Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Aeryn13]

Most show, others than crime procedurals, work better with binge watching in my experience. But stuff I really dislike in episode upon episode won`t get better either way. In fact, Dean being benched for the actions so much would probably have been twice as annoying when watched without break.

The Mary storyline, well, like I said the "pay-off" was just more of the same that turned me off from the storyline in the first place. If it only HAD turned something around, made Mary less self-centered and just a taker, Dean standing up for himself for once without immediately offering forgiveness and being brushed aside. Let alone turning all his issues into a speech about Sam. While their childhood was intertwined, that is not what I`m looking for in exploration of Dean`s character. The character may not think in other terms than this but the writers could. 

I never had fond feelings for John but I find him to be the far more likeable character in hindsight. There was at least reciprocacy in the end with Dean. Mary started the Season not getting over herself and ended the Season still unable to see anything beyond herself. This was such a waste to me. 

Before Season 12 started Jensen said something about Mary having the potential to be just one more burden for Dean, someone who he feel responsible for and scared for etc. And well, she ended up being a burden. A character who destroyed the peaceful place Dean had left in his mind and left just an emotional mooch in its stead. Thanks for nothing, Mary.

[DittyDotDot]

56 minutes ago, SueB said:

I REALLY think that this kind of slow-burn season-long arc is better suited for binge watching than week to week.  That concept (binge watching) was pretty much in its infancy in S1 w/ John.  I think they are writing differently now.  But I think Dabb & company are embracing the slow-burn approach.  Since we don't have Netflix numbers, I can't say if he's playing to the larger audience or not.  

I don't know if it's better or worse for the binge-watching crowd or not, I think that all comes down to personal preferences. People tell me all the time they enjoy the show more when they binge it, but I actually enjoy the show better if I take breaks between the episodes. For me, I think it comes down to the the way this show is produced. Each one has it's own tone, which can be extremely jarring to me when I'm binging. One of the biggest one I remember on re-watch was early S8 going from Southern Comfort ending with a total bitch fest  and A Little Slice of Kevin starting off so cordial and working together smoothly.

Anyway, I think it's not so much they're writing the slow burn for the bingers, but that TV has just changed a lot in the last decade; this more serial approach seems to be more the norm than it was back in S1.

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I honestly didn't expect Dean's emotional journey to "go there".  I find it MUCH more complex and nuanced than I thought.  It says to me Mary is a long term character, not a single season arc.  For me, I disliked what was going on between Mary & Dean all year but the payoff turns it all around.  It all "fits" neatly for me now.

Now look who is echoing my thoughts! ;)

Yeah, I didn't expect what they did with Mary, but I actually prefer what they did in the end. And, I think they did a good job of debunking the Myth of Mary while also grounding it with Dean. I don't know, it worked for me. ::shrugs::

[ILoveReading]

It's true Dean might not have been reaching for alcohol or bottling up his emotions but for me laying down and letting your family walk all over you is an equally unhealthy way of dealing with them.  In that sense I disagree Dean showed character growth.  It was just more of the same.

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Finally, as for Mary, I'm bummed so many didn't see the whole 'repressed emotions'

I don't feel too bad because even Jensen didn't see them.  He admitted he was confused and off balance all season because he had no idea how to approach Dean's  interactions with Mary.  He said it clicked for him when he read the script and when he talked to Berens, Berens had no idea what Jensen was even talking about.  I don't buy he was "joking about not knowing" because if its just a conversation between him and Jensen.  Who would the audience for the joke be?

So if the writer of the ep, didn't even make the connection I'm not surprised so many viewers didn't either.   I don't think the ep was written with a connecting the dot's intention in mind, because I doubt Berens even saw them.  

I remember watching The Sixth Sense for the first time, and I had to applaud the writer because he truly had me fooled.  I didn't see the ending coming.  When I watched it a 2nd time I was able to pick up on the nuances and clues, and had several "aha moments."  I didn't get that.  Looking back there are no clues or subtleties and suggest Dean even harboured an unconscious hatred of Mary.  So, for me it failed on every level.  It was just something Berens pulled out of thin air.  That's the way it read to me. 

I agree there was no catharsis.  It was just another heart break for Dean in the end.  They didn't just deconstruct the Myth of Mary they ruined her completely.  Now, I question if she would have even stuck around if she hadn't been killed.  She certainly didn't seem interested in the whole mom business. 

Since I didn't and don't think much of Dabb as a show runner, I had ridiculously low  expectations for the Mary storyline and he managed to not even met those, but that is more a topic for the writers thread. 

As for Mary and Dean's relationship, I don't think they'll go further into it.  I think its pretty much done.  Dean talked about how much she hurt Sam, and Mary apologized to Sam.  So I doubt we'll see much more depth.

Spoiler

Other than Dean being made to apologize for thinking mary was dead, and then apologizing to Sam for not being more sympathetic. 

I feel like I'm straying a little too close to bitch/jerk territory so I'll just agree to disagree on the whole Mary issues. 

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I remember watching The Sixth Sense for the first time, and I had to applaud the writer because he truly had me fooled.  I didn't see the ending coming.

Okay, off topic, but this reminded me of when I watched The Sixth Sense for the first time. My sister had seen the movie in the theater and rented it when she was staying with me. I lived in the middle of nowhere, and lived mostly under a rock at the time, so I had no clue what the movie was even about. We were maybe 20 minutes into the movie and I looked at my sister and said, "So, Bruce Willis is dead, right?" At first she tried saying, "I don't know, you'll just have to watch and see." About five minutes later, "So, seriously, Bruce Willis is dead, right?" She looked at me with this look of complete annoyance and said, "You are so annoying!"

