Arrow Villains: They Failed This City

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

Ra's had met Sara before in LoT.  I get the feeling he didn't really approve of her relationship with his daughter because he felt on some level Sara was using Nyssa.  That said, Sara made Nyssa happy.  Ra's loved his daughter and wanted her to be happy as much as possible.  Still, trade or not, as somebody, possibly you, pointed out, Ra's wore the ring.  The only reason the League helped deal with the Mirakurites was because Ra's made it so.  Ultimately Ra's was a person of a much older time who saw himself stuck in a cage of ancient traditions and didn't see the way out.  I also got the feeling that Ra's knew his time was limited.  That Malcolm Merlyn or Damien Darkh would kill him or the Lazurus Pit would drive him completely insane.  So, he decided to give the League over to Oliver, who he felt might have new solutions to old problems.  Figure he decided either that would happen in the "traditional" way or because he took actions that forced Oliver to kill him in duel and take the ring that way.  I think he actually preferred option two.
 

 

Ra's didn't approve of Nyssa's relationship with Sara because he didn't want his daughter to A) be gay and  B)  feel love, something he called a weakness.   And I'm quite certain that Ra's was not capable of love by the time we met him.  Hell, at least by the time Nyssa's mother caught his eye.  I'm sure Talia would agree.  He was tough capable of using and manipulating his daughters and apparently made promises he never intended to keep to both of them.  (Even while both knew him to be a monster) Talia left when she figured out they were lies and Nyssa found out they were lies when Ra's forced her to be a brood mare or die. 

But before that, she was the Heir to the Demon.  She had power.  She had the authority to free Sara from her oath to the LoA.  I'm quite certain she had the authority to take a handful of soldiers to Star City to stop another unapproved attack.  As long as she wasn't challenging Ra's' authority, she didn't need his permission.  

And while Ra's did see himself as a keep of ancient rules and traditions, I don't believe he felt trapped by them, but empowered.  

As for giving the LoA over to Oliver and any new ideas, I think we saw that in reality, he never intended to relinquish his power.  He brought in Oliver to be a puppet until Oliver and Nyssa begat him a male heir, someone he could rear and shape to ensure his immortality .    

I will concede that Ra's respected that his chosen heir defeated him in combat, even if he hadn't intended to ever hand over his power.  

Of course, we can always agree to disagree.  :)

Quote

No, I really don't think so.  Look back through that post.  I think it's hilarious that ultimately Chase's vengeance quest turned out to be nothing more than extreme therapy for Oliver (which is the only kind of therapy with a chance of working on him).

Chase is the one that got Dig captured that put him directly at risk of death.  

And as @Statsgirl was pointing out, Felicity actually is the one that got the proof that freed Diggle and while Chase had given her the clue that it existed, had Helix not reached out and given Felicity Pandora, a move that Chase did not account for, all Chase would have done was taunted them with hope before yanking it away.  Felicity had resources that Chase couldn't account for, in this case her reputation and a fan that reached out.  

And I have no worries over if Team Arrow could have handled Church making claims that the Mayor was the Green Arrow.  Church had no credibility and Oliver had been cleared numerous times.  I'm sure they would have handled that no problem.  

Talia took advantage of Chase coming to her to get revenge on Oliver, but we have no evidence that she was actively seeking it.  From what we know, she didn't help Chase because she loved her father, but out of obligation.  Sure, Talia might have proved to be a threat, but Team Arrow faces many threats.  I feel it's jumping the gun to assume that they would have absolutely failed when facing her.  I mean, Nyssa mopped the floor with her.  Oliver did the same with her minions.  Not sure she would have proved as big a threat as supposed.

As for Felicity and Billy, she barely think of him as her boyfriend.  I think she was safe from walking down the aisle with him.  

I do think that Chase's mental torture forced Oliver to look deep inside himself but the answers Oliver got were all wrong.  It took the people that really knew him to get him to the truth.  And even without Chase's torture, he was already on that soul searching path when Felicity explained what she needed from him in the flashback.  Perhaps Chase sped up the process or maybe Oliver and Felicity would have ended up having the same arguments in 519 and 520 since Felicity was involved with Helix.  They already had their eye on her and wanted her for her Argus connections. It's likely they would have approached her and she would have already been in a head space from Hanvenrock that she'd be tempted to use their mean justify the ends approach for something.  So Chase appears to have done Oliver a favor but take him out of the equation and the results very well could be the same.  

