Lea Michele/Rachel Berry

[tom87]

Rewrites.   SMH.

[camussie]

I am not rewriting anything so need for you to shake your head.  Jesse clearly "rigged" the solo competition in Rachel's favor in season 2 and Rachel didn't say a word about it even as it was clear he was rigging it in her favor.  Now to her credit she didn't argue when Will called it off either but the point remains she didn't step in when Jesse was doing it in the first place.  That is why I don't think he would be a good romantic match for her.  He would be someone who would re-enforce her self involved diva tendencies, which are very funny, but also aren't a good recipe for having a successful long term career or friendships off the stage.  

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[tom87]

I am not rewriting anything.  Jesse clearly "rigged" the solo competition in Rachel's favor in season 2 and Rachel didn't say a word about it even as it was clear he was rigging it in her favor.  Now to her credit she didn't argue when Will called it off either but the point remains she didn't step in when Jesse was doing it in the first place.  That is why I don't think he would be a good romantic match for her.  He would be someone who would re-enforce her self involved diva tendencies, which are very funny, but also aren't a good recipe for having a successful long term career or friendships off the stage.  

 

IMO  by saying it was unfairly given to her is a bit of rewrite since it never was really given to her.   Mr Shue made the decision to do the fair thing and not give it to anyone.

 

I guess Rachel could have also chimed in after Mercedes admitted to not practicing but I do not think that would have been helpful in any way.  Mr Shue should have been handling Jessie not Rachel.

 

Also as  Jessie has had some major set bets maybe he has matured.  So who knows they could be ok together.

Edited February 1, 2015 by tom87

[camussie]

Sure it was Will's job to handle Jesse and he did but I also think Rachel should have wanted that solo fair and square instead of being fine with Jesse rigging it in her favor and all indications were she was going to go along with that if Will hadn't stopped it. Frankly I think the second he used a racist stereotype to run down Mercedes performance they all should have been outraged most especially the one who was clearly benefiting from his actions.   

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[Danielle87]

I felt like the show always made it clear that while Jesse would be a great co-star for Rachel they were much too similar to make a good romantic match,  That being with him would have her being nothing more than the ultimate self-involved diva post haste.  Never was this more clear when she stood by silent while he insulted all of her Glee friends (including using a racist stereotype by calling Mercedes lazy which is why I loathe Jesse St. James to this day) to unfairly hand her the solo.

 

All of that said I would take him over Sam in a heartbeat.  

 

Considering that Mercedes retorted to Jesse about how she doesn't have to practice, I think him calling her lazy was the truth.

 

Jesse was in the Glee club for a decent amount of time in season two, so I'm sure he saw her lack of effort/drive back then in terms of rehearsing.

 

And I personally prefer Rachel self involved, which is why I've always rooted for her and Jesse. The "caring about others Rachel" had her putting men before herself/career, no thanks.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Danielle87

[camussie]

Except before that very episode Mercedes was always seen as one to put in effort.  She was one of the ones not slacking off in "Laryngitis."  Also Jesse cited her lack of choreography as a reason she was lazy (which is what I felt Mercedes responded to) yet Rachel and Santana had no choreography either while Kurt had just the barest hint of some.  Am I to believe that they all rehearsed choreography and Mercedes didn't?   My take on it was they all were park and bark, save maybe Kurt.  The whole thing was offensive and I stand by my opinion that it was the clearest indicator that Jesse would not be a good romantic match for Rachel long term.  

 

And I personally prefer Rachel self involved, which is why I've always rooted for her and Jesse. The "caring about others Rachel" had her putting men before herself/career, no thanks.

 

 

I think there is a line there and Jesse pushes her over to the wrong side of it.  I think she would become so focused on herself she wouldn't care about  the production itself.   In fact we have already seen how Rachel being a completely self involved diva tanks her career.  She threw "Funny Girl" to the side to pursue something bigger and better and it blew up in her face.  That seems to be a similar path to Jesse's who too returned to Ohio and ended up coaching his show choir because he blew his other opportunities.  

 

Also I never said anything about putting a man before her career.  I said it would essentially lead to her being friendless which I think would make her miserable.   I thought it was extremely clear in "Opening Night" that what made her success special was that she sharing it with a group of people she loved.  That what made her special was not merely her talent but being part of this group of friends.

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[Danielle87]

I see where you are coming from. However, for me considering how sexist this show is, I will root for the one relationship where you have the guy encouraging her career, drive, and ambition. He's never shamed her for it the way everyone else has so out of the options on the show, he's the best bet. Even when people like Finn or Puck were supportive, they would either shame her/have the higher moral ground (Finn, her friendship with Kurt) or slip in a dig (Puck).

 

Really, I would love it if the show would end with Rachel single with Jesse as her replacement BFF with Kurt off far away somewhere unknown with Blaine, but I'm not the shows target audience so I know she'll have to be paired off with someone unfortunately so if I have to chose, I'll chose Jesse.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Danielle87

[tom87]

Rachel should have wanted that solo fair and square

 

Rachel also knew Mr Shue was the final judge and she heard the applause and his critique so she may have felt she deserve it.  I guess she could have quit but that wouldn't have been unfair to her.   I guess she could have told Mr Shue but Mr Shue heard everything Jessie said anyway.  Seems to me Mr Shue figure it out without being reminded by Rachel and the others telling him Jessie was "rigging" something he didn't have the final control over.  I get what you are saying Jessie was trying to stack the deck. I just don't agree Rachel  needed to say something becasue Mr Shue had that information already.   If she went to Mr Shue he would have just said he was making the decision anyway.

