Xander

[SparedTurkey]

Well, obviously Dawn is wrong and barking up the wrong tree. Spike is gross and awful and a monster. But as you say she was working without knowing the whole deal. That said, Xander could have left her with the impression that Spike was the gross, awful monster without dropping in the attempted rape. Buffy was the only one who should have (if she wanted) told Dawn about the attempted rape. It isn't malice for Xander to express any dislike of Spike (and one can't blame him). I also give Xander the benefit of the doubt that he didn't intend to say it to hurt anyone. But seriously, say something else. It isn't like he didn't have a wealth of other points that wouldn't have shown a level of disrespect for a sexual assault victim.

 

I know I have been in threads criticising Xander for a few things. That said, I do like him. I think he was a good friend to Willow, Giles and Dawn, Tara etc. I don't think it is wrong for anyone to criticise Buffy and if Xander was genuine in his critiques I'd have no issues. My only thing is that I wish he was as good a friend to Buffy as he was to the others.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Well, obviously Dawn is wrong and barking up the wrong tree. Spike is gross and awful and a monster. But as you say she was working without knowing the whole deal. That said, Xander could have left her with the impression that Spike was the gross, awful monster without dropping in the attempted rape. Buffy was the only one who should have (if she wanted) told Dawn about the attempted rape. It isn't malice for Xander to express any dislike of Spike (and one can't blame him). I also give Xander the benefit of the doubt that he didn't intend to say it to hurt anyone. But seriously, say something else. It isn't like he didn't have a wealth of other points that wouldn't have shown a level of disrespect for a sexual assault victim.

 

I know I have been in threads criticising Xander for a few things. That said, I do like him. I think he was a good friend to Willow, Giles and Dawn, Tara etc. I don't think it is wrong for anyone to criticise Buffy and if Xander was genuine in his critiques I'd have no issues. My only thing is that I wish he was as good a friend to Buffy as he was to the others.

 

So then by this logic, Dawn was also disrespecting her sister by telling  Spike, "If you touch her again, you're going to wake up on fire."? Perhaps if the writers had allowed Buffy to really confront Spike about the attempted rape, it wouldn't have been a matter of who else said what. As it is, the most we really get is Buffy saying, "Ask me why I could never love someone like you" and later "You tried to rape me", the former of which Spike never responds to and the latter of which he poo-poos as if he stepped on her shoe by accident.

 

Beyond that, how is Xander not doing Dawn a favor by ridding her of the ridiculously absurd idea that Spike is not "gross and awful and a monster"? Like her sister, Dawn tended to be in denial about the potential for danger when it came to vampires, and I think she had some idea that Spike would never do that, yadda yadda. Why is exposing the little twit to some reality seen as disrespect when Xander was just trying to close the valve on Dawn's gushing? In the same situation, I'd have called her an idiot on top of telling her about the AR.

 

So maybe you can tell me, how could Xander have been a better friend to Buffy? Because it always seems to come up that it isn't what he says but how he says it, so was he supposed to take Willow's approach, which was to nod vigorously and say "Sure you should go out with Angel, that's a great idea." And that's not sarcasm. The main complaint always seems to be that Xander isn't gentle-voiced with her, that he gets angry etc, while Buffy is doing things that are potentially disastrous for not just her but the people around her. IMO, if my friend isn't allowed to have a little anger when they think I'm doing something idiotic, then maybe they aren't really my friend. And you'll notice that Buffy doesn't exactly sit there and take it, she gets right in Xander's face and yells back. If she had been some wilting flower who cringed in a corner while Xander screamed at her, I'd be more inclined to say that he was a bad friend, but that never happened.

[SilverShadow]

So then by this logic, Dawn was also disrespecting her sister by telling  Spike, "If you touch her again, you're going to wake up on fire."? Perhaps if the writers had allowed Buffy to really confront Spike about the attempted rape, it wouldn't have been a matter of who else said what. As it is, the most we really get is Buffy saying, "Ask me why I could never love someone like you" and later "You tried to rape me", the former of which Spike never responds to and the latter of which he poo-poos as if he stepped on her shoe by accident.

 

Beyond that, how is Xander not doing Dawn a favor by ridding her of the ridiculously absurd idea that Spike is not "gross and awful and a monster"? Like her sister, Dawn tended to be in denial about the potential for danger when it came to vampires, and I think she had some idea that Spike would never do that, yadda yadda. Why is exposing the little twit to some reality seen as disrespect when Xander was just trying to close the valve on Dawn's gushing? In the same situation, I'd have called her an idiot on top of telling her about the AR.

 

The problem with this scene is Xander is telling someone about the attempted rape Buffy suffered without her permisson. Full-stop. That is totally and completely unacceptable. He shouldn't be telling anyone but the cherry on-top is that it's her little sister, whom she is the guardian of. No one is saying Xander was wrong to tell Dawn that Spike was a danger. But from what I remember of the scene (and if somone can remind me which episode it's in, I'll happily rewatch) Xander wasn't so much worried about Dawn as angry at her foolish schoolgirl crush, and he lashed out with the most powerful weapon he had. Never mind that he was revealing a deeply upsetting and traumatizing event and to one of the last people Buffy would have wanted told. And I'd like to be able to dismiss it as a one-off event, like the spell in "Once More With Feeling," but Xander does shit like that fairly often across the seasons and so I have to take it as a character trait. And not one I like.

 

 

So maybe you can tell me, how could Xander have been a better friend to Buffy? Because it always seems to come up that it isn't what he says but how he says it, so was he supposed to take Willow's approach, which was to nod vigorously and say "Sure you should go out with Angel, that's a great idea." And that's not sarcasm. The main complaint always seems to be that Xander isn't gentle-voiced with her, that he gets angry etc, while Buffy is doing things that are potentially disastrous for not just her but the people around her. IMO, if my friend isn't allowed to have a little anger when they think I'm doing something idiotic, then maybe they aren't really my friend.

 

Here's my three least-favorite Xander moments in relation to Buffy, barring "Revelations" because that's been talked to death. First one: The "Prime Rib" speach from "Surprise."

 

 

Willow:  Maybe Buffy needed a few minutes to pull herself together. Poor

Buffy, on her birthday and everything.

Xander:  Hmm, it's sad, granted. But let's look at the upside for a

moment. (gets up) I mean, what kind of a future would she've really had

with him? (Willow looks sadly up at him) She's got 2 jobs -- Denny's

waitress by day, (Giles looks up, too) Slayer by night -- and Angel's

always in front of the TV with a big blood belly, and he's dreamin' of

the glory days when Buffy still thought this whole creature of the night

routine was a big turnon.

Willow:  You've thought way too much about this.

Xander:  No, no. That's just the beginning. Have I told you the part

where I fly into town in my private jet and take Buffy out for prime

rib?

Willow:  (sees Buffy come in) Xander...

Xander:  And she cries?

 

0 sympathy for Buffy losing someone she cares, possibly forever, about on her birthday. But wait-there's more. An extremely well-thought out fantasy he gleefully recounts of his best friend living in soul-sucking misery so he can imagine himself rescuing her. Great.

 

Then from "Passion":

 

 

Cordelia:  So Giles is gonna try to kill Angel then?

Xander:  Well, it's about time somebody did.

Willow:  Xander!

Xander:  I'm sorry, but let's not forget that I hated Angel long before

you guys jumped on the bandwagon. So I think I deserve a little

something for not saying 'I told you so' long before now. And if Giles

wants to go after the, uh, (looks up at Buffy) fiend that murdered his

girlfriend, I say, 'Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!' (looks back at Willow

and Cordelia)

Buffy:  You're right.

Willow and Cordelia look up at Buffy.

Xander:  Thank you.

Buffy:  (takes the rest of the steps down) There's only one thing wrong

with Giles' little revenge scenario.

Xander:  And what's that?

Buffy:  It's gonna get him killed.

 

1. Angelus's murder spree does not retroactively make Xander's pretty jealousy of Souled!Angel justified and that he would equate the two says some not entirely flattering things about his mental state. Also, no Xander, you do not get brownie points for being a decent person, especially not when you're about to lose all of them.