Apparently she was really looking forward to my shocked reaction at the end of the movie and I ruined it for her. I still enjoyed the movie immensely, but my sister was so irritated and disappointed she started doing some work on her laptop. ;)

Sorry, back on topic:

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't feel too bad because even Jensen didn't see them.  He admitted he was confused and off balance all season because he had no idea how to approach Dean's  interactions with Mary.

I actually think that was good and part of what made it work for me in the end. Jensen didn't understand why it was so hard before Dean understood it. Jensen's reaction a real, so it felt natural to me. I believe this is why Jensen doesn't like to read too far ahead or know more than what Dean knows, for the most part.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I actually think that was good and part of what made it work for me in the end. Jensen didn't understand why it was so hard before Dean understood it. Jensen's reaction a real, so it felt natural to me. I believe this is why Jensen doesn't like to read too far ahead or know more than what Dean knows, for the most part.

I agree.  

I also believe that while they did not lay the bread crumbs for the "I hate you line", they definitely laid the bread crumbs for "this relationship is not in a good spot".  That was REPEATEDLY done.  

 

From @ILoveReading:

Quote

I don't feel too bad because even Jensen didn't see them.  He admitted he was confused and off balance all season because he had no idea how to approach Dean's  interactions with Mary.  He said it clicked for him when he read the script and when he talked to Berens, Berens had no idea what Jensen was even talking about.  I don't buy he was "joking about not knowing" because if its just a conversation between him and Jensen.  Who would the audience for the joke be?

Which brings us back to that conversation Jensen relayed at JIBCON which is being interpreted as "Berens pulled this out of his ass at the last minute."  My response is.... I'm not sure that's true.  First off, try to put yourself in Bob Beren's shoes for a minute. I KNOW, personally and for a fact, he agrees with Robbie Thompson who said the boys "smell like Baby Jesus".  Not being there at the moment and not having discussed with with the man*, his conversation w/ Jensen, I cannot say what Berens was thinking at that moment.  But I'm also not sure that Jensen appreciates the 'Jensen-effect' can happen to anyone when he's talking to people.  Berens MAY have just pulled it out of his ass but that is really NOT the writer I've been following.  It's also possible what was going through Beren's mind when Jensen talked to him was "damn, he really smells like Baby Jesus". Seriously. He's only human.  So, what I'm saying is... Jensen's recollection of the encounter with Berens is just that.  I'm sure it's exactly accurate to what Jensen saw and observed.  But I'm hoping we get a definitive answer on this topic with DVD commentary.  Because the way the conflict unfolded in 12.22 was straight out of the 'playbook' for this kind of childhood trauma.  

*note... Mr Berens is NOT a personal friend.  He recognized my SM handle (@SnazzyO) when we spoke, we've had a few internet back-n-forths, and 2 in-person actual conversations. That's it.  I HAVE seen the 'smile and nod' from him and it's ...for me... open to interpretation as to WHY he's smiling and nodding. So, I can see that in my head when I hear Jensen relate the conversation. I don't want anyone to think I know the guy personally.  I'm a fan. Beyond my interactions, I've read what he's written on SM and seen him in interviews.  I've paid attention to how he writes as he has shared this on-line. 

Bottom line: I find Berens to be a very careful writer and 'pulling it out of his ass' is unlikely.  I find it more likely that his face to face moment with Jensen was potentially influenced by being face to face.  

[PAForrest]

16 hours ago, bethy said:

I think that if writers/producers are going to adopt the slow-burn approach for the binge-watching crowd, they need to figure out how to give the week-to-week people something in the meantime. They shouldn't expect regular viewers to hold out for 22 hours of nothing between two characters because there will be some big pay-off in the finale or the last few episodes. For me, at least. I guess I need it to actually be a slow-burn - as in there is something there to keep me invested and intrigued - instead of just lighting what seems to me to be a cold fire at the end of the season. :)

This this this! And when I'm being given a whole lot of nothing for weeks on end, I'm going to check out of the show long before the end anyway.

But I really never got the impression that's what was happening or was ever the intention of these showrunners anyway.

Aeryn, I'm all over what you said here ...

Quote

Especially do not see a two-way-street relationship with Mary there. What, that she acknowledged he was there in her dream world? That was supposed to be it? Too little, too late IMO. Maybe not for Dean but certainly for me.

If Season 12 was supposed to show me Dean being more open and in turn being supported, they were seriously doing it wrong. Just like Sam always told him he was doing it wrong. 

Even when the character was in his supposed depressive phases in the show, I`ve never seen him as defeated and disengaged as I did in Season 12. He is usually a passionate, vibrant person - that may manifest themselves in darker ways when he isn`t emotionally well off but he normally isn`t somehow who sleepwalks through life. Until 12.B. Hell no if that was supposed to be character growth or progression. Get a defibrillator on him, stat. I want the alive version back.     

Two people simply appearing in the same show does not a relationship make. That's just two actors taking up space at any given time, and that's all I saw WRT "Mary and Dean" - or Mary and anyone - for most of the season. Mary was autonomous, presented as wanting it that way - apparently in Dabb's mind from the time she got married and dropped Dean into this world - and liking it that way. The only revelation I came away with from Mary's introduction back into the series world is that John maybe wasn't the worst parent after all, and that he would  have ended up a single dad one way or the other because, if she hadn't died, Mary would have simply bolted eventually anyway. I truly believe that the way this character is being written and played now.

As for Jensen's conversation with Berens regarding 12:22, I don't know Berens so I can't speak to his intentions in acting like he didn't know what Jensen was talking about, but my knee-jerk feeling at the time was that Jensen was putting way more thought into the script than the writer was. But whether or not that's true, what it did reveal is how confused and disappointed Jensen must have been the entire season with the direction of the Mary plot. Jensen wasn't alone in those feelings.

