S02.E02: She's Dying

[SailingBy]

No. Nothing about Eve indicates this scenario, not to mention it would be playing into a terrible trope.

 

And why would that stop the writers of HTGAWM? Nobody on this show behaves like any remotely normal human being would. Or even could behave in reality. On a multitude of levels. (For instance, I've wanted for a long time to write a post about the absurdities of Oliver's supposed Magical Super Hacker Skillz, which are really beyond parody, to anyone with even the slightest knowledge of how computers, and the internet, work for real. I never get round to it. The only plausible IT related thing he's ever been engaged in was in the pilot - that as an IT guy, he'd have the password to the email system for the company he works for makes sense. Nothing else he's ever been seen as doing in all his supposed "hacking" is even remotely possible.)

Edited October 8, 2015 by SailingBy

[Chicago Redshirt]

The lack of realism on various fronts (hacking/law school/practice of law/etc.) is a separate issue from whether TPTB would want to play into the stereotype of "spurned lesbian turns murderous." Since for the most part as far as I can tell as a straight guy, the show has been relatively LGBTQ-friendly, I would hope it doesn't go with a fairly tired anti-LGBTQ stereotype.

[secnarf]

The lack of realism on various fronts (hacking/law school/practice of law/etc.) is a separate issue from whether TPTB would want to play into the stereotype of "spurned lesbian turns murderous." Since for the most part as far as I can tell as a straight guy, the show has been relatively LGBTQ-friendly, I would hope it doesn't go with a fairly tired anti-LGBTQ stereotype.

I had no idea this stereotype even existed!! Wtf.

 

If anything, I could see AK shooting Eve before I could see Eve shooting AK, but to be fair we really don't know Eve very well. Although, I'm not entirely sure we know Annalise very well either.

 

I think the problem that shows run into is that they are pressured to show LGBTQ+ people in a positive light, otherwise they are accused of being homophobic, but the reality is that some LGBTQ+ people are "bad" people, the same way that some straight people are "bad" people. But because there are so few LGBTQ+ people on TV, to make one immoral or otherwise a bad person is seen as showing that all LGBTQ+ people are this way.

For example, some people fear that LGBTQ+ people are pedophiles and will go after your children, and should not be put in positions of power with close contact with kids, such as being a teacher. Although Wes is well above the age of consent and not a child, she is still his "teacher", and the questionable sexual undertones and maternal/child undertones in Wes' and Annalise's interactions - which were uncomfortable to begin with - are more risky now that we know Annalise isn't straight. I never wanted anything to happen between the two of them, because it's just creepy, but now I *really* don't want anything to happen between them because I don't want to add fuel to the fire because sadly, there are people who genuinely believe that part of being LGBTQ+ is being a pedophile, and this would just play right into that. It was clearly sketchy even when we thought AK was straight, but then it simply reflected on her character, not on the wider LGBTQ+ community. Hopefully one day we get to a place where this is a total non-issue, but I don't think we're anywhere close to there yet.

I still am leaning towards Bonnie being the one to shoot Annalise. Or maybe Frank.

[Chicago Redshirt]

You can find some examples of the crazy lesbians here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PsychoLesbian

[lion10]

No one group is shown in a good light on this show, in fact HTGAWM paints a very dim view of humanity. Everyone cheats with no remorse, our main character is on retainer for the mob...all our characters are unpleasant people so Annalise hooking up with Wes wouldn't be a knock against LGBT people. I do think Eve shouldn't be the one to shoot Annalise as it would play into the "psycho lesbian" trope. What I expect to happen is that Annalise and Eve have some falling out.

[represent]

 

No one group is shown in a good light on this show, in fact HTGAWM paints a very dim view of humanity. Everyone cheats with no remorse, our main character is on retainer for the mob...all our characters are unpleasant people so Annalise hooking up with Wes wouldn't be a knock against LGBT people. I do think Eve shouldn't be the one to shoot Annalise as it would play into the "psycho lesbian" trope. What I expect to happen is that Annalise and Eve have some falling out.

Exactly, this is how I see it as well.