 

2. Everyone is upset. Everyone is grieving. Even Cordelia, Miss "tact-is-saying-not-true-stuff" is speaking softly in this scene. Xander is grieving too, and is feeling helpless and frustrated no doubt, so he lashes out in anger to make himself feel better. But he wasn't Jenny's lover like Giles, or someone she was mentoring, like Willow. And did he really not think Angelus killing someone so close to them wouldn't motivate Buffy? Or could he not resist the urge to "punish her" for A) loving Angel at all and B) failing to kill him prior. And lets remember, that when Anya was killing again how much of a 180 he pulled. Because his feelings-totally rational and justified.

 

And this scene from Becoming, which I'm going to split up into a few parts:

 

 

Willow:  Looks like Ms. Calendar was trying to replicate the original

curse. To restore Angel's soul again.

Giles:  (takes the printout, stares at it) She said it couldn't be done.

Buffy:  Well, she tried anyway. And it looks like it might have worked.

Xander:  So he killed her... before she could tell anyone about it. What

a prince, huh?

 

Not directed at Buffy, but that snide little aside, in front of Giles and Willow, was petty and kind of cruel.

 

 

Willow:  And I don't want danger. Big 'no' to danger, but I may be the

best person to do this.

Xander:  Hi! For those of you who have just tuned in, (gets up) everyone

here is a crazy person. (walks to the end of the table) So this spell

might restore Angel's humanity? Well, here's an interesting angle.

(harshly) Who cares?

Buffy:  I care.

Xander:  (not surprised) Is that right.

 

Xander should care. If he's well and truly so concerned about all the people Angelus could hurt or kill, then any solution that could stop that from happening is a viable one. And of course he has to get a dig at Buffy in.

 

 

Giles:  Let's not lose our perspective here, Xander.

Willow looks at Xander, disbelieving what she's hearing from him.

Xander:  (standing his ground) I'm Perspective Guy. Angel's a killer.

Willow:  Xander...

Buffy:  It's not that simple.

Xander:  (disgusted) What? All is forgiven? I can't believe you people!

Cordelia:  (gets up) Xander has a point.

Xander:  (to Cordelia, in a raised voice) You know, just for once, I

wish you'd support me, and I realize right now that you were, and I'm

embarrassed, so I'm gonna get back to the point, (to the others) which

is that Angel needs to die.

 

Xander wants venegance so very much. But who was Jenny to him? His computer teacher and a part of the Scooby Gang, sure. But both Giles and WIllow, who were much closer to her are both able to put other things ahead of their own feelings. That this might be the most expedient way to remove Angelus as a threat and that it might be less traumatic to Buffy, who they also care about. 

 

 

Giles:  Curing Angel seems to have been Jenny's last wish.

Xander:  Yeah? Well, Jenny's dead.

Giles:  (approaches Xander angrily) Don't you *ever* speak of her in

that tone again!

 

Ouch. Giles, Giles, who clearly would like to see Angel dead himself wants to honor Jenny by fulfilling the last thing she tried to do. And Xander spits in his face.

 

 

Xander:  (yells back) Can't you hear what I'm saying?

They begin to argue heatedly. Buffy rushes over and gets between them.

Buffy:  Stop it! Stop it!

They all shut up and glare at each other for a moment. Buffy turns away

and goes over to Willow, very upset. Giles paces away, also very upset.

Willow:  (quietly) What do you wanna do?

Buffy:  (sighs) (quietly) I-I don't know. What happened to Angel wasn't

his fault.

Xander:  Yeah, but what happened to Ms. Calendar is.

Buffy and Willow stare at him in disbelief.

Xander:  (very coldly) You can paint this any way you want. But the way

I see it is that you wanna forget all about Ms. Calendar's murder so you

can get your boyfriend back.

 

Buffy is understandably conflicted, Xander invokes Jenny again to try and justify himself despite being one of the least close to her of the core four. And then he fucking shoots his mouth off again. Buffy wanting to avoid killing something with her lover's face if she doesn't have to and wanting to see Angel again after everything that's happened, if she can, doesn't mean she's forgotten Jenny or that she won't do what has to be done if necessary. 

 

All three of the scenes I've pointed out have one thing in common coming from Xander: Xander's feelings=more important than anyone else's feelings and he's always perfectly reasonable and justified and not at all irrational the way Buffy is. Which, nope to all of the above.  

 

So how can Xander be a better friend?

 

1. Not enjoying fantasizing about his friend ending up destitute and unhappy.

2. Not invoking the death of someone he was only marginally close to to try and justify his feelings.

3. Not pretending he's the rational one when he's desperate to overlook a possible solution so he can see someone he hates die.

4. Not doing 2&3 to claim the moral high ground while pouring salt in the wounds of the two people who were closest to the person who died, while also insinuating the third person in the room doesn't care about the murder and just wants to bang her boyfriend again.

 

 

And you'll notice that Buffy doesn't exactly sit there and take it, she gets right in Xander's face and yells back. If she had been some wilting flower who cringed in a corner while Xander screamed at her, I'd be more inclined to say that he was a bad friend, but that never happened.

   

If someone punched me in the face, whether I fell to the ground crying, or got back up and took a swing at them, they still punched me in the face. And I don't know that I'd agree. Buffy I don't think ever gets as vicious as Xander does outside of "The Yoko Factor". And the most she says there is that if she "were anymore open-minded about the choices you two make my whole brain would fall out." Which, considering that so much of Xander's moral-highground where Angel was concerned was the danger of Angelus, and that he held him responsible for the crimes that happened when he was soulles, it was a bit rich that Xander was fine dating a totally unreptant former killer.

 

Xander, when pushed or upset, has a tendancy to lash out with deliberate cruelty and doesn't consider the feelings of others around him when he does so. It's something he grows out of more and more as the series goes on, thank goodness, but it's there.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

All three of the scenes I've pointed out have one thing in common coming from Xander: Xander's feelings=more important than anyone else's feelings

 

I guess I am a total weirdo like Xander then because for me my own feelings and opinions have a priority over anybody else. I was even thinking this must be true for the vast majority of people and fictional characters. No, really, I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean. Is Xander supposed to keep quiet any time his words might hurt someone's feelings?

 

 

4. Not doing 2&3 to claim the moral high ground while pouring salt in the wounds of the two people who were closest to the person who died, while also insinuating the third person in the room doesn't care about the murder and just wants to bang her boyfriend again.

 

Considering that Buffy couldn't find Angel for months after said murder she was either really inept or didn't really want to find him (or, you know, couldn't find him too early because the final showdown was to be in the finale but Xander wasn't to know that) this insinuation starts to smell like truth more and more.

 

And does it really matter how close Xander was to Jenny? I still want to see Angel die horribly for what he did to her and she is nothing but a fictional character to me.

[SparedTurkey]

 

So then by this logic, Dawn was also disrespecting her sister by telling  Spike, "If you touch her again, you're going to wake up on fire."?

How is that possibly the same thing? Or sounds at all what I was getting at? Considering I agreed with you that there was nothing wrong with Xander disabusing Dawn of the notion that Spike was awful. I just balk at what he chose to say. As how SilverShadow put much more eloquently than I would have - choose something else. It wasn't like Xander was gently explaining, I don't know, Buffy's mood or depression to her sister. Its not as though he thought it was really important that Dawn know. It was because he was annoyed with a young teenager, and lashed out from a place of moral superiority.

 

So maybe you can tell me, how could Xander have been a better friend to Buffy? Because it always seems to come up that it isn't what he says but how he says it, so was he supposed to take Willow's approach, which was to nod vigorously and say "Sure you should go out with Angel, that's a great idea." And that's not sarcasm. The main complaint always seems to be that Xander isn't gentle-voiced with her, that he gets angry etc,

Although SilverShadow went in depth, I'll chuck my two cents in. With Buffy, unlike others, Xander is remarkably callous and dismissive. He doesn't criticise her without slipping in some personal dig. And for the majority of the time, it seems to be caused by just jealousy. Obviously a good friend will tell you when you're being an idiot, yours do, mine do. But when I'm doing something idiotic, my friends are still nice to me.