But, even all that I could put up with because the show made me not care at all about Mary, so I didn't and I could ignore her, if Dean wasn't so utterly deadened in a way we've never seen before. I'm seriously thinking Dean needs one of those pacemakers with a built-in defib now. I desperately don't want another season of Dean playing "the walking dead" - and not in the fun zombie-killing character way, but the literal lumbering around dead way. That's just not who Dean is.

Edited August 2, 2017 by PAForrest

[PAForrest]

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Most show, others than crime procedurals, work better with binge watching in my experience. But stuff I really dislike in episode upon episode won`t get better either way. In fact, Dean being benched for the actions so much would probably have been twice as annoying when watched without break.

The Mary storyline, well, like I said the "pay-off" was just more of the same that turned me off from the storyline in the first place. If it only HAD turned something around, made Mary less self-centered and just a taker, Dean standing up for himself for once without immediately offering forgiveness and being brushed aside. Let alone turning all his issues into a speech about Sam. While their childhood was intertwined, that is not what I`m looking for in exploration of Dean`s character. The character may not think in other terms than this but the writers could. 

I never had fond feelings for John but I find him to be the far more likeable character in hindsight. There was at least reciprocacy in the end with Dean. Mary started the Season not getting over herself and ended the Season still unable to see anything beyond herself. This was such a waste to me. 

Before Season 12 started Jensen said something about Mary having the potential to be just one more burden for Dean, someone who he feel responsible for and scared for etc. And well, she ended up being a burden. A character who destroyed the peaceful place Dean had left in his mind and left just an emotional mooch in its stead. Thanks for nothing, Mary.

Somehow I missed this post entirely when I posted my own response, but OMG you said everything I was feeling, but so much better than I did where it concerns the Mary plot device - I can't even call it a story, really, because it didn't play out that way. Just nodding along emphatically here.

And, seriously, if I was supposed to feel concerned or bad that Mary got stuck in the AU with Luci, that intention was lost on me. My only response was, "yay!"

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Two people simply appearing in the same show does not a relationship make. That's just two actors taking up space at any given time, and that's all I saw WRT "Mary and Dean" - or Mary and anyone - for most of the season.

But, doesn't that mean they did it right? I mean, if the payoff was supposed to be Dean having this cathartic moment at the end of the season, then Mary being exactly what Dean had built up in his head and them having a close loving relationship throughout the season makes no sense. They had to be bumping heads to get to the place at the end of the season where there is acceptance and forgiveness. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they knew exactly what it was Dean subconsciously was so angry at Mary about at the beginning of the season, but I do think they purposely set up Mary to be something different than Dean remembered her to be to set the stage for Dean to struggle with her all season. Mary had to come off that pedestal he'd put her on in order to have that cathartic moment at the end of the season, IMO. 

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, doesn't that mean they did it right? I mean, if the payoff was supposed to be Dean having this cathartic moment at the end of the season, then Mary being exactly what Dean had built up in his head and them having a close loving relationship throughout the season makes no sense. They had to be bumping heads to get to the place at the end of the season where there is acceptance and forgiveness.

Except there was nowhere near enough actual bumping of heads because they didn't interact for most of the season. So, like Aeryn, the scene doesn't work in and of itself for me because it feels like it comes out of the blue and Dean was essentially venting at a stranger instead of someone he was simmering at for most of the year. The thing I really got out of the scene was relief that Jensen was finally given something meaty to do after having been benched for the lion's share of the season, and Jensen is a phenomenal actor and it's awesome when he's given a chance to ... well, act. So, naturally, I just loved watching the level of emotion he brought to the scene, because this is Jensen's wheelhouse - as it is Dean's. Hearts on sleeves.

Of course, the bigger problem with the scene for me, and why it's not cathartic for me as a Dean fan, is that it has almost nothing at all to do with Dean. He spends the entire time watching Mary, in her fantasy, fussing over little Sam (where was Dean supposed to be, was he supposed to be?) while he goes on and on about how her actions hurt Sam and everything Sam went through, as if he himself wasn't affected by her death or sacrificed or went through anything at all horrible in his life, like he did, and instead spent the last 30+ years doing shots on a beach somewhere.

And, of course, when it's all done, Mary worries about what Sam will think, gives Sam a big ol' hug, and obviously Berens intended the entire experience to be about making sure things are great with Sam and Mary. And that's very nice, but what about Dean? As far as I can tell, Mary still knows nothing of what Dean went through his entire life, and is perfectly fine with not knowing anything about her eldest son. So no catharsis on that end.

But I'm glad Dabb's version of Mary has been knocked off her pedestal by Dean, because she doesn't deserve to be there. Don't know what happens after this, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Dean and Mary continue to behave as two people with mostly a superficial connection to each other. That too would be fine with me at this point because that's really how I see them anyway.

Edited August 2, 2017 by PAForrest

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Of course, the bigger problem with the scene for me, and why it's not cathartic for me as a Dean fan, is that it has almost nothing at all to do with Dean. He spends the entire time watching Mary, in her fantasy, fussing over little Sam (where was Dean supposed to be, was he supposed to be?)

Um, when was Mary fussing over little Sam? That was Dean at the kitchen table she was making lunch for and telling she was going to protect.

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Except there was nowhere near enough actual bumping of heads because they didn't interact for most of the season.