 

 

Well Mercedes didn't have anything else in her repertoire for Sectionals.  She didn't want to put in any effort when they did their first mash up.  She was taking credit for Rachel's mash up idea.  Mercedes wanted songs (defying gravity) to be rearranged to fit her instead  of going outside her comfort zone.   So sure could stretch some times Mercedes wasn't all in.

 

Do I think she was lazy no, but did she go that  extra mile,  not so sure.

Edited February 1, 2015 by tom87

[Advance35]

And I personally prefer Rachel self involved, which is why I've always rooted for her and Jesse. The "caring about others Rachel" had her putting men before herself/career, no thanks.

 

 

IA and didn't the writers make a point of Rachel ALWAYS doing everything to the 50th power back then.    The rest of the originals were content to do NOTHING while Rachel came up with the "Push It" routine for their debut at McKinnley.   Even in "Vitamin D" Rachel was storyboarding and choreographing the "Halo" performance while Britney, Mercedes and the others were doing their nails and not taking it seriously.   Rachel has always been shown to be pathologically committed to her endeavors  (at least during those years).    And I think Rachel went along with Jesse because she and he, thinks/thought she was more talented than the others.   No different from Santana reminding Rachel, that she's not as hot as she is, or Quinn's consistent superiority.

 

Though Jesse's return does pose a problem for me since I've really become attached to Sam's Abs.   I guess I'll go with Jesse as I think he's been the overall best match Rachel's ever had.   He's smarter and better looking than Finn, and he's got a cunning and cut-throat mentality/ambition that Sam lacks.

 

I'll forever mourn that the writers didn't have Rachel Berry join Vocal Adrenaline and operate as an antagonist to ND during the latter of S2 and S3.

[Hana Chan]

Rachel has always been one to take any advantage, no matter how unfair it might be to others. Whether it was trying to keep someone that might prove a challenge to her from joining ND or setting up circumstances to benefit herself (even if it comes at the expense of someone else), it is rare that we don't see her putting herself first. Jesse was working with Schu, who was taking Jesse's word very seriously since Jesse did come from a four time Nationals winning team. That carried a lot of weight.

 

When Jesse met with Rachel prior to the auditions in Funeral, he didn't tell her outright that he was rigging the audition in Rachel's favor, but he was intimating it very strongly that she didn't have anything to worry about and Rachel smiled. To me, the message was very clear and received. And while Jesse didn't get final word, he was certainly was making it clear that in his "expert opinion", no one but Rachel should be taken seriously for the Nationals solo spot. He was very obviously overly critical of Santana, Kurt and Mercedes, but Rachel got nothing but compliments. And given that Rachel had dated Jesse, he could hardly be considered an unbiased party.

[tom87]

No one is debating that. But the point was all Rachel could do was tell Mr Shue stuff Mr Shue already knew. He knew what Jessie had said. In the end Mr Shue did what he thought was right.  The was no reason for Rachel to say anything after that.

[camussie]

Rachel could have done something else - tell Jesse off for running her friends down like that in an effort to hand her the solo.  That was my issue with her reaction.  That she was silent as he became more and more insulting towards her friends.  That she remained silent is also why I always question why people say Jesse empowers her.  In many of their interactions she seems to be hesitant to stand up to him.  If they ended up together I could easily picture a future where he manages her career to great success, for a while until it blows up due to her making every production all about her, but she ends up sad and isolated from everyone and everything but him.  To me that would fly in the face of what Rachel seemed to want in the very first episode - to be a part of something special.  Of course on the surface she was talking about a winning show choir but I felt the clear subtext was that she wanted to find a group of friends to be a part of.  

 

Let me put it another way - if Jesse was with Rachel when Will called as they were reading her reviews he would have scoffed that she said let's not talk about me right now, tell me about the baby.  Yet I thought that was one of Rachel's shining moments.  She had undisputed professional success that she was clearly proud of it (as she should have been) but she also realized that there was time later to revel in her success.  At that moment hearing about her friend's and mentor's baby was more important.  

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[Hana Chan]

Just because Jesse's efforts to tilt the auditions in Rachel's favor didn't pan out doesn't change the fact that Rachel knew what was going on and not once said that she wanted the auditions to be fair to everyone, no matter how much she wanted the solo. She didn't say once that she wanted to prove herself fairly. She knew that the game was rigged her in favor and went along with it without any hint that she was at all bothered that the other members of her choir were going into the auditions (the first actual auditions for any competition spots ND held) and would have no realistic chance.