 

Look, contrast Xander's attitude to Buffy and Willow in Surprise. Willow runs off and gets all overdramatic over Cordelia and Xander hooking up. Which, really, is a non-issue in the grand scheme of things, but is a nice thing he did. Xander follows her, makes sure she is okay and tries to talk her through it. He doesn't bow to Willow's feelings and say he'd never see Cordelia again. In other words, he is a pretty decent and assertive friend. In that same episode, Buffy is clearly worried that Angel might be dead. Openly worried. The Judge is around looking to destroy the world. Yes, he doesn't know about the sex (although isn't it interesting that Buffy never discusses that stuff with her good friend Xander?). But can he spare one shred of sympathy for his friend who is worried that her boyfriend might die? Nope. Can he be cruel, callous, dismissive? You betcha.

[SilverShadow]

I guess I am a total weirdo like Xander then because for me my own feelings and opinions have a priority over anybody else. I was even thinking this must be true for the vast majority of people and fictional characters. No, really, I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean. Is Xander supposed to keep quiet any time his words might hurt someone's feelings?

 

There's a difference between Xander sharing his opinion and Xander deliberately using his words to hurt someone else, especially someone he supposedly cares about. Generally if you care about someone their well-being and happiness matter to you.

 

When Giles puts forth that curing Angel was Jenny's last wish, Xander snaps back, "Yeah, well Jenny's dead!" Xander lost a teacher, a co-fighter against evil, and someone between an acquaintance and a friend. Giles lost his good friend and lover. Giles is willing to put his feelings aside to do what is best for everyone and honor the thing she died trying to accomplish. Xander is completely out of line, but he's pissed off, and he knows the comment will hit Giles where it hurts. 

 

Considering that Buffy couldn't find Angel for months after said murder she was either really inept or didn't really want to find him (or, you know, couldn't find him too early because the final showdown was to be in the finale but Xander wasn't to know that) this insinuation starts to smell like truth more and more.

And does it really matter how close Xander was to Jenny? I still want to see Angel die horribly for what he did to her and she is nothing but a fictional character to me.

 

There were three episodes between "Passion" and "Becoming": One where Buffy was incapacitated by the flu, one where she attempted to go after Angel and was possessed, and "Go Fish." At the start of "Becoming" Xander and Buffy were patrolling together and he seemingly didn't have any problem with her work ethic then. It was only when the curse became an option that he freaked out.

 

Xander's lack of closeness to Jenny matters when he throws her death in the face of two people who did truly care about her: Willow and Giles. Which he did. Repeatedly. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

There were three episodes between "Passion" and "Becoming":

 

 

And yet Passion took place in February or early March and Becoming in May or June (final exams are mentioned).

 

 

 

Generally if you care about someone their well-being and happiness matter to you.

 

 

Generally in a life or death situations people tend to yell when they are arguing. Here we keep discussing the same handful of episodes and it starts to sound almost as if those characters were hurling insults back and forth on a daily basis. Considering the high stakes (all the dead bodies), I am inclined to side with Xander yelling and Buffy (less often) yelling back than with Willow or Giles's almost superhuman understanding and calm. Just like I don't think Joyce is a terrible mother for threatening to kick Buffy out in Becoming or think Xander should have gotten way harsher reaction from Buffy at the end of B,B abd B.

 

And let's face it, spitting in Giles's face is a much more apt description for Buffy hiding Angel's return but I guess he isn't allowed to get angry about that either because he might hurt Buffy's precious feelings.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[SilverShadow]

Replying to Giles stuff in the Morality thread.

[Smad]

The Pack and BB&B...you gotta love those.

 

If Xander was completely driven by the Hyena why did he go gunning for Buffy? She might be Alpha-female in the Scoobie gang but certainly not in Sunnydale. Technically if Xander was 100% Hyena it would be more likely for him to go after Cordelia. So from whom came the desire to go after Buffy? That's from human Xander. Also hyenas don't rape. The females have found a way to make it unlikely to work so it wouldn't even be attempted in the first place. Then the question is again who does that desire come from? Can't be the hyena.

 

BB&B...Xander rapes Codelia's mind and in the process every female in Sunnydale, causes mobs to form (which most likely got people hurt...conveniently not adressed in the aftermath) and gets off free. AGAIN. Well ok I guess Willow not wanting to talk to him for a day or two is all the punishment he needed. Buffy forgives him right away. Of course telling Cordelia the actual purpose of the spell would have been the right thing to do. But then that would mean no more smoochies in the closet. Can't have that.

 

I'm not even gonna adress Revelations or the hypocrisy surrounding him dating Anya. It's been done enough in several threads now and I don't think another round of the 'other characters are so much worse defense' is needed. I rather judge Xander and his actions by themselves. Which I did above.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Smad

[Bitterswete]

If Xander was completely driven by the Hyena why did he go gunning for Buffy? She might be Alpha-female in the Scoobie gang but certainly not in Sunnydale. Technically if Xander was 100% Hyena it would be more likely for him to go after Cordelia. So from whom came the desire to go after Buffy? That's from human Xander.

 

That's a common trope in genre fiction. A person with unrequited feelings for someone is affected by some supernatural force which causes them to act on their feelings in violent ways. In fact, it would be hard to find a genre show that hasn't used that plot. And both BtVS and AtS used variations of that plot several times.

 

So, yes, Xander had a crush on Buffy. But the hyena possession took it to a dark place that it never would've gone to while he was in his right mind. In fact, I almost see that possession as Xander "losing his soul" for a while.

 

To me, the more telling situation is when Buffy, under the influence of a spell, threw herself at Xander and he wouldn't take advantage of her. I judge him more by what he did while in his right mind than what he did while under the influence of a malevolent spirit.

 

And there's no denying that what he did in BB&B was all kinds of wrong. But it's the kind of stupid, immature thing I can see a lot of teen-agers doing if they had access to magic and were hard on the heels of a painful breakup. In fact, doesn't Willow do similar things when she's older and more mature? 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Smad]

To me, the more telling situation is when Buffy, under the influence of a spell, threw herself at Xander and he wouldn't take advantage of her. I judge him more by what he did while in his right mind than what he did while under the influence of a malevolent spirit.

Yes he should be handed a medal for not taking advantage of someone who had their mind altered. Lets not forget he is the one who did it. I'm sorry but the least I expect from any decent human being is not taking advantage of someone under the influence, SPECIALLY if that being slipped the person the drug. How low are some here setting the bar for Xander and how high for all the other characters that constantly get raked over the coals? I just don't get it.

 

 

. In fact, doesn't Willow do similar things when she's older and more mature?

This is exactly what I meant at the end of my post. Can't defend Xander without the usual 'but XYZ did so much worse'. Why can't people ever say they have issues with certain things Xander has done/said without someone bringing another character into it? Is Xander really so saintly that he has no faults or missteps during the run of the show? Kinda doubt it.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Also hyenas don't rape. The females have found a way to make it unlikely to work so it wouldn't even be attempted in the first place. Then the question is again who does that desire come from? Can't be the hyena.

 

Obviously, the hyena spirit did not just turn people into two-legged hyenas, among other things it removed their inhibitions and made them almost as bloodthirsty as vampires. The way the lack of inhibitions and the blood thirst was expressed was based on Xander's human personality, just like the other four "hyena" continuing to harass other students was based on their human personalities. Is anyone actually contesting that?

 

 

Of course telling Cordelia the actual purpose of the spell would have been the right thing to do. But then that would mean no more smoochies in the closet. Can't have that.

 

How can you be sure that Xander didn't tell Cordelia the exact purpose of the spell? He told her it was aimed at her, she found that kind of romantic for some reason and then they were interrupted by another mob attack. Are you suggesting that Xander's thought process was something along the lines of "Well, better let her think I intended to (date-)rape her than tell her the truth which is (arguably) much less hurtful"?

 

 

Can't defend Xander without the usual 'but XYZ did so much worse'. Why can't people ever say they have issues with certain things Xander has done/said without someone bringing another character into it?

 

I would imagine one of the main reason is Xander's detractors saying things like "Unlike Xander, character X did...". Once someone goes there, someone will try to refute that point. This is true for any character discussions, not just Xander-centric ones. Not a great way to argue, no doubt, but the character comparisons are pretty much inevitable. Especially when one of the main points of contention is how character X "got away with murder" compared to character Y who is "unfairly blamed for everything".

