Indian Summers - General Discussion

[proserpina65]

My first thought was he officers ddint want to find that letter in an Indian residence bc they were indian too, but who knows.

 

They were an entirely different kind of Indian though (Sikh, if I'm not mistaken) and owed their position of authority to the British government.  They'd be unlikely to cover for someone from the Parsee community.  Native society in India was (and still is) very segmented and regimented in structure, particularly by religion and ethnic origin, something which was greatly encouraged by the British.

[Milz]

So Alice is a creepy stalker chick, spying on Aafrin and his girlfriend while they make out in a cemetery, because Alice so badly wants to do the horizontal Lindy Hop with him.

 

Adam's mama is a creepy stalker stalking the orphanage because she wants her son back.

 

Sarah is a creepy stalker because she gets her sister in England to snoop into Alice's background because she wants Alice to be her BFF.

 

Speaking of creepy BFFs, I think we've witnessed the start of Ralphie's creepy bromance with Aafrin.

[Kitla]

They were an entirely different kind of Indian though (Sikh, if I'm not mistaken) and owed their position of authority to the British government.  They'd be unlikely to cover for someone from the Parsee community.  Native society in India was (and still is) very segmented and regimented in structure, particularly by religion and ethnic origin, something which was greatly encouraged by the British.

There were actually many Sikhs involved in the Indian Independence campaign.

[JudyObscure]

I think maybe Ralph was given the letter and told Aafrin had it but he knows Aafrin could tell the truth about what the assassin said as well as the fact that Ralph didn't show any interest in his welfare until after the reporter came to town. I think it's mainly a keep-your-enemies-closer thing. Nothing Ralph does is straight forward. After all he just proposed to Madeline, after losing all real interest in her. I feel very sorry for her, "Maybe I like it!" "He's an orphan." She has it bad and I totally understand.

Sarah and Alice both talk without moving their lips, we can't see Dougie's lips for the forest, and they all talk so fast that closed caption can't keep up with them. Something like, "I know you have a husband." "So what bitch?" I guess.

I do think it's interesting that Alice evidently fell passionately in love with Aafrin during their near death moment. Nothing like adrenaline to speed up the love connection -- I learned that from The Bachelor and all it's bungie jumping dates.

Julie Walters has made her character so despicable, I can barely stand to watch her scenes.

[magdalene]

 

Julie Walters has made her character so despicable, I can barely stand to watch her scenes.

Yes. Ralph has some layers but Cynthia so far only has one - EEEEVIL.

[Milz]

I think maybe Ralph was given the letter and told Aafrin had it but he knows Aafrin could tell the truth about what the assassin said as well as the fact that Ralph didn't show any interest in his welfare until after the reporter came to town. I think it's mainly a keep-your-enemies-closer thing. Nothing Ralph does is straight forward. After all he just proposed to Madeline, after losing all real interest in her. I feel very sorry for her, "Maybe I like it!" "He's an orphan." She has it bad and I totally understand.

Sarah and Alice both talk without moving their lips, we can't see Dougie's lips for the forest, and they all talk so fast that closed caption can't keep up with them. Something like, "I know you have a husband." "So what bitch?" I guess.

I do think it's interesting that Alice evidently fell passionately in love with Aafrin during their near death moment. Nothing like adrenaline to speed up the love connection -- I learned that from The Bachelor and all it's bungie jumping dates.

Julie Walters has made her character so despicable, I can barely stand to watch her scenes.

 

heh!

 

I have a feeling that Madeline's oil tycoon father is broke or close to broke, that's why she was game to bang Ralphie every chance she got.

 

Also, it seem like the only person with the resources to do a background check is Sarah.

[pasdetrois]

All through the recent broadcasts of old Masterpiece productions - Forsyte, JiC - I was not aware of the Masterpiece forum. After viewing Indian Summers and Home Fires, I searched again and finally found it. (I was searching under each series' individual title, and my PC has some Internet security programs that inhibit things like search functions.)

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying the production aspects  - the divine textiles, the lush scenery, the house porn, the fashions. But it is hard to watch the thoughtless cruel superiority of the British colonists.

 

Julie Waters is a fantastic actress, but I find her performance off here. A bit too Broadway or vaudeville, or something.