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

And as @Statsgirl was pointing out, Felicity actually is the one that got the proof that freed Diggle and while Chase had given her the clue that it existed, had Helix not reached out and given Felicity Pandora, a move that Chase did not account for, all Chase would have done was taunted them with hope before yanking it away.  Felicity had resources that Chase couldn't account for, in this case her reputation and a fan that reached out. 

Thank you.  I don't know what happened to my wifi connection.

I also wanted to say that since Felicity still couldn't call Billy her boyfriend after dating him for six months, it's unlikely she would have married him. Without Chase, Talia wouldn' have know that Oliver killed her father.

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

  Ultimately Ra's was a person of a much older time who saw himself stuck in a cage of ancient traditions and didn't see the way out.  I also got the feeling that Ra's knew his time was limited.  That Malcolm Merlyn or Damien Darkh would kill him or the Lazurus Pit would drive him completely insane.  So, he decided to give the League over to Oliver, who he felt might have new solutions to old problems.

But he wasn't willing to let Oliver try any new solutions.  He forced him to marry Nyssa, which neither of them wanted and which wasn't really necessary at the time.  He also forced Oliver to kill the inhabitants of Star City, another thing that could have been changed if he'd wanted change.

Ultimately I think it's as @BkWurm1 says, that for Ra's Oliver was the prize stallion who combined with Nyssa's brood mare would give Ra's the grandson he could mold in his own image.

The biggest difference I see with Ra's from the other Big Bads is that he was sane, or at least as sane as the Lazarus Pit would let him be.

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I also wanted to say that since Felicity still couldn't call Billy her boyfriend after dating him for six months, it's unlikely she would have married him. Without Chase, Talia wouldn' have know that Oliver killed her father.

Didn't Oliver's final battle with Ra's happen in public in front of the Star City police?  I can't imagine the news wouldn't have gotten back to her at some point.  And Felicity wasn't dating Billy for all that long, was she?  I take your point that Chase wasn't a complete blessing, but I compare Oliver's situation here to those of past seasons.

Season One saw the death of his best friend, Tommy.

Season Two had his mother murdered.

Season Three had the (admittedly temporary) death of Sara Lance and at the end Oliver hung up the Arrow suit seemingly for good for a blissful life with Felicity.

Season Four had Felicity suffer a permanent (if correctable) injury and break up with Oliver as well as the death of Laurel Lance (yes, many here would call that a good thing, but it was at least theoretically painful for Oliver and Quentin).  Also, a small town got nuked, which sucked for them.

Season Five has Oliver riding high as mayor, back with Felicity, regaining powerful friends and emotionally healthier than he's ever been.  Yes, theoretically everyone he loves has been blown to bits and he's left to raise his dead-eyed, silent psycho child, but we all know that pretty much everyone of any importance has survived.

[statsgirl]

Oh, I agree, Oliver is in a much better place than he was at the end of any season other other s3.  He's progressing on his Hero's Journey.  We still don't know who has died on the island though.  If it's Samantha, I would personally take that as a major blow.  To me, because we'd be stuck with William.

5 hours ago, johntfs said:

Didn't Oliver's final battle with Ra's happen in public in front of the Star City police?  I can't imagine the news wouldn't have gotten back to her at some point.  And Felicity wasn't dating Billy for all that long, was she?  I take your point that Chase wasn't a complete blessing, but I compare Oliver's situation here to those of past seasons.

Felicity had given Billy the key to her apartment by the beginning of October.  That's a pretty big thing for someone like Felicity so  she'd been dating him a minimum of three months and probably more since the flashback to the bunker was supposed to have happened in June. Most people are ready to call guys their boyfriend long before they give him the key to their home.

