Xander

[lembergwatcher]

On 5/22/2020 at 10:16 PM, Halting Hex said:

But yes, even though Xander drowned the Separvo demon and let the sun shine in on some Übies in the finale, and even used his X-Ray Vision to wallop Glory with a wrecking ball, I was speaking about vampire-slaying, specifically.

He dusted one vamp in Tabula Rasa if I remember correctly. 

[illdoc]

Didn't he slay Teresa in Phases? He used some stand at the funeral parlor. In fact, don't they show a clip of that as part of the opening theme music montage in Season 5?

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

He dusted one vamp in Tabula Rasa if I remember correctly. 

Yes, good catch.  I knew Xander was being heroic when "Alex", but I thought he was fighting demons, since I remembered the shark-demon.  But of course the henchvamps are vamps, and "Alex" dusted just as much as "Randy" and "Joan" did.  ("Rupie" and "Annya" were fighting demons, though.)

2 hours ago, illdoc said:

Didn't he slay Teresa in Phases? He used some stand at the funeral parlor. In fact, don't they show a clip of that as part of the opening theme music montage in Season 5?

Yes, I counted Theresa.   My argument was that, after Xander dusted Andy Hoehlich in 3.01, he was out of the vamp-slaying business, his previous triumphs in 1.02, 1.12, and 2.15 aside.  

As lemberg points out, that's not quite true; I forgot about TR.  (Has Willow been sending some Lethe's Bramble my way?  Huh.)  Are we annoyed that the only time Xander does any slaying in the final 109 episodes, he doesn't even know his own name?  Is this a way of saying that Xander is useless in his natural state, that you have to erase his mind for him to be a boon instead of a burden?  (Probably not; I'm just being cynical.)

[Halting Hex]

On 8/27/2018 at 6:49 PM, lembergwatcher said:

AVC: Did you try to explain to Nicholas Brendon that clearly you would have been the superior Xander?

The best part of Alex McLevy's interview of Danny Strong is probably his paraphrasing here of Buffy's assessment from the tag of The Pack. That's some nice dialogue recall there, Alex.  "Accept no substitutes" to continue with Buffy's sentiments.  Well done.

[lembergwatcher]

So there's a rumour about Joss approaching NB the other day, and giving him two options regarding his character: either terminating Xander or leaving him with no real character development throughout the rest of the series. If that's true, does anyone know how exactly did Whedon want to get rid of Xander back then? 

Also there's a rumour some Buffy writers wanted Xander gone thus abusing the guy time and again in different ways in their scripts. If that's accurate, who could it be (I mean, among the writers)?

[Perfect Xero]

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

So there's a rumour about Joss approaching NB the other day, and giving him two options regarding his character: either terminating Xander or leaving him with no real character development throughout the rest of the series. If that's true, does anyone know how exactly did Whedon want to get rid of Xander back then? 

Also there's a rumour some Buffy writers wanted Xander gone thus abusing the guy time and again in different ways in their scripts. If that's accurate, who could it be (I mean, among the writers)?

I don't know about anything recent being said about it, but back when NB was promoting his short lived sitcom, Kitchen Confidential with Bradley Cooper he said that Joss had approached him at some point near the end of Season 4 or 5 and told him that Xander was "done" and gave him the option to be written off the show or to stay on. This was in response to Cooper talking about leaving Alias because there wasn't anything left for his character to do.

The original interview might be lost but there's a discussion post about it here: http://whedonesque.com/comments/7651

Edited October 16, 2020 by Perfect Xero

[KatWay]

If they had wanted him off the show they could have just written him out, they did it with a ton of other characters. I took that statement to mean they could write him off now if NB wanted that, but he still got development after that. He matured, got a good job, had the whole Anya drama in S6, the Spuffy reaction, the Willow-saving...only S7 I think didn't use him as much but honestly S7 had issues using any of the characters aside from Buffy and Spike.

[illdoc]

Is this in relation to the talk/rumor that Xander (not Ben) was to be the alter ego of Glory? Which would probably had resulted in his death at the end of S5.

[KatWay]

2 hours ago, illdoc said:

Is this in relation to the talk/rumor that Xander (not Ben) was to be the alter ego of Glory? Which would probably had resulted in his death at the end of S5.

honestly might have made the storyline more interesting and given the whole "killing the vessel to kill Glory" thing more impact cause lbr nobody cared about Ben so Giles killing him was like...eh. Good choice.