 

Agree that the Ralph actor is a young Ralph Fiennes. Is it correct that the "terrorist" - the older gentleman whom they imprisoned - put Adam on the train tracks, knowing who was on that particular train, and anticipating the kid would get rescued? But who poisoned Adam?

 

I've got the Merle Oberon story in my head - she was an English actress who hid the fact that she was of Indian ancestry. Is it possible that Ralph is somehow not 100% English? I know that sounds implausible, but his scene with the terrorist, who twisted Ralph's hair and then beat an unresistant Ralph - doesn't bring to mind a reaction to something like rape or an "improper" sexual relationship history. Or, maybe he did have a relationship with Adam's mother, and she died as the result of childbirth, with him failing to help her because she was not white.

[attica]

I think maybe Ralph was given the letter and told Aafrin had it but he knows Aafrin could tell the truth about what the assassin said

 

No, Ralph was told the search was unsuccessful, which he told Aafrin. Plus, we saw Affy's dad with the certificate (and Sita with Affy's note).

 

I'm always happy to see Patrick Malahyde, the viceroy. He does Patrician Entitlement Evil as well as anyone ever.

[JudyObscure]

Thanks, Attica.  Even after two viewings I remained confused. 

 

Glad you found us, Pasdetrois!   I love all things Masterpiece but obviously  need lots of help to follow some of it.

[proserpina65]

There were actually many Sikhs involved in the Indian Independence campaign.

I bow to your knowledge of Indian history.  My own is cursery at best.

[proserpina65]

Quote

I think maybe Ralph was given the letter and told Aafrin had it but he knows Aafrin could tell the truth about what the assassin said

 

No, Ralph was told the search was unsuccessful, which he told Aafrin. Plus, we saw Affy's dad with the certificate (and Sita with Affy's note).

 

Ralph told Aafrin that the search was unsuccessful, but I didn't hear anyone tell Ralph that; we saw a conversation but did not hear what was said.  And I didn't see Aafrin's father with the certificate - I thought I saw the Sikh officer who was in charge of searching Aafrin's residence find it.  Nor did I see Sita actually deliver the note to Aafrin's sister onscreen, so I'm assuming his family did not receive his warning.

 

Edited October 20, 2015 by proserpina65

[AuntiePam]

What Proserpina said.  We saw Sita turn away from the door and we didn't see anyone in Affy's family get the certificate from the box -- we saw the searcher discover a piece of paper, presumably the certificate.  If it turns out that we were misdirected, I'll be upset. 

[skyways]

Yes the note was found but the soldier told Ralph it was not. I'm assuming Aafrin thinks his sister got it in time? I think that fact comes into play later. The whole Aafrin/Alice thing is sort of confusing to me. On one hand Aafrin appears uncomfortable (and rightfully so) when the colonials are talking about their glorious pasts against savage natives and he had to listen to all that, and doesn't appear offended when he's laughed at. And on the other hand he loooves things British. He's what we call a 'sabo' - one who loves his oppressor and will do anything to belong while unwittingly working against his own interest. He loves a native girl and wants to marry her and on the other hand he's sniffing Alice's scarf (I hated that last scene of him doing that. It's what mentally unhinged people do which I'm not saying he is).

I'm just confused about his progression and obviously budding pairing with Alice. Where does Aafrin belong? To me he looks like Ralph's brother from another mother.

 

Just for disclosure - I have seen this series before but don't expect me to ruin anything! I didn't understand it the first time around. But just to clarify to Auntiepam, you were not misdirected. The soldier did find the note and I think something happens with this.

Edited October 20, 2015 by skyways

[Mrs Shibbles]

Angry, scowling & utterly vile racist Cynthia thinks it's Sood's fault Armitage is a vegetable when Armitage is the one who attacked Sood in full view of everyone? Cynthia, you totally suck, get lost. It's all different for these characters without that foul woman around I'll be saying the whole run I bet.  

 

I took that as her manipulating Armitage's nephew.

 

Is it possible that Ralph is somehow not 100% English? I know that sounds implausible, but his scene with the terrorist, who twisted Ralph's hair and then beat an unresistant Ralph - doesn't bring to mind a reaction to something like rape or an "improper" sexual relationship history. Or, maybe he did have a relationship with Adam's mother, and she died as the result of childbirth, with him failing to help her because she was not white.

 

Adam runs into his mother at the end of the episode outside of the orphanage.