This was key, IMO. And Sam Smith was deeply disappointing to me in the role. I think her Mary was better in the small doses we got through out the series. No warmth at all, IMO; which I also felt was key. At least when she was just in Dean's mind she was loving and caring of him and, more importantly, it played out that way. IMO, RealMary was a writing and acting fail for the show because in trying to make her all badass(and supposedly more like Dean), both the writers and the actress totally lost the caring aspect(which is the important part of what would have made her more like Dean, IMO, and instead made her seem more like Sam, again IMO, in that she came off as very self-involved and self-righteous at times, especially in her interactions with Dean). Her "You're not a child anymore." response was what put the character in the toilet for me for good with the only saving grace there being that Dean did have the final word when he told her "I never was." But, of course it was Dean who had to become the understanding one at the end of that episode while, as Aeryn said, Mary just took it as her due recompense with no need for an apology of any kind from Mary to Dean, not in the writer's mind, anyway. No, much easier for them to just have Dean prevent her from apologizing so that we would know that it was Dean's thinking, and Dean's alone, that had to change and fully knowing that half of the fandom would also just run with it by explaining it away as simply "in character" for Dean. And that's why when someone claims there was so much "character growth" for Dean in S12 all I can think is that I have to agree to vehemently disagree with that sentiment-yet again.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Myrelle

[SueB]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Um, when was Mary fussing over little Sam? That was Dean at the kitchen table she was making lunch for and telling she was going to protect.

That's a pretty fundamental point to miss.  Perhaps @PAForrest was talking about how Mary stood at the crib and looked at Sam.  If they missed that was Dean at the table -- the scene makes no sense. 

[Pondlass1]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Sam Smith was deeply disappointing to me in the role.

 

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

No warmth at all,

Totally agree.  I'm not saying Sam Smith isn't a skilled actress, but she's a bit too good at the 'cold fish' expression.  Never a hint of warmth or compassion ever.  A little warmth from this character would have made the season so much better.  My heart ached for Dean in that scene.

[DittyDotDot]

38 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'm not saying Sam Smith isn't a skilled actress, but she's a bit too good at the 'cold fish' expression.  Never a hint of warmth or compassion ever.  A little warmth from this character would have made the season so much better.  My heart ached for Dean in that scene.

But, wasn't Mary supposed to be a cold fish? That was the story they were telling--Mary being distant and cold and pushing them away due to her own feelings of guilt. I'm not sure why it's the actresses fault here? I mean, I get it, you didn't want Mary to be a cold fish; you wanted her to be that nice, sweet Mary we saw in the past. But they clearly wrote Mary to be a cold fish--doesn't that mean that Samantha Smith did it right since see was too good at the cold fish expression? 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The only revelation I came away with from Mary's introduction back into the series world is that John maybe wasn't the worst parent after all

Likewise. Even when John was a complete ass, at least came across as passionate. The ice-queen impression of Mary was somehow worse to me.

Quote

But, doesn't that mean they did it right? I mean, if the payoff was supposed to be Dean having this cathartic moment at the end of the season, then Mary being exactly what Dean had built up in his head and them having a close loving relationship throughout the season makes no sense. 

I didn`t think it was really cathartic, maybe cathartis interruptus, seeing how it petered out into insta-forgiveness and the "back to Sam" mode from Mary. But the problem in that whole scenario is that Dean was supposed to have that resentment over how her death screwed up their lifes, well, Sam`s life since it focused all on that. And not over her acting like a self-centered asshole. 

I understand your point above about voicing such resentment coming out of left field if they had less contentious interactions over the Season but to me it still conflates the issue. If he resents her for dying, then she couldn`t have changed that one way or the other. If he resents her for being a collossal disappointment after coming back to life, well, that at least I can understand. But that wasn`t the point of the scene. 

Eh, in the end, neither works for me. The whole thing was just unappealing to watch. On another show I had two character arcs that really annoyed me while they were going on so it wasn`t fun or entertaining. However the pay-off was at least good. I`m not sure that made all the other previous annoying bits fully worth it but it`s certainly easier to go through them now, knowing it has a good end-point. The Mary stuff didn`t provide me that.  I still find her ongoing scenes as annoying as her final one with Dean and the ones in the Finale as well. Lucifer bores me to tears but if he wants to snap her neck, he`d get a cheer from me. 

 

Quote

And that's very nice, but what about Dean? As far as I can tell, Mary still knows nothing of what Dean went through his entire life, and is perfectly fine with not knowing anything about her eldest son. 

Yeah, that is my problem. The "big gesture" with Lucifer? Which looked stupid btw how he just stood there and appeared to get beaten by those stupid brass knuckles. I`m not looking for that stuff, I was looking for her taking off those blinders, acknowledge some shit and seriously grovel. Not the "oh, look at the big hero" redemption. Pfft. 

I mean she neither knows nor seems to have much of an interest in Sam either beyond that "can he forgive me" fretting but it was a tiny bit more than Dean. Ironically the scene was all about how he wanted to force her to see him but in the end IMO he was and is still invisible to her. She got her forgiveness without doing really anything for it so such an easy-earned thing (for her) is probably not making her think twice about it. Or him.

IMO Dean re-categorized Mary in his head from "person who would be different (if they were alive), who would take an interest and be supportive and would give instead of taking" to "person I better give and give and give and expect nothing in return if I want to have a relationship with them".

What bugs me is that he even treasures those relationships. When I`m sitting here, going "run away, that is not worth it, you`d be better off with nothing than this". He has shitty standards when it comes to this and Mary just lowered the bar even more.   

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If he resents her for being a collossal disappointment after coming back to life, well, that at least I can understand. But that wasn`t the point of the scene. 