The Talia question is interesting.  She did say that Chase told her that Oliver had killed her father.  Would she have found out otherwise?  Possibly.  Even though the battle was public, it was never stated that the combatants were Oliver Queen and Ra's al Ghul.  But the League members who were in Star City would have known so for me it depends on whether Talia is still close to any of them.

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

But the League members who were in Star City would have known so for me it depends on whether Talia is still close to any of them.

Even if she wasn't BFFs, you'd think basic safety/self-preservation would cause her to keep herself informed on happenings in and around the LoA.  Hell, if nothing else, you'd think some LoA members, after being released because Nyssa shut down the LoA, would have gone to Ra's al Ghul's other daughter to see if she was interested in taking up the family business.

That said, it brings up another peeve I have about Chase - his omniscience.  Which has never been adequately explained.  At least with the other villains there's reasons for their capabilities.  Malcolm Merlyn was former LoA and extremely wealthy.  He was also acquainted with the Queens for years.

Slade Wilson knew Oliver from the island, was a really good soldier (even when high on Mirakuru) and had also gotten rich.

Ra's al Ghul was head of the LoA and had been for years/decades/centuries.  He learned about Oliver from Maseo (and possibly Sara) initially and was certainly briefed on what happened with the Mirakuru in Star City.  It's likely that one reason Ra's considered Oliver such a good candidate to lead the LoA was that he'd already lead them in battle against a force unlike any most of them had ever encountered.  Ra's would certainly have checked up on Oliver and kept tabs on him after that.

Damien Darke was basically a less honorable, more evil, more sadistic Ra's al Ghul.  He also had a powerful organization and also magical powers.  You don't need to be the Head of the Demon when you can actually conjure up a real demon.

But Chase?  How the hell does this guy do what he does?  Talia al Ghul was Ra's oldest surviving child.  A likely could of dips in the Lazurus pool kept her look  couple of decades younger than her mid-60s, but she still had tremendous training and life experience.  So how does he kno more about her father's death than she does?

[statsgirl]

Chase was driven.  His only purpose in life was to make Oliver pay for killing his father and he was crazy enough to suborn everything to that, including his marriage.  That trumps Merlyn, Ra's and all his minions and Damian Darhk who thought it would be easy to dispose of the Green Arrow.

[johntfs]

On 5/30/2017 at 9:29 PM, statsgirl said:

Chase was driven.  His only purpose in life was to make Oliver pay for killing his father and he was crazy enough to suborn everything to that, including his marriage.  That trumps Merlyn, Ra's and all his minions and Damian Darhk who thought it would be easy to dispose of the Green Arrow.

That still doesn't get me there.  I might be driven to fly like Superman but I'm not leaping tall buildings in a single bound any time soon no matter how much I really, really want too.  I get it.  Adrian Chase was happy to burn down his whole life to take revenge on his father's killer.  So, yeah, he was driven.  He really, really most sincerely wanted to see justice/revenge done.  That acknowledged, we got a much better explanation of how Laurel Lance went from (somewhat mediocre) attorney to super-hero (and it was still fairly unbelievable) than we ever got about how this one guy managed learn pretty much everything about pretty much everyone even tangentially involved in Oliver Queen's life.

Edited June 1, 2017 by johntfs

[quarks]

8 hours ago, johntfs said:

That still doesn't get me there.  I might be driven to fly like Superman but I'm not leaping tall buildings in a single bound any time soon no matter how much I really, really want too.  I get it.  Adrian Chase was happy to burn down his whole life to take revenge on his father's killer.  So, yeah, he was driven.  He really, really most sincerely wanted to see justice/revenge done.  That acknowledged, we got a much better explanation of how Laurel Lance went from (somewhat mediocre) attorney to super-hero (and it was still fairly unbelievable) than we ever got about how this one guy managed learn pretty much everything about pretty much everyone even tangentially involved in Oliver Queen's life.

This.