 

The idea of Ralph not being 100% English is interesting.  He does have darker hair and eyes than his sister.    Madeline referred to him needing her because he is an orphan, which is odd for an adult, but there may be more there.

[Milz]

Ralphie's brother from another mother  Y'all are cracking me up today!

 

What we do know is that Alice was sent home at age 8. Ralphie was not and stayed in India with their parents. That's very unusual because children were sent home to be educated in England---at least for university.

[Diffy]

Ralphie's brother from another mother  Y'all are cracking me up today!

 

What we do know is that Alice was sent home at age 8. Ralphie was not and stayed in India with their parents. That's very unusual because children were sent home to be educated in England---at least for university.

 

Very unusual indeed.  Distinctly anachronistic. In that time, place, and definitely in that class, children were almost invariably sent back to England to be educated.  They were sent very young - seven or eight or even younger.  Actually, that was still true through the 60s and 70s in my experience.

 

I missed why people assume Ralph was educated in India and not in England.  In fact, the script this episode strongly implies that Ralph was indeed sent back to England to boarding school. There is an awkward conversation about boarding schools between Sarah and Alice over tea.  Sarah wants Alice to tell Matthew that boarding school was wonderful because she is pushing to send him to one.

 

Not verbatim: Alice says that she didn't like boarding school and missed her parents.  Sarah then says something like: but at least you had your brother?  Alice says: only in the holidays.  That would make sense as they would have been sent to different boarding schools and lived with family or guardians in the school holidays. 

[skyways]

Ralph's accent alone suggests he was educated in England. Otherwise he would be speaking like Aafrin.

Edited October 20, 2015 by skyways

[Kitla]

What Proserpina said.  We saw Sita turn away from the door and we didn't see anyone in Affy's family get the certificate from the box -- we saw the searcher discover a piece of paper, presumably the certificate.  If it turns out that we were misdirected, I'll be upset. 

Yes, this is what I saw, too.  We also saw Sita looking at the note later, when she's lying in her (surprisingly luxurious-looking ... as in,  nicer than a lot of Indian hotels I've stayed in) bedroom.  I think the policeman found the certificate and whether he really stayed mum about that (for political reasons?) or whether Ralph is "playing" Aafrin remains to be seen.  Aafrin obviously thinks the note was successfully delivered because we see him looking very relieved as he's sniffing the scarf he recognized as Alice's, which she dropped when she was spying on him and Sita.  It will be interesting to see the "WTF?" look on Sooni's face when he tells her he's relieved she got the note and destroyed the certificate.  If Aafrin dumps Sita for Alice, will Sita use the note to blackmail him?  Ah, the soap opera plot thickens.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Kitla

[magdalene]

I keep thinking how all these entitled English people in India have a bad awakening coming when it all ends.  They got used to a life style - all these servants for one family! - that most of them won't be able to maintain in England.  And my heart is not bleeding for them.

[proserpina65]

Very unusual indeed.  Distinctly anachronistic. In that time, place, and definitely in that class, children were almost invariably sent back to England to be educated.  They were sent very young - seven or eight or even younger.  Actually, that was still true through the 60s and 70s in my experience.

 

I missed why people assume Ralph was educated in India and not in England.  In fact, the script this episode strongly implies that Ralph was indeed sent back to England to boarding school. There is an awkward conversation about boarding schools between Sarah and Alice over tea.  Sarah wants Alice to tell Matthew that boarding school was wonderful because she is pushing to send him to one.

 

Not verbatim: Alice says that she didn't like boarding school and missed her parents.  Sarah then says something like: but at least you had your brother?  Alice says: only in the holidays.  That would make sense as they would have been sent to different boarding schools and lived with family or guardians in the school holidays. 

I made that assumption based on something someone said in the first episode, but can't remember what it was.  And from reading about children sent home for education - they sometimes lodged together with families who took in such children as a means of earning income.  I forgot about the single-sex boarding school alternative.  But yes, during the conversation with Sarah and her husband, Alice definitely mentioned seeing her brother during the holidays, so they must've both been in England but at different boarding schools.

Ralph's accent alone suggests he was educated in England. Otherwise he would be speaking like Aafrin.