Actually, I think that was the point of the scene--partially, anyway. I think it was both that she was a colossal disappointment and that he resented her for dying and abandoning him to become surrogate parent to Sam and surrogate spouse to John. 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Likewise. Even when John was a complete ass, at least came across as passionate. The ice-queen impression of Mary was somehow worse to me.

IA. And I think that it was an acting choice more than anything else as I don't think there was much else for her to go on within the actual writing. Same as with John, IMO. And often with Dean, for that matter, and over the years. And I further agree that JDM's John was like a furnace in the warmth dept. and compared to the lack that Sam Smith generated in that regard as her character.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But, wasn't Mary supposed to be a cold fish? That was the story they were telling--Mary being distant and cold and pushing them away due to her own feelings of guilt. 

I have to say those were kinda the nuances I was missing. The underlying anguish that you could see that would still kinda make it sympathetic, despite the coldness. But the only anguish I got from her was so freaking self-centered, it made her even more unsympathetic. 

What I got from the actress the most was "woohoo, I don`t have to play mom in a nightgown anymore, now I`m a badass".

Granted, the writing and probably direction didn`t help but for me everyone included went too far with the character.   

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What I got from the actress the most was "woohoo, I don`t have to play mom in a nightgown anymore, now I`m a badass".

That's funny because I at no point of the season saw Mary as a badass.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

That's funny because I at no point of the season saw Mary as a badass.

Action-wise, they pimped her pretty hard. She took down Dean easily in the Premiere, then she saved him. There was this scene with Ketch and the stop-watch and even he was impressed by her. She took out a vamp`s nest by herself whereas Cas stumbled as a hunter. 

I rolled my eyes at it but I`m forced to admit she was way more of a badass than Dean in Season 12.   

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Action-wise, they pimped her pretty hard. She took down Dean easily in the Premiere, then she saved him. There was this scene with Ketch and the stop-watch and even he was impressed by her. She took out a vamp`s nest by herself whereas Cas stumbled as a hunter. 

They totally pimped her as a badass whenever they could get away with it IMO too.  And Dean couldn't be shown as a badass also because that would have taken us out of and away from noticing hers, dontchaknow. Ugh. Such awful writing. Just Awful.

[bethy]

56 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Action-wise, they pimped her pretty hard. She took down Dean easily in the Premiere, then she saved him. There was this scene with Ketch and the stop-watch and even he was impressed by her. She took out a vamp`s nest by herself whereas Cas stumbled as a hunter. 

Yeah, I thought the whole point of a number of her scenes was to show that she was a good hunter and a "badass." (Personally, I'm really done with the use of "badass" by television people to indicate a woman is strong and capable because it seems to have everything to do with being able to physically overwhelming someone, when I personally believe that strong and capable works itself out in a lot of different ways. Harumph.) I'm not sure I actually bought her as some great hunter, but I felt like they spent a fair amount of time telling me she was. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's funny because I at no point of the season saw Mary as a badass.

I didn't think she was but IMO the show was intending to frame her that way. I think their PR even said as much.

[CluelessDrifter]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, wasn't Mary supposed to be a cold fish? That was the story they were telling--Mary being distant and cold and pushing them away due to her own feelings of guilt. I'm not sure why it's the actresses fault here? I mean, I get it, you didn't want Mary to be a cold fish; you wanted her to be that nice, sweet Mary we saw in the past. But they clearly wrote Mary to be a cold fish--doesn't that mean that Samantha Smith did it right since see was too good at the cold fish expression? 

I think the point is that it would have been good to see some of this guilt, and it's source.  Why did she feel guilty?  Because she died?  Because her sons became hunters?  She didn't stick around to see what their lives were really like and was going off of John's journal and her own memories on what hunters are.  She still has no idea that John sold his soul for Dean and then Dean did it for Sam.  She doesn't know that Dean was in Hell.  She doesn't know anything about their lives for the last 12 years, because John didn't have his journal the last year he was alive (season 1).  That is the problem.  I didn't need to see her get a recap of the previous 12 seasons, but seeing Mary come to realizations about the big things would have been good, and I understand that the Mary we've seen in previous seasons was deconstructed, so we could see the real woman, but if you're going to do that, you have to rebuild the real woman, not just give her superficial characteristics, and if you're trying to mirror her off of Dean, then it has to be in more ways than liking bacon.  At least in the scene in 12.22, we saw Mary as we remembered her, which tells me she's still in there somewhere, and that maybe Dean's memories of her weren't so off base, but more of their journey should have been shown before episode 22. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I think the point is that it would have been good to see some of this guilt, and it's source.  Why did she feel guilty, because she died?  Because her sons became hunters?  She didn't stick around to see what their lives were really like and was going off of John's journal and her own memories on what hunters are.  She still has no idea that John sold his soul for Dean and then Dean did it for Sam.  She doesn't know that Dean was in Hell.  She doesn't know anything about their lives for the last 12 years, because John didn't have his journal the last year he was alive (season 1).  That is the problem.  I didn't need to see her get a recap of the previous 12 seasons, but seeing Mary come to realizations about the big things would have been good, and I understand that the Mary we've seen in previous seasons was deconstructed, so we could see the real woman, but if you're going to do that, you have to rebuild the real woman, not just give her superficial characteristics, and if you're trying to mirror her off of Dean, then it has to be in more ways than liking bacon.  At least in the scene in 12.22, we saw Mary as we remembered her, which tells me she's still in there somewhere, and that maybe Dean's memories of her weren't so off base, but more of their journey should have been shown before episode 22. 

I still think they missed a golden opportunity to show Mary's return journey to Lawrence.  I always said I prefer quality over quantity.   So I wouldn't have minded in the episode was Sam and Dean light. (With JA and JP's limited schedule, it could have freed up some time). 

