trying to layer Mean, so I hope he doesn't overreach - because you know all eyes are going to be on him and picking it apart. Hopefully the director and editor(s) are kinder to him than they were in 13x23.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know Samantha was kidding, but it still gave me a little squee. :) I wondered the same about him being alone - so odd.

I'm not complaining or questioning it. I'm just grateful. We so rarely get him alone.

And his favorite season is now 9 or 10; and not 5 or 11. He liked 3, too. How interesting.

[Pondlass1]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No doubt he doesn't have a great script to work with and he's trying to layer Mean,

I really don't know what they're going to have Michael do?  He's learning about our world, feeling his way.  But I don't want - this is a cell phone, ooh traffic lights, or anything like that.   I just wish I had faith in TPTB.  I'm looking forward with excited anticipation and dread.

[Myrelle]

50 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

ETA: Also, did anyone notice how Sam the interviewer snuck in at the very beginning that Jensen was the "true star" of Supernatural? Dayyuummm!

Wow. Just Wow.

We know that he has sometimes "carried on" by himself, when others could not.

I missed that.

*going to watch and listen again*