Edited October 7, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[Bitterswete]

Yes he should be handed a medal for not taking advantage of someone who had their mind altered. Lets not forget he is the one who did it. I'm sorry but the least I expect from any decent human being is not taking advantage of someone under the influence,

 

Exactly. You seemed to be saying Xander could be judged by what he did while possessed by the hyena spirit. And my point was that I don't judge any character (the plot has been used a lot) by what they do while under the influence of some supernatural force that alters or influences their behavior. I judge them more by what they do when they are in their right mind, and BB&B was the perfect counterexample. Because if Xander were some kind of sexual deviant, surely he wouldn't have turned down any chance to have sex with Buffy.

 

This is exactly what I meant at the end of my post. Can't defend Xander without the usual 'but XYZ did so much worse'. Why can't people ever say they have issues with certain things Xander has done/said without someone bringing another character into it? Is Xander really so saintly that he has no faults or missteps during the run of the show? Kinda doubt it.

 

I wasn't trying to say, "XYZ did so much worse, so..." (Because I don't buy that one character doing something excuses what another character does.) My point was that, like I said, I can see a lot of heart-broken teen-agers doing something like what Xander did if magic was an option. In fact, Willow did similar things in similar situations, so what Xander did wasn't even an isolated incident on the show.

 

That being said, I don't see what's wrong with comparing and contrasting characters, using examples to make a point, etc. That's just what happens when discussing something like a TV show.

[Smad]

How can you be sure that Xander didn't tell Cordelia the exact purpose of the spell? He told her it was aimed at her, she found that kind of romantic for some reason and then they were interrupted by another mob attack. Are you suggesting that Xander's thought process was something along the lines of "Well, better let her think I intended to (date-)rape her than tell her the truth which is (arguably) much less hurtful"?

 I can be sure he didn't tell her because they were still together afterwards. That simple. His intend was to mind-rape her into loving him so he could break up with her to get even. That's the plot. What woman would stay with the guy afterwards? Cordelia most certanly wouldn't.

 

That being said, I don't see what's wrong with comparing and contrasting characters, using examples to make a point, etc. That's just what happens when discussing something like a TV show.

It's usually not wrong. But I read through the entire Unpopular, Law and Ethics, Xander and Buffy topics and it made me uncomfortable. Other characters/posters get racked over the coals. And get their posts picked apart and set 'straight'. Again it's probably because there are only certain people currently posting on this board so it's kinda claustrophobic. But it made me uncomfortable for the simple reason that it feels like bullying. The whole time I'm reading these topics I'm thinking to myself: 'What is so wrong with having a different opinion? Why must 3-4 people jump on someones post and deliver their replies in such an authoritative way that it amounts to 'my opinion is the only right one.'' And that usually happened when soemone said something negative about Xander.

 

It's honestly why I wasn't sure if I should be even posting in any of the threads.

 

And before anyone accuses me of harping on some of Xander's actions because I like other characters more (because that's also a stereotype)...Xander was the only character (aside from Faith) that I didn't want to push to their death into the crater formerly known as Sunnydale. And I freaking love him in the S8 comics, crap and non-canon as they may be (no matter what Joss says to the contrary).

Edited October 7, 2014 by Smad

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

I can be sure he didn't tell her because they were still together afterwards. That simple. His intend was to mind-rape her into loving him so he could break up with her to get even. That's the plot. What woman would stay with the guy afterwards? Cordelia most certanly wouldn't.

 

So "mind-raping" her with the goal of (presumably) keeping her under his thrall for an extended period of time and (probably) raping her in the process, too is somehow more acceptable to Cordelia then? I beg to differ. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[Cobalt Stargazer]

What is so wrong with having a different opinion? Why must 3-4 people jump on someones post and deliver their replies in such an authoritative way that it amounts to 'my opinion is the only right one.'' And that usually happened when soemone said something negative about Xander.

 

It's honestly why I wasn't sure if I should be even posting in any of the threads

 

Nothing is wrong with having a different opinion, and I don't believe anyone said there was. Speaking for myself, I would perhaps defend Xander a little less...stridently if the implication didn't seem to be that him being "mean" to Buffy is the absolute worst thing anyone could ever do. The last thing Buffy needed was for somebody to always agree with her and tell her that her judgment was always correct, (she had Willow for that) and it isn't as if she actually ever listened to Xander anyway. And then you bring up the thing with the hyena spirit, seeming to imply that Xander had always wanted to rape Buffy and was just using that as his excuse, and I don't even have the vocabulary to tell you how much I disagree with that. So no one is saying don't post, but its only a discussion if more than one person is taking part. :-)

[formerlyfreedom]

Folks, let's keep it civil in here. Hopefully we can all just agree to disagree. It's getting circular in here, and making your mods dizzy, so let's move on. Thank you.

[SosaLola]

I love Xander. He's the reason I watched the show as I'm not into vampires and creatures of the night. Nicholas Brendon's looks (I shamefully admit) and the adorkable-ness of Xander's character pulled me to the show. The Zeppo was the episode that made me a fan. Then I started reading Spander fanfiction and was disappointed it wasn't canon. 

[amensisterfriend]

Xander annoyed me sometimes, but I adored him anyway. Honestly, I think in many ways he was the best blend of consistent, salient strengths and relatable (to me!) flaws of any other BtVS character. I think Nicholas Brendan did a phenomenal job with a role that was deceptively hard to play. 

 

I hated his "tryst" with Willow and (another unpopular opinion alert!) his relationship with Anya, but I never stopped loving the character and felt he added a tremendous amount to my enjoyment of the show. I also really loved the Buffy/Xander friendship---not in spite of the fact that he challenged her and let his emotions get away from him sometimes, but because of it. 

Edited January 25, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Bitterswete]

- Xander embodied too many of the so-called Nice Guy™ qualities for my liking.

 

To me, a guy isn't a Nice Guy (or even kind of a Nice Guy) unless they share the Nice Guy's main motivation, which is that they just want to "get the girl" (in whatever way they define that) and don't actually care about her beyond that.

 

This isn't something I ever applied to Xander. There's no doubt in my mind that he cared about Buffy as a friend and a person, and always would even if she never returned his romantic feelings. There was a time when he would've been thrilled if she had romantic feelings for him, but that wasn't the only reason he was in her life, or tried to be there for her they way he did. (Including encouraging her to try to work things out with another guy because he thought she'd be miserable if she didn't.) 

 

As for Xander having Nice Guy traits, a lot of those traits are just being human. (It's pretty human to get upset if someone you have feelings for has feelings for someone else.) The difference is that, with most people (and in Xander's case) someone you really like liking someone else just hurts, and people don't always react to that kind of pain in the best way. With an actual Nice Guy, he's thinking, "I've been pretending to be her friend, acting like I actually care about her, and doing all of this stuff for her, but she's all into someone else, which means all of my hard work has been for nothing."

 

Which, like I said, was never where I thought Xander's head was at. So I just can't think of him as a Nice Guy, or even Nice Guyish.  

Edited February 9, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Which, like I said, was never where I thought Xander's head was at. So I just can't think of him as a Nice Guy, or even Nice Guyish.  

 

Particularly since it was during Prophecy Girl that Xander asked Buffy on a date and she said no....and then he went and forced "romantic hero" Angel to take his thumb out of his backside and do something to help her when she was going off to fight the Master. If he didn't genuinely care about her, I doubt he'd have bothered, but it was Angel who was too scared to get off his butt without being driven into it at cross-point.

[cheezwhiz346]

I have lots of contradictory feelings about Xander, in that I never really disliked him as a character (and part of this might be that I started watching the show when I was so young (around 12) and if I came to it later I might have felt differently), but there are things about the way he is sometimes portrayed that really get to me. As in, I feel like Joss wanted him to simultaneously be a kind of stand-in for himself, and also for the geeky/normal 'everyman.' The everyman is a concept I have a problem with in general, because it basically says 'there is such a thing as a default human and we're telling you this is it, so relate to this character.' And that's just not a true concept. And I think this was proven throughout the show as Joss seemed to get a bit bored with his storyline and started ignoring him in later seasons or giving him kind of generic plotlines that he felt like an 'everyman' should have (fear of marriage/commitment/etc.). And that bugged me, because when Xander wasn't this representative/token character, he was really likeable to me as a character (even if I didn't always agree with him/relate to him).