Or show her reading the journal and seeing a flashback ep to early days after Mary died.  They could have cast young Dean and Sam. 

[DittyDotDot]

Moving Mary stuff to the Mary thread...

[PAForrest]

20 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Um, when was Mary fussing over little Sam? That was Dean at the kitchen table she was making lunch for and telling she was going to protect.

I keep thinking about the scene in the living room with the crib, where the bulk of Dean's speech took place. I've completely forgotten the lunch scene, so I apologize - that's why I had a question mark in paranthesis because I've totally blanked on it, weirdly enough. But I guess that's how much of an impression it didn't make on me. What stands out to me whenever I think back on the scene and Dean's speech is the two of them standing over Sam's crib.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I keep thinking about the scene in the living room with the crib, where the bulk of Dean's speech took place. I've completely forgotten the lunch scene, so I apologize - that's why I had a question mark in paranthesis because I've totally blanked on it, weirdly enough. But I guess that's how much of an impression it didn't make on me. What stands out to me whenever I think back on the scene and Dean's speech is the two of them standing over Sam's crib.

I think what caused Dean's breakthrough was seeing her lie to little "him".  That's what caused the "I hate you." revelation. 

[ILoveReading]

Me and a friend of mine were talking about The Purge and how much we loved Jensen's acting in that ep.   I know that Jensen gets a lot of praise for the mirror scene, the Mary scene, The End, his hell confession, What is and What Should Never be.  It got me thinking about other performances where Jensen was so good but aren't mentioned a lot.  I was curious as to what lesser mentioned scene's/episodes are in others top five. 

I'm not defining exactly what "less talked about scenes, so if you think The End isn't talked about enough, feel free to list. 

Mine, in random order-

Houses of the Holy- Dean talking about why he didn't believe in God.  I thought Jensen delivered that speech perfectly.  There was a mixture of sadness and a hint of bitterness in Deans' tone.  Jensen just has this ability to add so many layers and tones to his speeches.

Adventures in Babysitting- After Frank tells Dean to fake smile and the scene were Jensen is practicing smiling at the end.  Never before have I ever seen such a sad smile.  Never once did Dean's eyes light up.  Jensen's ability to turn his eyes on and off is amazing.  So much expression without saying a word.  It was the scene  that made me want an episode where Dean loses the ability to speak. 

Crossroad Blues- When Dean confronted the demon and she tempted him.  You could tell part of him wanted to accept the deal.  Jensen is such a master a displaying conflicting emotions.

Dead in the Water- Where Dean opens up to Lucas.   Its the first time we really see Dean wear his heart on his sleeve. 

The Purge- The ep itself was 'meh and I disliked the end but I thought it was a master class in what Jensen talked about in finding what's not on the page.  Throughout the whole episode you can just feel Dean's wariness and exhaustion.  He was trying so hard to pretend he was okay but not quite managing it.  The underlying sense of depression.   The way his control slipped during the interview.  The way the exhaustion seemed to double after he was roofied. He was barely in control of himself that whole ep.  Good acting can improve a bad script and I thought Jensen took this to the next level.  

Edited August 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[bethy]

I don't know if this scene gets mentioned a lot in terms of Jensen's acting, but it was this little exchange that intrigued me about the show.

This was character defining for me. We'd just seen the good-looking guy be cocky and kind of sleezy with Sam and Jessica, then we get this glimpse of vulnerability and need. I thought he did a very nice job of showing there was more to Dean than what we'd seen so far. 

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, bethy said:

I don't know if this scene gets mentioned a lot in terms of Jensen's acting, but it was this little exchange that intrigued me about the show.

This was character defining for me. We'd just seen the good-looking guy be cocky and kind of sleezy with Sam and Jessica, then we get this glimpse of vulnerability and need. I thought he did a very nice job of showing there was more to Dean than what we'd seen so far. 

Yes!  I agree.  As part of the pilot, between that scene and his emotional outburst at Sam talking about "Mom is gone." we get a clear indication that Dean is deeper than the guy who openly leers at Jess.  

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Yes!  I agree.  As part of the pilot, between that scene and his emotional outburst at Sam talking about "Mom is gone." we get a clear indication that Dean is deeper than the guy who openly leers at Jess.

My take on the leering at Jess is that he did it deliberately to make either Sam or Jess or both uncomfortable enough to send her from the room so he could talk to Sam, when that didn't work he went to plan B. Granted I haven't watched it in a while but it was my initial impression which was only supported with later re watches. I don't know why me thinking it was calculated on his part makes it better for me than if he was just a leering perv, lol.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Me and a friend of mine were talking about The Purge and how much we loved Jensen's acting in that ep.   I know that Jensen gets a lot of praise for the mirror scene, the Mary scene, The End, his hell confession, What is and What Should Never be.  It got me thinking about other performances where Jensen was so good but aren't mentioned a lot.  I was curious as to what lesser mentioned scene's/episodes are in others top five. 

I'm not defining exactly what "less talked about scenes, so if you think The End isn't talked about enough, feel free to list. 

Mine, in random order-

Houses of the Holy- Dean talking about why he didn't believe in God.  I thought Jensen delivered that speech perfectly.  There was a mixture of sadness and a hint of bitterness in Deans' tone.  Jensen just has this ability to add so many layers and tones to his speeches.

Adventures in Babysitting- After Frank tells Dean to fake smile and the scene were Jensen is practicing smiling at the end.  Never before have I ever seen such a sad smile.  Never once did Dean's eyes light up.  Jensen's ability to turn his eyes on and off is amazing.  So much expression without saying a word.  It was the scene  that made me want an episode where Dean loses the ability to speak. 