 

Rachel's big challenge as a character has always been to balance out her personal ambition with the well-being of the group around her. She wanted genuine friends, but she also always had a very hard time dealing with anyone else being given focus or prominence over her. It went beyond healthy ambition. She had a bad habit that has never resolved of seeing anything she was involved with as an extension of herself and that they existed to serve her. Remember WSS and she bemoaned how "her" production was facing cancelation from lack of funds? It carried over into Funny Girl, where her focus was about her being a big star and that the show seemed to exist only to further her career ambitions (with her having no responsibility or obligation to see her commitment through the instant something interesting popped up on her radar).

Edited February 1, 2015 by Hana Chan

[Casual Viewing]

It's all going to come down to whether the writers have had Jesse continue to mature over the past couple of years he's been off our screens or regress.

The Jesse we last saw showed a vulnerability and a bit of humility. He was putting on a front and Rachel saw through it to his anxiety and his vulnerability. His approach to Carmen had none of his showmanship or bravado.

However, with these writers they are quite likely to regress Jesse back to being an idiot and an ass if it suits their current plotline.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Casual Viewing

[tom87]

It's all going to come down to whether the writers have had Jesse continue to mature over the past couple of years he's been off our screens or regress.

The Jesse we last saw showed a vulnerability and a bit of humility. He was putting on a front and Rachel saw through it. His approach to Carmen had none of his showmanship or bravado.

However, with these writers they are quite likely to regress Jesse back to being an idiot and an ass if it suits their current plotline.

 

I hope they can maintain a bit of arrogance with a mature spin though.

Edited February 1, 2015 by tom87

[Casual Viewing]

I hope they can maintain a bit of arrogance with a mature spin though.

Oh for sure! I love Jesse's snark! He just needs to show he can also care about other people besides himself and Rachel. He was raised in a dysfunctional family so he has some hurdles to overcome in getting to that point.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Casual Viewing

[Advance35]

Oh for sure! I love Jesse's snark! He just needs to show he can also care about other people besides himself and Rachel. He was raised in a dysfunctional family so he has some hurdles to overcome in getting to that point.

 

 

My aversion to the "Rachel needs a sense of team spirit" thing is, everyone else in ND has always been out for themselves as well.    If Kurt, Mercedes or Santana had someone in their corner judging the competition, do you think any of them would have spoken up about "fair play."

 

Santana joined the Glee Club with the intention of tearing it apart from the inside out and frequently took steps and actions to undermine the group as a whole, so did Quinn and Britney, why should Rachel concern herself with everyone when nobody else does?    It's why I've always reveled in Rachel Berry being underhanded and self-involved (when the writers don't force her to be a doormat to the rest of the club).    Finn was a weak insect who would always cave when the majority wasn't happy.

 

I thought Jesse encouraging Rachel to always be her own biggest advocate was a good thing.   And I also always really liked that he detested the other members of ND, especially Kurt and Mercedes.   Finn was always middle of the road for the most part,  Jesse was always clearly in her corner when conflict with outside sources would arise.

[camussie]

If Mercedes, Santana, or Kurt did the same thing in "Funeral" I would have criticized them too but they didn't.  Rachel did.  I also think there is a difference between Jesse encouraging Rachel to be her own biggest advocate and Jesse encouraging Rachel to push her ambitions to the point where they would be detrimental to the team/production and her friendships (which I think Rachel has grown to cherish so she would be pretty miserable without them).    From what we have seen of Jesse he often falls on the other side of that line.  Now maybe he has matured to the point where he isn't so myopic about what it takes to succeed and if so I could tentatively welcome a Jess/Rachel pairing.  

 

As for Finn always caving that isn't true.  For example the majority of the team didn't want to help Artie in "Wheels" and Finn agreed with Will they should.  In "Journey to Regionals" all of the team, including Rachel, were ready to give up but Finn was the only one who said we can't give up. In "Funeral" the majority of the team didn't want to support Sue but Finn still pushed for it.  

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[Hana Chan]

Rachel, unfortunately, has a long history of putting herself ahead of the team. There is a big difference between looking out for your own interests and ambitions and doing it to the exclusion of all other considerations. Rachel, whether some like it or not, was a part of a team. A very prominent and highly featured part of the team, but still a single part of a whole. It was the same with Funny Girl. She didn't see the show as anything other than a showcase for herself and not a production that she had signed on to an enormous commitment to. That she had an obligation to the producers and the rest of the cast and crew, not that they were obligated to be there just to give her a stage.

 

Rachel was a hard character to actually like at times. I get why some find her entertaining at her most self-centered and outlandish, but I found myself growing irritated with her constant instinct to be out for her self often to the detriment of others. That she would quit ND over a song that she claimed for herself, or that she couldn't support the group graciously if she wasn't the one featured. The fact that she never learned that not everything is just about her and her ambitions is what eventually lead her to quit Funny Girl and then be left with nothing.

[Advance35]

If Mercedes, Santana, or Kurt did the same thing in "Funeral" I would have criticized them too but they didn't.  Rachel did.  I also think there is a difference between Jesse encouraging Rachel to be her own biggest advocate and Jesse encouraging Rachel to push her ambitions to the point where they would be detrimental to the team and her friendships.