 

It's kind of like Xander had a reverse Smurfette/token female thing going on (even though there were more male characters on the show and it's a bit more complicated than that).

[GreenScreenFX]

Got arrested AgaiN ( March 13)... i didn't see an "actor in real-life topic". Anyway that makes 3-4 times this year. Sad.

[Kanner]

Xander is my favorite. I've read through most of the thread and see he is very polarizing. It's funny, SilverSadow's post that had all the examples of what SS thought were bad Xander moments, most of those are examples of why I liked Xander. He was not expressing feelings, he was stating facts about Angel. I was in his corner in all those discussions about the Angel/Angelus problem. And I did't have a problem with Angel as a character. (Just the creepy age difference between him and teenage Buffy).

[Moo]

So, yes, Xander had a crush on Buffy. But the hyena possession took it to a dark place that it never would've gone to while he was in his right mind. In fact, I almost see that possession as Xander "losing his soul" for a while.

I totally agree with this. I always saw it this way too. And it's one of the main reasons I think Xander is so horribly blind to his faults - something that was aided by the fact that no-one ever really called him out on them. Xander essentially 'lost his soul' and tried to rape Buffy, something the souled version of him would NEVER do no matter how strongly he pined for her. I can understand how a teenage boy's ego wouldn't allow him to ever actively like Angel (and later Spike) for having the part of Buffy he so desperately wanted, but I could never see my way past how he couldn't understand the difference between souled and unsouled Angel, considering he'd experienced the exact.same.thing. the year before. That's just blindness and it went on for years, transferring from Angel to Spike.

 

I don't hate Xander, I never did. But I hated his behavior on more than one occasion. I thought he could be tremendously nasty to Buffy, all because she was the big rejection in his adolescence that really hit him where it hurt. A propensity towards cruelty is not a nice trait to have and Xander had it in spades. But on the other hand, he could also be incredibly encouraging and loyal and fiercely protective of his friends and loved ones - all traits that are IMO heroic, and not a superpower in sight. So was he perfect? Nowhere near it. But it kinda made me like him more.

 

One area that always gets me riled is when people try to blame Buffy for Xander losing his eye. I cannot count the amount of times Xander begged and whined and pleaded to be in the gang, included in any decision and brought along for any mission they undertook. When eventually his luck ran out and for once HE was the one who took one for the team, what happens? People blame Buffy and say how awful it was she put him in that position. Right. Because Buffy hadn't been saying for years that maybe the Scoobies shouldn't be in the field with her. Nope. Never heard those words come out of her mouth.

 

Xander's heroism was entirely down to him. And so were his failings. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Imported from another thread:

 

That said, it's weird to me how in a lot of communities in which I participate (read: feminist), hating on these guys is like toeing the party line. It's not that I don't agree that they had their moments, esp. w/r/t Xander, but IDK. I feel like with Xander he got so much cred for being the 'normal guy' who 'fights the good fight' and I think that was really overblown (I see it somewhat on smaller forums like on Storywonk), but the criticism in reaction to that became more like outright hatred of everything he says or does, and I'm not comfortable with that either. I want to be able to discuss each characters' flaws without starting from a place of unequivocal hatred, which fortunately bigger forums like Previously.tv allow. (This is not meant to be discussing fandom behavior, and I tried to keep it general; but I think my feelings of the characters are somewhat tied to the reactions of others online).

 

This is an interesting idea, damngoodcoffee, and I'll expand on it a bit.

 

I do think Xander gets a lot of sometimes unfair blame. I can admit, as a huge fan of his, that he's pretty flawed, but no more so than any of the other characters. The problem for me is when no matter what the situation is, he's somehow always seen as being in the wrong, and it doesn't matter what he's doing or saying, he's just wrong and mean and wrong. Particularly when the opposite side of the argument is whatever Buffy happens to be doing at the time.

 

But that's hardly productive, at least IMO. Because all it does is give Buffy a pass for X Hurtful Thing she's doing. Xander, and to a lesser extent Willow, usually end up being bashed by the fandom for hurting Buffy's feelings, and somehow the reason he/they are mad at her gets swept under the rug by people who hate him just because he's breathing, I know this is an old argument. But since the usual anti-Xander battle cry is "He's being so childish!" or something similar, then shouldn't Buffy be as mature as he's expected to be and not put her feelings ahead of everyone else's in the first place?

[Bitterswete]

I do think Xander gets a lot of sometimes unfair blame. I can admit, as a huge fan of his, that he's pretty flawed, but no more so than any of the other characters.

 

The first time through the show, I wasn't exactly a huge Xander fan. But I never had a problem seeing his point of view, or getting where he was coming from. He was flawed, and didn't always go about things the best way, but what high school kid is going to handle every situation perfectly? And most kids his age don't find themselves in the types of intense, high pressure situations he was in on a regular basis.

 

Plus I often thought he had a good point. For example, I didn't necessarily want to see Angel get dusted in season two. But I could certainly see why Xander did. Whatever feelings he had for Buffy, I thought he was genuinely scared of the psycho who seemed to have no qualms about killing any of them at any time, and was running around making their lives hell. And, when Angel got his soul back, it was just common sense for Xander to think he could lose it again and try to kill them all. Because that's what I would've been afraid of in his shoes.

 

But, because Xander did have those feelings for Buffy, he often got written off as being "just jealous," even when what he said or did seemed totally justified to me.

[cheezwhiz346]

Imported from another thread:

 

 

This is an interesting idea, damngoodcoffee, and I'll expand on it a bit.

 

I do think Xander gets a lot of sometimes unfair blame. I can admit, as a huge fan of his, that he's pretty flawed, but no more so than any of the other characters. The problem for me is when no matter what the situation is, he's somehow always seen as being in the wrong, and it doesn't matter what he's doing or saying, he's just wrong and mean and wrong. Particularly when the opposite side of the argument is whatever Buffy happens to be doing at the time.

 

But that's hardly productive, at least IMO. Because all it does is give Buffy a pass for X Hurtful Thing she's doing. Xander, and to a lesser extent Willow, usually end up being bashed by the fandom for hurting Buffy's feelings, and somehow the reason he/they are mad at her gets swept under the rug by people who hate him just because he's breathing, I know this is an old argument. But since the usual anti-Xander battle cry is "He's being so childish!" or something similar, then shouldn't Buffy be as mature as he's expected to be and not put her feelings ahead of everyone else's in the first place?

I think ultimately people respond the characters in certain ways for myriad reasons- which is kind of a cop out, but I really do feel like people's reactions to BtVS characters in particular are pretty complicated- I mean, there are a lot of people out there who will defend Spike and his 'redemption arc' until the end of time but will hate Faith and her arc with equal fervor, and I will never understand that, myself.

 

W/r/t Xander, I was always bugged by how hard he could be on Buffy when it came to Angel, and how he treated the women in his life more generally. I don't think he was some put upon saint for dealing with Anya's inappropriate jokes and violent past, because he chose to be with her, and I think he had a tendency to put both her and Cordelia down when they were dating, way too much for my taste. That said, I don't think his concerns about Angel should have been brushed aside as driven solely by jealousy, and I think ultimately he was a good-hearted decent person and definitely a worthy member of the scoobies. I also didn't like the credit he seemed to get from a lot of fans for being the 'normal' one, nor did I like the idea that he was the heart of the show, as while I did think he was a good and decent person, I didn't think he really quite earned that title. It felt like an overreach, like an 'oh, he doesn't have special powers but fights anyway; that must mean he has more emotional intelligence' kind of thing. IDK, I know this is a ramble, but I guess I've always been more in the middle on Xander, never able to get on either side of the fence w/r/t liking or disliking him and his behavior. That said, I feel like that about a lot of characters on Buffy, including Willow. My biggest problem with Xander's character actually was probably what I saw as Joss Whedon's lack of interest in really doing any real character work with him past season 3 or 4. 