Crossroad Blues- When Dean confronted the demon and she tempted him.  You could tell part of him wanted to accept the deal.  Jensen is such a master a displaying conflicting emotions.

Dead in the Water- Where Dean opens up to Lucas.   Its the first time we really see Dean wear his heart on his sleeve. 

The Purge- The ep itself was 'meh and I disliked the end but I thought it was a master class in what Jensen talked about in finding what's not on the page.  Throughout the whole episode you can just feel Dean's wariness and exhaustion.  He was trying so hard to pretend he was okay but not quite managing it.  The underlying sense of depression.   The way his control slipped during the interview.  The way the exhaustion seemed to double after he was roofied. He was barely in control of himself that whole ep.  Good acting can improve a bad script and I thought Jensen took this to the next level.  

Dream a Little Dream of Me when he's confronting himself in his head.

Most of Devil's Trap, but especially the Meg exorcism scene and when he realizes that his Dad isn't his Dad in the cabin.

ETA: Skin anytime shifter!Dean is interacting with Sam, because we see him learning how to play Dean and hitting the right notes, but not being quite right.

I could keep going, but I'd be here all day.  :)

Edited August 3, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Yes!  I agree.  As part of the pilot, between that scene and his emotional outburst at Sam talking about "Mom is gone." we get a clear indication that Dean is deeper than the guy who openly leers at Jess.  

Except he never openly leers at Jess.  His eyes never leave her eyes, which is why I'm inclined to agree with @trxr4kids that it was a ploy to put Sam and Jess off balance.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Except he never openly leers at Jess.  His eyes never leave her eyes, which is why I'm inclined to agree with @trxr4kids that it was a ploy to put Sam and Jess off balance.

Actually, he does say "I love the Smurfs," referring to her t-shirt, so his eyes did wander southward :)  

But as others have pointed out, they tended to make Dean a leering jerk in the early years; though, to the writers' credit, they did have Dean stop for the most part as he got older (and more depressed).  Personally, I'm always pissed when it shows up again (some writers tend to bring it back as a comic trope when it's wholly inappropriate and OOC to who he is now.)  

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, he does say "I love the Smurfs," referring to her t-shirt, so his eyes did wander southward :)  

But as others have pointed out, they tended to make Dean a leering jerk in the early years; though, to the writers' credit, they did have Dean stop for the most part as he got older (and more depressed).  Personally, I'm always pissed when it shows up again (some writers tend to bring it back as a comic trope when it's wholly inappropriate and OOC to who he is now.)  

Well, I did say openly.  :)

She was a girl he wasn't expecting, standing there in her underwear, but the second Sam said Jess was his girlfriend, it was all eyes on eyes, and after Jess suggests putting some clothes on, Dean says what might be the most awkward thing he could say in an already awkward situation, "I wouldn't dream of it.  Seriously," before turning away from her and saying it was nice to meet her, but that he had some business to discuss with his brother, like he expected her to go after what he'd said.  Maybe it's Jensen's acting choices vs. what's in the script, or it's an attempt to show that Dean really doesn't know how to socialize appropriately in a scene where we're first introduced to him as an adult, but it doesn't come off as openly leering to me.

 I actually think that the way Dean has been written when it comes to women has changed quite a bit.  He definitely used to hit on them, but it came off as more respectful, maybe a little cheesy, but not cringeworthy, and if he looked, it was less obvious, like having a look after he opened a door for a woman or when she walked past him behind the counter at a diner or something like that.  Then I think in season 10, when he was trying to pretend like he was normal and okay with the MoC, he started going way over the top on it when they were at that college campus (Halt & Catch Fire?), and it's stuck.  What has also stuck from that episode is the way he eats.  In Season 10, I thought it was another example of how he was trying to fake feeling okay it until he believed he was okay, but now he's consistently got food, like blueberry pie, hanging out of his mouth.  Both of those are reasons why I thought Dean wasn't dealing well with Mary being around in season 12, because it seemed worse in S12 than in S11, but it wasn't really addressed outside of Sam being embarrassed by him, which tells me it was played for laughs, so now I'm not sure.  Another thing that's changed with the way that Dean is portrayed with women is how women treat him.  There's much more 'drop dead' and 'dad bod' comments than there ever used to be.  

Edited August 3, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Yes!  I agree.  As part of the pilot, between that scene and his emotional outburst at Sam talking about "Mom is gone." we get a clear indication that Dean is deeper than the guy who openly leers at Jess.  

Even more than those moments what sold me on Dean not being quite what he presented at first was the scene with the sheriff when he showed him John's journal. The mask, the bravado fell off quickly. That was a wonderful scene where internally Dean changed. Kind of like the scene in On the Head of a Pin and he learned he had started the apocalypse. It wasn't just a facial tick that changed. HE changed. Brilliant IMO

[catrox14]

Here's another fun moment for me with Dean defying my expectations. Phantom Traveler all of it really. He's so damn proud of himself for his EMF invention. I was surprised by how cute, eager he was, with being all ' I MADE THIS!' and then his hurt face when Sam just poops all over it. Dean looks so hurt and confused as to why, with a little bit of "Jeez, why are you being such a dick, Sam'

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by catrox14

[bethy]

And I think he was totally expecting Sam to be impressed by what he'd done, too. Poor baby.

[Casseiopeia]

Nobody does internal monologuing like Jensen.

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Me and a friend of mine were talking about The Purge and how much we loved Jensen's acting in that ep.   I know that Jensen gets a lot of praise for the mirror scene, the Mary scene, The End, his hell confession, What is and What Should Never be.  It got me thinking about other performances where Jensen was so good but aren't mentioned a lot.  I was curious as to what lesser mentioned scene's/episodes are in others top five. 