 

 

Again I ask how does this make Rachel different from just about every other member of ND.  Was there anyone in that group who wasn't willing to do something detrimental to the group as a whole or individual members, to get what they wanted.   I closed the book on "Team Spirit" when Santana went at Rachel with all the finesse of a frenzied back alley stabbing (in Special Education) yet Rachel got yelled at and Santana got a featured performance at Sectionals.   Along with Quinn (whom also had an agenda that frequently worked against ND), if anything I thought the show displayed that Rachel was a little too "merciful" and not mean enough to get ahead.   And that she needed a steelier core in order to make it.

 

I've discussed this same point consistently in other threads but I don't think Rachel SHOULD value anyone else's happiness and success as much as she does her own.   Certainly not while she attended McKinnely, since I don't doubt anyone in ND would have run her down like a rabbit (Santana did) if they thought it would have been to their own benefit.

 

As for Finn being weak, I mean't in relation to Rachel.   They kissed (inappropriately at Regionals in S2) and Finn was huddled in the back while Santana had to be restrained from going after Rachel physically.   And of course than hiding in the Library when they got back to school till Rachel came to put him back together.  Oy.

[tom87]

or the writers had her do a 180 to get her back to Lima.

 

But whatever.  

[camussie]

I've discussed this same point consistently in other threads but I don't think Rachel SHOULD value anyone else's happiness and success as much as she does her own.   Certainly not while she attended McKinnely, since I don't doubt anyone in ND would have run her down like a rabbit (Santana did) if they thought it would have been to their own benefit.

 

 

The problem is her seeing it as a zero sum game, something that Jesse has re-enforced in the past.  When the team succeeded Rachel did too.  I have no doubt it was the combination of "Its all Coming Back to Me Now" ( a solo number) and "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" (a duet/group number) that got Rachel into NYADA.  For that matter she wouldn't have  had a second bite at that apple had it not been for Tina putting her own ambitions aside (something Mike annoying and uncharacteristically encouraged her to do).

 

Sure others were also myopically focused on their success at the expense of the team and I have freely criticized them for that .  For example Brittany should have been thrown out of ND after she leaked the set list to Sue and Quinn and Puck should have caught a lot more grief for their baby lie that affected not only Finn but Will.  I never liked the "The Troubletones" got rewarded for leaving ND by getting promised a number in their remaining competitions.   Still all of them being wrong doesn't make Rachel right.  

 

As for Finn being weak, I mean't in relation to Rachel.   They kissed (inappropriately at Regionals in S2) and Finn was huddled in the back while Santana had to be restrained from going after Rachel physically.   And of course than hiding in the Library when they got back to school till Rachel came to put him back together.  Oy.

 

 

In "The Rhodes not Taken" when Rachel came back in time for them to do "Somebody to Love" it was Finn who said she can learn the choreography when others were doubtful.  In "Showmance" when Rachel said she had an idea about what they could do at the assembly Finn said let her speak.  When Rachel's world came crashing down because she choked her audition, Finn didn't run or hide.  He was right there supporting her and in fact helped keep her focused right before she went onto the Nationals stage.  

 

As for Santana going after Rachel in "New York" she was yelling at both of them and neither one spoke up for the other because in the whacked out Glee universe their kiss, not the fact that ND just put together a number the night before all while their coach was MIA, was the reason they placed 12th. (it will never not annoy me that neither Rachel nor Finn pointed that out all so their kiss could be scapegoated for the loss).  

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[tom87]

Rhodes not taken: While I don't agree Finn always caved but in  the Rhodes not Taken it was the least her could do after manipulating  her feelings.   Sorry that was pretty bad.  No one ever held that against Finn though.   I mean sure he did it for the "baby" but he really took advantage of her feelings and got off easy.

 

In the meanwhile the glee kids probably never knew why Rachel came back and left again so suddenly making her look even worse.  They probably never knew about Mr Shue's weird ambiguous talk in the ballet studio either. 

 

The thing it Rachel often does things for multiply reasons and then the show often highlights the part that was for her gain and of course those who hate her only see that too.

[KatWay]

I'll say that as entertaining as I find Jesse, I also always felt he was too similar to Rachel to work out in the long run. And I think when push came to shove, he'd choose himself over her. That said, I'd love to watch a buddy comedy with them.

 

But hell, I'd also take him as Rachel's endgame if it spares me Samchel.

 

I don't think Finn was a "weak insect". He was regressed by the writers to learn the same lesson over and over again (stand up for the others, be a leader), the same way Rachel has to learn over and over again that she needs to consider other people as well. Because the writers don't know more than one storyline. Finn, especially in the beginning, was overly concerned with his reputation and social standing, but he did support her and he always admired her talent and ambition.

[Danielle87]

Again I ask how does this make Rachel different from just about every other member of ND.  Was there anyone in that group who wasn't willing to do something detrimental to the group as a whole or individual members, to get what they wanted.   I closed the book on "Team Spirit" when Santana went at Rachel with all the finesse of a frenzied back alley stabbing (in Special Education) yet Rachel got yelled at and Santana got a featured performance at Sectionals.   Along with Quinn (whom also had an agenda that frequently worked against ND), if anything I thought the show displayed that Rachel was a little too "merciful" and not mean enough to get ahead.   And that she needed a steelier core in order to make it.