I had no problems with Adrian wanting to kill Oliver, or his quest to destroy Oliver. The setup for that was there. What was not there was the ability to get this much knowledge about Oliver's life in just five years, plus training to become Oliver's equal, plus managing to rig the entire island with still more explosives - an island that ARGUS was apparently visiting regularly, all while working as a lawyer/DA and spending time with a wife who apparently knew nothing about any of this. Granted that Arrow has set up that the Star City DA's have a habit of vanishing for long periods of time and/or not doing their jobs in between getting kidnapped and/or killed, so I expect his office and the city had very low expectations of just how much productivity they'd get from him, but still. I don't think it helped that Arrow clarified that Slade, who already had the superstrength and the military training, needed five years to return for his revenge and needed the help of someone else looking for revenge, or that Malcolm spent years with the League of Assassins.  I'm willing to accept that since season 2, it's been increasingly easy to become a superhero/supervillain in the Arrowverse. I'm just questioning that extent of knowledge. 

[BkWurm1]

Most of Chase's knowledge came from Talia or Evelyn's reports so Chase knowing most of the details of his life doesn't bother me.  Talia had her minions to compile super comprehensive report and Evelyn was right there at the end.  But that doesn't really explain how Chase could predict how Oliver thought.  Once he was in Oliver's circle, sure, he'd learn about him as a man, but unless he's been spying on him for years, watching and learning, (inbetween law classes, fight training and dating his wife) I don't see how he could come to know him so perfectly as to predict his every move.  

Unless that was Chase's gift?  Maybe he as always like that, able to expertly read people quickly?  Maybe he was naturally a better fighter, so took less time to train?   

[statsgirl]

Maybe Chase was a profiler before he went for his law degree to take down Oliver. Or maybe he was a lawyer already and took up profiling after Oliver killed his father.  If Oliver had not changed through Diggle and Felicity and accepted a team, a very recent change, Chase would have got it right.  Oliver's instincts are always to send away those he cares about and go it alone.

He could have got married only after Talia had trained him, which would account for his wife not knowing about his time in the mountains.

Since Chase inherited his father's money, Justin not having had time to disinherit him if that was even true, I imagine he would have lots of money to pay Talia and her acolytes to plant the mines on Lian Yu.

[SmallScreenDiva]

9 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

It's a bit different from how the writers interpret things to how they come across on screen. Their reality does not match our own. But they weren't forced to bring in Black Siren into 5x10, they wanted to in order to tell that story, just so happens that The Flash already gave them the ammo they needed the year before.

We really don't know what the writers have been forced or not forced to do. But the way KC was used as LL and BS in S5 tells me a lot about what the writers didn't want to do. I mean, they basically wasted her appearances on a flashback that had more to do with setting up her replacement (episode 1), barely 30-seconds in 509 to set up 510, where they made the character mock her Earth-1 alter ego and then got punched in the face by the heroine and then 522 and 523 where she was essentially a minion and got knocked out cold by the father of her alter-ego. Nothing in those appearances screams to me "We love her so much we want her back." The opposite, actually.

The story they wanted to tell in 5x10 was not about BS, it was all about Oliver, and on a lesser level about Felicity, Oliver fighting very hard to believe that people who do evil things can still be saved. It's not even about Laurel or her memory, it was about him. For Felicity is was the kickoff to her "dark" arc where she began taking a lot of dangerous chances just to capture Chase.

[LeighAn]

I count 5x10 as one of my favourites for the season not because of Nlack Siren but because it was basically an Olicity focused episode with Black Siren being used as a prop for some really crucial character and relationship building scenes between Oliver and Felicity. 

 

Black Siren was treated like a prop all season that if I were a fan of the character and the actress I wouldn't have high hopes for her going into the next. But I guess it's wait and see.

[Lady Calypso]

On 6/25/2017 at 6:55 PM, LeighAn said:

Black Siren was treated like a prop all season that if I were a fan of the character and the actress I wouldn't have high hopes for her going into the next. But I guess it's wait and see.

People seem to have high hopes that, with KC back as a series regular, that Black Siren will either go on this redemption arc that'll end with her joining the team, or she'll just get as much focus as the heroes do. However, all I see is BS getting about the same amount of screen time and she'll probably miss episodes here and there. I also don't see her joining the team unless it was for Quentin (the only one she's shown any positive feelings for...if they weren't faked). And even then, BS will only do things that benefit herself, so she could be easily swayed either way. She's not really her own character and the little background they gave her, it's hard to tell if it's entirely truthful or if she was just trying to manipulate Oliver and Quentin. 