I'm not defining exactly what "less talked about scenes, so if you think The End isn't talked about enough, feel free to list. 

Mine, in random order-

Houses of the Holy- Dean talking about why he didn't believe in God.  I thought Jensen delivered that speech perfectly.  There was a mixture of sadness and a hint of bitterness in Deans' tone.  Jensen just has this ability to add so many layers and tones to his speeches.

Adventures in Babysitting- After Frank tells Dean to fake smile and the scene were Jensen is practicing smiling at the end.  Never before have I ever seen such a sad smile.  Never once did Dean's eyes light up.  Jensen's ability to turn his eyes on and off is amazing.  So much expression without saying a word.  It was the scene  that made me want an episode where Dean loses the ability to speak. 

Crossroad Blues- When Dean confronted the demon and she tempted him.  You could tell part of him wanted to accept the deal.  Jensen is such a master a displaying conflicting emotions.

Dead in the Water- Where Dean opens up to Lucas.   Its the first time we really see Dean wear his heart on his sleeve. 

The Purge- The ep itself was 'meh and I disliked the end but I thought it was a master class in what Jensen talked about in finding what's not on the page.  Throughout the whole episode you can just feel Dean's wariness and exhaustion.  He was trying so hard to pretend he was okay but not quite managing it.  The underlying sense of depression.   The way his control slipped during the interview.  The way the exhaustion seemed to double after he was roofied. He was barely in control of himself that whole ep.  Good acting can improve a bad script and I thought Jensen took this to the next level.  

What always gets me is All Hell Breaks Loose 2 in the immediate aftermath of Sam's death. Jensen is amazing at showing Dean's grief, anger and desperation in the bedside scene.

[catrox14]

Oh here's one. 

Sin City: I love his entire scene with Casey. He's trying to pretend he's fine but IMO underneath the bravado is an undercurrent of terror that's palpable.

[DeeDee79]

I just thought of another one: the end of Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things. After he's been closed off for the duration of the case and his confession that he's been feeling off kilter because there was something unnatural about his swift recovery and John's sudden death. That was a really good scene.

[catrox14]

Wishful Thinking: The end when he confesses to Sam he remembers Hell. I like that moment even more than Heaven and Hell. I love how Jensen underplayed that on his face but IMO it was in his hand movements.

Long Distance Call: Terrible episode in general but I love Dean's sad slow descent into believing that John was calling him. The hotel argument with Sam (check out the scene rehearsal which I thought was better than the actual scene*). And here when Dean admits to Sam how scared he really is.  I think that's the first time, I remember Dean actually uttering the words. "I'm  scared" and the look in his eye was NOPE... not okay and his voice cracking.. NOPE not okay

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Me and a friend of mine were talking about The Purge and how much we loved Jensen's acting in that ep.   I know that Jensen gets a lot of praise for the mirror scene, the Mary scene, The End, his hell confession, What is and What Should Never be.  It got me thinking about other performances where Jensen was so good but aren't mentioned a lot.  I was curious as to what lesser mentioned scene's/episodes are in others top five. 

I doubt that I can keep it to only five but these are just off the top of my head right now

The scene in Roadkill when he's sitting in the chair waiting for Farmer Roadkill to show up. He was so like a wolf waiting patiently for it's prey. And it made me think that he'd probably seen John do the very same thing time after time when he was first learning to hunt. I just loved that he evoked all of that in me while basically just sitting there in that chair, waiting.

Every scene that he was a part of in Dead in the Water and Faith and Something Wicked and Devil's Trap and IMToD and Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things("Come with us, Neil. Really.... Be careful. Stay Cool. And whatever you do-Don't. Make her mad."-I love that entire interaction and "It's your grief counselors, Neil. We're here to hug.")

When he can't keep from telling the truth in Simon Says. 

How he admires the woman in the bar who craves attention in You Can't Handle the Truth. That one is Gold.

When he spins that tale of how he killed April in I'm No Angel to cover his tracks and he tells Cas and Sam that he lied to her-Cas: "You lied." Dean: "I do that." Heh.

Bloodlust-The beheading of the vamp. That one is Iconic to me. It is a picture perfect portrayal of a young man who has become inured to the violence that he's encountered on an almost daily basis, seemingly forever. Horrifically Beautiful. Definitely in my top 5.

Every single scene that he was a part of in What Is and What Should Never Be. Every one. When he's kissing Carmen and just wanting her on that couch...he was so real there. And I love when he comes out of that jet black background after killing the djinn and finds the girl. His face was mesmerizing. His eyes were huge. Anime Eyes as they are described now.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

When he can't keep from telling the truth in Simon Says. 

I LOVE that scene. What a fantastic mix of comedy, and freaking out. I don't know how he did that.

[ILoveReading]

There is also his confession in Yellow Fever, after his control slipped.  Also a perfect mix of comedy and freaking out.

I forgot about that scene in Simon Said.  You can also see and hear a forced tone, like he really is trying to stop himself.

Edited August 4, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

check out the scene rehearsal which I thought was better than the actual scene*

You really can appreciate their acting talent when you realize there's a room full of people and cameras just inches away while they're doing the scene.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

You really can appreciate their acting talent when you realize there's a room full of people and cameras just inches away while they're doing the scene.

I don't even have to see Dean's face to hear in his voice how upset he is. How he's becoming frantic essentially. It's interesting to compare it to the scene that aired where Jensen dialed back on Dean's anger.

[ILoveReading]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

(check out the scene rehearsal which I thought was better than the actual scene*)

I have to agree here.  I wish they went with this version.