[Mayutchi]

I just read through this entire thread, and while I do admit, I saw some good points about Xander's character, I still have to come down on the anti-Xander side. I just cannot abide his hypocrisy and possessiveness. 

 

I completely understand his hatred of vampires; the first episode, a friend he and Willow both grew up with was turned, and was killed. That's completely understandable. And while I was never a fan of Angel either, Angel never once gave Xander a reason to hate him, until he lost his soul. Angel saved them all multiple times, but the second his soul is gone, there's Xander with his instant "I told you so." So if Angel had never lost his soul, wouldn't it seem logical that by continuing to make jabs about him to Buffy, that he would only end up driving a wedge between them? That doesn't seem like the kind of friend I would want around, making me become stuck between my boyfriend and a close friend. That's an awful thing to do to someone you care about. But that part of this tirade has been talked to death, so I'll stop there in regards to Angel.

 

As for his possessiveness, I have to say that the guy knows no bounds. He mopes (perhaps "mopes" is the wrong term, but I couldn't think of a more appropriate description) around, making cracks at Angel and Spike, because they got Buffy in a way he never could. Jealousy is fine. It's understandable. But again, it seems like he was determined to drive that wedge between him and Buffy, just because she turned him down. And as for the "clothes fluke" in Homecoming, I'm not convinced that that was him realizing his feelings for Willow. In When She Was Bad, when he nearly kissed her, it seems more to me like that was him being bored, and Willow was handy, while Buffy wasn't around. Because the second Buffy came back, he was back to ignoring Willow again. And I think it was the same in Homecoming. I saw it as a way of him trying to test whether Willow was still into him, despite the fact that she was dating Oz. There were numerous times that he made jabs at Oz, too, I'm sure just because he was with Willow, and he felt threatened that Willow might not be around him anymore. 

 

It's funny, though. His possessiveness is awfully picky, as well. He was sure okay with Buffy dating Riley, the only human (and, in my opinion, someone eerily similar to Xander himself), and he never seemed to mind Tara. I think he saw another man in Willow's life as a threat, and he knew enough about Riley to know that the two of them were alike, and thought that would be acceptable. Like it's his choice who they date. Now, I don't like Riley, and I have my reasons, which I won't say here, as this isn't the proper thread. But I find it ridiculous that Xander's reactions to these different people vary so much, because they're not male or human. It borders on racism, and it's unacceptable. 

[VCRTracking]

I always think if Xander had been played by an actual 16 year old I would forgive a lot because I could accept his immaturity. You see a kid that age acting like an insensitive jerk, you think "Well, he'll grow out of it." He was written as emotionally true to how a teenager would act, unlike say on Dawson's Creek. However, like that show they cast an actor in his 20s to play the character. I like Nicholas Brendon and thought he did a great job with what he was given, but there is a disconnect to seeing an adult always be that self-centered, clueless, insensitive, and petty, the way most adolescents are.

[SosaLola]

Xander is my favorite character.

Twenty Reasons to Why Xander is So Awesome!

1) He's brave.

Lack of superpowers doesn't stop him from risking his life to save his friends, his enemies, and the world. Xander had just learned that vampires existed yet he followed Buffy into the sewers to rescue Jesse. Xander could have run away when the old high school started collapsing, but instead he jumped to save Spike regardless of the falling rocks. 


2) He's loyal.

Xander had been offered to leave the fight and run away, to live a normal life away from all the monsters and death threats, but Xander rejected Anya's offer and stayed. He'd never leave his friends no matter how tempting it is. Xander could have started over new after Chosen. After all he lost, no one would blame him for quitting, but here he is, helping Buffy setting an organization in Scotland. 


3) He's attracted to strong women.

Strong women turn him on: Slayers, demons, and head cheerleaders. She's got to be confident and tough. Just hearing that Kendra is a Slayer made Xander interested, but once he realized she's insecure around men, he lost interest. 


4) He's got no problem following strong women.

Xander looks up to Buffy, values her opinion and follows her lead no matter what. When Buffy dies, he elects Willow as their leader, because she too is a strong woman he admires. Also, when he's in danger, the first name that pops into his head is Buffy. No one can save him or have the answers but Buffy. She, a woman, is his hero and idol. 


5) He's funny.

"I laugh in the face of danger. Then I hide until it goes away." "To read makes our speaking English good." "Someone else's loss is my chocolaty goodness." "That is wrong. Big, fat, spanking wrong. It's a slap in the face to every one of us that studied hard and worked long hours to earn our D's." "You and Will go do the superpower thing. I'll stay behind and putter around the batcave with crusty old Alfred here." "Sunnydale: Come for the food, stay for the dismemberment."



6) He's an achiever.

After trying a series of jobs in S4, Xander finds out he's good at construction. Xander works so hard he earns promotions and raises, and becomes the most successful Scooby at a very young age. He gets his own crew and bosses men older than him and he's just turned twenty. Not to mention, finding a time to help out Buffy when he's got a full-time job. Coming home after working under California's burning sun and still having the energy to research and help Buffy? As slayers go, Buffy is so lucky to have a friend like Xander. 


7) He's perceptive underneath the Hawaiian wear.

He figured out how to defeat so many villains despite the common belief that he's the dumbest dumb since Dumb and Dumber. He's been insightful enough to figure out what Buffy's problem was in When She Was Bad. He was the one who figured out that they'd resurrected Buffy and left her in her coffin. 


8) He's the shoulder his friends cry on.

Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Cordelia and Anya had leaned on his shoulder and poured their hearts out. He doesn't mind listening to their problems and helping them out with a well-worded speech. 


9) He teams with people he dislikes to save Buffy and the world.

He teamed with Angel many times to save the day in the earlier seasons, most notably, Prophecy Girl. And also teamed with Spike in the later seasons, most notably, Him. Despite how he feels about them, he helps Buffy save Angel in Amends and Graduation Day Part 1 and lets Spike live with him twice because it's the right thing to do. 


10) He helps Anya find love again.

He takes Anya in and starts a relationship with her. He gives her a friend, when she's abandoned by everybody. He offers her a seat in most of the Scooby gang meetings, making her a Scooby despite how his friends felt about her. He teaches her how to be socially competent, kisses her and snuggles with her in front of all his friends, and when he thinks about giving up his life to his evil twin, Anya is the only one he can't give up. Evil twin can take away everything, but Anya. 


11) He loves Buffy and Willow no matter what. 

Nothing Buffy and Willow do will stop Xander from loving them. He may get angry at times, but he always forgives them, always tries to see where they're coming from even if he doesn't want to. Ending the world and shagging soulless Spike are really upsetting but eventually don't matter at all. Buffy and Willow will always be number one in his heart. 



12) He forgets all about his problems and injuries when one of his friends is hurt.

His friends come first. And then Xander. When he was just humiliated by the superior college dude and his boss, he forgets all about it the second he sees a depressed Buffy and instead of venting, he asks her if he could help. In Older and Far Away, he forgets about his injured arm the second he sees Anya standing at the door and looking scared. He jumps to comfort her in an instant. 


13) He sacrifices himself for those he loves.

When Ampata wanted to suck Willow's face, Xander offered up himself to save Willow, knowing that by doing that he's gonna definitely die. When Toth shot Buffy, Xander pushed her out of the way and got shot instead. When Olaf asked him to choose between Anya and Willow, which one was gonna die, Xander offered to be killed so that Anya and Willow would be spared. 


14) He's not afraid to put himself in danger to save his friends.

In scary frat house where boys get orgasms from walls and girls cut their hair bold, everyone is outside shaking or escaping, but not Xander. He must go in and try to save Buffy and Riley. He'd have gone there alone if it wasn't for the spirits pushing him outside. He attacked Spike who can stand in daylight without bursting to flame to help Buffy. He'd basically throw himself at anything or anyone to save his friends, even if it was useless. 


15) He never left Buffy's side.

Everyone basically left Buffy at one point or another. Angel left to find redemption, Cordelia left to find fame, Riley left to find a purpose, Giles left to teach Buffy how to be responsible, Spike stayed in LA to be his own man, Willow left to find a guide, and eventually Dawn left for college. 

Apparently, Xander did leave to grieve. But being captured by Dracula made it impossible for him to come back, until Buffy marched in and saved him. And then he and Buffy worked together in Scotland. 