I'd say I feel confident that BS won't become a member of Team Arrow at all, even in a recurring, once in a while capacity, but my faith in the showrunners is pretty slim at this point, especially if the network is pushing for KC to get a more substantial role (which I ultimately think has been the major roadblock in letting KC go for good). I just don't see the show really committing to BS being a major villain. I just see them flip flopping between keeping her evil to play to KC's acting strengths and giving her emotional beats with the other characters because they're attempting to make her an anti-hero like Malcolm, even though Malcolm wasn't really an anti-hero to begin with. 

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

People seem to have high hopes that, with KC back as a series regular, that Black Siren will either go on this redemption arc that'll end with her joining the team

To me, people who want Black Siren to be "redeemed" need to ask themselves a question, "Does Black Siren seem like someone moving toward suicide?"  If the answer to that question is "no" my follow up is "Then why would you think she would ever be redeemed?"

For me, the best example of redemption was that of the character of Spike in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer series.  Toward the end of Season 6 he attempt to rape Buffy, who drives him off but doesn't kill him.  The last we see of him in that season is a scene where he is preparing to undertake some kind of mystical test or ritual.

We ultimately come to learn that the ritual he underwent was one to restore his human soul to his vampire self, something he knew would cause him nigh-intolerable pain and guilt to the point of madness.  Despite being a demonic creature of evil, Spike chose to do this because he could no longer tolerate being what he was - a person willing to rape someone he cared about.  And so he chose to became someone different because the agony he would feel at that point was still better than continuing to be what he was.  That, to me, is redemption.

It's why I would ask the question about suicide.  Redemption is harder than suicide.  Both are sought if and only if someone feels their life to be intolerable.  They either makes themselves into nothing, suicide or they find a way to make themselves into someone different, maybe "better" but maybe just better able to cope with their situation.

Black Siren doesn't seem like she's anywere near those extremes.  She doesn't really need anyone or anything.  The only thing she seems to want is less hero types who are also less able to stop her from indulging herself however she chooses.  Not a recipe for redemption.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Not a recipe for redemption.

True.  But then, I didn't expect the character to be a regular next season either.

[lemotomato]

I still think they brought back KC as a regular to fill the regular villain role that JB/Merlyn played because they knew they might not get JB back. And they never really redeemed Merlyn as much as they had him allied with the team only when it benefited him.

[johntfs]

One thing they could do is refer back a bit to the meta-human army that Zoom put together at the end of Flash season two.  Figure Black Siren has a lot of knowledge of/contacts with those people.  Granted that Arrow hasn't done very much with true meta-human villains, but it would be a different direction for the show.

[BkWurm1]

Didn't they send most of the meta human army back to their earth?

[johntfs]

I really don't remember.  I suppose I figured that if they kept Black Siren at Iron Heights, they'd have kept the others there, too.  It was a pretty big plot point that Zoom was indirectly running things on Earth-2 (simply because no one could stop him or his gang).  I didn't think Earth-2 had the capacity to imprison metahumans due to that.

[way2interested]

They at least caught all of the metahumans, but I think they sent them back as well, if not keeping them in the Pipeline/metahuman wing at Iron Heights that they've referenced on Flash before. Black Siren was kept in the Pipeline (at least according to 510 since they showed footage of Prometheus freeing her from there).

[Primal Slayer]

There were A LOT of metas that were invading. The odds of 1 or 2 falling through the cracks are highly possible.

[bijoux]

The Pipeline is a section of a prison? You learn something new every day. I thought it was part of Star Labs.

[JamieLynn832002]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

The Pipeline is a section of a prison? You learn something new every day. I thought it was part of Star Labs.

I think the Pipeline and the metahuman section of Iron Heights are separate things and the Pipeline is part of Star Labs.

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I think the Pipeline and the metahuman section of Iron Heights are separate things and the Pipeline is part of Star Labs.

That's right.  I remember they said something about Cisco finally alerting them that Prometheus had broken Black Siren out of the Pipeland.  So, Prometheus managed to break BS out of a prison guarded by two-three metahumans including two of the faster people alive and a dude who can vibe the future?  Oh, what the fuck ever.