Not likely.  He would've been surrounded by other English people of the same class as his parents, and would've grown up speaking like them, unless the parents died when he was quite young.  He was, what, thirteen?, when Alice was sent to a boarding school; he'd spent enough time with English parents to sound like them.

[ComeWhatMay]

I have a feeling that Madeline's oil tycoon father is broke or close to broke, that's why she was game to bang Ralphie every chance she got.

Yes. For all Eugene's blustering about what a "high prize" his sister is, it doesn't compute. I keep thinking that if their family's money survived the Crash, someone would have snagged Madeleine by now to help shore up or restore their fortunes in the US. Finding Madeleine a husband in British India feels more like a fresh start for her where she maintains her dignity rather than live with much reduced circumstances at home. 

 

Love the casting here, but it's interesting how different in appearance HLH & JW are & yet were chosen to play brother & sister. Given the intentional incestuous vibe, makes me wonder if that was deliberate & not it's just TV so it doesn't matter thinking on the part of the showrunners. Ralph's family has been in India a long time. I do think Ralph is baby daddy to Adam & his mother.  

 

Ralph is calculating & vulnerable in equal measure & I don't think he just abandoned them without a thought. I don't think it would fit with the person they are trying to put out there. Loved how HLH shut his eyes when the drunk Viceroy -- who earlier addressed Ralph as Garrad (sp?) (the Viceroy's son lost in WWI) -- told Ralph he was a good man & said Ralph reminded him of Ralph's father. Ralph asking Aafrin if he should marry Madeleine? I did think to myself where else could Ralph go for advice really. Coffin? Er, no. Ralph's now in a bed he made sure, but how very lonely. I do feel for him & I think I'm supposed to rather than see him as a straight up villain.

When they all must give up the posh life for more humble circumstances in England or what have you with India's independence? No.

[izabella]

Ralph asking Aafrin if he should marry Madeleine? I did think to myself where else could Ralph go for advice really.

 

 

Ralph and his sister seem to be close, so I'd think he could go to her with a question like that.  Especially since she would know Madeleine as a woman, and why a woman might go to India to marry if she's such a catch, and could give him some insight.

[editorgrrl]

I made that assumption based on something someone said in the first episode, but can't remember what it was. And from reading about children sent home for education—they sometimes lodged together with families who took in such children as a means of earning income. I forgot about the single-sex boarding school alternative.

In the first episode, Alice said she was sent to boarding school when she was eight and Ralph was thirteen. She never saw her parents again, and spent holidays with a great aunt in Frinton-on-Sea. (But she also said her husband was dead, so you can't necessarily trust her.)

Cynthia reminded Alice that they knew each other when Alice's father was a district officer in Pune. Maybe Aafrin knew Alice back then, too? In episode 4, Aafrin says his family is from Bombay.

[dcalley]

I want to know why Aafrin didn't burn that damn piece of paper as soon as he got it home. It was apparently a good enough forgery, so having it wasn't good for anything except proving that he stole it.

 

I was sure that Ralph knew about the police finding the certificate. However, the official PBS synopsis says, "The Sikh sergeant soon finds the concealed paper and removes it. Oddly enough, when the police superintendent makes his report to Ralph, he says that no document turned up. Aafrin overhears this and assumes that his accomplices were successful." I'm going to stick with my first impression and assume that the writer is merely relating what appears to have taken place rather than what did take place. For what it's worth, all I heard of the conversation was Ralph saying "damn," which could be a reaction to the certificate not being found or to whose place had it.

 

 

Cynthia reminded Alice that they knew each other when Alice's father was a district officer in Pune. Maybe Aafrin knew Alice back then, too? In episode 4, Aafrin says his family is from Bombay.

I don't know why, but for some reason, I've always felt that Aafrin and Alice did know each other as children.

[pasdetrois]

What was the black thing on Aafrin's plate at the posh dinner? Alice told him not to eat it. I think the servant put it there intentionally, to punish Aafrin for sitting at the table with the big shots.

 

Heartbreaker: Aafrin so proud of his new suit, only to be made fun of because he's not in white tie.

Edited October 22, 2015 by pasdetrois

[editorgrrl]

What was the black thing on Aafrin's plate at the posh dinner? Alice told him not to eat it. I think the servant put it there intentionally, to punish Aafrin for sitting at the table with the big shots.