[lembergwatcher]

On 10/16/2020 at 9:03 AM, KatWay said:

I took that statement to mean they could write him off now if NB wanted that, but he still got development after that. He matured, got a good job, had the whole Anya drama in S6, the Spuffy reaction, the Willow-saving...only S7 I think didn't use him as much but honestly S7 had issues using any of the characters aside from Buffy and Spike.

There is nothing even remotely mature in being involved with arrogant & annoying ex-demon. Seasons 4 - 7 Xander was much weaker character compared to Xander from the first three seasons (but then again that can be said about all main characters). Besides, as it was once pointed out in one of the threads here, Xander could've been totally removed from most episodes in the last four seasons without any serious changes in the plot or audience noticing....

Edited October 20, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

Seems like people sometimes do not know the meaning of the word "villain"

Is it just me, or is Xander the true villain of Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

https://www.gamesradar.com/xander-buffy-true-villain/
 

Quote

But am I alone in this, or is Xander actually the worst? He’s petty, jealous and irresponsible; he slut-shames the women in his life and treats them like garbage. As his friends become more powerful, Xander stagnates and is resentful of their success.

Honestly, I don't quite remember Xander "resenting his friends" because of their "success". Just like I find it hard to see the equation between "power" and "success" in case of the Buffyverse. In fact, I don't see how anything that happened to Xander's powerful friends or other characters (Buffy, Giles, Willow, Cordelia, Angel) post-high school can be viewed as a huge "success".
Can we count Buffy having the weight of the world on her shoulders, risking her life 24/7, losing her mother and having to become a parent to her younger sister with crappy jobs to pay the bills coming with the package, dying and then being ressurected against her will and fucking Spike to fill the void as a "success" Xander has to be jealous of?
Does Willow story arc with losing herself to magic addiction, having the "love of her life" taken away from her and nearly ending the world resemble "success" in any way, shape or form?
Does Giles becoming a sorry caricature of his former self look even remotely as "success"?
At least, Xander got the steady job and almost became a family man... If anything, he was in much better shape throughout, say, seasons 5 & 6 than Buffy and Willow. JMO though.

[Halting Hex]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:08 PM, lembergwatcher said:

At least, Xander got the steady job

At least Xander got out of De Basement of Debasement and found a lovely new apartment.

As opposed to…

…Willow continuing to live in the house where her girlfriend was murdered

…Giles continuing to sleep in the same fucking bed where Angel dumped (and possibly raped) Jenny's corpse

–Giles cheerfully babysitting Angel in the house where Angel tortured him

–Angel staying in a mansion that he may well have taken possession of through multiple homicides, including children.  (We don't know that Travis [the modern victim from Amends] was the owner of the "abandoned" mansion on Crawford Street, but it doesn't seem unlikely.)  Which is also the same place where he was run through with a sword and sent to (a) Hell.

You know, Joss, you are allowed to pay for new sets.  That's rather why you keep a Set Designer on the payroll, tbh.

[Fool to cry]

I think Xander needed a crying moment. I don't recall him ever crying or so much as tearing up. The only strong emotions he showed when he wasn't being funny was jealousy and anger. I don't know whether it was because Nicholas Brendan didn't have the range for it or they thought it would make Xander look weak but some display of vulnerability would have been nice. 

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

I don't recall him ever crying or so much as tearing up.

Good observation. Although I'm glad there were no waterworks from Xander. Tears are for "cool" characters like Spike.

I mean, Xander isn't even remotely cool: he doesn't have Giles' "superior intelect", Oz's rock star aura or Spike's badassery. OTOH no one saw him crying. This has to mean something, right? 

[Halting Hex]

I'm almost thinking Xander cried off-camera and Anya blabbed about it and Xander was embarrassed, or was that just fanfic?

Well, Tara never cries, either.  Maybe Xander's a Saint, too.  That whole "One Who Sees" deal could be about visions, right? 

[illdoc]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

I'm almost thinking Xander cried off-camera and Anya blabbed about it and Xander was embarrassed, or was that just fanfic?