 

I've discussed this same point consistently in other threads but I don't think Rachel SHOULD value anyone else's happiness and success as much as she does her own.   Certainly not while she attended McKinnely, since I don't doubt anyone in ND would have run her down like a rabbit (Santana did) if they thought it would have been to their own benefit.

 

As for Finn being weak, I mean't in relation to Rachel.   They kissed (inappropriately at Regionals in S2) and Finn was huddled in the back while Santana had to be restrained from going after Rachel physically.   And of course than hiding in the Library when they got back to school till Rachel came to put him back together.  Oy.

 

 

There was no difference IMO. Which is why I've personally never had a problem with Rachel being selfish. I would say most of Rachel's selfish moments (toward ND) ended in season 3. Before that she was selfish, but they treated her horribly back then, so who cared how they got screwed over. After everyone rallied behind her with the Nationals performance at the end of season 3 and her relationships with ND formed into genuine friendships, I really haven't seen any moments with Rachel screwing over her friends. Free free to correct me cause my memory of these past two seasons is admittedly fuzzy. I will admit that I am biased though because I believe her relationships with Finn and Kurt ruined the character. I do think her friendship with Santana was done right as Rachel was not afraid of Santana and would call her out on her crap (and slap the taste out of her mouth, when need be).

Edited February 2, 2015 by Danielle87

[CMH1981]

I have a question in regards to Rachel's run in Funny Girl on Broadway...would she be eligible for a Tony nomination or was her run too short plus the fact that everyone knows she abandoned the role to try and become a tv star torpedo that? I know that you have to do so many performances to be eligible for a nomination, but this is Glee so all the rules are out the window.

[Pink ranger]

Since the Tony awards are normaly held in mid April and season 6 kicked off early in the following new school year in fall then we would have probably found out allready if Rachel archived anything at the Tonys.

[Sara2009]

Since the Tony awards are normaly held in mid April and season 6 kicked off early in the following new school year in fall then we would have probably found out allready if Rachel

archived anything at the Tonys.

The nominations are in April, but the ceremony is in June.

[wayne67]

 Before that she was selfish, but they treated her horribly back then, so who cared how they got screwed over. After everyone rallied behind her with the Nationals performance at the end of season 3 and her relationships with ND formed into genuine friendships, I really haven't seen any moments with Rachel screwing over her friends. Free free to correct me cause my memory of these past two seasons is admittedly fuzzy. I will admit that I am biased though because I believe her relationships with Finn and Kurt ruined the character. I do think her friendship with Santana was done right as Rachel was not afraid of Santana and would call her out on her crap (and slap the taste out of her mouth, when need be).

 

There was that time during the Funny Girl where Rachel wanted to get Santana fired from a presumably well paying gig that provided promotion for her show because it would shift focus from herself.

 

Which you could argue was about Santana previously working against Rachel and Glee in the start but becomes irrelevant when Rachel didn't want anyone understudying for her at all.

 

Rachel is a diva whenever she gets the chance at fame and glory or any sort of success. She treats her friends like servants and every opportunity for self aggrandizement she takes.

 

I'd like her more if she ever accepted responsibility for her mistakes or bad choices but with her referring to New York failures as "everything falling apart" as if she didn't decide to leave Broadway and Nyada when she thought she had something better, I just cant. There is nothing wrong with being out for yourself as long as you don't undermine the thing you're working for.

 

Rachel undermined her schooling by thinking she was better than her dance teacher, ignoring the advice of a season professional ( at singing? dancing?) the Nyada principal by thinking she knew better than her about fame.  She undermined the Funny Girl show by being difficult about having an understudy, a stock standard arrangement to protect a show from failure as well failing to honor her contract and going behind her employers back to seek other employment. If she was honest to her director about seeking other opportunities he might have released her from her contract or used it to promote the show but she lied about being sick, interviewed for another job and then bailed on the show completely because she was BORED.

 

I could get past all of her Diva qualities and self destructive behavior if she didn't constantly require propping by her friends in order to do anything. The constant Rachel propping gets old. Glee if you want her to succeed let her seek out her own opportunities instead of needing Mercedes to come around and organise an audition for her and harass her into attending. Being told someone is talented is not sufficient motivation for me to root for their success. They must learn from their mistakes and seek out learning opportunities to improve otherwise talent becomes an excuse to stagnate.

 

Rachel seems to lack enough agency to be interesting. She had to be convinced to date Sam. How about Rachel decides who she wants to date Glee/Mercedes ? Rachel should try doing something hard for herself like looking beyond her highschool for dating prospects, get out from that incestuous choir room and carve out her own place in the world.

 

*sigh* Rachel could have been so interesting and yet she's not.  JMO

Edited February 8, 2015 by wayne67

[Myrna123]

I feel like sometimes RIB took Rachel from this over the top, stop-at-nothing character and turned her into a dress up doll. The girl who framed Sandy Ryerson to get him fired so she could be the star of the glee club wouldn't be hunkered down in the McKinley High School Lima Ohio teachers lounge weeping into her coffee because she's too scared to try out for a Broadway show after her big chance was so unfairly torn from her grasp. This Rachel wears the hell out if a short skirt but that's about all there is to her.