They were eating the game birds we earlier saw Ralph and the viceroy plucking. The black thing was a piece of shot, and I thought Alice warned Aafrin because he might've mistaken it for a peppercorn or allspice.

As for the forged document, maybe the Sikh sergeant kept or destroyed it. Maybe his boss did, or the superintendent who reported to Ralph. Aafrin should have destroyed it in the first place—either it's going to resurface, or the whole point was to let Alice know what happened.

All I heard of the conversation [with the superintendent] was Ralph saying "damn," which could be a reaction to the certificate not being found or to [where it was found].

Me, too.

Edited October 22, 2015 by editorgrrl

[editorgrrl]

Sarah and Alice both talk without moving their lips, we can't see Dougie's lips for the forest, and they all talk so fast that closed caption can't keep up with them. Something like, "I know you have a husband." "So what bitch?" I guess.

In episode 3 (both broadcast and On Demand), PBS bleeped an entire line of dialogue. Alice and Leena were walking past the cemetery:

Alice: Tell me, where do the children come from?

Leena: Most are left with the church as babies, and the church brings them to us.

Alice: They're orphans?

Leena: No, they have mixed blood. And so no place, no family.

During the awkward silence, the camera is at their backs—but it's obvious that Leena is speaking. The camera cuts to their faces and Alice turns to look at Leena, who says the next line.

I could tell something was wrong, so I rewound and turned on the closed captions, in case it was just a glitch in my cable reception. The line is missing in the captions, but I Googled and found a transcript.

I know PBS edits all their UK shows, but this was glaringly obvious—and changes the viewers' understanding of what's going on.

Edited October 22, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Diffy]

PBS's editing choices have always flummoxed me, but editing out "mixed blood" for an American audience seems really ridiculous and obscures the story line unacceptably.

 

I thought Ralph asking Aafrin about marriage was very strange and uncomfortable.  Almost like a twist on a life debt; you saved my life so now I'm going to make you responsible for all my actions going forward?  Weird, but Ralph is rather weird.

 

 

[Milz]

Episode 1 when Alice arrives at the house,

 

Ralphie: What happened to my sister?

Alice: Grew up, so I'm told.

Ralphie: Well, someone  should have warned me.

 

And Alice and Sarah at the party

Sarah: Private Secretary to Lord Willingdon. You must be proud.

Alice: Well, I haven't seen him in a long time.

Sarah: And how old were you when you left India? do you mind my asking?

Alice: When I was sent back to England? No I don't mind you asking. I was eight.

Sarah: And Ralphie would have been...

Alice: Just 13.

 

then Alice goes on about spending holidays with an aunt and never seeing her parents again.

 

From those two pieces of background, I got the feeling that Ralph and Alice hadn't seen each other in years. And it was Alice who was sent to home, not Ralph.

[Diffy]

We are probably spending much more time thinking about Ralph's educational background than the writers ever did. :)  I'm disappointed with Indian Summers so far, although it is supposed to get better.  I think it is slap-dash and anachronistic and I'm beginning to lose patience with it.

 

It doesn't make sense historically for Ralph not to have been educated in England, especially as he is supposed to be a high ranking official in the Indian Civil Service.  Private secretary to the Viceroy?

 

Socially, he's at the very top of the heap in a very class conscious society.  He would have been sent back to England as a small child and gone to a top public school (in the British meaning of public school), so Eton or somewhere like that.  Then university.  Then he had to take the Civil Service exam, which I think was only administered in the UK in those days.  Then back to India at 21 or 22 years old.  So if he is 30 now than he wouldn't have seen his sister for about 9 years as she stayed in England and got married. Nine years is quite a long time.

 

Didn't Ralph say in the first episode that he'd rather die than "go back" to England.  That implies that he has been there.  He must have really hated boarding school!   Of course, it could just be sloppy attention to detail by the writers.  It's just as unrealistic that Ralph would be on the short-list for the next Viceroy when he is only 30.

 

If Ralphie isn't Adam's father then I'll eat my hat.  That is the most predictable thing about this show at the moment. Perhaps the hold the vile Mrs Coffin has over him is that she knows all about it. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Diffy

[Kitla]

What Diffy said (above).