16) He helps Buffy out with real life matters.

He drives her and Dawn to school, he fixes her house for free, and he's there for Dawn playing the parent role when Buffy's too busy. 


17) He admits being a jackass to Buffy when it comes to Angel and Spike.

"Look, I'm aware I haven't been the mostest best friend to you when it comes to the whole Angel thing, and, um, I don't know, maybe I finally got the Chanukah spirit."

"It hurt. That you didn't trust me enough to tell me about Spike. It hurt. Maybe you would have, if I hadn't given you so many reasons to think I'd be an ass about it."


18) He's there when no one notices Dawn's pain. 

He's there when Dawn cries over Buffy stealing RJ, he's there when she's down about not being a slayer, he's there when she grew into a giant and needed someone to talk to, he's there when she talked about Kenny and Nick, he's there when she turned into a half-horse and also needed someone to talk to. 


19) He doesn't see things in a black/white fashion.

He's fine with Oz. He's fine with Clem. He's fine with Anya, despite cringing at her past crimes –who wouldn't? He's fine with Willow being a witch. He's fine with Dawn being a ball of energy. He doesn't seem to like the Initiative approach, and took Buffy's side on the wrongness of their experiments. He even found Vampire Buffy and Vampire Willow hot, and wondered if he was as badass as a vampire. I think his reasons for disliking Angel and Spike weren't solely on them being vampires. I don't even think it features in his top ten reasons, and I believe he usually uses the vampire card as a cover for the real reason behind the hate. 


20) He doesn't get much appreciation for his contributions, but he celebrates his victories alone.

The Zeppo is an obvious example. Xander saved his friends' lives, and they never knew, because he didn't tell them. Cordelia taunted him about his uselessness and he didn't tell her either. Instead, he walked away confidently with pride. It doesn't matter if they knew, the important thing is that Xander knows. And he only shares it with Dawn later, because she's in his shoes as well.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, SosaLola said:

17) He admits being a jackass to Buffy when it comes to Angel and Spike.

Xander is no worse than Buffy and Willow when it comes to being judgmental jackasses about each other's romantic choices.

[VCRTracking]

His good moments(season 4 premiere, season 6 finale, making Dawn feel better in season 7) definitely far outweigh the bad ones. Xander does get a lot of crap from fandom and I think it's mostly because of his dislike of Angel and Spike. They hate him because he hates their faves. Well, Angel never gave a shit and Spike hates Xander just as much.

Edited May 4, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

I'm a fan of Xander, and I usually agreed with his position on big issues on the show, particularly when it came to Spike or Angel, but he was often ... overly harsh and biting in expressing himself in arguments. So I can understand people not liking him.

Like, for me, Xander is that person you agree with but you don't want to be the one representing your side in an argument because he's going to express that argument in a really asinine way.

On a meta level I think he was intentionally written in that way to undercut his points, and the manipulative writing annoys me.

On 5/4/2017 at 0:10 PM, VCRTracking said:

Well, Angel never gave a shit and Spike hates Xander just as much.

Indeed. Keeping in mind that Spike, quite literally, tried to murder Xander and his friends multiple times, not liking Spike is just smart.

And Angel was an adult man who was hanging around a bunch of high school kids because he wanted to bone a 15 year old girl.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 4/16/2017 at 3:40 PM, Dee said:

Xander is no worse than Buffy and Willow when it comes to being judgmental jackasses about each other's romantic choices.

And this, to me, is the key. And I've made this argument before, but everything Xander is 'guilty' of are things the other characters are also guilty of. And yet somehow Xander is usually the only one who ends up being seen as the devil.

He's rude to Cordelia. ....And? Considering that was how they got out of the not-so-friendly stage to begin with, it doesn't seem like she minded. Hell, half the time she'd start it, like the time she insulted him about four times in a row just because he stepped on her shoes, and he didn't even saying anything until she'd criticized his coordination, questioned his masculinity, and generally said he wasn't fit to exist.

He hurt Willow by waiting until she was involved with Oz to make a move romantically. Okay, I guess, but given that the show was all about female characters being proactive instead of passive, could Willow not have used her words and made it plain that she wanted more than friendship? Fair enough to say that he might have rounded that corner on his own, but an assist might have helped.

He denigrated Buffy and Willow's romantic choices. And yet its Willow who tells him "You'd rather be with someone you hate than be with me" and Buffy who mocks his notion that he has a connection with Faith after he had sex with her. Because clearly it would have just killed her to let him think that losing his virginity meant something. Not to mention that she later tells both Xander and Willow "If my mind was any more open about some of the choices you two have made, my brain would fall out!", but that is probably another subject for another thread.

The Lie, of course, is the thing that is most seen as 'proof' that Xander was a bad person. And yet Buffy turns right around and lies to everyone about Angel being back, and while I suppose you could say she lied because she didn't want to lose Angel again, I'm puzzled even after all this time how dishonesty is bad when Xander is doing it but good when it's Buffy.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I hate what they did to the character. I wish they made him less goofy. My favourite episode for him is The Pack. They should have gone with a more darker approach. I hate the writers of the show.

[Willowy]

You... hate... Joss Whedon, Marti Noxon, David Fury, Jane Espenson, Tim Minear, Drew Goddard...

Really.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Willowy
Jane rules

[Cocogurl]

I love Xander, but I will admit that, of the core four, he is the one who gets on my nerves the most. Like a few others have stated, he can be callous and dismissive of other people's feelings and his hypocrisy always got on my nerves. I don't think he's a bad person, but he wasn't always a very good friend to Buffy.

[Halting Hex]

On 5/6/2017 at 12:24 AM, Perfect Xero said:

And Angel was an adult man who was hanging around a bunch of high school kids because he wanted to bone a 15 year old girl.

(OT for this thread, but as Murk says, it just called to me…)

That, sir, is unjustified slander! Sure, Angel "fell in love" with a 14/15-year-old girl without ever having spoken to her, or anything as mundane as that.  But it was over a year later before he took to "hanging around a bunch of high school kids", and Buffy was a totally-ripe 16 by then.  Legal in at least 30 of the 50 states.  (And most of the world.) 

Is it Angel's fault that California is such a prudish backwater, with their restrictive statutory rape laws?  Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly…240-year-olds gotta crush on girls 1/15 their age…

"Okay, at this point, you're abusing sarcasm."  (Well, yeah.  But it's so much fun.)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎07‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 7:32 PM, Cocogurl said:

I love Xander, but I will admit that, of the core four, he is the one who gets on my nerves the most. Like a few others have stated, he can be callous and dismissive of other people's feelings and his hypocrisy always got on my nerves. I don't think he's a bad person, but he wasn't always a very good friend to Buffy.

I don't think so, he was the core of the group and always tried to do the right thing despite lacking superpowers (his conversation with Dawn in Potential alone demonstrates that.  

[Halting Hex]

Technically, Dr. Gregory was a recurring character (he was in Witch before Natalie munched his head in Teacher's Pet), so Flutie wasn't quite the start of that tradition, even if you don't count Jesse.  (And, I'm not sure why you wouldn't.)

Riley and Dawn were also regulars who never "went evil".  (There's a misdirect with Riley at the end of The Yoko Factor and one with Dawn in No Place Like Home, but that's all they were.)  Oz was a menace on several occasions (werewolf and all), but never intentionally ill-intentioned.

And yes, while some have tried to make Xander/Spike comparisons, IMO the teensy difference is that Xander is non-hyena-possessed in 142/143 episodes, whereas Spike has a murderous, rapist demon inside of him in all 95 of his episodes on this series.  So that's 237 cases of Xander being better than Spike, his "attempt at wooing" that didn't include "a bottle of chianti and a Yanni CD" here, aside.  But JMO, as I say.

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Technically, Dr. Gregory was a recurring character (he was in Witch before Natalie munched his head in Teacher's Pet), so Flutie wasn't quite the start of that tradition, even if you don't count Jesse.  (And, I'm not sure why you wouldn't.)

Riley and Dawn were also regulars who never "went evil".  (There's a misdirect with Riley at the end of The Yoko Factor and one with Dawn in No Place Like Home, but that's all they were.)  Oz was a menace on several occasions (werewolf and all), but never intentionally ill-intentioned.