[BkWurm1]

Like they actually guard their prisoners.  Toss a bag of Big Belly burgers once in a while at best.  

Edited July 6, 2017 by BkWurm1

[johntfs]

33 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Like they actually guard their prisoners.  Toss a bag of Big Belly burgers once in a while at best.  

Well, that's true enough.  The Star Labs motto is clearly "Our door is always open."

[statsgirl]

Everyone was too focused on Iris and Savitar to take care of the Pipeline. I'm surprised Cisco noticed BS was missing.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Everyone was too focused on Iris and Savitar to take care of the Pipeline. I'm surprised Cisco noticed BS was missing.

Ha!  I'm pretty sure it took Felicity's call for them to notice, lol.  

[bethy]

As huge a failure as I think Diaz is as a villain and as bizarre as I now find KA in his acting and personal choices, I just have to say I liked KA so much in earlier roles. I’m rewatching 12 Monkeys in prep of season 4, and while I didn’t always like his character, I thought KA was good in that role. It’s weird to me to find myself thinking that when I’m watching him as Ramse when I’m so put off by how he’s playing Diaz. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, bethy said:

As huge a failure as I think Diaz is as a villain and as bizarre as I now find KA in his acting and personal choices, I just have to say I liked KA so much in earlier roles. I’m rewatching 12 Monkeys in prep of season 4, and while I didn’t always like his character, I thought KA was good in that role. It’s weird to me to find myself thinking that when I’m watching him as Ramse when I’m so put off by how he’s playing Diaz. 

I know what you mean. He was a pretty good "number" in an episode of Person of Interest. Then again, he spoke clearly and enunciated, and wasn't chewing the scenery. He's just good in supporting and minor roles, as far as I'm concerned. And I will FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER be BITTER!BITTER!BITTER! that Emerson's Cayden wasn't the big bad, and that he didn't bring in Reese this guy (see below) as his No. 1 Henchman, to kill everyone in Diaz's control, with the exception of Anatoly.

  

[bethy]

That would have been beautiful, indeed.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

That would have been beautiful, indeed.

I feel a season one and two of Person of Interest rewatch coming on...

[Primal Slayer]

They really should've had Alex Faust stick around way longer then he did. He was nice and cooky. 

[bijoux]

I had to google the guy. Was his name stated on screen? 

[Primal Slayer]

5 hours ago, bijoux said:

I had to google the guy. Was his name stated on screen? 

Yeah it was said after he blew open a hole to the SCPD station to let Siren and her men in.

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, I remember being disappointed when he died I think in his next appearance.  He too was more intersting than DDDiaz

[statsgirl]

Everyone was more interesting than DDDiaz: Cayden James, a brilliant man who thought he was doing good but created evil instead; Vince, an undercover cop who caught in the blast and decided to take the law into his own hands and later changed sides because of Dinah; Anatoly who joined because he felt betrayed by Oliver and lost his position with the Bratva, later realizing that Diaz is the great threat; and Black Siren who came from another earth and was/wasn't Laurel Lance.

DDDiaz  we're told is a long-range planner but who all we ever see is a thug with an impulse control problem and an inferiority complex..

[GHScorpiosRule]

This should probably go in the “cast in other roles,” but my point goes to what a horrible job ? (TM @Lady Calypso) has done on this show. I was watching Dawn of the Planet of the Apes last night, and I’d forgotten that he was in it, and yep, played another asshole, who did nothing but yell and I hated him more for attacking Caesar’s cute baby alone, aside from everything else he did. Point is, he wasn’t Mumbly Marble Mushmouth.

Was Emerson too expensive to be the main villain this season? ? is just sooo gross and doesn’t even have a tenth of talent that Emerson does.

Edited May 28, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[statsgirl]

Diaz is from the comics.  I bet that was the main factor.

[way2interested]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Was Emerson too expensive to be the main villain this season?

Partially that and it sounds like ME didn't want to commit to an August-April shooting and instead do like 2-3 work days until December to free up his 2018