 

I will probably keep watching this show (at least for a while) but its inaccuracy, superficiality, and soap-opera-ishness are grating on me.  The idea that Ralph, who is only 30 and seems pretty callow to boot, is on the shortlist to be the next Viceroy is beyond stupid and the idea that someone like Cynthia Coffin would have the slightest influence on the selection is even  worse.  The Viceroys were invariably peers with many decades of high level service to "The Empire" under their belt.  Ralph seems marginal even as a candidate for provincial Deputy Commissioner. 

 

And I know this is trivial, but it even bugs me that the vegetation doesn't look like the real Simla (now called Shimla), which is NOT tropical and jungle-y.  It has pines and deodar cedars and oaks and rhodonendrons, not banana plants.  It SNOWS in the winter.  They filmed in Malaysia because they said they wanted more intact colonial era architecture than would have been available in the real Shimla, but they could have found more Simla-appropriate vegetation in Colorado than Malaysia and since the only "colonial era buildings" they're using are the (1) Viceregal Lodge, which looks nothing like the actual pseudo-Gothic pile in Shimla, (2) Ralph's mansion, which could be anywhere, including the South of France, and (3) the Club, which could also be anywhere and which apparently had to be completely reconstructed anyway, I don't know why they didn't just shoot on sound stages with location shots just CGI'd in (as the distant hills and mountains are).  But I guess I can suspend my disbelief the way I did when watching Justified, which was filmed in Southern California, which, needless to say, looks nothing like Kentucky.

 

This show is not a patch on The Jewel in the Crown.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Kitla

[proserpina65]

This show is not a patch on The Jewel in the Crown.

 

That, I agree with 100%.

[Constantinople]

I don't think Alice's married name has been mentioned once.  Everyone always refers to her as Alice Whelan or Miss Whelan.

 

That's extremely odd.

 

Since when do "widows" or married women of her time, place and class go by their maiden names?

 

I'm not suggesting Alice isn't married.  The only question is whether her husband is alive or dead.  Either way, Alice would be Mrs SoAndSo.  If by some odd chance her husband was a Whelan, she would be Mrs. Whelan, not Miss Whelan.

[Kitla]

I don't think Alice's married name has been mentioned once.  Everyone always refers to her as Alice Whelan or Miss Whelan.

 

That's extremely odd.

 

Since when do "widows" or married women of her time, place and class go by their maiden names?

 

I'm not suggesting Alice isn't married.  The only question is whether her husband is alive or dead.  Either way, Alice would be Mrs SoAndSo.  If by some odd chance her husband was a Whelan, she would be Mrs. Whelan, not Miss Whelan.

 

Indeed.  I wondered about that, too.

[Milz]

I agree with the comments about using the maiden name of a widow. Even divorced women went by their ex-husband's surname. Wallis Simpson was Mrs. Simpson after her divorce, she didn't revert to Wallis Warfield.

 

And I know this is trivial, but it even bugs me that the vegetation doesn't look like the real Simla (now called Shimla), which is NOT tropical and jungle-y.  It has pines and deodar cedars and oaks and rhodonendrons, not banana plants.  It SNOWS in the winter.  They filmed in Malaysia because they said they wanted more intact colonial era architecture than would have been available in the real Shimla, but they could have found more Simla-appropriate vegetation in Colorado than Malaysia and since the only "colonial era buildings" they're using are the (1) Viceregal Lodge, which looks nothing like the actual pseudo-Gothic pile in Shimla, (2) Ralph's mansion, which could be anywhere, including the South of France, and (3) the Club, which could also be anywhere and which apparently had to be completely reconstructed anyway, I don't know why they didn't just shoot on sound stages with location shots just CGI'd in (as the distant hills and mountains are).  But I guess I can suspend my disbelief the way I did when watching Justified, which was filmed in Southern California, which, needless to say, looks nothing like Kentucky.

 

Thankfully Mercy Street (a Civil War medical drama airing on PBS in January) is filmed in Virginia. But they can completely screw up on the "Southern accent" the actors/actresses will/won't have.

[Constantinople]

It doesn't make sense historically for Ralph not to have been educated in England, especially as he is supposed to be a high ranking official in the Indian Civil Service.  Private secretary to the Viceroy?

 

Socially, he's at the very top of the heap in a very class conscious society.  He would have been sent back to England as a small child and gone to a top public school (in the British meaning of public school), so Eton or somewhere like that.

I hope the writer has a sense of humor and we find out Ralph attended Chillingborough.