During "The Body". While they waiting for Willow to find her blue sweater, Anya mentioned that Xander cried and Anya was embarrassed (at least, she said something like "he cried a while. It was embarrassing"). So, you didn't imagine it!

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, illdoc said:

Anya mentioned that Xander cried

That's just Anya saying something. I don't think she's a credible source. She likes to exaggerate things.

[secnarf]

4 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

That's just Anya saying something. I don't think she's a credible source. She likes to exaggerate things.

She mentioned it again in her "death is mortal and stupid" speech..."Xander's crying and not talking..."

IIRC, what she had said earlier was that Xander cried at the apartment, and "it was weird" but I could be wrong about that.

[MapleCourt]

[lembergwatcher]

Apart from the notorious bathroom scene Captain Peroxide is widely considered to be the God's gift to Buffy and the whole Buffyverse. Unfortunately.

[MythTaken]

Terrible character. A “nice guy” who never got called out for his actions, leading me to believe we were often meant to sympathise with him. Given he was created by Whedon and Whedon based Xander on himself, this makes sense. 

[Halting Hex]

A cute way to use Whedon's (relatively-)recently-revealed transgressions against an apparent unfavorite, but not historically accurate, as Joss has always maintained that all five of the original cast represented Aspects of his personality.

Buffy was the hero he envisioned himself as (or hoped to be) and "the Burden of Slayerhood" was an analog for the responsibilities Joss felt as the One Man in All the Studio who ultimately had to Make the Hard Choices to save the world show.

Xander was the wisecracking outsider he found himself as being reduced to.  Willow was the Nerd he was trying to outgrow.

Giles represented Whedon's time in England (and perhaps his seeing himself as the knowledgable one on the staff.)  Cordelia was his way of acknowledging that he could be a nasty self-involved diva every so often.  (Her insults, such as "who gave you permission to exist?" and "Why? Because you're boring" are sometimes things Whedon himself has said.)

They are all Joss's children, for better or for worse.  If Xander had been a specific self-insert, it is likely he would have fared far better than he did.

(See Piz from Veronica Mars and doubtless other examples.  JMO.)

 

Edited January 25 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

We have so called "champions" who literally got away with murder. Who killed lots and lots and lots of innocent people. Who nearly ended the world few times. Who provoked Senior Partners to unleash a demonic army on one of the biggest US cities... 

But, yeah, Xander never getting called out for... what exactly? Saying mean things about Angel or Saint Spikey? Or daring to disagree with General von Buffy? Yes, we know the true "villain" when we see one.

Edited January 25 by lembergwatcher

[MythTaken]

 

On 1/25/2024 at 1:45 AM, Halting Hex said:

A cute way to use Whedon's (relatively-)recently-revealed transgressions against an apparent unfavorite, but not historically accurate, as Joss has always maintained that all five of the original cast represented Aspects of his personality.

Buffy was the hero he envisioned himself as (or hoped to be) and "the Burden of Slayerhood" was an analog for the responsibilities Joss felt as the One Man in All the Studio who ultimately had to Make the Hard Choices to save the world show.

Xander was the wisecracking outsider he found himself as being reduced to.  Willow was the Nerd he was trying to outgrow.

Giles represented Whedon's time in England (and perhaps his seeing himself as the knowledgable one on the staff.)  Cordelia was his way of acknowledging that he could be a nasty self-involved diva every so often.  (Her insults, such as "who gave you permission to exist?" and "Why? Because you're boring" are sometimes things Whedon himself has said.)

They are all Joss's children, for better or for worse.  If Xander had been a specific self-insert, it is likely he would have fared far better than he did.

(See Piz from Veronica Mars and doubtless other examples.  JMO.)

 

This just confirms what I said. Xander was based on Whedon. I didn’t say he was the only character based on Whedon, or that Xander 100% represented Whedon’s personality. 
 

People here are very quick to be rude and belittle people for having an opinion. 

On 1/25/2024 at 11:46 PM, lembergwatcher said:

We have so called "champions" who literally got away with murder. Who killed lots and lots and lots of innocent people. Who nearly ended the world few times. Who provoked Senior Partners to unleash a demonic army on one of the biggest US cities... 