[Hana Chan]

Rachel's lack of any sense of personal responsibility (in that her actions have an effect and consequences) is something that has frustrated me for a long time. She has always seen the world as being against her and was blind to how her own behavior often brought about the negative reactions that she so often railed against. Treating the other member of ND as her personal session singers back when ND was getting off the ground would certainly cause those like Mercedes and Kurt to be more aggressive about challenging her and less concerned about her feelings, but it fed into Rachel's impression of everyone being against her. And it wasn't something that ever got better. Anyone who disagreed with her or challenged her in any way needed to be beaten into submission. No one could know more than she did regardless of their own greater experience in the real world. They could be disregarded because in Rachel's view, anyone who didn't agree with her (or at least come around to support her after the briefest of protestations) was an enemy who stood between Rachel and what she wanted.

 

So now Rachel is reaping the consequences of her decisions and she still just doesn't get it. All season she's spoken about how she "lost" Broadway and her dreams "fell apart". She acts as if it's the tv show failure that is at fault. Not once has any of her enablers asked her why she quit a successful show that she'd been dreaming of performing in all her life just because someone dangled a shiny new prize in front of her. And the show seems to have taken on a concerted effort to insulate Rachel from accepting any responsibility that it was entirely her actions and her decisions that put her in this spot. Maybe it's because they want the audience to feel sympathy for Rachel and want to see her succeed again at the end, but anyone who's watched the past two seasons will remember Rachel's unreasonable, self-entitled behavior and how she completely disregarded all well-meaning advice that she was making short-sighted and reckless choices that in the end would only hurt her. To be continuously glossing over Rachel's behavior and choices is not just poor storytelling, but dishonest as well.

 

And the show is doubling down on Rachel as a victim of unfair fate who needs to be returned to her rightful place in the universe by making it the mission of pretty much every character in the show to make it happen. Mercedes is trotted back strictly to arrange this improbable audition for someone who rightly would be considered unemployable in professional theater (as well to clear the way to a new love interest). The members of ND (past and present) dance around to boost her spirits because Rachel is throwing herself and epic pity party. But nothing of Rachel taking ownership of her behavior, good or bad. Rachel isn't going to succeed because she' hard working and driven and will fight for her dreams. She's going to get it served up on a silver platter with barely lifting a finger. It's impossible for me to root for a character like this.

[Casual Viewing]

I'd like her more if she ever accepted responsibility for her mistakes or bad choices but with her referring to New York failures as "everything falling apart" as if she didn't decide to leave Broadway and Nyada when she thought she had something better, I just cant. There is nothing wrong with being out for yourself as long as you don't undermine the thing you're working for.

 

Rachel undermined her schooling by thinking she was better than her dance teacher, ignoring the advice of a season professional ( at singing? dancing?) the Nyada principal by thinking she knew better than her about fame. 

 

I could get past all of her Diva qualities and self destructive behavior if she didn't constantly require propping by her friends in order to do anything. The constant Rachel propping gets old. Glee if you want her to succeed let her seek out her own opportunities instead of needing Mercedes to come around and organise an audition for her and harass her into attending.Being told someone is talented is not sufficient motivation for me to root for their success. They must learn from their mistakes and seek out learning opportunities to improve otherwise talent becomes an excuse to stagnate.

 

Rachel seems to lack enough agency to be interesting. She had to be convinced to date Sam. How about Rachel decides who she wants to date Glee/Mercedes ? Rachel should try doing something hard for herself like looking beyond her highschool for dating prospects, get out from that incestuous choir room and carve out her own place in the world.

 

*sigh* Rachel could have been so interesting and yet she's not.  JMO

 

       RIB totally failed in showing how someone can be ambitious, confront failure and learn from their mistakes and succeed. Again bad writing sabatoges an interesting character and premise.

 

So now Rachel is reaping the consequences of her decisions and she still just doesn't get it. All season she's spoken about how she "lost" Broadway and her dreams "fell apart". She acts as if it's the tv show failure that is at fault. Not once has any of her enablers asked her why she quit a successful show that she'd been dreaming of performing in all her life just because someone dangled a shiny new prize in front of her. And the show seems to have taken on a concerted effort to insulate Rachel from accepting any responsibility that it was entirely her actions and her decisions that put her in this spot. Maybe it's because they want the audience to feel sympathy for Rachel and want to see her succeed again at the end, but anyone who's watched the past two seasons will remember Rachel's unreasonable, self-entitled behavior and how she completely disregarded all well-meaning advice that she was making short-sighted and reckless choices that in the end would only hurt her. To be continuously glossing over Rachel's behavior and choices is not just poor storytelling, but dishonest as well.

 

And the show is doubling down on Rachel as a victim of unfair fate who needs to be returned to her rightful place in the universe by making it the mission of pretty much every character in the show to make it happen. Mercedes is trotted back strictly to arrange this improbable audition for someone who rightly would be considered unemployable in professional theater (as well to clear the way to a new love interest). The members of ND (past and present) dance around to boost her spirits because Rachel is throwing herself and epic pity party. But nothing of Rachel taking ownership of her behavior, good or bad. Rachel isn't going to succeed because she' hard working and driven and will fight for her dreams. She's going to get it served up on a silver platter with barely lifting a finger. It's impossible for me to root for a character like this.