[secnarf]

No one group is shown in a good light on this show, in fact HTGAWM paints a very dim view of humanity. Everyone cheats with no remorse, our main character is on retainer for the mob...all our characters are unpleasant people so Annalise hooking up with Wes wouldn't be a knock against LGBT people. I do think Eve shouldn't be the one to shoot Annalise as it would play into the "psycho lesbian" trope. What I expect to happen is that Annalise and Eve have some falling out.

I agree that no one group is shown in a good light on this show, and I also want to clarify that I don't think the intention of TPTB is to generalize Annalise's negative traits to the wider LGBTQ+ community. I just meant that those types of generalizations are unfortunately what happens. I don't think this should be the case, and in a perfect world it wouldn't matter at all. However, showing that people from all walks of life can be completely immoral doesn't negate that a completely inappropriate relationship between Annalise and Wes plays into the ignorance of those who believe LGBTQ+ people are pedophiles. The reverse is also true; any positive traits that Annalise shows won't be reflective of LGBTQ+ people as a group. Unfortunately, that's the way stereotypes and biases work - people will take any examples supporting their views and hold them up as "proof" that their views are correct, while ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

 

Thank you for the link explaining the psycho lesbian trope - I really had no idea it was a recurring theme in media. I think the difference is that the psycho lesbian thing is more common in TV/movies vs. real life, whereas it's more common to encounter real-life people who believe that LGBTQ+ people are pedophiles and/or going to corrupt kids and therefore shouldn't be teachers, rather than seeing characters like this in TV or movies.

 

Having said that, I also really don't want them to make Eve the "psycho lesbian", if for no other reason than I absolutely love her character, but the idea of that happening worries me less than the potential implications of a sketchy relationship between Annalise and Wes.

[Hamatron]

I don't think that Analise's sexuality matters in the case with Wes. If they were to do anything sexual, it would be inappropriate because you're not supposed to have sex with the people you employ/hire for an internship, and university professors can be fired for relations with students. If those two things weren't a factor, then whatever. It would be a May/December thing, but they're both well within the range of consent.

Plus, Analise is a complex, format-breaking character. There aren't too many shows starring a black, 40-something woman who is sexual, messy, and in power. That role was already unique before it was revealed that she previously dated a woman. Adding that detail in is brings even more varied representation to the show.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Hamatron

[secnarf]

I don't think that Analise's sexuality matters in the case with Wes. If they were to do anything sexual, it would be inappropriate because you're not supposed to have sex with the people you employ/hire for an internship, and university professors can be fired for relations with students. If those two things weren't a factor, then whatever. It would be a May/December thing, but they're both well within the range of consent.

Plus, Analise is a complex, format-breaking character. There aren't too many shows starring a black, 40-something woman who is sexual, messy, and in power. That role was already unique before it was revealed that she previously dated a woman. Adding that detail in is brings even more varied representation to the show.

Yes, I completely agree (and stated earlier) that I think a sexual relationship between Annalise and Wes is totally inappropriate regardless of either of their sexual orientations. However, the revelation that Annalise had/has a relationship with a woman brings a new layer into it due to the preconcieved stereotypes that a not-insignificant portion of the population holds. 

I think any time a show takes a specific group of people, particularly a minority group, and gives them a characteristic or storyline that plays into stereotypes, biases, or preconcieved ideas that (some) people may hold about that minority group, there is a risk that this will perpetuate that stereotype. I also think it's unfortunate that this is the case, because the reality is that people from all types of groups have negative traits and a show should be able to portray characters as having these traits without there being any other considerations.

 

Anyways, this is drifting off topic and I get the feeling I'm not explaining what I'm trying to say very well, but ultimately I really hope this is all moot and they don't go down this road with Annalise and Wes.

[SailingBy]

However, showing that people from all walks of life can be completely immoral doesn't negate that a completely inappropriate relationship between Annalise and Wes plays into the ignorance of those who believe LGBTQ+ people are pedophiles.