[LaChavalina]

I think one of the problems with how this show plays in the U.S. is that it assumes a level of familiarity with Indian history/society that even most educated Americans lack. I believe the bit with Aafrin and the bird at dinner was meant to highlight the fact that he was ignorant about what shot would look like, because if his family ate meat at all they had likely only eaten animals killed in accordance with Zoroastrian tradition. It's one of a couple of places in the series where we've seen the extent to which the English disregard his religion or treat it as backwards. Likewise in a previous episode, where the British doctor referred to Aafrin's sacred garment as a "dirty undershirt."

[editorgrrl]

I think one of the problems with how this show plays in the U.S. is that it assumes a level of familiarity with Indian history/society that even most educated Americans lack.

That's why we need an Alistair Cooke! I'm so grateful for PTV posters like you—and the internet. I'm always checking Wikipedia and IMDB while watching Masterpiece.

I often wonder if my confusion about things like Ralph's education is because as an American I miss subtle references and/or if PBS has edited out something important.

[lucindabelle]

Wait so nobody actually researched whether Madeline had a fortune or not? Seriously? I mean it was easy for Sarah to find out about Alice, and nobody cabled any friends in America?

Please.

How does Sita think she's going to keep up this charade? Why did she do that? What did she think would happen had they not gotten, it see,s lucky?

Why wouldn't the untouchable guy eat at dinner?

Looks from previews as though Raphie does love the mother after all, even though in the moment he looked like he was going to kill her.

[magdalene]

The show looked extra gorgeous tonight.   Ralph's and Madeline's costumes were beautiful - Ralph just needed some red-heeled shoes - and of course the height of irony.  There is so much ugliness under the surface here.  I find the Indian caste system just as ugly as the institutionalized racism of the British in India. Madeline not knowing that her family has no longer any money - her own brother basically pimping her out to Ralph all along. I bet Cynthia will push Ralph to get rid of Madeline.  How beautiful Leena - spelling? - looked during her brief appearance at the party.

[JudyObscure]

The show looked extra gorgeous tonight.

 

Every time they show Dougie's and Sarah's garden I have to freeze the screen for a minute, it's such a beautiful view.  Leena always looks stunning and she wore the right dress for the party but, call me tacky, I thought she was most beautiful in the pink and red number the children made for her.

 

How could Madeline's brother, or anyone, be stupid enough to confide important information to the Cynthia?  I want Madeline to be happy, I find her kind of heart breaking.

 

So Sarah plans to use her information for many little black mail schemes.  I can't hate her, she's too wacko to hate, but her childish games will probably bring disaster to someone.

 

Let the kissing begin!  I was glad to see Alice and Aafrin finally give in, now we should have some very interesting drama.

Why wouldn't the untouchable guy eat at dinner?

Most Hindus are vegetarian, so I expect that gruesome looking prawn was off limits.  How typical of that place and time, to have a big dinner with guests of many different religions, and not have vegetarian offerings at every course.

Edited October 26, 2015 by JudyObscure

[Milz]

The biggest WTF moment for me was why Ralphie and Madeleine were the only ones in fancy dress during their engagement party.  Anyhow, I don't expect that engagement to proceed to the next step.

 

Anyhow, using Jewel In the Crown as my reference for the Raj, the cultural insensitivity shown is probably 21st century revisionism. The Brits have been in India for at least 100 years. They know of the different cultures and traditions of the various Indian ethnic and religious groups. So if they intentionally served a Hindu beef or a Muslim pork, they were being asshats. What being asshats would accomplish within the context of trying to get support against the Congress forces me to suspend reality even more that it already is.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Milz

[Pickles]

I was surprised Madeline's brother revealed at the engagement party that they are not sitting on a fortune. But, I suppose it would have come out when the father would not be footing the bill for the wedding?

[Milz]

I was surprised Madeline's brother revealed at the engagement party that they are not sitting on a fortune. But, I suppose it would have come out when the father would not be footing the bill for the wedding?

 

I think they have money, but not the piles and piles of money they had. If they were  flat broke, they wouldn't have the dough to travel to India.

[Kitla]

 

Most Hindus are vegetarian, so I expect that gruesome looking prawn was off limits.  How typical of that place and time, to have a big dinner with guests of many different religions, and not have vegetarian offerings at every course.