But, yeah, Xander never getting called out for... what exactly? Saying mean things about Angel or Saint Spikey? Or daring to disagree with General von Buffy? Yes, we know the true "villain" when we see one.

I said he was a terrible character and a “nice guy”. Why are you twisting that into the “true villain”?

So are we not allowed to call out Xander’s attitude and hypocrisy, because he wasn’t the worst person in the show? How does that make sense?

Xander was clearly not the worst person in the show. “Saint Spikey” easily had him beat. Do you know who else did? Anyanka. The horrific torturer and murderer, who Xander had no issue being with, despite all of the grief he gave Buffy over Angel. There’s nothing wrong with thinking he should’ve been called out for this hypocrisy. Buffy reminding him that she had to kill Angel in Selfless doesn’t cut it. 

Some fans need to accept different opinions, without being so rude about it. Xander is disliked by many. That doesn’t mean everyone is saying he’s the “true villain” or that he’s free from criticism, just because you like him. 
 

If this is what some fans are like these days, I can see why this forum isn’t popular. 
 

I’ll leave you guys to keep defending the sexist creep that is Xander. He’s obviously perfect and not allowed to be criticised!

Edited February 18 by MythTaken

[Halting Hex]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:55 PM, MythTaken said:

People here are very quick to be rude and belittle people for having an opinion. 

Literally nobody did that.  Until, perhaps…

On 2/17/2024 at 8:55 PM, MythTaken said:

If this is what some fans are like these days, I can see why this forum isn’t popular. 
 

I’ll leave you guys to keep defending the sexist creep that is Xander.

"Nuff said!  I propose Buffy slays—"  well, no, that would probably be an overreaction.  Chill, Buffster, chill.

(I would ask when Xander was a "sexist creep", exactly, but…)

[MythTaken]

On 2/23/2024 at 2:24 AM, Halting Hex said:

Literally nobody did that.  Until, perhaps…

"Nuff said!  I propose Buffy slays—"  well, no, that would probably be an overreaction.  Chill, Buffster, chill.

(I would ask when Xander was a "sexist creep", exactly, but…)

 

Please. The opening of your first line was patronising and belittling. You know exactly what you were doing and lembergwatcher actually tried insinuating that I am one of the people who sees Xander as the “true villain” of the show. It’s incredibly obvious that you 2 don’t like anyone saying negative things about creepy sexist Xander. 

Other posters have pointed out Xander’s sexism and you responded afterwards. His fans tend to defend or downplay his actions though, such as him acting entitled and creepy towards Buffy, or putting the blame on her for Riley’s actions in S5. Then there’s him slut-shaming, which is apparently acceptable and “not a big deal”, as I’ve seen his fans say.
 

When posters have to compare a character to a murderous vampire in order to make him look decent, he isn’t that decent. He’s just better than a murderer. 

Edited February 26 by MythTaken

[Halting Hex]

On 2/25/2024 at 8:39 PM, MythTaken said:

Please. The opening of your first line was patronising and belittling.

Say what?  That's a heck of a reaction to "A cute way".  Would you prefer I had said "clever"?  "Sly"? "Sneaky"? "Ingenious"? 

Literally all I intended was to praise your creativity (in trying to tie your condemnation of Xander to Whedon's less-pleasant character traits) while stating that your conclusion was inaccurate, and you were perhaps using your creative skills to obfuscate the issue.  I'm allowed to disagree with you, and I know that you know that.

I honestly don't feel you have grounds for umbrage here, and I'm a bit put off by what I feel is a personal attack on me.  I wish you wouldn't do that.  I feel it lowers the tone unnecessarily.  JMO.

Other posters have pointed out Xander’s sexism and you responded afterwards.

  Not actually true, as far as I can see.  I just went through the entire thread and while X certainly takes his share of brickbats, it seems to be more about his dating choices and conduct in relationships than a general "sexism".  

If you can cite specific posts (and my responses), feel free.

On 2/25/2024 at 8:39 PM, MythTaken said:

When posters have to compare a character to a murderous vampire in order to make him look decent,

This charge, OTOH, was made a decade ago (I'm…so…old…), back on page 1.  However, a closer look at the posts showed that it was an anti-Xander poster who first compared him with Angel and/or Spike, so not actually "defending" Xander, after all.

Edited February 28 by Halting Hex