 

Sorry, and I know it's not really on-topic, but the misuse of the word "pedophile" always irritates me. It refers to people who are sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Wes is definitely not that. He's an adult. If there was some kind of sexual thing going on between him and Annalise, a lot of people would consider the age difference made that weird or creepy. And of course entirely inappropriate because she is both his law school professor, and his boss. But pedophilia it definitely wouldn't be. I also don't see how a heterosexual relationship like that would play into any stereotype about gay people, male or female. Is there some stereotype that middle-aged bisexual women prey on young men? I certainly have never heard of it.

Edited October 8, 2015 by SailingBy

[Hamatron]

Yeah. I think if you see a relationship between a 25'ish guy and a 40-something woman, and your mind goes straight to "that woman is bi, ergo pedophilia!" then you have problems that go way beyond the realm of what the showrunners should be accountable for in regards to positive LGBTQ representation. That's a big jump in logic.

Plus, saintly LGBTQ characters that never do anything negative (or have partners or love scenes) is also a trope. And a really dated one at that. I'll take messy and complicated people instead.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Hamatron

[secnarf]

Sorry, and I know it's not really on-topic, but the misuse of the word "pedophile" always irritates me. It refers to people who are sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Wes is definitely not that. He's an adult. If there was some kind of sexual thing going on between him and Annalise, a lot of people would consider the age difference made that weird or creepy. And of course entirely inappropriate because she is both his law school professor, and his boss. But pedophilia it definitely wouldn't be. I also don't see how a heterosexual relationship like that would play into any stereotype about gay people, male or female. Is there some stereotype that middle-aged bisexual women prey on young men? I certainly have never heard of it.

 

Yes, I did mention that earlier. Wes is an adult and the creepy nature of a sexual relationship between them stems primarily (in my opinion) from the quasi-maternal/child aspect of their relationship and also that she is his professor and employer. To me, the age difference is also a factor but less so than her sometimes acting like his mother. I am aware that it isn't actually pedophilia, I was just using the term because that is what (some) people think of the LGBTQ+ community. And this community can include heterosexual relationships. Frankly, I cannot explain why on earth people hold this conviction that LGBTQ people (of any gender) are a danger to their children (of any gender). It doesn't make any sense to me, but unfortunately I am very familiar with the effects and expression of this view.

 

Yeah. I think if you see a relationship between a 25'ish guy and a 40-something woman, and your mind goes straight to "that woman is bi, ergo pedophilia!" then you have problems that go way beyond the realm of what the showrunners should be accountable for in regards to positive LGBTQ representation. That's a big jump in logic.

Plus, saintly LGBTQ characters that never do anything negative (or have partners or love scenes) is also a trope. And a really dated one at that. I'll take messy and complicated people instead.

As I've said several times now, I don't think it's realistic to have LGBTQ characters who don't do anything negative or have negative traits. However, it is the reality of the world that we live in that anything negative from a member of a minority group gets generalized to the entire group. Sometimes this is extremely overt, but more often it's very subtle. I'm not saying that someone will watch this and then think all LGBTQ+ people are pedophiles.

[lion10]

I just want the writers to lay out what's supposed to be going on between Wes and Annalise.  Does she see her idealistic past in him?  Does she want to bang him?  Does she see potential in him to "look the innocent flower but be the serpent underneath it"?  And what's Wes' story?  He's the most mysterious of any of the Keating 5 and while that's intriguing, it can be a hindrance because I don't get his motivations or what his actions spring from. 

[slayer2]

The lack of realism on various fronts (hacking/law school/practice of law/etc.) is a separate issue from whether TPTB would want to play into the stereotype of "spurned lesbian turns murderous." Since for the most part as far as I can tell as a straight guy, the show has been relatively LGBTQ-friendly, I would hope it doesn't go with a fairly tired anti-LGBTQ stereotype.

 

Nailed it. Thank you.

Edited October 8, 2015 by slayer2

[jhlipton]

I've wanted for a long time to write a post about the absurdities of Oliver's supposed Magical Super Hacker Skillz, which are really beyond parody, to anyone with even the slightest knowledge of how computers, and the internet, work for real. 