And yes, while some have tried to make Xander/Spike comparisons, IMO the teensy difference is that Xander is non-hyena-possessed in 142/143 episodes, whereas Spike has a murderous, rapist demon inside of him in all 95 of his episodes on this series.  So that's 237 cases of Xander being better than Spike, his "attempt at wooing" that didn't include "a bottle of chianti and a Yanni CD" here, aside.  But JMO, as I say.

True about Dr Gregory and Jesse but they hadn't been established as Flutie had.

Riley does go evil whilst under the effects of drug withdrawl and Dawn get's possessed at the beginning of season 6. 

[Spartan Girl]

On 7/6/2018 at 7:32 AM, Dee said:

How is Xander a 'dick'?

And what internalized jealousy did he supposedly have? Xander was largely over Buffy by the end of Season 2 imo.

Most of what I'd like to say has already been said.

But arguably his biggest dick moment of the episode was after he and Faith found Giles unconscious in the library, and even though Xander automatically too it was too obvious to be Angelus' work, he stiill snipes at Buffy about Angel "not being as cured as (she thought) when she finds out what happens.

And that is what I really dislike about Xander. No matter what the circumstance, he just can't stop himself from making his dumb jokes or snide remarks. He always has to have that last dig.

Spoiler

Not just with Buffy, but with Cordy and Anya too. Anya nailed it cold in season 6: he goes around telling stupid jokes and cutting comments all to hide the fact that he's a sad, scared, insecure little boy.

[Halting Hex]

Yeah, because Anya is such a model of decorum and restraint herself.  Pot, meet kettle.  And if Xander runs his mouth because of insecurity, what's the Bitch From (Literally) Hell's excuse?

Plus, you know, the whole "thousand years of slaughter" issue.  So I'm not really one to take Anya's word on as being the authority on Xander's moral character.  But JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Most of what I'd like to say has already been said.

But arguably his biggest dick moment of the episode was after he and Faith found Giles unconscious in the library, and even though Xander automatically too it was too obvious to be Angelus' work, he stiill snipes at Buffy about Angel "not being as cured as (she thought) when she finds out what happens.

And that is what I really dislike about Xander. No matter what the circumstance, he just can't stop himself from making his dumb jokes or snide remarks. He always has to have that last dig.

Spoiler

Not just with Buffy, but with Cordy and Anya too. Anya nailed it cold in season 6: he goes around telling stupid jokes and cutting comments all to hide the fact that he's a sad, scared, insecure little boy.

 

I think that's very true although that's just the way Xander handles things, just as Giles always keeps a stiff upper lip. Buffy is pretty flippant with her humour too?

13 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

  Hide contents

Yeah, because Anya is such a model of decorum and restraint herself.  Pot, meet kettle.  And if Xander runs his mouth because of insecurity, what's the Bitch From (Literally) Hell's excuse?

Plus, you know, the whole "thousand years of slaughter" issue.  So I'm not really one to take Anya's word on as being the authority on Xander's moral character.  But JMO.

Which is why maybe they were so perfect for one another?

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yeah, because Anya is such a model of decorum and restraint herself.  Pot, meet kettle.  And if Xander runs his mouth because of insecurity, what's the Bitch From (Literally) Hell's excuse?

Plus, you know, the whole "thousand years of slaughter" issue.  So I'm not really one to take Anya's word on as being the authority on Xander's moral character.  But JMO.

Anya's "thousands of years of slaughter"

didnt stop Xander from hooking up with her, nor did he really stop loving her even when she killed all those frat boys.

 Which really makes Xander a hypocrite, considering how he handled things in this episode, and he never really acknowledged that in later seasons. 

[Joe Hellandback]

43 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Anya's "thousands of years of slaughter"

  Hide contents

didnt stop Xander from hooking up with her, nor did he really stop loving her even when she killed all those frat boys.

 Which really makes Xander a hypocrite, considering how he handled things in this episode, and he never really acknowledged that in later seasons. 

He didn't hook up with her, he still cared for her just as Buffy couldn't kill Angelus in Innocence despite all the lives that cost. 

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

He didn't hook up with her, he still cared for her just as Buffy couldn't kill Angelus in Innocence despite all the lives that cost. 

I meant that he still hooked up with her at the beginning of her relationship knowing full well she had been a murdering vengeance demon. The murdering frat boys was a separate event long after they got together.

And the one time Buffy brought up that similarity between Anya and Angel after Anya killed those boys, Xander just dismissed it as "that's completely different." Yeah. Sure. Whatever. Hypocrite.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Spartan Girl
Edited for spoilers

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Most of what I'd like to say has already been said.

But arguably his biggest dick moment of the episode was after he and Faith found Giles unconscious in the library, and even though Xander automatically too it was too obvious to be Angelus' work, he stiill snipes at Buffy about Angel "not being as cured as (she thought) when she finds out what happens.

And that is what I really dislike about Xander. No matter what the circumstance, he just can't stop himself from making his dumb jokes or snide remarks. He always has to have that last dig. Not just with Buffy, but with Cordy and Anya too. Anya nailed it cold in season 6: he goes around telling stupid jokes and cutting comments all to hide the fact that he's a sad, scared, insecure little boy.

See below

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

All of this discussion ^ of a character who hasn't even appeared as of 3.07 should be completely spoilered, if I understand the current spoiler policy correctly.

  Hide contents

To quote The Sock Puppet of Love in Choices, "Who is this Anya?" Anybody trying to stay spoiler-free by only reading threads about the episodes they've seen as they move through the series should be respected; therefore Anya's very existence shouldn't be discussed unspoilered, no more than Riley's or Dawn's.  JMO.

Oh you're quite right, we should wait until then. 

[lembergwatcher]

Since watching the show for the first time back in 1998 it wasn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer herself, but her two original Slayerettes who had won my heart. Dunno, whether it was because of my own tendency to identify myself with nerdy, not-so-popular school types, or just because the actors had a chemistry together, but over the course of the series Willow and her best friend Xander continued to get most sympathy from me.

Though meant to be generally speaking the outsider of the Buffyverse, Xander, the guy with the goofy smile and an odd sense of humour, in fact was so much more than just a comic relief. From the moment he followed Buffy to the Master's lair in The Harvest until his desperate attempts to keep the Scooby flame burning in the final season, the character proved himself to be the epitome of a true friend and an unsung hero of the Buffyverse. Despite coming from a broken home, mediocre academic perfomance, no superpowers, lack of respect from classmates, teachers and sometimes even his own friends, being constantly ridiculed and underrated (why didn't you tell 'em 'bout Angelus in Killed by Death, Xand?), Xander didn't become angry or bitter. In spite of having millions of legitimate reasons to quit any time, he continued helping his friends, for he, not chosen and not destined himself, made a life choice to fight. He laughed in the face of danger and, regardless of having "no superpowers", survived for seven consecutive seasons. Just another proof that Xander Harris indeed wasn't that "ordinary" or "useless". He was loyal and modest - a characteristics that are hard to find in this day and age.

He had his highs and lows (just like everyone else in the series), annoyed yours truly on many occassions (just like everyone else), and writers did their best to perform character assassination on White Knight (making him share the bed with a hellbitch for 2,5 seasons and then turning into Dawnie's nanny/bodyguard closer to the finale among the few things), 'coz, you know, everymen are scum and vampires rule, but... if it wasn't for "the Zeppo" and his virtues, Buffy and others would have ended up dead and gone long ago. One might say that Xander's only achievement was to hold a steady job and he brought "nothing" to the fight (though rocket launcher from Innocence alone proves otherwise), but it was thanks to his resolve the world as we know it didn't come to a sad end in June 1997. Xander never really had a chance to step into spotlight for many-many reasons (others were chosen to take the spot by JW) and many in the fandom continue to hate him with a passion, but, like it or not, this guy was instrumental (key guy, remember?) in winning every big battle and saving the day - no less than Buffy or Willow. And if it wasn't for Xander's unconditional love, what else could literally bring our beloved Willow back in Becoming, Part 2, or discourage her from making the worst mistake of her life in Grave?..

Edited August 24, 2018 by lembergwatcher