 

Actually, most Hindus are NOT vegetarians, even if they don't eat beef.  Vegetarianism is commonest among higher caste Hindus, predominantly Brahmins, but the majority of Hindus - about 60% - eat meat and seafood, even those, as I said, who avoid beef.  Ironically, Dalits are one group of Hindus who actually do even eat beef (and pretty much anything else that's humanly consumable) and we also didn't see any of the other Indian guests having a problem with what was served (although prawns in Simla in the summer is a dish *I* wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole), so what the writers were trying to show with this scene with the Dalit guy is beyond me.  I'm certainly not looking to this show for cultural or historical accuracy because the writers seem to be complete ignoramuses.

 

 

 

The biggest WTF moment for me was why Ralphie and Madeleine were the only ones in fancy dress during their engagement party.

 

I also thought that was weird and even ridiculous.  What was the point?  I'm increasingly thinking the writers need to put down the crack pipe.

[proserpina65]

Props to those of you who posited that Madeline and her brother did not have money.

 

But yeah, there's all kinds of inappropriateness between Ralph and Alice.  Even Madeline thought the curling-lock-of-hair-around-finger was too intimate for siblings.

 

It does look like Ralph is Adam's father, but I wonder if maybe we're being misled and it's the Viceroy instead.  He did say he first met Ralph in Madras.

[proserpina65]

Actually, most Hindus are NOT vegetarians, even if they don't eat beef.  Vegetarianism is commonest among higher caste Hindus, predominantly Brahmins, but the majority of Hindus - about 60% - eat meat and seafood, even those, as I said, who avoid beef.  Ironically, Dalits are one group of Hindus who actually do even eat beef (and pretty much anything else that's humanly consumable) and we also didn't see any of the other Indian guests having a problem with what was served (although prawns in Simla in the summer is a dish *I* wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole), so what the writers were trying to show with this scene with the Dalit guy is beyond me.  I'm certainly not looking to this show for cultural or historical accuracy because the writers seem to be complete ignoramuses.

 

 

 

I also thought that was weird and even ridiculous.  What was the point?  I'm increasingly thinking the writers need to put down the crack pipe.

Maybe he wasn't sure of the dozen forks was the right one to use?  There was a shot of the multitude of silverware around the plate.

[Kitla]

In episode 3 (both broadcast and On Demand), PBS bleeped an entire line of dialogue. Alice and Leena were walking past the cemetery:

Alice: Tell me, where do the children come from?

Leena: Most are left with the church as babies, and the church brings them to us.

Alice: They're orphans?

Leena: No, they have mixed blood. And so no place, no family.

During the awkward silence, the camera is at their backs—but it's obvious that Leena is speaking. The camera cuts to their faces and Alice turns to look at Leena, who says the next line.

I could tell something was wrong, so I rewound and turned on the closed captions, in case it was just a glitch in my cable reception. The line is missing in the captions, but I Googled and found a transcript.

I know PBS edits all their UK shows, but this was glaringly obvious—and changes the viewers' understanding of what's going on.

 

This notion that mixed blood children have "no place, no family" in India is misleading.  There was and is a whole segment of Indian society, the Anglo-Indians, who are mixed race.  During the Raj, they tended socially to be somewhere between the pure "native" population and the white Europeans, and even now they play a major role in certain economic sectors, e.g., the railways. The writers of this show appear to have done NO research on Indian history or culture.  None.  A "fatherless" mixed blood kid might end up abandoned to a mission, and among higher caste Hindus and socially higher strata of the British an illegitimate child, mixed blood or not, would have been scandalous to say the least, but being mixed blood, in an of itself, didn't necessarily mean a person would be an abandoned outcast. 

Maybe he wasn't sure of the dozen forks was the right one to use?  There was a shot of the multitude of silverware around the plate.

 

That seems like a more plausible explanation than the dietary one.

[Kitla]

 

I think one of the problems with how this show plays in the U.S. is that it assumes a level of familiarity with Indian history/society that even most educated Americans lack.

 

Most British people lack it, too, including the writers of the show, as they seem to demonstrate in every episode.

 

[Milz]

Aafrin is a Parsi (like the late, great Freddie Mercury). I had to look up Parsi cuisine. It seems like there are no dietary restrictions (and it sounds delicious!) http://parsicuisine.com/recipes/and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi_cuisine