 

His MSHS are on par with every "hacker" on TV or in the movies.  A character will say "I need.." and a few minutes later the MSH will have entry.  This is a standard trope not all unique or inflated on this show.

[Eolivet]

Great episode. A couple points made by others I wanted to touch on:

 

First, I don't think Annalise is capable of loving Eve -- or at least, not in a healthy way. I don't think Annalise is capable of loving Nate either. She was not only damaged by her past, as we saw, but then when she went to seek therapy, she ended up marrying her therapist. So, she never really got therapy. I think she recognizes this, as was clear in her scene with Bonnie. Her version of love is twisted -- through no fault of her own. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't view Eve any differently than Nate or Sam. I think Annalise went through a bunch of people, trying to find happiness, but has been unsuccessful. She seemingly cannot be happy, and it has nothing to do with her partner.

 

Some brilliant poster compared her to a woman version of Don Draper, and while I never saw that show, I think Annalise would similarly need some serious therapy before she was capable of loving anyone in a healthy way. I don't want to see her "fixed" anytime soon, as I find her fascinating. But I like that she "owns" her damaged nature.

 

Secondly, I don't want to see Asher involved in the murders. I believe ensemble dramas that are primarily about people killing each other need an "innocent" -- an outsider. I look at Asher like Matt on The Vampire Diaries: a "normal person" in a sea of "supernatural creatures." Asher provides perspective -- and makes sure the show is filled with people other than (highly entertaining) killers and killer-accomplices. Plus, he's comic relief -- the show skirts on the edge of too dour if it's nothing but people either matter-of-factly committing/knowing about murder or people wailing and rending their garments over the fact that they committed/know about a murder. The show needs something to break that tension, and Asher provides that. Keep the puppy innocent, show -- at least of murder knowledge, anyway.

[jhlipton]

Keep the puppy innocent, show -- at least of murder knowledge, anyway.

 

Everyone calls Wes the "puppy", but not only is Asher innocent, he really won my heart by refusing sex with Bonnie when he thought she was too drunk to consent.  That was a magical moment for me -- for all his "bro-ish" personality, Asher is a  very decent guy.

 

On the other hand, having him be totally unaware of the shenanigans of the K4, could strain believablity (especially with this group's inability to keep secrets).

[DollEyes]

 Two for two. This season is already turning out to be better than the last. As always, Annalise is the center of several storms, whether she knew it or not. Being a Shondaland show, some things defy logic but Viola Davis makes it work (well, sort of) like the Emmy-winning badass she is. I want to believe that Annalise loves Nate in her way, but her framing him for Sam's murder puts a damper on that and her testifying against Nate didn't help. Then there's the Eve Factor. Annalise & Nate have nice chemistry, but AnnaEve are explosive. Eve should just become a regular character. If that means getting rid of, say, Laurel, then so be it. Speaking of useless characters, I'm glad that DA is dead, or will be, anyway. Her desire to solve Sam's murder is understandable, but her cross-examining Eve during Eve's own questioning was ridiculous. Then there's the DA's threats to Asher about Trotter Leke. The more the DA obsesses about Annalise, the more doubts I have about her, not Annalise.

 

  Re Wes, he's coming into his own, with the way he had Rebecca's stuff thrown out of her old apartment and his tricking Raggedy Ann Menedez into revealing crucial information. Little by little, Wes seems to be embracing his dark side, possibly at Annalise's expense, if the mansion shooting is any indication. Re Connor's revealing Oliver's HIV-positive status in order to keep Asher from learning the group's secrets, that was wrong, especially since Oliver's own parents don't even know yet. Connor had to keep Asher out of the group's business, but he shouldn't have put Oliver's in the street to do it. Asher's response not only made things worse, when he name-checked Philadelphia as one of his favorite movies, I said, to quote Michaela, "stop talking." After that moment, I'm over Asher. His douchebaggery is neither cute nor funny to me anymore. What works for Chad Radwell on Scream Queens doesn't work for Asher. About Michaela, her friendship with Connor is cool, but her luck with other men sucks as much as ever, given her bond with Levi, the potential "Eggs911," who, unbeknownst to her & Wes, also knew Rebecca, is another red flag. As for Laurel's flirtation with Frank, it almost made me care that cold-blooded killers have feelings too-almost.