 

        I really wanted to see Rachel admit her stupidity and how she torpedoed her own success.  I didn't want to see everyone else be her cheering squad and agents in her getting another chance. They should have given her some tough love i.e. be supportative, but point out that it was her decisions and attitude that caused it and get her to think about how not to repeat her mistakes. It's fine for her to feel insecure and depressed for a period of time when she killed her own career and dreams, but only if she evaluates where she went wrong, owns up to her own bad decisions and then picks herself up and works hard to get what she lost back.

 

The Rachel Berry drive, dreams and work hard no matter what,  seemed to have disappeared somewhere in season 2 and never really returned.  When she went from “my dreams are bigger than that and they’re bigger than you” to that moment when she said to Finn “what if your dreams are bigger than mine?” was when I knew for sure the Rachel Berry I loved was long gone.

 

Edited February 8, 2015 by Casual Viewing

[wayne67]

I just remembered Rachel refusing to give a small child and a mother who trekked out from hours away a dog because she wanted it for a publicity shot.

 

Rachel is not a victim. I'd wish they'd stop pretending that Rachel isn't guilty of terrible decisions and behaviour, it's incredibly annoying. It's like they want the people watching this season to ignore the previous season and accept the nonsense that Rachel lost out on Nyada and Broadway because of fate. Nope not buying it, it's cause and effect of the story they were telling, they can't retcon it away that easily.

 

Is it just me or does anyone else get creeped out when these people refer to themselves as a family ? With the amount of bodily fluids these people exchange can't they just say they're really good friends and that be enough?

 

*sigh * I'm not sure why I'm so annoyed that Rachel has become so unlikeable. This is the girl who sent a potential upstager off to a crack house just so she wouldn't have to work harder. I guess it's more the principle of the thing. Rachel could have been so entertaining if she OWNED her selfishness but instead everyone goes on about her talent and fail to note her terrible personality or behavior as the thing holding her back most.

 

Which I find sad after they went to effort at Nyada when her dance instructor shared with her how she ended up being a washout even with all her TALENT. She lashed out foolishly and had to pay for that mistake. Rachel hasn't paid for her mistakes. Hell she doesn't even acknowledge she made any. I can't support that kind of nonsense.

 

Also hasn't it only been 2 or 3 weeks since she formed this new Glee club with her own money? Did she consider that going for an audition while she's supposed to be mentoring these raw recruits for Sectionals sends across a terrible message to the other teams? Then again she knows both major competitors team leaders so I guess it's all moot anyway as the NND will probably win even though they haven't really had any time to gel as a team of 12... Oh wait still not 12 members. Wouldn't it be nice if Rachel had spent some of this episode looking for other recruits?

 

Oh well I'm sure a solution will appear at the last minute to save Rachel from having to bother. UGH

Edited February 8, 2015 by wayne67

[phoenixrising]

Unpopular opinion. While I don't totally disagree with the points made here, I actually am sympathetic to Rachel right now. I guess I'm not interpreting it the same way. I think she KNOWS she messed up, and I do think she's regretting her moronic choices. Perhaps this is just me finding it so obvious she screwed up that I'm looking beyond the word choice, but whatever, if this is how I have to enjoy the show, so be it. 

 

That, and right now, her character is pretty much the only one who has anything outside of relationship drama going on with her. Even though I've said elsewhere I am mainly watching for Brittana right now, I do think it's crappy that this show has nothing else to do beside irrelevant things or relationship drama (which is honestly irrelevant too). 

[Hana Chan]

That, and right now, her character is pretty much the only one who has anything outside of relationship drama going on with her. Even though I've said elsewhere I am mainly watching for Brittana right now, I do think it's crappy that this show has nothing else to do beside irrelevant things or relationship drama (which is honestly irrelevant too). 

 

And that's what makes my frustration with Rachel even more profound. Her storyline is the only one that exists outside of its "endgame" relationship (with the sole exception of Will, who is being set up to return to McKinley). If getting her back on the path to Broadway is going to be the centerpiece of the season, then it should amount to a lot more than her feeling sorry for herself her "lost" dreams and show some real introspection and soul searching. Hell, she's spent more time worrying over these new feelings for Sam than she did trying to figure out where she went wrong (not where things went wrong).

 

And I can't even really blame that TV producer for luring her away from her show with the prospective prize of a bigger audience and greater fame. Rachel had already met with an agent looking how to translate her newfound success into bigger opportunities before that producer showed up. She had barely given herself a chance to savor her achievement before started looking further afield (and showed deep dissatisfaction with being trapped in Funny Girl when it looked like those opportunities might not be as forthcoming as she would hope for). Until Rachel acknowledges that her situation is due entirely to her overreaching, and then do the real work to try to fix things (first by fixing herself), I just can't care about her ever achieving her goals again.

[caracas1914]

"You First" by Lea Michele will be released on October 27, 2015

    You First: Journal Your Way to Your Best Life

    Pages: 224

    Price: $17.99 (Hardcover)

 

[Myrna123]

Dear Diary,

Ryan Murphy is such a revolutionary genius, I don't understand how his neck supports a head with such an enormous brain inside it.  Here's hoping Scream Queens is as epic and amazing as Glee!  XoX LM

[Hana Chan]

I just can't... she's not even trying at this point.