 

Yeah, no. I'm sorry I'm not trusting any hot light-skinned dudes with light eyes; I learned my lesson after watching Michael Ealy in The Perfect Guy. As Real Housewives Of Atlanta's Phaedra Parks would say, "Something in the buttermilk ain't clean."

 

LOL, so true, so true.

 

 I respectfully disagree. I don't trust Caleb either, but not because of his skin tone. As for Michael Ealy, since he was also in About Last Night,  the Think Like A Man  movies and Beyoncé's "Halo" video, I'll give him a pass.

[Neurochick]

The girl could be irritating, but they've all just dismissed her like trash. While the incident with Sam and the computer was stupid, she was told to do so by Nate and she was the most vulnerable of everyone else connected to Sam's death. Because of that I hold her less responsible. The fact that they just left her there, completely unable to defend herself really bothered me, and her promising to be good as Bonnie killed her was upsetting. Too much like an abused child begging their parent not to hurt them. It explained a lot about Rebecca. I always liked the actress because she looks like a grown up Gracie from The Nanny, who was a sweet girl

 

 

I never saw Rebecca as sweet or vulnerable.  I saw her as nasty and manipulative.  To me she kept dragging the story down, and I'm glad her character is gone. 

[dirtypop90]

I never saw Rebecca as sweet or vulnerable. I saw her as nasty and manipulative. To me she kept dragging the story down, and I'm glad her character is gone.

ITA and I like the actress but the character was awful. I still don't know what wes saw in her. He clearly just has some savior complex because his mother was messed up and ended up committing suicide.

[SailingBy]

His MSHS are on par with every "hacker" on TV or in the movies.  A character will say "I need.." and a few minutes later the MSH will have entry.  This is a standard trope not all unique or inflated on this show.

 

I know it's not unique at all. But it's still a completely damn stupid trope. This complete disregard for technical reality has been around forever, really. I remember as a kid laughing with my dad about how people in TV shows, or movies, were able to have "enlargements" made from a photograph, that allowed them, on the basis of a 35mm photograph (it usually seemed to be 35mm film), to zoom in on something like a license plate, or someone's face, accidentally captured in the distance, with crystal clarity. Once the digital age came around, this same nonsense became the "enhance this" trope, which I will demonstrate with a link that shows the nonsense much better than I could explain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxq9yj2pVWk

 

The things Oliver is shown doing in all his supposed "hacking" are completely impossible, and frankly risible. That doesn't help to make a show that, I think, is supposed to be still, somewhat, based on how real people behave, in the real world, appealing to me.

Edited October 9, 2015 by SailingBy

[aradia22]

Ugh, God. I don't want to be sucked into this but I am. They better make that final scene pay off. Right now it's so much better than Lila last season but if bodies keep piling up, it's going to be Clue... that is... ridiculous.

 

I'm sad Famke is gone but happy she's still in play. I'm conflicted about Nate. On the one hand, he's attractive. On the other hand, I don't really like what his angst brings to the show.

 

You'd think with all the shenanigans they get up to, they would know better than to trust any random person who walks up to them and asks to use their phone. What the hell, guys? I mean, thankfully they didn't, but their suspicions weren't roused at all?

 

Now Connor is going to beat himself up over Oliver contacting HIV because Connor cheated on him.

On the one hand, I like the adorableness/humor they bring to the show. On the other hand, I thought that was a great short scene because it gave so much insight into his character. More Oliver/Connor/Michaela please.

 

I'm sorry but Frank telling Laurel to get to know him was hilarious because it's like, "really Frank, do you really want Laurel to know you because who you are is a cold blooded murderer who strangled an innocent girl to death." Yeah...

So true. And did all the other students that he's slept with have to get to know him too? I feel like he just doesn't like being the one used though he's fine using other people. And that's not terribly sympathetic.