[tom87]

Haha let it go people.  YRID!

[Myrna123]

Haha let it go people.  YRID!

Google couldn't help:  What does yrid mean ?

Sorry, we could not find any definition for yrid .

We found the following users submitted definitions for yrid :

1. Yealm Roiled Intersect Drouthier

2. Yeomen Radiations Isabella Despotisms

3. Yucker Reliable Impedes Decors

4. Yanked Refulgence Inceded Defenses

5. Yblent Retted Instigator Diazos

6. Yell Repeating Impugning Diatomist

[caracas1914]

Fuck if I was Lea Michele I would praise Ryan Murphy constantly.   Someone makes me a star AND hires me for yet another TV series?    One should be so blessed. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by caracas1914

[tom87]

Fuck if I was Lea Michele I would praise Ryan Murphy constantly.   Someone makes me a star AND hires me for yet another TV series?    One should be so blessed. 

Why I do not get why people just can't let it go.  She is doing her thing and everyone else seems to be doing their own thing.

 

Yippee Rachel gets  a few more songs/scenes (as she has since day one) but her character gets crap like eveyone else and doesn't even get to be a hero, fairy god mother  or take the moral high ground.  

 

Lea had  gushed about every project she has done. Not sure why peole act surprised or get ruffled over that all these years later.     Funny when she gushes over thier fav they retweet that shit and make tumbrl post about it.

[Myrna123]

Why I do not get why people just can't let it go.  She is doing her thing and everyone else seems to be doing their own thing.

 

Yippee Rachel gets  a few more songs/scenes (as she has since day one) but her character gets crap like eveyone else and doesn't even get to be a hero, fairy god mother  or take the moral high ground.  

 

Lea had  gushed about every project she has done. Not sure why peole act surprised or get ruffled over that all these years later.     Funny when she gushes over thier fav they retweet that shit and make tumbrl post about it.

There are oodles of things on this planet we don't get.  I don't get why people are all butt hurt when someone reacts with less than gushing admiration for their fave.  This is a board for posting about TV shows and the people in them.  Some of those comments are favorable and some aren't.  Two hundred years ago we'd all be dishing on the semi-royal who allegedly rode through town on her horse and rumor has it you could see her wrist when she reached up to straighten her hood, the strumpet.

[Hana Chan]

I was ragging on her "book". Talk about low hanging fruit.

[caracas1914]

I don't get why people are all butt hurt when someone reacts with less than gushing admiration for their fave.

 

Well not all things boil down to faves/nonfaves IMO.

 

For me, I think it's more that if someone gave me a job, a career changing opportunity,  oodles of money and then gave me  a second opportunity to make more money I would sing their praises.   Constantly.    Unless one is self destructive. 

 

What is Lea suppose to do, spit in Ryan's face? 

 

ETA: So far for 2015, Lea has  signed for another TV series as soon as Glee ends, and another book to published in the fall.  Hey I get not liking her choices, but it's not as if Lea isn't busy lining  up projects.  Which I say Good for her.

Edited February 9, 2015 by caracas1914

[tom87]

Yes looking at post around the glee fandom I certainly see how people can be about  thier favs even frustrated enough to the point the blame at other actors.

Edited February 9, 2015 by tom87

[Myrna123]

 

What is Lea suppose to do, spit in Ryan's face?

The only two options available are sing praises constantly or spit in the face?  There's absolutely no middle ground there that would allow you a little self-respect while still maintaining professional appreciation for your boss?

[tom87]

Well not all things boil down to faves/nonfaves IMO.

 

For me, I think it's more that if someone gave me a job, oodles of money and then gave me  a second opportunity to make more money I would sing their praises.   Constantly.    Unless one is self destructive.

 

What is Lea suppose to do, spit in Ryan's face? 

 

ETA: So far for 2015, Lea has  signed for another TV series as soon as Glee ends, and another book to published in the fall.  Hey I get not liking her choices, but it's not as if Lea isn't busy lined up projects.

You take the opportunities that come your way I bet their is stuff she had tuned down too.   I can't get pressed about a person trying to carve out a career.   

 

The book is of no interst to me (right now)  so I won't buy it, that simple. No reason to knock it either imo.

Edited February 9, 2015 by tom87

[caracas1914]

The only two options available are sing praises constantly or spit in the face?  There's absolutely no middle ground there that would allow you a little self-respect while still maintaining professional appreciation for your boss?

 

 I get that some don't like her style of appreciation, which is gushing I freely admit.  

 

However, I just want to point out that it  is not ONLY for Ryan Murphy, it's for ever project/venture she does.  

Edited February 9, 2015 by caracas1914

[Myrna123]

I think writing a book called Journal Your Way to Your Best Life is every reason and then some to knock.   Knock, knock, knock, knock, knock.

 

What titles were already taken? 

 

How to Craft Your Way to Your Next Vacation

How to Steer Your Golf Cart to Your Sister's Wedding

How to Grate Cheese to Your First Promotion